Walter Isaacson: Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Einstein, Da Vinci & Ben Franklin

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Date: September 10, 2023
Type: YouTube
Source: English
Destinations: en, zh-CN, fr, pt, es
Duration: 2:07:49

Walter Isaacson: Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Einstein, Da Vinci & Ben Franklin...

Multiple sepakers transcription text:

WALTER: I hope with my books I'm saying this isn't a how -to guide, but this is somebody you can walk alongside. You can see Einstein growing up Jewish in Germany. You can see Jennifer Doudna growing up as an outsider or Leonardo da Vinci or Elon Musk in really violent South Africa with a psychologically difficult father. And getting off the train when he goes to anti -apartheid concert with his brother and there's a man with a knife sticking out of his head and they step into the pool of blood and it's sticking on their souls. This causes scars that last the rest of your life. And the question is not how do you avoid getting scarred? It's how do you deal with it?

LEX: The following is a conversation with Walter Isaacson, one of the greatest biography writers ever. Having written incredible books on Albert Einstein, Steve Jobs, Leonardo da Vinci, Jennifer Doudna, Benjamin Franklin, Henry Kissinger, and now a new one on Elon Musk. We talked for hours on and off the mic. I'm sure we'll talk many more times. Walter is a truly special writer, thinker, observer, and human being. I highly recommend people read his new book on Elon. I'm sure there will be short -term controversy, but in the long term I think it will inspire millions of young people, especially with difficult childhoods, with hardship in their surroundings or in their own minds, to take on the hardest problems in the world and to build solutions to those problems, no matter how impossible the odds. In this conversation, Walter and I cover all of his books and use personal stories from them to speak to the bigger principles of striving for greatness in science, in tech, engineering, art, politics, and life. There are many things in the new Elon book that I felt are best saved for when I speak to Elon directly again on this podcast, which will be soon enough. Perhaps it's also good to mention here that my friendships like with Elon, nor any other influence like money, access, fame, power will ever result in me sacrificing my integrity, ever. I do like to celebrate the good in people, to empathize and to understand, but I also like to call people out on their bullshit with respect and with compassion. If I fail, I fail due to a lack of skill, not a lack of integrity. I'll work hard to improve. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Walter Isaacson. What is the role of a difficult childhood in the lives of great men and women, great minds? Is that a requirement? Is it a catalyst or is it just a simple coincidence of fate?

WALTER: Well, it's not a requirement. Some people with happy childhoods who do quite well, but it certainly is true that a lot of really driven people are driven because they're harnessing the demons of their childhood. Even Barack Obama's sentence in his memoirs, which is, I think every successful man is either trying to live up to the expectations of his father or live down the sins of his father. And for Elon, it's especially true because he had both a violent and difficult childhood and a very psychologically problematic father. He's got those demons dancing around in his head and by harnessing them, it's part of the reason that he does riskier, more adventurous, wilder things than maybe I would ever do.

LEX: I've written that Elon talked about his father and that at times it felt like mental torture, the interaction with him during his childhood. Can you describe some of the things you've learned?

WALTER: Yeah, well, Elon and Kimball would tell me that, for example, when Elon got bullied on the playground and one day was pushed down some concrete steps and had his face pummeled so badly that Kimball said, I couldn't really recognize him. I mean, he was in the hospital for almost a week. But when he came home, Elon had to stand in front of his father and his father berated him for more than an hour and said he was stupid and took the side of the person who had beaten him.

LEX: That's probably one of the more traumatic events of Elon's life.

WALTER: Yes. And there's also veld school, which is a sort of paramilitary camp that young South African boys got sent to. And at one point, he was scrawny. He has very bad at picking up social cues and emotional cues. He talks about being Asperger's. And so he gets traumatized at a camp like that. But the second time he went, he'd gotten bigger. He had shot up to almost six feet and he'd learned a little bit of judo. And he realized that if he was getting beaten up, it might hurt him, but he would just punch the person in the nose as hard as possible. So that sense of always punching back has also been ingrained in Elon. I spent a lot of time talking to Errol Musk, his father. Elon doesn't talk to Errol Musk anymore, his father, nor does Kimball. It's been years. And Errol doesn't even have Elon's email. So a lot of times, Errol will be sending me emails. And Errol had one of those Jekyll and Hyde personalities. He was a great mind of engineering and especially material science. I knew how to build a wilderness camp in South Africa using mica and how it would not conduct the heat. But he also would go into these dark periods in which he would just be psychologically abusive. And of course, May Musk says to me, his mother who divorced Errol early on said, the danger for Elon is that he becomes his father. And every now and then you've been with him so much, Lex, and you know him well. He'll even talk to you about the demons, about Diablo dancing in his head. I mean, he gets it, he's self -aware, but you've probably seen him at times where those demons take over and he goes really dark and really quiet. And Grimes says, I can tell a minute or two in advance when demon mode is about to happen. And he'll go a bit dark. I was here at Austin once at dinner with a group. And you could tell suddenly something had triggered him and he was going to go dark. I've watched it in meetings where somebody will say, we can't make that part for less than $200 or no, that's wrong. And he'll berate them. And then he snaps out of it. As you know that too, the huge snap out where suddenly he's showing you a Monty Python skit on his phone and he's joking about things. So I think coming out of the childhood, there were just many facets, maybe even many personalities, the engineering mode, the silly mode, the charismatic mode, the visionary mode, but also the demon in dark mode.

LEX: A quote you cited about Elon really stood out to me. I forget who it was from, but inside the man, he's still there as a child, the child standing in front of his dad.

WALTER: That was Tallulah, his second wife. And she's great. She's an English actress. They've been married twice actually. And Tallulah said that's just him from his childhood. He's a drama addict. Kimball says that as well. And I asked why. And Tallulah said for him, love and family are kind of associated with those psychological torments. And in many ways, he'll channel. I mean, Tallulah would be with him in 2008 when the company was going bankrupt or whatever it may have been or later. And he would be so stressed, he would vomit. And then he would channel things that his father had said, use phrases his father had said to him. And so she told me, deep inside the man is this man child still standing in front of his father.

LEX: To what degree is that true for many of us, do you think?

WALTER: I think it's true, but in many different ways. I'll say something personal, which is I was blessed and perhaps it's a bit of a downside too, with the fact that I had the greatest father you could ever imagine and mother. They were the kindest people you'd ever want to meet. I grew up in a magical place in New Orleans. My dad was an engineer, an electrical engineer. And he was always kind. Perhaps I'm not quite as driven or as crazed. I don't have to prove things. So I get to write about Elon Musk. I get to write about Einstein or Steve Jobs or Leonardo da Vinci, who as you know, was totally torn by demons and had different difficult childhood situations, not even legitimized by his father. So sometimes those of us who are lucky enough to have really gentle, sweet childhood, we grow up with fewer demons, but we grow up with fewer drives and we end up maybe being Boswell and not being Dr. Johnson. We end up being the observer, not being the doer. And so I always respect those who are in the arena.

LEX: You don't see yourself as a man in the arena.

WALTER: I've had a gentle, sweet career and I've got to cover really interesting people, but I've never shot off a rocket that might someday get to Mars. I've never moved us into the air of electric vehicles. I've never stayed up all night on the factory floor. I don't have quite those either the drives or the addiction to risk. I mean, Elon's addicted to risk. He's addicted to adventure. Me, if I see something that's risky, I spend some time calculating, okay, upside down side here. But that's another reason that people like Elon Musk get stuff done and people like me write about the Elon Musk's.

LEX: One other aspect of this, given a difficult childhood, whether it's Elon or DaVinci, I wonder if there's some wisdom, some advice almost that you can draw, that you can give to people with difficult childhoods.

WALTER: I think all of us have demons, even those of us who grew up in a magical part of New Orleans with sweet parents. We all have demons. Rule one in life is harness your demons. Know that you're ambitious or not ambitious or you're lazy or whatever. Leonardo DaVinci knew he was a procrastinator. I think it's useful to know what's eaten at you, know how to harness it. Also know what you're good at. I'll take Musk as another example. I'm a little bit more like Kimball Musk than Elon. I maybe got over endowed with the empathy gene. What does that mean? Well, it means that I was okay when I ran Time Magazine. It was a group of about 150 people on the editorial floors and I knew them all and we had a jolly time. When I went to CNN, I was not very good at being a manager or an executive of an organization. I cared a little bit too much that people didn't get annoyed at me or mad at me. Elon said that about John McNeil, for example, who was president of Tesla. It's in the book. I talked to John McNeil a long time and he says, Elon just would fire people. He really rough on people. He didn't have the empathy for the people in front of him. Elon says, yeah, that's right. John McNeil couldn't fire people. He cared more about pleasing the people in front of him than pleasing the entire enterprise or getting things done. Being over endowed with a desire to please people can make you less tough of a manager. That doesn't mean there aren't great people who are over endowed. Ben Franklin, over endowed with the desire to please people. The worst criticism of him from John Adams and others was that he was insinuating, which meant he was always trying to get people to like him. But that turned out to be a good thing when they can't figure out the big state, little state issue at the Constitutional Convention, when they can't figure out the Treaty of Paris, whatever it is, he brings people together and that is his superpower. So to get back to the lessons you asked, and the first was harness your demons. The second is to know your strengths and your superpower. My superpower is definitely not being a tough manager. After running CNN for a while, I said, okay, I got proven I don't really enjoy this or know how to do this well. Do I have other talents? Yeah, I think I have the talent to observe people really closely, to write about it in a straight, but I hope interesting narrative style. That's a power. It's totally different from running an organization. It took me until three years of running CNN that I realized I'm not cut to be an executive in a really high intense situations. Elon Musk is cut to be an executive in highly intense situations so much so that when things get less intense, when they actually are making enough cars and rockets are going up and landing, he thinks of something else so he can surge and have more intensity. He's addicted to intensity and that's his superpower, which is a lot greater than the superpower of being a good observer.

LEX: But I think also to build on that, it's not just addiction to risk and drama. There's always a big mission above it. So I would say it's an empathy towards people in the big picture.

WALTER: It's an empathy towards humanity more than the empathy towards the three or four humans who might be sitting in the conference room with you. And that's a big deal. You see that in a lot of people. You see it, Bill Gates, Larry Summers, Elon Musk. They always have empathy for these great goals of humanity. And at times they can be clueless about the emotions of the people in front of them or callous sometimes. Musk, as you said, is driven by mission more than any person I've ever seen. And it's not only mission, it's like cosmic missions, meaning he's got three really big missions. One is to make humans a spacefaring civilization, make us multi -planetary or get us to Mars. Number two is to bring us into the era of sustainable energy, to bring us into the era of electric vehicles and solar roofs and battery packs. And third is to make sure that artificial intelligence is safe and is aligned with human values. And every now and then I'd talk to him and we'd be talking about Starlink satellites or whatever. Or he would be pushing the people in front of him at SpaceX and saying, if you do this, we'll never get to Mars in our lifetime. And then he would give the lecture how important it was for human consciousness to get to Mars in our lifetime. And I'm thinking, okay, this is the pep talk of somebody trying to inspire a team or maybe it's a type of pontification you do on a podcast. But on like the 20th time I watched him, I realized, okay, I believe it. He actually is driven by this.

LEX: He is frustrated and angry that because of this particular minor engineering decision, the big mission is not going to be accomplished. It's not a pep talk. It's a literal frustration.

WALTER: And impatience, a frustration. And it's also just probably the most deeply ingrained thing in him is his mission. He joked at one point to me about how much he loved reading comics as a kid. And he said, all the people in the comic books, they're trying to save the world, but they're wearing their underpants on the outside and they look ridiculous. And then he paused and said, but they are trying to save the world. And whether it's Starlink in Ukraine or Starship going to Mars or trying to get a global new Tesla, I think he's got this epic sense of the role he's going to play in helping humanity on big things. And like the characters in the comic books, it's sometimes ridiculous, but it also is sometimes true.

LEX: When I was reading this part of the book, I was thinking of all the young people who are struggling in this way. And I think a lot of people are in different ways, whether they grow up without a father, whether they grow up with physical, emotional, mental abuse or demons of any kind, as you talked about. And it's really painful to read, but also really damn inspiring that if you sort of walk side by side with those demons, if you don't let that pain break you or somehow channel it, if you can put it this way, that you can achieve, you can do great things in this world.

WALTER: Well, that's an epic view of why we write biography, which is more epic than I'd even thought of. So I say thank you because in some ways what you're trying to do is say, okay, I mean, Leonardo, you talk about being a misfit, he's born illegitimate in the village of Vinci and he's gay and he's left -handed and he's distracted and his father won't legitimize him. And then he wanders off to the town of Florence and he becomes the greatest artist and engineer of that part of the Renaissance. I hope this book inspires. Jennifer Doudna, the gene editing pioneer who helps discover CRISPR, gene editing tool, which my book, The Code Breaker, she grew up feeling like a misfit in Hawaii, in a Polynesian village being the only white person and also trying to live up to a father who pushed her. So if people can read the books, and I should have said about Jennifer Doudna, my point was that she was told by her school guidance counselor, no, girls don't do science. You know, science is not for girls. You're not going to do math or science. And so it pushes her to say, all right, I'm going to do math and science.

LEX: Just to interrupt real quick, but Jennifer Doudna, you've written an amazing book about her, Nobel Prize winner, CRISPR developer, just incredible, one of the great scientists in the 21st century.

WALTER: Right. And I'm talking about when Jennifer Doudna was young and she felt really, really out of place, like you and me and a lot of people when they feel in that way, they read books, they go into the curl up with the book. So her father drops a book on her bed called The Double Helix, the book by James Watson on the discovery of the structure of DNA by him and Rosalind Franklin and Francis Crick. And she realizes, oh my God, girls can become scientists. My school guidance counselor is wrong. So I think books, like she read this book, and even if it's a comic book, like Elon Musk read, books can sometimes inspire you. And every one of my books is about people who are totally innovative, who weren't just smart, because none of us are going to be able to match Einstein and mental processing power. But we can be as curious as he was and creative and think out of the box the way he did, or Steve Jobs put it, think different. And so I hope with my books, I'm saying this isn't a how -to guide, but this is somebody you can walk alongside. You can see Einstein growing up Jewish in Germany. You can see Jennifer Doudna growing up as an outsider or Leonardo da Vinci or Elon Musk in really violent South Africa with a psychologically difficult father. And getting off the train when he goes to anti -apartheid concert with his brother, and there's a man with a knife sticking out of his head, and they step into the pool of blood and it's sticking on their souls. This causes scars that last the rest of your life. And the question is not how do you avoid getting scarred? It's how do you deal with it?

LEX: Einstein too, one of my, and it's hard to pick my favorite of your biographies, but Einstein, I mean, you really paint a picture of another, I don't want to call him a misfit, but a person who doesn't necessarily have a standard trajectory through life of success. So that's extremely inspiring. I don't know exactly what question to ask. There's a million.

WALTER: Well, I'll talk about the misfit for a second, because we talked about Leonardo being that way. Einstein is Jewish in Germany at a time when it starts getting difficult. He's slow in learning how to talk and he's a visual thinker. So he's always daydreaming and imagining things. The first time he applies to the Zurich polytech, because he runs away from the German education system because it's too much learning by rote. He gets rejected by the Zurich polytech. Now it's the second best school in Zurich and they're rejecting Einstein. I tried to find, but couldn't the name of the admissions counselor at the Zurich polytech. Like you rejected Einstein. And then he doesn't finish in the top half of his class. And once he does and he goes to graduate school, they don't accept his dissertation. So he can't get a job. He's not teaching it. He even tries about 14 different high schools, gymnasium to get a job and they won't take him. So he's a third class examiner in the Swiss patent office in 1905. Third class because they've rejected his doctoral dissertation. And so he can't be second class or first class because he doesn't have a doctoral degree. And yet he's sitting there in the stool in the patent office in 1905 and writes three papers that totally transform science. And if you're thinking about being misunderstood or unappreciated in 1906, he's still a third class patent. In 1907, he still is. It takes until 1909 before people realized that this notion of the theory of relativity might be correct and it might upend all of Newtonian physics.

LEX: How is it possible for three of the greatest papers in the history of science to be written in one year by this one person? Is there some insights, wisdoms you draw?

WALTER: Plus he out of a day job is a patent examiner. And there's really three papers, but there's also an addendum because once you figure out quantum theory and then you figure out relativity and you're understanding Maxwell's equations and the speed of light, he does a little addendum. That's the most famous equation in all of physics, which is E equals MC squared. So it's a pretty good year. It partly starts because he's a visual thinker. And I think it was helpful that he was at the patent office rather than being the acolyte of some professor at the academy where he was supposed to follow the rules. And so the patent office said doing devices to synchronize clocks because the Swiss have just gone on standard time zones and Swiss people, as you know, tend to be rather Swiss. They care if it strikes the hour in Basel, it should do the same and burn at the exact end. So you have to send a light signal between two distant clocks. And he's visualizing what it'll look like to ride alongside a light beam. He says, well, if you catch up with it, if you go almost as fast, it'll look stationary. But Maxwell's equations don't allow for that. And he said, he's making my palm sweat that I was so worried. And so he finally figures out because he's looking at these devices to synchronize clocks, that if you're traveling really, really fast, what looks synchronous to you or synchronized to you is different than for somebody traveling really fast in the other direction. And he makes the mental leap that time that the speed of light is always constant, but time is relative depending on your state of motion. So it was that type of out of the box thinking, those leaps that made 1905 his miracle year. Likewise with Musk, I mean, after General Motors and Ford, everybody gives up on electric vehicles to just say, I know how we're going to have a path to change the entire trajectory of the world into the era of electric vehicles. And then when he comes back from Russia, where he tried to buy a little rocket ship so he could send a experimental greenhouse to Mars, and they were poking fun of them and actually spit on them at one point in a drunken lunch. This is very fortuitous because on the ride back home on the plane, on the Delta Airlines flight, he's like doing the calculations of how much materials, how much metal, how much fuel, how much would it really cost. And so he's visualizing things that other people would just say is impossible. It's what Steve Jobs' friends called the reality distortion field. And it drove people crazy. It drove them mad, but it also drove them to do things they didn't think they would be able to do.

LEX: You said visual thinking. I wonder if you've seen parallels of the different styles and kinds of thinking that operate the minds of these people. So is there parallels you see between Elon, Steve Jobs, Einstein, Da Vinci, specifically in how they think?

WALTER: I think they were all visual thinkers, perhaps coming from slight handicaps as children, meaning Leonardo was left -handed and a little bit dyslectic, I think. And certainly Einstein had a callia. He would repeat things. He was slow in learning to talk. So I think visualizing helps a lot. And with Musk, I see it all the time when I'm walking the factory lines with him or in product development, where he'll look at, say, the heat shield under the Raptor engine of a Starship booster. And he'll say, why does it have to be this way? Couldn't we trim it this way? Or even get rid of this part of it. And he can visualize the material science. There's small anecdotes in my book, but at one point he's on the Tesla line and they're trying to get 5 ,000 cars a week in 2018. It's a life or death situation. And he's looking at the machines that are bolting something to the chassis. And Lars Moravey, one of his great lieutenants, comes and they have to summon him. And he says, why are there six bolts here? And Lars and others explained, well, for the crash tests or anything else, the pressure would be in this way, so you have to. And they were blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he said, no. If you visualize it, you'll see if there's a crash, the force would go this way and that way. And it can be done with four bolts. Now that sounds risky. And they go test it and they engineer it, but it turns out to be right. I know that seems minor, but I could give you 500 of those, where in any given day, he's visualizing the physics of an engineering or manufacturing problem. That sounds pretty mundane. But for me, if you say what makes him special, there's a mission driven thing. I give you a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons is he cares not just about the design of the product, but visualizing the manufacturing of the product, the machine that makes the machine. And that's what we failed to do in America for the past 40 years. We outsource so much manufacturing. I don't think you can be a good innovator if you don't know how to make the stuff you're designing. And that's why Musk puts his designer's desk right next to the assembly lines in the factories so that they have to visualize what they drew as it becomes the physical object.

LEX: So understanding everything from the physics all the way up to the software, it's like end to end.

WALTER: Well, having an end to end control is important, certainly with Steve Jobs. I'm looking at my iPhone here. It's a big deal. That hardware only works with Apple software and for a while the iTunes store. So he has an end to end that makes it like a Zen garden in Kyoto, very carefully curated, but a thing of beauty. For Musk, when he first was at Tesla and before he was the CEO, when he was just the executive chairman and basically the finance person funding it, they were outsourcing everything. They were making the batteries in Japan and the battery pack would be at some barbecue shop in Thailand and sent to the Lotus factory in England to be put into a Lotus Elise chassis and then mentioned. That was a nightmare. You did not have end to end control of the manufacturing process. So he goes to the other extreme. He gets a factory in Fremont from Toyota and he wants to do everything in -house, the software in -house, the painting in -house, the battery. He makes its own batteries. And I think that end to end control is part of his personality. But it also would allows Tesla to be innovative.

LEX: Yeah, I got to see and understand in detail one example of that, which is the development of the brain of the car in autopilot, going from mobile eye to in -house building the autopilot system to basically getting rid of all sensors that are not rich in data to make it AI friendly, sort of saying that we can do it all with vision. And like you said, removing some of the bolts. So sometimes it's small things, but sometimes it's really big things like getting rid of radar.

WALTER: Well, vision only getting rid of radar is huge and everybody's against it. Everybody. And that's still fighting it a bit. They're still trying to do a next generation, some form of radar, but it gets back to the first principles. We're talking about visualizing. Well, he starts with the first principles and the first principles of physics involve things like what humans drive with only visual input. They don't have radar. They don't have LIDAR. They don't have sonar. And so there was no reason in the laws of physics that make it so that vision only won't be successful in creating self -driving. Now that becomes an article of faith to him and he gets a lot of pushback. And he's by the way, not been that successful in meeting his deadlines of getting self -driving. He's way too optimistic, but it was that first principles of get rid of unnecessary things. Now you would think LIDAR, why not use it? Like why not use a crush? It's like, yeah, we can do things vision only, but when I look at the stars at night, I use a telescope too. Well, you could use LIDAR, but you can't do millions of cars that way at scale. At a certain point, you have to make it not only a good product, but a product that goes to scale. And you can't make it based on maps like Google maps, because it'll never be able to then drive from New Orleans to Slidell where I want to go when it's too hot in New Orleans. Take for example, full self -drive. He has been obsessed with what he calls the robo taxi. We're going to build the next generation car without a steering wheel, without pedals, because it's going to be full self -drive. You just summon it. You won't need to drive it. Well, over and over again, all these people I've told you about, Lars Morave and Drew Baglino and others, they're saying, okay, fine, that sounds really good, but it ain't happened yet. We need to build a $25 ,000 mass market global car that's just normal with a steering wheel. And yeah, he finally turned around a few months ago and said, let's do it. And then he starts focusing on how's the assembly line going to work? How are we going to do it and make it the same platform for robo taxi so you can have the same assembly on. Likewise, for full self -drive, they were doing it by coding hundreds of thousands of lines of code that would say things like, if you see a red light, stop. If there's a blinking light, if there's two yellow lines, do this. If there's a bike lane, do this. If there's a crosswalk, do that. Well, that's really hard to do. Naly's doing it through artificial intelligence and machine learning only. FSD12 will be based on the billion or so frames from Tesla each week of Tesla drivers and saying, what happened when a human was in this situation? What did the human do? And let's only pick the best humans, the five -star drivers, the Uber drivers, as Elon says. And so that's him changing his mind and going to first principles, but saying, all right, I'm even going to change full self -driving. So that's not rules -based. It becomes AI -based. Just like ChatGPT doesn't try to answer your question, who are the five best popes or something by studying? ChatGPT does it by having ingested billions of pieces of writing that people have done. This will be AI, but real world done by ingesting video.

LEX: Sometimes it feels like he and others, they're building things in this world successfully, are basically confidently exploring a dark room with a very confident, ambitious vision of what that room actually looks like. They're just walking straight into the darkness. There's no painful toys or Legos on the ground. I'm just going to walk. I know exactly how far the wall is. And then very quickly willing to adjust as they run into, they step on the Lego and their body is filled with a lot of pain. What I mean by that is there's this kind of evolution that seems to happen where you discover really good ideas along the way that allow you to pivot. Like to me, since a few years ago, when you could see with Andrei Karpathy, the software 2 .0 evolution of autopilot, it became obvious to me that this is not about the car. This is about optimus, the robot. If we look back a hundred years from now, the car will be remembered as a cool car, nice transportation, but the autopilot won't be the thing that controls the car. It will be the thing that allows embodied AI systems to understand the world. So broadly, that kind of approach and you kind of stumble into it. Will Tesla be a car company? Will it be an AI company? Will it be a robotics company? Will it be a home robotics company? Will it be an energy company? And then you kind of slowly discover this as you confidently push forward with a vision. It's interesting to watch that kind of evolution as long as it's backed by this confidence.

WALTER: There are a couple of things that are required for that. One is being adventurous. One doesn't enter a dark room without a flashlight and a map unless you're a risk taker, unless you're adventurous. The second is to have iterative brain cycles where you can process information and do a feedback loop and make it work. The third, and this is what we failed to do a lot in the United States and perhaps around the world, is when you take risks, you have to realize you're going to blow things up. First three rockets, the Falcon rockets that NASA does, they blow up. Even Starship, three and a half minutes, but then it blows up the first time. So I think Boeing and NASA and others have become unwilling to enter your dark room without knowing exactly where the exit is and the lighted path to the exit. And the people who created America whenever they came over, whether the Mayflower is refugees from the Nazis, they took a lot of risks to get here. And now I think we have more referees than we have risk takers, more lawyers and regulators and others saying you can't do that, that's too risky, than people willing to innovate. And you need both. I think you're also right on 50, 100 years from now, what Musk will be most remembered for besides space travel is real world AI. Not just Optimus the robot, but Optimus the robot and the self -driving car, they're pretty much the same. They're using GPU clusters or dojo chips or whatever it may be to process real world data. We all got, and you did on your podcast, quite excited about large language model, generative predictive text AI. That's fine, especially if you want to chit chat with your chat bot. But the Holy grail is artificial general intelligence. And the tough part of that is real world AI. And that's where Optimus the robot or full self -drive are, I think, far ahead of anybody else.

LEX: Well, I like how you said chit chat. I would say for one of the greatest writers ever, it's funny that you spoke about language and the mastery of languages as merely chit chat. People have fallen in love over some words. People have gone to wars over some words. I think words have a lot of power. It's actually an interesting question where the wisdom of the world, the wisdom of humanity is in words or is it in visuals, is it in the physical? I don't really - It's in mathematics. Maybe it all boils down to math and in the end, this kind of discussion about real world AI versus language is all the same, maybe. I've gotten a chance to hang out quite a bit in the metaverse with Mr. Mark Zuckerberg recently and boy is the realism in there. The thing that's coming up in the future is incredible. I got scanned in Pittsburgh for 10 hours. I went into the metaverse and there's a virtual version of me and I got to hang out with that virtual version. Do you like yourself? Well, I never liked myself, but it was easier to like that other guy. That was interesting. Does he like you? He doesn't seem to care much.

WALTER: That's the lack of the empathy.

LEX: It made me start to question even more than before, how important is this physical reality? Because I got to see myself and other people in that metaverse, the details of the face, all the things that you think, maybe if you look at yourself in the mirror are imperfections, all this kind of stuff. When I was looking at myself and at others, all of those things are beautiful. It was real and it was intense and it was scary because you're like, well, are you allowed to murder people in the metaverse? Because what are you allowed to do? Because you can replicate a lot of those things and you start to question what are the fundamental things that make life worth living here as we know it's humans.

WALTER: Have you talked to Elon about his views of what living in a simulation may be and how you would figure out if that's true?

LEX: Yes, there's a constant lighthearted, but also a serious sense that this is all a bit of a game.

WALTER: One of my theories on Elon, a minor theory, is that he read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy once too often. As you know, there's a scene in there that says that there's a theory about the universe that if anybody ever discovers the secrets of meanings of the universe, it will be replaced by an even more complex universe. Then the next line Douglas Adams writes is, there's another theory that this has already happened. I'm not trying to get my head around that, but I know that Elon Musk tries to. There's a humor to that. There's an enormous humor to Hitchhiker's Guide. I really think that helped Musk out of the darkest of his periods to have the sense of fun of figuring out what life is all about.

LEX: I wonder if there's a smaller side we could say, just having gotten to know Elon very well, the silliness, the willingness to engage in the absurdity of it all and have fun. What is that? Is that just a quirk of personality or is that a fundamental aspect of a human who's running six plus companies?

WALTER: Well, it's a relief valve just like video games and polytopia and Elden Ring, a release valve for him. He does have an explosive sense of humor as you know. The weird thing is when he makes the abrupt transition from dark demon mode and you're in the conference room and he has really become upset about something. Not only there are dark vibes, but there's dark words emanating and he's saying, your resignation will be accepted if you die, etc. Then something pops and he pulls out his phone and pulls up a Bonnie Pythons skit like the School of Silly Walks or whichever John Cleese it was. He starts laughing again and things break. It's almost as if he has different modes, the emulation of human mode, the engineering mode, the dark and demon mode, and certainly there is the silly and giddy mode.

LEX: Yeah, you've actually opened the Elon book with quotes from Elon and from Steve Jobs. So Elon's quote is, to anyone I've offended, I just want to say, this is on SNL, I just want to say, I reinvented electric cars and I'm sending people to Mars on a rocket ship. Did you also think I was going to be a chill normal dude? And then the quote from Steve Jobs, of course, is the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do. So what do you think is the role of the old madness and genius? What do you think is the role of crazy in this?

WALTER: Well, first of all, let's both stipulate that Musk is crazy at times. I mean, and then let's figure out, and I try to do it through storytelling, not through hyphilic and preaching, where that craziness works. Give me a story, tell me an anecdote, tell me where he's crazy. And the almost final example, AI, but him shooting off Starship for the first time, in between an aborted countdown and the shoot off, he goes to Miami to an ad sales conference and meets Linda Iaccarino for the first time, makes her the CEO. I mean, there's a very impulsiveness to him. Then he flies back, they launch Starship, and you realize that there's a drive and there are demons and there's also craziness. And you sometimes want to pull those out. You want to take away his phone so he doesn't tweet at 3 AM. You want to say, quit being so crazy. But then you realize there's a wonderful line of Shakespeare in Measure for Measure at the very end. He says, even the best are molded out of faults. And so you take the faults of Musk, for example, which includes a craziness that can be endearing, but also craziness that's just like effing crazy, as well as this drive and demon mode. I don't know that you can take that strand out of the fabric and the fabric remains whole.

LEX: I wonder, sometimes it saddens me that we live in a society that doesn't celebrate even the darker aspects of crazy in acknowledging that it all comes in one package. It's the man in the arena versus the critic.

WALTER: And the man in the arena versus the regulator to make it more prosaic.

LEX: Well, let me ask about not just the crazy, but the cruelty. So you've written one reporting on Steve Jobs. Was told you that the big question to ask was, did he have to be so mean, so rough and cruel, so drama addicted? What is this answer for Steve Jobs? Did he have to be so cruel?

WALTER: For Jobs, I asked Was at the end of my reporting, because that's what he said at the beginning, we're doing the launch of, I think the iPad 2, it may have been. Steve is emaciated because he's been sick. And so I say to Was, what's the answer to your question? And he said, well, if I had been running Apple, I would have been nicer to everybody. Everybody got stuck up. We've been like a family. And then I don't know if you know Was, he's like a teddy bear. He paused, he smiled and he said, but if I had been running Apple, I don't think we would have done the Macintosh or the iPhone. So yeah, you have to sometimes be rough. And Jobs said the same thing that Must said to me, which is he said, people like you love wearing velvet gloves. Now I don't know that I've worn velvet gloves often, but you like people to like you, you like to sweet talk things, you sugar coat things. He says, I'm just a working class kid and I don't have that luxury. If something sucks, I got to tell people it sucks. Or I've got a team of B players. Well, Musk is that way as well. And it gets back to what I said earlier, which is, yeah, I probably would wear velvet gloves if I could find them at my haberdasher. And I do try to sugar coat things. But when I was running CNN, it needed to be reshaped. It needed to be broken. It needed to have certain things blown up. And I didn't do it. So bad on me, but it made me realize, okay, I'll just write about the people who can do it.

LEX: Well, that thing of saying, I think probably both of them, but Elon certainly saying things like that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

WALTER: By the way, I've heard Jeff Bezos say that. I've heard Bill Gates say that. I've heard Steve Jobs say it. I've heard Steve Jobs say it about a smoothie. They were making it a whole fruit or something. They use the word stupid really often.

LEX: And you know who else used it?

WALTER: Errol Musk. He kept baking. Elon stand in front of him and saying, that's the stupidest thing. You're the stupidest person. You'll never amount to anything. I don't know. As John McNeil, the president of Tesla said, do you have to be that way? Probably not. There are a lot of successful people who are much kinder, but it's sometimes necessary to be much more brutally honest, I would say, than people like who are when boss of the year trophies.

LEX: Well, as you said, this kind of idea did also send a signal. This idea of Steve Jobs of eight players, it did send a signal to everybody. It was a kind of encouragement to the people that are all in.

WALTER: Right. And that happened to Twitter. When we went to Twitter headquarters the day before the takeover, he was having Andrew and James, his two young cousins and other people from the autopilot team, going over lines of code. And Musk himself sat there with a laptop on the second floor of the building, looking at the lines of code that had been written by Twitter engineers. And they decided they were going to fire 85 % of them because they had to be all in. And this notion of psychological safety and mental days off and working with remotely, he said, either. And then it came up, actually one of his, I think it was one of the cousins or maybe Ross Nordine came up with the idea of let's not be so rough and just fire all these people. Let's ask them, do you really want to be all in? Because this is going to be hardcore. It's going to be intense. You get to choose, but by midnight tonight we want you to check the box. I'm hardcore, all in, I'll be there in person, I'll work, you know, or that's not for me. I've got a family, I got work balance and you got different type of people that way and different stages of their life. I was a little bit more hardcore and all in when I was in my twenties and when I was, you know, in my fifties.

LEX: Yeah. And you write about this really nice idea actually, that there's two camps and you find out, I don't, I wonder how true this is. It rings true. You can just ask people, which camp are you in? Are you the kind of person that prize themselves, that enjoy staying up till 2 a .m. programming or whatever? Or do you see the value of quote unquote, you know, about life, work life balance, all this kind of stuff. And it's interesting. I mean, like you could, people probably divide themselves in different stages of life and you can just ask them and it makes sense for certain companies in certain stages of their development to be like, we only want hardcore people.

WALTER: Or certain teams. It doesn't even have to be a whole company. And you're right. It goes back to what I was saying about rule. The first secret is sort of know thyself obviously comes from Plato and everything comes from Plato and Socrates, but, and decide on this stage of my life. Am I, do I want to be a hackathon all in all night and change the world? Or do I want to bring wisdom and stability, but also have balance? I think it's good to have different companies with different styles. The problem was Twitter was at almost one extreme with yoga studios and mental health days off and enshrining psychological safety as one of the mantras that people should never feel psychologically threatened. And he, I remember the bitter laugh he unleashed when he kept hearing that word. He said, no, I like the words hardcore. I like intensity. I like a intense sense of urgency as our operating principle. Well, yeah, there are people that way as well.

LEX: And so know who you are and know what type of team you want to build. Versus psychological safety and too many birds everywhere. Oh yeah.

WALTER: A lot of times Musk did things and I go, what the hell? And among them was changing the name Twitter and getting rid of the birds. I said, Hey man, it's a lot invested in that brand. But when I watched him, he thought, okay, these sweet little chirpy birds tweeting away in the name Twitter, it's not hardcore. It's not intense. And so for better and for worse, I think he's taking acts into the hardcore realm with people who post hardcore things, with people with hardcore views. It's not a polite playpen for the blue checked anointed elite. And I thought, okay, this is going to be bad. The whole thing is going to fall apart. Well, it has had problems, but the hardcore intensity of it has also meant that there's new things happening there. So it's very Elon Musk to not like this sweetness of birds chirping and tweeting and saying, I want something more hardcore.

LEX: As you've written in referring to the previous Twitter CEO, Elon said Twitter needs a fire breathing dragon. I think this is a good opportunity to maybe go through some of the memorable moments of the Twitter saga as you've written about extensively in your book, from the early days of considering the acquisition to how it went through to the details of, like you mentioned, the engineering teams.

WALTER: Well, at the beginning of 2022, he was riding high, but as we say, he's a drama addict. He doesn't like to ghost. And Tesla sold a million vehicles. I think 33 boosters, Falcon 9s have been shot up and landed safely in the past few months. And he was the richest person on earth and times person of the year. And yet, he'd said, I'm still want to put all my chips back on the table. I want to keep taking risks. I don't want to savor things. He had sold all of his houses. So he starts secretly buying shares of Twitter. January, February, March becomes public at a certain point. I don't know if I should declare it. And we were here in Austin at Gigafactory on the mezzanine. And he was trying to figure out, well, where do I go from here? And at that time, this early April, they were going to offer him a board seat and he was going to do a standstill agreement and stop at 10 % or something. Now remember, we were standing around. It was Luke Nozick, whom you know well, Ken Halry, some of his friends on that mezzanine here. And all afternoon and then late into the evening at dinner is like, should we do this? And I didn't say anything. I'm just the observer. But everybody else is saying, excuse me, why do you want to own Twitter? And Griffin, his son, joined at dinner. And May, for some reason, was in town. And like everybody says, no, we don't use Twitter. Why would you do that? And May said, well, I use Twitter. And it's almost like, okay, the demographics are people my age or May's age. And so it looked like he wasn't going to pursue it. They offered him a board seat. And then he went off to Hawaii to Larry Ellison's house, which he sometimes uses. He was meeting a friend, Angela Bassett, an actress. And instead of enjoying three days of vacation, he just became supercharged and started firing off text messages, including the fire breathing dragon one. I think he used that phrase a few times that Parag wasn't the person who was going to take Twitter to a new level. And then by the time he gets to Vancouver, where Grimes meets him, they stay up all night playing Elden Ring. He was doing a TED Talk. And then at 5 .30, he finishes playing Elden Ring and sends out that I've made an offer. Even when he comes back, people are trying to intervene and say, excuse me, why are you doing it? And so it was a rocky period between late April and October when the deal closed. And people ask me all the time, well, did he want to get out of the deal? I said, which Elon are you talking about at what time of day? Because there'll be times in the morning when he'd say, oh, the Delaware court's going to force me to do it. It's horrible. Talk to his lawyers. You can win this case. Get me out of it. He met here in Austin with three or four investment bankers, Blair Efron at Centerview, Bob Steele at Pirella Weinberg. And they offered him options. Do you want to get out? Do you want to stay in? Do you want to reduce the price? And I think he was mercurial. There were times he would text me or say to me, this is going to be great. It's going to be the accelerant to do x .com the way we thought about 20 years ago. And so it's not until they finally tell him at the beginning of October, right when Optimus the Robot is being unveiled in California actually, that the lawyer say, you're not going to probably win this case, but better go through with the deal. And by then he's not only made his peace with it, he's kind of happy with it at time. Eventually, the deal is going to close on I think a Friday morning. I have it in the book. And we're there on Thursday and he's wandering around looking at the stay woke t -shirts and psychological safety lingo they're all using. And he and his lawyers and bankers hatched a plan to do a flash close. And the reason for that was if they close the deal after the markets had closed for the day, and he could send a letter to Parag and two others, firing them quote for cause, and this will be something the courts will have to figure out, then he could save 200 million or so. And it was both the money, but for him a matter, I won't say of principle, but of, hey, they misled me about the numbers. I got forced into doing it. So I'm going to try this jujitsu maneuver and be able to get some money out of them. Then when he takes over, it's kind of a wild scene. Him trying to decide in three different rounds how to get the staff down to 15 % of what it was. Him deciding on Christmas Eve, after he'd been at a meeting where they told him we can't get rid of that Sacramento server farm, because it's need of a redundancy. He says, no, it's not. And he's flying here to Austin. And young James says, why don't we just do it ourselves? He turns the plane around, they land in Sacramento and he pulls them out himself. So it was a manic period.

LEX: We should also say that underneath of that, there was a running desire to or consideration to perhaps start a new company to build a social media company from scratch.

WALTER: Well, Kimball wanted to do that. And Kimball here at a wonderful restaurant in Austin, at lunch is like, hey, why are you buying Twitter? Let's start one from scratch and do it on the blockchain. Now it took him a while, and you can argue it one way or the other, to come to the conclusion that the blockchain was not fast enough and responsive time enough to be able to handle a billion tweets in a day or so. He gets mad when they keep trying to get him to talk to Sam Bankman Fried, who's trying to say, I'll invest, but we have to do it on the blockchain. Kimball is still in favor of starting a new one and doing it on blockchain based. In retrospect, I think starting a new media company would have been better. He wouldn't have had the baggage or the legacy that he's breaking now in breaking the way Twitter had been. But it's hard to have millions and millions, hundreds of millions of true users, not just trolls, and start from scratch as others have found, as Macedon and Blue Sky and threads and not any threads even had a base. So it would have been hard.

LEX: Yeah. And to do that in the way he did requires another part that you write about with the three musketeers and the whole engineering, the firing and the bringing in the engineers to try to sort of go hardcore. So there's a lot of interesting sort of questions to ask there, but the high level, can you just comment about that part of the saga, which is bringing in the engineers and seeing like, what can we do here?

WALTER: Right. He brought in the engineers and figured that the amount of people doing Tesla, full self -driving autopilot and all the software there was about one 10th of what was doing software for Twitter. And he said, this can't be the case. And he fired 85 % in three different rounds. The first was just firing people because they looked at the coding and they had a team of people from Tesla's autopilot team grading the codes of all that was written in the past year or so. Then he fired people who didn't seem to be totally all in or loyal. And then another round of layoffs. So at each step of the way, almost everybody said, that's enough. It's going to destroy things. From Alex Spiro, his lawyer to Jared Burchill, he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And even Andrew and James, the young cousins who are tasked with making a list and figuring out who's good or bad, say, we've done enough. We're going to be in real trouble. And they were partly right. I mean, there was degradation of the service some, but not as much as half the services I use half the time. And I wake up each morning and hit the app and okay, still there. What do you think?

LEX: Was that too much?

WALTER: I think that he has an algorithm that we mentioned earlier that begins with question every requirement, but it's up to his delete, delete, delete, delete every part. And then a corollary to that is if you don't end up adding back 20 % of what you deleted, then you didn't delete enough in the first round because you were too timid. Well, so you asked me, did he overdo it? He probably over did it by 20%, which is his formula. And they're probably trying to hire people now to keep things going.

LEX: But it sends a strong signal to people that are hired back or the people that are still there.

WALTER: The April idea. Yeah. And what Steve Jobs and many other great leaders felt and certainly Bezos and certainly in the early days of Microsoft, Bill Gates, it was hardcore, only A players.

LEX: So how much of Elon's success would you say? Elon's and Steve Jobs' success is the hiring and managing of great teams.

WALTER: When I asked Steve Jobs at one point, what was the best product you ever created? I thought he'd say maybe the Macintosh or maybe the iPhone. He said, no, those products are hard. The best thing I ever created was the team that made those products. And that's the hard part is creating a team. And he did, from Johnny Ive to Tim Cook and Eddie Q and Phil Schiller. Elon has done a good job bringing in people. Gwen Shotwell, obviously, Linda Iaccarino, she can navigate through the current crises. Certainly stellar people at SpaceX like Mark Jankos. And then at Tesla like Drew Bacalhino and Lars Marravey and Tom Zhu and many others. He's not as much of a team collaborator as say Benjamin Franklin, who by the way, that's the best team ever created, which is the founders. And you had to have really smart people like Jefferson and Madison and really passionate people like John Adams and his cousin Samuel and really a guy of high rectitude like Washington. But you also needed a Ben Franklin who could bring everybody together and forge a team out of them and make them compromise with each other. Musk is a magnet for awesome talent.

LEX: Magnet, interesting. But there's like the priorities of hiring based on excellence, trustworthiness and drive. These are things you've described throughout the book. I mean, there's a pretty concrete and rigorous set of ideas based on which the hiring is done.

WALTER: Oh yeah. And he has a very good, spidey, intuitive sense just looking at people who could, I mean, not looking at them, but studying them who could be good. One of his ways of operating is what he calls a skip level meeting. And let's take a very specific thing like the Raptor engine, which is powering the Starship. And it wasn't going well. It looked like a spaghetti bush and it was going to be hard to manufacture. And he got rid of the people who were in charge of that team. And I remember that he spent a couple of months doing what he calls skip level, which means instead of meeting with his direct reports on the Raptor team, he would meet with the people one level below them. And so he would skip a level and meet with them. And he said, this is, and I just ask them what they're doing. And I drilled them with questions. And he said, and this is how I figure out who's going to emerge. He said it was particularly difficult. I was sitting in those meetings because people were wearing masks. It was during the height of COVID. And he said it made it a little bit harder for him because he has to get the input. But I watched as a young kid, Dreadlocks named Jacob McKenzie, he's in the book, is sitting there and he's a bit like you. Engineering mindset speaks in a bit of a monotone. Musk would ask a question and he would give an answer and the answer would be very straightforward and he didn't get rattled. He was like this. And Musk said one day called him up at 3 a .m. Well, I won't say 3 a .m., but after midnight said, you still around? And Jake said, yeah, I'm still at work. And he said, OK, I'm going to make you in charge of the team building Raptor. And that was like a big surprise. But Jacob McKenzie has now gotten a version of Raptor and when they're building him at least one a week and they're pretty awesome. And that's where his talent, Musk's talent for finding the right person and promoting them. That's where it is.

LEX: And promoting it in a way where it's like here's the ball, here catch.

WALTER: Yeah, yeah.

LEX: And you run with it. I've interacted with quite a few folks from even just the Model X, all throughout, where people, you know, on paper don't seem like they would be. able to run the thing and they run it extremely successfully.

WALTER: And he does it wrong. Sometimes he's had a horrible track record with the solar roof division. Wonderful guy named Brian Dow. I really liked him. And when they were doing the battery factory surge in Nevada, Musk got rid of two or three people and there's Brian Dow. Can do, can do, can do. Stays up all night and he gets promoted and runs it. And so finally Musk goes through two or three people running the solar roof division. Finally calls up Brian Dow. I was sitting in Musk's house in Boca Chica, that little tiny two bedroom he has. And he offers Brian Dow the job of running solar roof. And you know, Brian there, okay, can do, can do. And two or three times Musk insisted that they install a solar roof in one of those houses in Boca Chica. This is this tiny village at the south end of Texas. And late at night, I mean, I'd have to climb up to the top of the roof on these ladders and stand on this peaked roof as Musk is there saying, why do we need four screws to put in this single leg? And Brian was just sweating and doing everything. But then after a couple of months it wasn't going well and boom, Musk just fired him. So I always try to learn, what is it that makes those who stay thrive?

LEX: What's the lesson there? What do you think?

WALTER: Well, I think it's self -knowledge like an Andy Krebs or others. They say, I am hardcore. I really want to get a rocket to Mars and that's more important than anything else. One of the people, I think it's Tim Zeman, I hope when he hears this, I'm getting him the right person, who took time. It was working for Tesla autopilot and it was just so intense. He took some time off and then went to another company. He said, I was burned out at Tesla, but then I was bored at the next place. So I called, I think it was Ashok at Tesla, said, can I come back? He said, sure. He said, I learned about myself. I'd rather be burned out than bored.

LEX: That's a good line. Can you just linger on one of the three that seem interesting to you in terms of excellence, trustworthiness and drive? Which one do you think is the most important and the hardest to get at? The trustworthiness is an interesting one. Are you ride or die kind of thing?

WALTER: Yeah. I think that especially when it came to taking over Twitter, he thought half the people there were disloyal and he was wrong. About two -thirds were disloyal, not just half. It was how do we weed out those? He did something and made the firing squad, I call it, or the Musketeers, I think is my nickname for them, which is the young cousins and two or three other people. He made them look at the Slack messages these people had posted. Everybody at Twitter had posted and they went through hundreds of Slack messages. If anybody posted on the internal Slack, that jerk, Elon Musk, is going to take over and I'm afraid that he's a maniac or something, they would be on the list because they want all -in loyal. They did not look at private Slack messages and I guess people who are posting on a corporate Slack board should be aware that your company can look at them. But that's more than I would have done or most people would have done. That was to figure out who's deeply committed and loyal. I think that was mainly the case at Twitter. He doesn't sit around at SpaceX saying who's loyal to me. At other places, it's excellence, but that's pretty well a given. Everybody is like a Marc Jancosa, just whip smart. It's are you hardcore and all -in, especially if you have to move to this spit of a town in the south tip of Texas called Boca Chica, you got to be all -in.

LEX: Yeah. That's the drive, the last piece. You, in terms of collaborating, one of the great teams of all time, Ben Franklin. I like that. I thought it was the Beatles, but Ben Franklin is pretty good. Oh, no, no, no. I'm sorry.

WALTER: Yeah. Sorry to offend you so much. Read the Constitution and read Abbey Road. Look at Abbey Road. They're both good, but they're in a different league.

LEX: Yeah, a different league. One of the many things that comes to mind with Ben Franklin is incredible time management. Is there something you could say about Ben Franklin and about Steve Jobs? I think interesting with Elon is that he, as you write, runs six companies, depends how you startling because it's own thing, I don't know. What can you say about these people in terms of time management?

WALTER: Well, Musk is in a league of his own in the way he does it. First of all, Steve Jobs had to run Pixar and Apple for a while, but Musk, every couple of hours is switching his mindset from how to implant the neural link chip and what will the robot that implants it in the brain look like and how fast can we make it move, and then the heat shield on the Raptor or switching to human imitation, machine learning, full self -drive. On the night that the Twitter board agreed to the deal, this is huge around the world. I'm sure you remember, like Musk buys Twitter. It wasn't when the deal closed. It was when the Twitter accepted his offer. I thought, okay, but then he went to Boca Chica, to South Texas, and spent time fixating, if I remember correctly, a valve in the Raptor engine that had a methane leak issue, and what were the possible ways to fix it. All the engineers in that room, I assume, are thinking about, this guy just bought Twitter, should we say something, and then he goes with Kimball to a roadside joint in Brownsville and just sits in the front and listens to music with nobody noticing really him being there. One of the things that's one of his strengths and sort of weaknesses in a way is in a given day, he'll focus serially, sequentially on many different things. He will worry about uploading video onto x .com or the payment system, and then immediately switch over to some issue with the FAA giving a permit for Starship or with how to deal with Starlink and the CIA. When he's focused on any of these things, you cannot distract him. It's not like he's also thinking about dealing with Starlink, but I've got to also worry about the Tesla decision on the new $25 ,000 car. Now, he'll, in between these sessions, process information, then let off steam. For better or worse, he lets off steam by either playing a friend in polytopia or fire off some tweets, which is often not a healthy thing, but it's a release for him. I once said he was a great multitasker, and that was a mistake. People corrected me. He's a serial tasker, which means focuses intensely on a task for an hour, almost has a, what do they call it, at restaurants where they give you a palate cleanser. He does some palate cleanser with polytopia and then focuses on the next task.

LEX: Is there some wisdom about time management that you can draw from that?

WALTER: There are some things that these people do and you say, okay, I can be that way. I can be more curious. I can question every rule and regulation. I just don't think anybody should try to emulate Musk's time management style because it takes a certain set of teams who know how to deal with everything else other than the thing he's focusing on and a certain mind that can shift, just like his moods can shift. You and I go through transitions and also if I'm thinking about what I'm going to say on this podcast, I'm also thinking about the email my daughter just sent about a house that she's looking at, and I'm multitasking. He doesn't actually do that. He single tasks sequentially with a focus that's hardcore.

LEX: I don't know. I think there's wisdom to draw from that. First of all, he makes me, Ben Franklin makes me feel that way, that there's a lot of hours in the day. There's a lot of minutes in the day. There's no excuse not to get a lot done and that requires just an extreme focus, an extreme focus and an urgency.

WALTER: I think the fierce urgency that drives him is important and it's sometimes ginned up. Like I say, the fierce urgency of getting to Mars and on a Friday night at the launch pad in Boca Chica at 10 p .m., there are only a few people working because it's a Friday night. They're not supposed to launch for another eight months. And he orders a surge. He says, I want 200 people here by tomorrow working on this pad. We have to have a fierce sense of urgency or we will never get to Mars.

LEX: That sense of urgency is also a vibrancy that's like really taking on life fully. I mean, to me, that's the lesson is like, even the mundane can be full of this just richness. And like you just have to really take it in intensely. So like the switching enables that kind of intensity because most of us can't hold that intensity in any one task for a prolonged period of time. Maybe that's also a lesson.

WALTER: Right. And I guess it goes back to also know who you are, meaning there are people who can focus intensely and there are people who can see patterns across many things. Look, Leonardo da Vinci, he was not all that focused. He was easily distracted. Procrastinate. It's why he has more unfinished paintings than finished paintings in his canon. But his ability to see patterns across nature and to in some ways process, procrastinate, be distracted, that helped him some, but Musk is not that way. And there every few months as a new surge, you don't know where it'll be, but you'll be on solar roofs and all of a sudden we'll have a surge and there has to be, you know, a hundred solar roofs built or this has to be done by tomorrow or make a starship dome by dawn and surge and do it. And there are people who are built that way. It is inspiring, but also lets appreciate, you know, that there are people who can be really good, but also can savor the success, savor the moment, savor the quiet sometimes. Musk's big failing is he can't savor the moment or success. And that's the flip side of hardcore intensity.

LEX: In Innovators, another book of yours that I love, you write about individuals and about groups. So one of the questions the book addresses is, is it individuals or is it groups that turn the tides of history?

WALTER: When Henry Kissinger was on the shuttle missions for the Middle East peace is the first book I ever wrote. He said, when I was a professor at Harvard, I thought that history was determined by great forces and groups of people. But when I see it up close, I see what a difference an individual can make. He's talking about Sadat and Golda Meir probably talking about himself too, or at least in his mind. And we biographers have this dirty secret that we know, we distort history a bit by making the narrative too driven by an individual. But sometimes it is driven by an individual. Musk is a case like that. And sometimes, as I did with the Innovators, there's teams and people who build on each other and Gordon Moore and Bob Noyce, then getting Andy Grove and doing the microchip, which then comes out and Wozniak and Jobs find it at some electronics store and they decide to build the Apple. And so sometimes there are flows of forces and groups of people. I guess I err a little bit on the side of looking at what Steve Jobs and Elon Musk and Albert Einstein can do. And I also try to figure out if they hadn't been around, would the forces of history and the groups of people have done it without them? That's a good historical question as somebody who loves history. And you think about special relativity, one of the 1905 papers. Even after he writes it, it's four years before people truly get what he's saying, which is it's not just how you observe time is relative, it's time itself is relative. And on the general theory, which he does a decade later, I'm not sure we would gotten that yet. What about moving us into the era of an iPhone in which it's so beautiful that you can't live without a thousand songs in your pocket, email and the internet in your pocket and a phone? There are a lot of brain dead people are from Panasonic to Motorola who didn't get that. And it may have been a while. I certainly think it's true of the era of electric vehicles. Jim and Ford, all the great people there, they crushed the bolt. And I mean that literally, they ended up smashing them because they decided to discontinue it. Likewise, nobody was sending up rockets. Our space shuttle was about to be grounded 12 years ago. And so Musk does things and there'll be people who say, if they read the book, they'll see the full story. But they say it wasn't Musk who did Tesla, it was Martin Abba Hart or Mark Tarpenning. No, no, no. There were people who had helped create the shells of companies and other things and they were all deserved to be called co -founders. But the guy who actually gets us to a million electric vehicles a year is Elon Musk. And without him, I don't think we... Look, if anybody five years from now buys a car that's gasoline powered, we'll think that's quaint, that's odd. I mean, suddenly we've changed. We're not going to do it. 90 % of that is Elon Musk.

LEX: We're all mortal. When and how do you think Elon will retire from the insanely productive schedule he's on now?

WALTER: I would think that he would hate to retire. I think that he can't live without the pressure, the drama, the all in feeling. It's never been anything that seemed to have crossed his mind. He's never said, maybe I love Larry Ellison's house on the beach in Hawaii. Maybe I should spend time in doing. Instead, he says things like, I learned early on that vacations will kill you. He gets malaria when he goes on one vacation. I mean, he goes on vacation at one point and they oust him from PayPal. And then he goes to Africa one point, he gets malaria. He says, I've learned, vacations kill you. Lesson learned.

LEX: Well, it's interesting because the projects are hundred plus year projects. Many of these.

WALTER: One of the weird things is watching him think incredibly long -term. One of the meetings every week early on when I was watching him was Mars colonizer. And we did through a two hour meeting about what would the governance structure be on Mars? What would people wear? How would the robots work? And would there be democracy or should there be a different form of governance? I'm sitting there saying, what are they doing? What are they talking about? They're trying to build rocket ships and everything else. They are worrying about the governance structure of Mars. And likewise, whenever he's in a tense moment, like there's a rocket that's about to be launched, he'll start asking people something in the way future, like the new lead engine or something. If we're going to build that, do we have enough materials ready to order or I don't know, he'll just ask questions like when he's building robot taxi, the global car, the $25 ,000 inexpensive global car. That's not a total passion. He was talked into doing that. His passion is robot taxis, but his passion is how are we going to make this factory to do a million cars a year? So even the robot taxi is a longer range vision. I mean, he's been touting it since 2016, but we're not. There are no robot taxis. I mean, Waymo may be doing a little experiment, but there's not cars being manufactured without steering wheels that are going to take over the highways. Yeah. So he's always looking way into the future is my point.

LEX: I just hope that there's a lot of Da Vinci's and Steve Jobs's and Einstein's and Elon Musk's that carry the flame forward.

WALTER: That's one of the reasons you write books about these people is so that if you're a young woman in a school where you're not being told to do science and you read the code breaker about Jennifer Doudna, you say, okay, I can be that. And when you say, oh, maybe I'll be a regulator or you say, oh no, maybe I'll be the person who pushes the boundaries, who pushes the lines, who pushes, as Steve Jobs said, the human race.

LEX: Well, let me ask you about your mind, your genius, your process. I'll give you two out of three. All right. Take me through your process of writing a biography. I mean, the full of it. And not just writing a biography, but understanding deeply, which your books have done for the human story and like the bigger ideas underlying the human story. So you've written biographies both of individuals, which are hardly individuals. It's a really big, complex picture. And biographies of ideas that involve individuals.

WALTER: Well, step one for me is trying to figure out how the mind works. What causes Einstein to make that leap for Elon Musk to say stainless steel while he's looking at a carbon fiber rocket? Or how do you make the mental leap? Because I write about smart people, but smart people are a dime a dozen. They don't usually amount to much. You have to be creative, imaginative to think different, as Jobs would say. And so what makes people creative? What makes them take imaginative leaps? That's the key question you got to ask. You also ask the questions like you've asked earlier, which is what demons are jangling in their head and how do they harness them into drives? So you look at all that and you try to observe really carefully the person. One of the more mundane things I do is a lot of writers try to give you a lot of their opinions and preach or whatever. As I said, this mentor said two people types come out, preachers storytellers. Be a storyteller. I try whenever I'm trying to convey a thought, there's six magic words that I almost should have written on a card pinned above my desk, which is let me tell you a story. So if somebody says how does Elon Musk figure out good talent as you did, I think, well, let me tell you the story. I'll tell you the story of Jake McKenzie. Or this is not something I invented. This is where the good Lord does it in the Bible. I mean, it has the best opening lead sentence ever, you know, in the beginning, comma, and then it's stories. And secondly, to pick up on that lead sentence in the beginning, make it chronological. Everybody in the 40th year of their life has grown from the 39th year and the 38th year. And so you want to show how people evolve and grow. I had the greatest of all nonfiction narrative attitudes, Alice Mayhew at Simon Schuster, who among other things created all the president's men with Woodward and Bernstein. But she had a note she'd put in the margins of my books that was a tick to, and it meant all things in good time. Keep it chronological. If it's good enough for the Bible, it's good enough for you.

LEX: Interesting. To me, like that's a small note, but to you, it's extremely important.

WALTER: Because it's the framework for how you structure things, but also how you understand things, which is if you keep it a chronological narrative, then you're showing how a person has grown from one experience you've talked about to the next one. And that moral growth, creative growth, risk -taking growth, wisdom, that's the essences of creativity. But you can't do it. There's a term, Bildungsroman, which is a book that carries a narrative and tells how people learn something. I'm a big believer in narrative. If you're an academic, sometimes not today, but in like 20 years ago, 30 years ago, there were two things you thought were bad. One was having a great person theory of history in which you decided to do biography. I had a great professor when I was in college. Her name was Doris Kearns. She later married Dick Goodwin. And she, when she was going for tenure at the university, wrote a biography of Lyndon Johnson and the American dream. And they denied her tenure because it was beneath the dignity of the academy to write history through one person. That's great. It opened up the field of biography to us non -academics, starting with David McCullough, Bob Caro, but maybe John Meacham and myself are in a new generation. And certainly there's a generation coming after us. But the second thing besides telling it through people, which is the academy tended to disdain what they called imposing a narrative and what you made it storytelling. Cause that meant you were leaving things out and making it into a narrative. Well, that's how we form our views of the world.

LEX: Well, let me ask you this question in terms of gathering an understanding. How much of it is one observing and how much of it is interviews?

WALTER: Yeah. Um, and obviously depends on the subject. I mean, with a Ben Franklin, it's all based on archives and every, of course we have 40 volumes of letters. He wrote, that was a good old days when every day you'd write 20 letters. The must book is based much more on observation than almost any of my books, because he opened up in a way that was breathtaking to me. Yeah. Even when he'd be sitting blank polytopia or seething at other people, you know, he had me just sitting there watching. I mean, I spent a lot of time with Jennifer down in her side. I went to her lab and edited a human gene and, you know, with a pipette and a test tube. But I would say I spent 30 hours with her. I can't count, you know, a hundred hours or more just observing mosque. And I'm not sure that any biographer, perhaps since Boswell took on Dr. Johnson has ever had quite as much up close, meaning five feet away at all times access. And because of that, I'll go back to what I said a moment ago. I try to get out of the way of the story. It's not about me. It's not about, I try to just say, okay, here's what happened. Here's this story. Here's what happened. And then the night he came in to Twitter for the first time and let you form your own judgment.

LEX: What about the interviews? You've had a lot of conversations. You give acknowledgement to the people you've done interviews with. Well, one, I have to ask as an aspiring interviewer myself, how?

WALTER: People love to talk. People just love, you know that. I've had 140, maybe 150 people, they're all listed in the back. One of the little things that people won't notice, but I'll say it now, is all of them are on the record. Getting them to talk is easy. They all want to talk about mosque. But then at a certain point say, I don't put anonymous quotes in my book. I cite things. I say, if you're tough enough and you've gone through this, and a lot of times it takes two or three calls back. Somebody will tell me, oh no, no, no, I don't want to. But I think it's important to know where everything came from. And with mosques, I had that from the very beginning because I was a Time Magazine reporter. I'd worked, a reporter for the Times -Picayune on New Orleans. First day on the job, I had to go cover a murder. I phoned in the story from a payphone and my editor, the city editor said, well, did you talk to the family? I went, no, Billy. I mean, the family, the daughter just got, he said, go knock on the door. I knocked on the door. An hour later, they were still talking. They were bringing out her yearbook. Lesson one I learned, people want to talk if you're willing to just listen. And whether it be Henry Kissinger, you just push the button and say Kissinger, and people tell you the stories. All the way through Elon Musk, everybody talked. Everybody in his family, everybody he fired, everybody. I mean, I think it's important to listen to people. And the other thing I learned as a reporter, back when I was covering politics in New Hampshire and the early campaigns, I learned from two or three great reporters, a guy named David Broder and Tim Russert, the late NBC guy. They do what was called door knocking. You just walk in a neighborhood, knock on a door and ask people about the election. But they said, here's the secret. Don't ask any leading questions. Don't have any premise. Just say, hey, I'm trying to figure out this election. What's going on? What do you think? And then stay silent. With Musk, a third secret, you know this well. He'll go silent at times. Sometimes a minute, two minutes, four minutes. Don't try to fill the silences. If you're a listener, you gotta learn, okay, he's not saying anything for four minutes. I can outlast him.

LEX: It's tough. As humans, it's very tough. Respecting the silence is really, really difficult. Speaking of demons, when there's silence, all the demons show up in my head. The fear, I think, is if I don't say anything, it's boring. And if I say something, it's gonna be stupid. And that's the basic engine that just keeps running. Not on the podcast, on the podcast, but also in human interaction. And so I think there's that nervous energy when interacting with people.

WALTER: You can never go wrong by staying silent if there's nothing you have to say. Not something I've mastered, but I do, when I'm a reporter, try to master that, which is don't ask complex questions. Don't interject. And when somebody hasn't fully answered the question, don't say, well, let me, you know, just stay silent and then they'll keep talking.

LEX: Just give them a chance to keep talking. Even if they've kind of finished, still.

WALTER: Sometimes they haven't given you enough. Instead of following up, I'll just nod and keep away.

LEX: You're making it sound simple. Is there a secret to getting people to open up more?

WALTER: I'm somewhat lucky because, you know, I started off working for a daily newspaper and people back then, they want to talk to the newspaper reporter.

LEX: But you also have a way about you. Like, I feel like you have like a cowboy in a saloon. Like you just kind of want to talk. Like there's a draw. I don't know. I don't know what it is. Maybe that's, I don't know if it's developer, you're born with it, but there's a, it feels like I want to tell you a story of some sort.

WALTER: Good, tell me a story. A couple things. I did learn to be more quiet. I'm sure I know when I was younger or even I'll see videos of me at, you know, news things where I'm always trying to interject a question. And so you learn to be quieter sometimes. I haven't mastered it. I haven't learned it enough. You learn to be naturally curious. Many reporters today, when they ask a question or they're trying to play gotcha or trying to get a news scoop or trying to, you know, gig something that can make a lead. And if you actually are curious and you really want to know the answer to a question, then people can tell that you asked it because you want the answer, not because you're playing a game with them.

LEX: I'm sure some of them off the record, some of them on the record, you had maybe, you know, just some incredible conversations. I was going to say some of the greatest conversations ever, but who knows? Some of the best conversations ever are probably somewhere in South America between two drunk people that we never get to hear. So I don't, I don't know. But is there a device you can give from what you've learned to somebody like me and how to have good conversation, especially once recorded?

WALTER: Well, to be actually curious. I mean, every question you've asked me is because I think you actually want to know the answer and you've done your homework to be open and not to have an agenda. I mean, we all suffer from there being too many agendas in the world today.

LEX: Yeah. So that is just genuine curiosity, but, um, there's something when you talk about just one -on -one interaction, whether it's Elon or Steve jobs or there's something beautiful about that person's mind. And it feels like it's possible to reveal that, to discover that together efficiently. And that's kind of the goal of a conversation.

WALTER: Well, I mean, look, you're amongst the top podcasters and interviewers in the world today. You have an earnestness to you. Um, Ben Franklin is the person who taught me, I mean, by reading him the most about on conversation. He wrote a wonderful essay on that. It includes on silence. Uh, but it includes trying to ask sincere questions rather than get a point across. I mean, it's somewhat Socratic, but whenever he wondered, I wanted to like start a fireman's core in Philadelphia. He would go to his group that he called the leather apron club and they would pose a question. Why don't we have it? What would it take? What would be good? And then the second part is to make sure that you listen. And if somebody has even just the germ of an idea, give them credit for it. Like as Joe said, you know, the real problem is this, and I do think that if I'm in situations and I just mean even a dinner or something, I'm with somebody, I'm usually curious and I'll, the conversation will proceed, you know, with, with questions. And I guess it's also because I'm pretty interested in what anybody's doing, whoever I happen to be with. And that's a talent you, you have, which is you're pretty genuine in your interests. There are people like Benjamin Franklin, like the, I'll say Charlie Rose, even though he's in disfavor, who are interested in a huge number of subjects. And I think that helps as well to be interested in basketball and opera and physics and metaphysics. Uh, that was a Ben Franklin, that was a Leonardo trick, which is they wanted to know everything you could possibly know about every subject knowable.

LEX: But there's a different aspect of this, which is, um, that I would love to hear how you've solved it or if you faced it, that you're certainly disarming. Uh, see, I'm like, uh, peppering you with compliments here, trying to get you.

WALTER: That's a very disarming method. Yeah. I've recently talked to Benjamin and Yahoo. We'll, we'll talk again. We unfortunately, cause a scheduling and complexities only had one hour, which is very difficult, very difficult with the charismatic politician.

LEX: I understand this, but he's also a charismatic talker, which is very difficult to break through in one hour. Um, but there are people have built up walls, whether it's because of demons or because of, uh, their politicians. And so they have agendas and narratives and so on. And so to break through those, um, I wonder if there's some advice, some wisdom you've learned on how to, uh, sort of wear down through water or whatever, or whatever method, the, the walls that we've built up as individuals.

WALTER: I mean, you call it disarming, which I don't know that I am, but disarming basically means you're taking down their shields also. And you know, when people have a shield and you try to give them comfort, I had zero of that problem with Elon Musk. I mean, it was like disarming to me, which is I kept waiting to say, okay, he's not going to, he's, he's got a shell or he won't do that. But he was, um, almost crazily open and did not seem to, uh, want to be spinning or hiding or faking things. Um, and I've been lucky. Doudna was that way. Steve Jobs was that way, which you have to put in time too. In other words, um, you can't say, okay, there's a one hour interview and I'm going to break down every wall. It's like on your fifth visit.

LEX: One of the things in my situation, you learn fifth visit is very nice, but sometimes you don't get a fifth visit. Sometimes it's just the first date. And, um, I think what it boils down to, and we said disarming, but there's something about this person that you trust. I think a lot of it just boils down to trust in some deep human way. And I think, uh, with, with, uh, with many of the people I've spoken with, sometimes the trust happens like after the interview, which is really sad because it's like, oh man, I've never been in your situation where I have a show.

WALTER: I usually have. Second, I'm not a first date person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, but then I'm lucky. I mean, I'm in, I say lucky, but I'm in print, you know, print is a couple thousand year old medium, but there are those of us who love it.

LEX: Well, the nature of the podcast medium is that I'm a one, one night stand kind of girl. Uh, let me ask you about objectivity. You followed Elon and you follow Steve. Like you're, I mean, I don't even know if you would say your friend, you have to be careful with words like that, but you're, there's an intimacy. Um, and how do you remain objective? Do you want to remain objective while telling a deeply human story?

WALTER: Yeah. I mean, I want to be honest, which I think is akin to being objective. Uh, I try to keep in mind who's, who am I writing for? I'm not writing for Elon Musk. As I say, I haven't sent him the book. I don't know if he, I don't think he's read it yet. Um, I've got one person I'm writing for the open minded reader. And if I can put in a story and say, well, that will piss off the subject or that will really make the subject happy. That's irrelevant. Or I try to make that a minor consideration. It's will the reader have a better understanding because I've put this story in the book.

LEX: I'm a bit of a romantic. So to me, even your Einstein book had lessons on romance and relationships. Oh dear. So how important are romantic relationships to the success of a great men, great women, great minds?

WALTER: Well sometimes people who affect the course of humanity have better relationships with humanity than they do with the humans sitting around them. Einstein had two interesting relationships with wives. His, you know, Maleva, his first wife was a sounding board and help with the mathematics of the special relativity paper in particular. Um, but he didn't treat her well. I mean, he, uh, made her like sign a letter that she wouldn't interrupt him. She wouldn't, you know, and finally when she wanted a divorce, he couldn't afford it because he was still a patent clerk. And so, uh, he offered her a deal, which is I think totally amazing. He said, one of these days, one of those papers from 1905 is going to win the Nobel prize. If we get a divorce, uh, you know, I'll give you the money. Um, that was a lot of money back then, like a million dollars now or something. And she's smart. She's a scientist. She consults with a few other scientists. And after a week or so she takes the bet. Is that until what, 1919 that he wins his Nobel prize? Uh, and she gets all the money. She buys three apartment buildings in Zurich. Uh, with his second wife, Elsa, it was more a partnership of convenience. It was not a romantic love, but he knew, and that's sometimes what people need in life is just a partner. I mean, somebody who's going to handle the stuff you're not going to handle. So I guess if you look at my books, they're not great inspiring guides to personal relationships.

LEX: Let me ask you about actually the process of writing itself. When you've observed, when you've listened, when you've collected all the information, what's, uh, maybe even just the silly mundane question of, uh, what do you eat for breakfast before you start writing?

WALTER: When do you write? First of all, breakfast is not my favorite meal. And those people who tell you that you have to start with a hearty breakfast, I look askance. Yes. Uh, and morning is not my favorite day part. So I write at night and because I love narrative, it's easy to structure a book, which is I can make a outline that if I printed it out or notes would be a hundred pages, but everything's in order. In other words, if we serve, if there's a burning man and he's coming back from Grimes and then there's a solar roof thing, and then there's something, I put it all in order day by day as an outline. And that disciplines me when I'm starting to write to follow the mantra from Alice Mayhew, my first editor, which is all things in good time. Don't get ahead of the story. Don't have to flash back. Um, and then after you get it so that it's all chronological, you know, things, then you have to do some clustering. You know, you have to say, okay, we're going to do the decision to do Starship or to build a factory in Texas or to whatever. And then you sometimes have the organizational problem of, yeah, and that gets us all the way up to here. Do I keep that in this, that chapter or do I wait until later when it's better chronologically? But those are easy.

LEX: Well, what about the actual process of telling the story?

WALTER: Well, that's the mantra I mentioned earlier, which is whenever I get pause or I don't know how to say something, I just say, let me tell you a story. And then I find the actual anecdote, the story, the tale that encompasses what I'm trying to convey. And then I don't say what I'm trying to convey. I don't have a transition sentence that says, you know, Elon sometimes changes mind so often he couldn't remember whether he had changed his mind or, you know, you don't, you don't need transition sentences. You just say, all right, here's the point I need to make next. And so you start with a sentence that says, you know, one day in January in the factory in Texas, comma.

LEX: Well, one of the things that I'd love to ask you is for advice for, for young people, to me, first advice would be to read biographies in the sense because they help you understand of all the different ways you can live a life well lived. But from having written biographies, having studied so many great men and women, what advice could you give to people of how to live this, this life?

WALTER: Well, I keep going back to the classics and Plato and Aristotle and Socrates. And I guess it's Plato's maxim, but he may be quoting Socrates, that the unexamined life is not worth living. And it gets back to the know thyself, which is you don't have to figure out what is the big meaning of it all, but you have to figure out why you're doing what you're doing. And that requires something that I did not have enough of when I was young, which is self -awareness and examining every motive, everything I do.

LEX: Where does the examination lead you? Is it to, to, to a shift in, in life trajectory?

WALTER: I mean, it's not for me sort of, all right, I've now decided having been a journalist, I'll run a think tank or I'll run a network or I'll write a bio. It is actually something that's more useful on an hourly basis. Like, why am I about to say that to somebody or why am I going to do this particular act? What's my true motive here? And also in the broader sense to learn as I did after a couple of years at CNN, I, my examination of my life is that I'm not great at running complex organizations. I'm not great as a manager, given the choice. I'd rather somebody else have to manage me than me have to manage people. But it took me a while to figure that out. And I was probably too ambitious when I was young and at Time Magazine. That was when I was green and, oh, well, that was when I was in my salad days in green and judgment. And it was like chasing the next level at Time Incorporated, whatever it might be. And then one day I caught the brass ring and I became an editor and then the top editor. And after a while I realized that wasn't really totally what I'm suited to be, especially when I got put in charge of CNN. I mean, all young people are almost by definition in their salad days in green and judgment. But you learn what's motivating you. And then you learn to ask, but is that really what I want? Should I be careful of what I'm wishing for?

LEX: One of the big examinations you can do is the fact that you and everybody dies one day. How much do you alter, Isaacson? Think about death. Are you afraid of it?

WALTER: No, and I don't think about it a lot. But I do think about Steve Jobs's, let me tell you a story, which is the wonderful Steve Jobs story of, I think after he was diagnosed, but before it was public. And he gave both a Stanford talk, but other things, in which he said the fact that we are going to die gives you focus and gives you meaning. If you're going to live, and Elon Musk has said that to me, which is a lot of the tech bros out in the Silicon Valley that are looking for ways to live forever. I can think, Musk says, of nothing worse. We read the myth of Sisyphus and we know how bad it is to be condemned to eternal life. So there was an ancient Greece, the person who walked behind the king and said, memento mori, remember you're going to die. And it kept people from losing it a bit. Do you think about legacy? The lucky thing about being a biographer is that you kind of know what your legacy is. There's going to be a shelf and it'll be of interesting people and you will have inspired a 17 year old biology student somewhere to be the next great biochemist or somebody to start a company like Elon Musk. And what I think more about, I won't say giving back, that's such a trite thing. I moved back to New Orleans for a reason. First of all, the hurricane hit. And after Katrina, I was asked to be vice chair of the recovery authority. And I realized everything I've got going for me, it all comes from this beautiful gem of a troubled city. The wonderful high school I went to, the wonderful streets where I learned to ride a bike and it's got challenges. I'm never going to solve challenges at the grand global level, but I can go back home and say part of my legacy is going to be, I tried to pay it back to my hometown, even by teaching at Tulane, which I don't do as a favor. I enjoy the hell out of it, but it's like, all right, I'm part of a community. And I think we lose that in America because people who are lonely are lonely because they're not part of a community. But I've got all my high school kids, friends, they're all still in New Orleans. I've got my family, but I also have Tulane, institutions in New Orleans that have been there forever. And if I can get involved in helping the school system in New Orleans, of helping the youth empowerment programs, of helping the innovation center at Tulane, I was even on the city planning commission, which worries about zoning ordinances for short -term rentals, you know, go figure. But it was like, no, immerse myself in my community because my community was just so awesomely good at allowing me to become who I became and has trouble year by year, hurricane by hurricane, making sure that each new generation can be creative. And it's a city of creativity from jazz to the food, to the architecture. So when I think of, I won't say legacy, but what am I gonna do to pay it forward? Which is a lower level way of saying legacy. I pay it forward by going back to the place where I began and trying to know it for the first time. That was a rip off of a TS Eliot line. I don't want you to think I thought of that one.

LEX: Always cite your sources, I appreciate it.

WALTER: TS Eliot, if you ever need to figure it out, the four quartets, that part at the end, which is we shall not cease from exploration. And the end of all of our exploring will be to return to the place where we started and know it for the first time through the unknown but half remembered gate. It's just beautiful. And that's been an inspiration of what do you do in, I guess if it's a Shakespeare play, you'd call it act five. Well, you go back to the place where you came and don't sit there worrying about legacy, but you'll sit there saying, how do I make sure that somebody else can have a magical trajectory starting in New Orleans?

LEX: Well, to me, you're one of the greatest storytellers of all time. I've been a huge fan.

WALTER: Definitely not true, but it's so sweet of you.

LEX: See, you can be - Brutally interrupting. I think probably Ben Franklin, so for I don't know how many years, 15 years, Einstein all the way through today, I've just been a huge fan of yours. And you're one of the people that I thought surely would not lower themselves to appear and have a conversation with me. And it's just a giant gift to me.

WALTER: Hey, I flew into Austin for this because I am a big fan and especially a big fan because you take people seriously and you care.

LEX: Thank you a thousand times. Thank you for respecting me and for inspiring just millions of people with your stories. Again, an incredible storytelling, incredible human. And thank you for talking today.

WALTER: Thank you, Alex.

LEX: Thanks for listening to this conversation with Walter Isaacson to support this podcast. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Carl Jung. People will do anything, no matter how absurd, in order to avoid facing their own souls. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

Transcription subtitles:

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I hope with my books I'm saying

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this isn't a how-to guide,

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but this is somebody you can walk alongside.

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You can see

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Einstein growing up Jewish in Germany.

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You can see Jennifer Doudna growing up

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as an outsider or Leonardo da Vinci or Elon Musk in really violent South Africa

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with a

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psychologically difficult father.

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And getting off the train when he goes to anti-apartheid

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concert with his brother and there's

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a man with a knife sticking out of his head and they step

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into the pool of blood and it's sticking on their souls.

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This causes

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scars

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that last the rest of your life.

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And the question is not

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how do you avoid getting scarred?

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It's how do you deal with it?

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The following is a conversation with Walter Isaacson,

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one of the greatest biography writers ever.

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Having written incredible books on Albert Einstein,

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Steve Jobs,

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Leonardo da Vinci,

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Jennifer Doudna, Benjamin Franklin,

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Henry Kissinger,

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and now a new one on Elon Musk.

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We talked for hours on and off the mic.

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I'm sure we'll talk many more times.

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Walter is a truly special writer, thinker, observer,

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and human being.

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I highly recommend people read his new book on Elon.

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I'm sure there will be short-term controversy,

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but

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in the long term I think it will inspire millions of young people,

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especially with difficult childhoods,

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with hardship in their surroundings or in their own minds,

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to take on the hardest problems in the

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world and to build solutions to those problems,

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no matter how impossible the odds.

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In this conversation,

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Walter and I cover all of his books and use personal stories from them to

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speak to the bigger principles of striving for greatness in science,

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in tech,

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engineering, art,

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politics,

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and life.

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There are many things in the new Elon book that I felt are best saved

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for when I speak to Elon directly again on this podcast,

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which will be soon enough.

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Perhaps it's also good to mention here that my friendships like with Elon,

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nor any other influence like money, access, fame, power will ever result in me sacrificing my integrity,

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ever.

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I do like to celebrate the good in people,

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to empathize and to understand,

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but I also like to call people out on their bullshit

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with respect and with compassion.

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If I fail,

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I fail due to a lack of skill,

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not a lack of integrity.

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I'll work hard to improve.

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This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

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To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

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And now, dear friends,

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here's Walter Isaacson.

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What is the role of a difficult childhood in the lives of great men and women, great minds?

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Is that a requirement?

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Is it a catalyst or is it just a simple coincidence of fate?

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Well, it's not a requirement.

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Some people with happy childhoods who do quite well,

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but it certainly is true that a lot of really driven people are driven because they're harnessing

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the demons of their childhood.

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Even Barack Obama's sentence in his memoirs,

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which is, I think every successful man is either trying to live up to the expectations of his father

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or live down the sins of his father.

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And for Elon, it's especially true because he had

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both a violent and difficult childhood and a very psychologically problematic father.

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He's got those demons dancing around in his head

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and by harnessing them,

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it's

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part of the reason

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that he does riskier, more adventurous,

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wilder

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things than maybe I would ever do.

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I've written that Elon talked about his father

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and that at times it felt like mental torture,

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the interaction with him during his childhood.

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Can you describe some of the

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things you've learned?

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Yeah, well, Elon and Kimball would tell me that,

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for example,

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when Elon got bullied on the playground

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and one day was pushed down some concrete steps and had his face pummeled

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so badly that Kimball said,

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I couldn't really recognize him.

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I mean, he was in the hospital

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for almost a week.

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But when he came home,

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Elon had to stand in front of his father and his

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father berated him for more than an hour

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and said he was stupid and took the side of the

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person who had beaten him.

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That's probably one of the more traumatic events of Elon's life.

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Yes.

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And there's also veld school,

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which is a sort of paramilitary camp that young South

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African boys got sent to.

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And at one point,

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he was scrawny.

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He has very bad at picking up social cues

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and emotional cues.

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He talks about being Asperger's.

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And so he gets traumatized at a camp like that.

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But the second time he went,

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he'd gotten bigger.

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He had shot up to almost six feet and he'd learned

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a little bit of judo.

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And he realized that if he was getting beaten up,

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it might hurt him,

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but he would just punch the person in the nose as hard as possible.

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So that

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sense of always punching back

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has also been ingrained in Elon.

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I spent a lot of time talking to Errol Musk,

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his father.

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Elon doesn't talk to Errol Musk anymore, his father,

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nor does Kimball.

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It's been years.

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And Errol doesn't even have Elon's email.

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So a lot of times,

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Errol will be sending me emails.

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And Errol had one of those

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Jekyll and Hyde personalities.

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He was

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a great mind of engineering and especially material science.

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I knew how to build a wilderness camp in South Africa using mica and how it would not conduct the heat.

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But he also would go into these dark periods

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in which he would just be psychologically abusive.

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And of course,

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May Musk says to me,

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his mother who divorced Errol early on said,

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the danger for Elon is that he becomes his father.

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And every now and then you've been with him so

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much, Lex, and you know him well.

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He'll even talk to you about the demons,

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about Diablo dancing in

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his head.

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I mean, he gets it, he's self-aware,

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but you've probably seen him at times where

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those demons take over and he goes really dark and really quiet.

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And Grimes

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says, I can tell a

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minute or two in advance when demon mode is about to happen.

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And he'll go a bit dark.

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I was here at

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Austin once at dinner with a group.

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And you could tell suddenly something had triggered him

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and he was going to go dark.

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I've watched it in meetings where somebody will say,

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we can't make that part

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for less than $200 or no, that's wrong.

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And he'll berate them.

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And then he snaps out of it.

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As you know that too, the huge snap out where suddenly he's showing you a Monty Python skit on his phone and

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he's joking about things.

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So I think coming out of the childhood,

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there were just many facets,

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maybe even many personalities, the engineering mode,

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the silly mode, the charismatic mode, the visionary mode,

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but also the demon in dark mode.

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A quote you cited about Elon really stood out to me.

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I forget who it was from,

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but inside the man,

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he's still there as a child,

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the child standing in front of his dad.

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That was Tallulah,

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his second wife.

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And she's great.

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She's an English actress.

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They've been married twice actually.

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And Tallulah said that's just him from his childhood.

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He's a drama addict.

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Kimball says that as well.

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And I asked why.

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And Tallulah said

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for him,

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love and family

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are kind of associated with those psychological torments.

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And in many ways,

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he'll channel.

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I mean, Tallulah would be with him in 2008 when the company was going bankrupt or whatever it may

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have been or later.

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And he would be so stressed, he would vomit.

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And then he would channel things

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that his father had said,

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use phrases his father had said to him.

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And so she told me,

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deep inside the man is this man child still standing in front of his father.

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To what degree is that true for many of us, do you think?

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I think it's true,

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but in many different ways.

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I'll say something personal,

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which is I was

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blessed and perhaps it's a bit of a downside too,

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with the fact that I had the greatest

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father you could ever imagine and mother.

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They were the kindest people you'd ever want to

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meet.

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I grew up in a magical place in New Orleans.

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My dad was an engineer, an electrical engineer.

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And he was always kind.

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Perhaps

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I'm not quite as driven or as crazed.

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I don't have to prove things.

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So I get to write about Elon Musk.

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00:09:30,660 --> 00:09:33,840
I get to write about Einstein or Steve Jobs

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or Leonardo da Vinci,

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who as you know,

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00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,320
was totally torn by demons and had different difficult

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childhood situations, not even legitimized by his father.

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So sometimes those of us who are lucky

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enough to have really gentle,

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sweet childhood,

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we grow up with fewer demons,

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but we grow up with

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fewer drives and we end up maybe

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being Boswell and not being Dr.

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Johnson.

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We end up being the observer,

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not being the doer.

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And so I always respect those who are in the arena.

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You don't see yourself as a man in the arena.

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I've had

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a gentle,

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sweet career

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and I've got to cover really interesting people,

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but I've never shot off a rocket that might someday get to Mars.

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I've never moved us into

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the air of electric vehicles.

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I've never stayed up all night on the factory floor.

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I don't have quite those

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either the drives or the

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addiction to risk.

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I mean, Elon's addicted to risk.

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He's addicted to adventure.

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00:10:51,260 --> 00:10:53,820
Me, if I see something that's risky,

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I spend some time calculating,

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okay, upside down side here.

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But that's another reason that people like Elon Musk get stuff done

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00:11:05,740 --> 00:11:08,440
and people like me write about the Elon Musk's.

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One other aspect of this,

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given a difficult childhood,

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00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,940
whether it's Elon or DaVinci,

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I wonder if there's some wisdom,

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00:11:21,740 --> 00:11:24,500
some advice almost that you can draw,

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00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,280
that you can give to people with difficult childhoods.

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I think all of us have demons,

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even those of us who grew up in a magical part of New

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Orleans with sweet parents.

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We all have demons.

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Rule one in life is harness your demons.

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Know that you're ambitious or not ambitious or you're lazy or whatever.

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Leonardo DaVinci knew he was a procrastinator.

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I think

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it's useful to know

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00:11:58,440 --> 00:11:59,840
what's eaten at you,

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know how to harness it.

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Also know what you're good at.

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I'll take Musk as another example.

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I'm a little bit more like Kimball Musk

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00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:13,380
than Elon.

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I maybe got over endowed with the empathy gene.

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What does that mean?

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00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:19,900
Well,

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00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,220
it means that I was okay when I ran Time Magazine.

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It was a group of about 150 people on the editorial floors and

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I knew them all and

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we had a jolly time.

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When I went to CNN,

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I was not very good

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00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,360
at being a manager or an executive of an organization.

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I cared a little bit too much

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that people didn't get annoyed at me or mad at me.

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00:12:47,020 --> 00:12:48,960
Elon said that about John McNeil,

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00:12:49,140 --> 00:12:51,160
for example, who was president of Tesla.

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00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:52,440
It's in the book.

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00:12:52,580 --> 00:12:54,300
I talked to John McNeil a long time

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and he says,

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00:12:56,850 --> 00:12:58,080
Elon just

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00:12:58,600 --> 00:12:59,600
would fire people.

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00:12:59,740 --> 00:13:01,080
He really rough on people.

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00:13:01,380 --> 00:13:04,400
He didn't have the empathy for the people in front of him.

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00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,240
Elon says, yeah, that's right.

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00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:08,780
John McNeil couldn't fire people.

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He cared more about pleasing the people in front of him

295
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,160
than pleasing the entire enterprise or getting things done.

296
00:13:16,740 --> 00:13:22,600
Being over endowed with a desire to please people can make you less tough of a manager.

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00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,800
That doesn't mean there aren't great people who are over endowed.

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00:13:28,140 --> 00:13:28,820
Ben Franklin,

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00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,020
over endowed with the desire to please people.

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00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:38,330
The worst criticism of him from John Adams and others was that he was insinuating,

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00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,620
which meant he was always trying to

302
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,160
get people to like him.

303
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,320
But that turned out to be a good thing when they can't figure out the big state,

304
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,480
little state issue at the Constitutional Convention,

305
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,660
when they can't figure out the Treaty of Paris, whatever it is,

306
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,940
he brings people together and that is his superpower.

307
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:02,020
So to get back to the lessons you asked,

308
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,800
and the first was harness your demons.

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00:14:05,780 --> 00:14:09,080
The second is to know your strengths and your superpower.

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00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:11,840
My superpower

311
00:14:12,460 --> 00:14:14,120
is definitely not being a tough manager.

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00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,980
After running CNN for a while, I said, okay,

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00:14:17,580 --> 00:14:19,280
I got proven I don't really

314
00:14:19,300 --> 00:14:21,120
enjoy this or know how to do this well.

315
00:14:22,060 --> 00:14:25,340
Do I have other talents?

316
00:14:25,420 --> 00:14:26,120
Yeah, I think I have

317
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,820
the talent to observe people really closely,

318
00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,760
to write about it in a straight,

319
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:34,220
but I hope interesting narrative style.

320
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:35,380
That's a power.

321
00:14:35,780 --> 00:14:37,760
It's totally different from running an organization.

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00:14:38,140 --> 00:14:46,840
It took me until three years of running CNN that I realized I'm not cut to be an executive in a really

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00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:48,900
high intense

324
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,400
situations.

325
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,860
Elon Musk is cut to be an executive in highly intense

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00:14:55,860 --> 00:14:59,480
situations so much so that when things get less intense,

327
00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:02,360
when they actually are making enough cars and

328
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:05,400
rockets are going up and landing,

329
00:15:06,340 --> 00:15:08,500
he thinks of something else so he can surge

330
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:09,660
and have more intensity.

331
00:15:09,860 --> 00:15:15,220
He's addicted to intensity and that's his superpower,

332
00:15:15,260 --> 00:15:18,320
which is a lot greater than the superpower of being a good observer.

333
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:19,920
But I think also

334
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,040
to build on that,

335
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:23,600
it's not just addiction

336
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,440
to risk and drama.

337
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,560
There's always a big mission

338
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:30,940
above it.

339
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:38,240
So I would say it's an empathy towards people in the big picture.

340
00:15:39,180 --> 00:15:43,480
It's an empathy towards humanity more than the empathy towards

341
00:15:44,020 --> 00:15:45,080
the three or four humans

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00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,280
who might be sitting in the conference room with you.

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00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:49,120
And that's a big deal.

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00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:50,900
You see that in a lot

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00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:51,220
of people.

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00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,500
You see it, Bill Gates, Larry Summers,

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00:15:56,020 --> 00:15:56,560
Elon Musk.

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00:15:57,660 --> 00:16:01,500
They always have empathy for these

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00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,600
great goals of humanity.

350
00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:09,800
And at times they can be clueless about the emotions of the people in front

351
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:11,200
of them or callous sometimes.

352
00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:13,640
Musk, as you said,

353
00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:18,640
is driven by mission more than any person I've ever seen.

354
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:20,840
And it's not only mission,

355
00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:22,220
it's like cosmic missions,

356
00:16:23,420 --> 00:16:25,420
meaning he's got three really big

357
00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:26,460
missions.

358
00:16:26,900 --> 00:16:27,400
One

359
00:16:28,180 --> 00:16:31,400
is to make humans a spacefaring civilization,

360
00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:35,400
make us multi-planetary or get us to Mars.

361
00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:39,760
Number two is to bring us into the era of sustainable energy,

362
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,780
to bring us into the era of electric vehicles and solar roofs and

363
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:46,260
battery packs.

364
00:16:47,020 --> 00:16:48,300
And third is to make

365
00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:50,520
sure that artificial intelligence

366
00:16:51,060 --> 00:16:53,700
is safe and is aligned with human values.

367
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,820
And every now and then I'd talk to him and we'd be talking about Starlink satellites or whatever.

368
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,960
Or he would be pushing the people in front of him at SpaceX

369
00:17:04,540 --> 00:17:05,680
and saying, if you do this,

370
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:06,640
we'll never get to

371
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:07,600
Mars in our lifetime.

372
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,660
And then he would give the lecture how important it was for human consciousness

373
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,500
to get to Mars in our lifetime.

374
00:17:13,980 --> 00:17:17,800
And I'm thinking, okay, this is the pep talk of somebody trying to

375
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:23,060
inspire a team or maybe it's a type of pontification you do on a podcast.

376
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:24,660
But on like the 20th

377
00:17:24,780 --> 00:17:26,460
time I watched him, I realized,

378
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:27,080
okay,

379
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,240
I believe it.

380
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,120
He actually is driven by this.

381
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:32,120
He is

382
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:38,620
frustrated and angry that because of this particular minor engineering decision,

383
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,820
the big mission is not going to be accomplished.

384
00:17:41,940 --> 00:17:42,720
It's not a pep talk.

385
00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:43,960
It's a literal frustration.

386
00:17:45,020 --> 00:17:46,900
And impatience, a frustration.

387
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:55,040
And it's also just probably the most deeply ingrained thing in him

388
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:56,720
is his mission.

389
00:17:57,140 --> 00:18:02,780
He joked at one point to me about how much he loved reading comics as a kid.

390
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:05,220
And he said, all the people in the comic books,

391
00:18:05,980 --> 00:18:07,540
they're trying to save the world,

392
00:18:07,580 --> 00:18:10,760
but they're wearing their underpants on the outside and they look ridiculous.

393
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,140
And then he paused and said,

394
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,220
but they are trying to save the world.

395
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,240
And whether it's Starlink in Ukraine

396
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:24,720
or Starship going to Mars or trying to get a global new Tesla,

397
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:30,120
I think he's got this epic sense of the role he's going to play

398
00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:33,080
in helping humanity on big things.

399
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:35,380
And like

400
00:18:36,060 --> 00:18:38,520
the characters in the comic books,

401
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:40,420
it's sometimes ridiculous,

402
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,060
but it also is sometimes true.

403
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:45,600
When I was reading this part of the book,

404
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,780
I was thinking of all the young people who are

405
00:18:51,140 --> 00:18:52,180
struggling in this way.

406
00:18:52,220 --> 00:18:54,740
And I think a lot of people are in different ways,

407
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,080
whether they grow up without a father,

408
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,280
whether they grow up with physical, emotional, mental abuse

409
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:00,900
or demons of any kind,

410
00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:01,740
as you talked about.

411
00:19:02,220 --> 00:19:04,380
And it's really painful to read,

412
00:19:04,380 --> 00:19:06,460
but also really damn inspiring

413
00:19:07,420 --> 00:19:08,480
that if you

414
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,800
sort of walk side by side with those demons,

415
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,620
if you don't let

416
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:17,480
that pain break you

417
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:19,280
or somehow channel it,

418
00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:20,660
if you can put it this way,

419
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:21,680
that you can achieve,

420
00:19:21,860 --> 00:19:23,340
you can do great things in this world.

421
00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:27,560
Well, that's an epic view of why we write

422
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,420
biography, which is more epic than I'd even thought of.

423
00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:32,900
So I say thank you

424
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,260
because in some ways what you're trying to do is say,

425
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,760
okay, I mean, Leonardo, you talk about being a misfit,

426
00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:42,720
he's born illegitimate

427
00:19:43,540 --> 00:19:48,180
in the village of Vinci and he's gay and he's left-handed and he's distracted

428
00:19:48,980 --> 00:19:51,960
and his father won't legitimize him.

429
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:58,980
And then he wanders off to the town of Florence and he becomes

430
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,720
the greatest artist and engineer

431
00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:03,560
of that part of the Renaissance.

432
00:20:05,220 --> 00:20:06,920
I hope this book inspires.

433
00:20:06,980 --> 00:20:07,820
Jennifer Doudna,

434
00:20:08,660 --> 00:20:12,620
the gene editing pioneer who helps discover CRISPR,

435
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:14,120
gene editing tool,

436
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,540
which my book, The Code Breaker,

437
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,520
she grew up feeling like a misfit in Hawaii,

438
00:20:20,620 --> 00:20:23,860
in a Polynesian village being the only white person

439
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,060
and also trying to live up to a father who pushed her.

440
00:20:27,220 --> 00:20:30,360
So if people can read the books,

441
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:33,060
and I should have said about Jennifer Doudna,

442
00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:36,740
my point was that she was told by her school guidance counselor,

443
00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:38,120
no, girls don't do science.

444
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:39,760
You know, science is not for girls.

445
00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:41,480
You're not going to do math or science.

446
00:20:42,220 --> 00:20:44,900
And so it pushes her to say, all right,

447
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:47,060
I'm going to do math and science.

448
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:48,920
Just to interrupt real quick,

449
00:20:49,740 --> 00:20:50,560
but Jennifer Doudna,

450
00:20:50,940 --> 00:20:54,200
you've written an amazing book about her, Nobel Prize winner,

451
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,200
CRISPR developer, just incredible, one of the great scientists in the 21st century.

452
00:20:58,520 --> 00:20:58,800
Right.

453
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,800
And I'm talking about when Jennifer Doudna was young

454
00:21:02,340 --> 00:21:03,600
and she felt really,

455
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,480
really out of place,

456
00:21:04,780 --> 00:21:08,600
like you and me and a lot of people when they feel in that way,

457
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:09,460
they read books,

458
00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:11,540
they go into the curl up with the book.

459
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,300
So her father drops a book on her bed called The Double Helix,

460
00:21:15,420 --> 00:21:23,240
the book by James Watson on the discovery of the structure of DNA by him and Rosalind Franklin and Francis Crick.

461
00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:27,020
And she realizes, oh my God,

462
00:21:27,660 --> 00:21:29,080
girls can become scientists.

463
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,020
My school guidance counselor is wrong.

464
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,960
So I think books,

465
00:21:36,980 --> 00:21:38,820
like she read this book,

466
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,120
and even if it's a comic book,

467
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,720
like Elon Musk read,

468
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,300
books can sometimes inspire you.

469
00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:48,660
And every one of my books is about people who are

470
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:50,340
totally innovative,

471
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,200
who weren't just smart,

472
00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:54,220
because none of us are going to be

473
00:21:54,220 --> 00:21:57,180
able to match Einstein and mental processing power.

474
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,060
But we can be as curious as he was

475
00:22:01,060 --> 00:22:04,060
and creative and think out of the box the way he did,

476
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,280
or Steve Jobs put it, think different.

477
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,160
And so I hope with my books, I'm saying

478
00:22:11,660 --> 00:22:13,380
this isn't a how-to guide,

479
00:22:13,860 --> 00:22:14,660
but this is somebody

480
00:22:14,660 --> 00:22:15,860
you can walk alongside.

481
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:17,460
You can see

482
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,080
Einstein growing up Jewish in Germany.

483
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:22,740
You can see Jennifer

484
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:28,660
Doudna growing up as an outsider or Leonardo da Vinci or Elon Musk

485
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,580
in really violent South Africa

486
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:34,960
with a psychologically difficult father.

487
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,340
And getting off the train when he goes to anti-apartheid

488
00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:39,500
concert with his brother,

489
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:40,460
and there's

490
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,940
a man with a knife sticking out of his head,

491
00:22:44,340 --> 00:22:47,340
and they step into the pool of blood and it's sticking on their souls.

492
00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:49,580
This causes

493
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,580
scars

494
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,020
that last the rest of your life.

495
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,420
And the question is not

496
00:22:56,940 --> 00:22:59,060
how do you avoid getting scarred?

497
00:22:59,260 --> 00:23:00,820
It's how do you deal with it?

498
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:02,600
Einstein too,

499
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:11,040
one of my, and it's hard to pick my favorite of your biographies, but Einstein,

500
00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:14,320
I mean, you really paint a picture of another,

501
00:23:15,140 --> 00:23:16,440
I don't want to call him a misfit,

502
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:23,000
but a person who doesn't necessarily have a standard trajectory through life of success.

503
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,140
So that's extremely inspiring.

504
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,420
I don't know exactly what question to ask.

505
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:32,000
There's a million.

506
00:23:32,020 --> 00:23:33,980
Well, I'll talk about the misfit for a second,

507
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:36,240
because we talked about Leonardo being that way.

508
00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:41,400
Einstein is Jewish in Germany at a time when it starts getting difficult.

509
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:43,980
He's slow in learning how to talk

510
00:23:44,660 --> 00:23:46,220
and he's a visual thinker.

511
00:23:46,260 --> 00:23:48,400
So he's always daydreaming and imagining things.

512
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,640
The first time he applies to the Zurich polytech,

513
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,800
because he runs away from the German

514
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,180
education system because it's too much learning by rote.

515
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:01,600
He gets rejected by the Zurich polytech.

516
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,160
Now it's the second best school in Zurich and they're rejecting Einstein.

517
00:24:05,260 --> 00:24:06,120
I tried to find,

518
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:10,240
but couldn't the name of the admissions counselor at the Zurich polytech.

519
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:11,960
Like you rejected Einstein.

520
00:24:12,620 --> 00:24:15,660
And then he doesn't finish in the top half of his class.

521
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:17,920
And once he does

522
00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:22,440
and he goes to graduate school, they don't accept his dissertation.

523
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:23,940
So he can't get a job.

524
00:24:23,980 --> 00:24:25,340
He's not teaching it.

525
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:28,560
He even tries about 14 different high schools,

526
00:24:28,780 --> 00:24:31,260
gymnasium to get a job and they

527
00:24:31,260 --> 00:24:31,980
won't take him.

528
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:36,160
So he's a third class examiner in the Swiss patent office in 1905.

529
00:24:36,980 --> 00:24:40,660
Third class because they've rejected his doctoral dissertation.

530
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,120
And so he can't be second class or first class

531
00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:45,620
because he doesn't have a doctoral degree.

532
00:24:46,260 --> 00:24:47,940
And yet he's sitting there in the stool in

533
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,000
the patent office in 1905

534
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:51,420
and writes

535
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:55,760
three papers that totally transform science.

536
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:58,240
And if you're thinking about being

537
00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:02,180
misunderstood or unappreciated in 1906,

538
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:03,040
he's still a third

539
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:03,580
class patent.

540
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,020
In 1907, he still is.

541
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,400
It takes until 1909 before people realized that this

542
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,540
notion of the theory of relativity might be correct and it might upend all of Newtonian physics.

543
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,240
How is it possible

544
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,320
for three of the greatest papers in the history of science to be written

545
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,440
in one year by this one person?

546
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,460
Is there some insights,

547
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,100
wisdoms you draw?

548
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,020
Plus he out of a day job is a patent examiner.

549
00:25:29,140 --> 00:25:30,480
And there's really three papers,

550
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:31,880
but there's also an addendum

551
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,420
because once you figure out quantum theory and then you figure out relativity

552
00:25:36,420 --> 00:25:40,180
and you're understanding Maxwell's equations and the speed of light,

553
00:25:41,140 --> 00:25:42,940
he does a little addendum.

554
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,680
That's the most famous equation in all of physics,

555
00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:48,480
which is E equals MC squared.

556
00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:50,600
So it's a pretty good year.

557
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,900
It partly starts because he's a visual thinker.

558
00:25:54,940 --> 00:25:56,160
And I think it was helpful

559
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:02,800
that he was at the patent office rather than being the acolyte of some professor at the

560
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,980
academy where he was supposed to follow the rules.

561
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,560
And so the patent office said doing

562
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:12,300
devices to synchronize clocks because the Swiss have just gone on standard time zones

563
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,300
and Swiss people, as you know, tend to be rather Swiss.

564
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:16,700
They care if it strikes

565
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:18,480
the hour in Basel,

566
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:20,880
it should do the same and burn at the exact end.

567
00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:24,120
So you have to send a light signal between two distant clocks.

568
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,360
And he's visualizing what it'll look like to ride alongside a light beam.

569
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,900
He says, well, if you catch up with it,

570
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:32,900
if you go almost as fast,

571
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:33,840
it'll look stationary.

572
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,220
But Maxwell's equations

573
00:26:35,780 --> 00:26:36,760
don't allow for that.

574
00:26:36,780 --> 00:26:37,200
And he said,

575
00:26:37,580 --> 00:26:40,440
he's making my palm sweat that I was so worried.

576
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,500
And so he finally figures out because he's looking at these devices to synchronize clocks,

577
00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:48,300
that if you're traveling really, really fast,

578
00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:52,840
what looks synchronous to you or synchronized to you is

579
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,280
different than for somebody traveling really fast in the other direction.

580
00:26:56,900 --> 00:26:58,940
And he makes the mental leap that time

581
00:26:59,940 --> 00:27:02,120
that the speed of light is always constant,

582
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,600
but time is relative depending on your state of motion.

583
00:27:05,220 --> 00:27:08,640
So it was that type of out of the box thinking, those leaps

584
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,140
that made 1905 his miracle year.

585
00:27:12,740 --> 00:27:13,920
Likewise with Musk,

586
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:15,400
I mean,

587
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,000
after General Motors and Ford,

588
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,060
everybody gives up on electric vehicles

589
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:21,740
to just

590
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:22,760
say,

591
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:24,960
I know how we're going to have a path

592
00:27:25,580 --> 00:27:30,660
to change the entire trajectory of the world into the era of electric vehicles.

593
00:27:31,340 --> 00:27:32,840
And then when he comes back from Russia,

594
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:33,980
where he tried to buy

595
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,960
a little rocket ship so he could send a experimental greenhouse to Mars,

596
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,500
and they were poking fun of

597
00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:44,460
them and actually spit on them at one point in a drunken lunch.

598
00:27:45,220 --> 00:27:46,720
This is very fortuitous

599
00:27:47,420 --> 00:27:49,980
because on the ride back home on the plane,

600
00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:52,100
on the Delta Airlines flight,

601
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,960
he's like doing the calculations of how much materials,

602
00:27:56,140 --> 00:27:57,760
how much metal, how much fuel,

603
00:27:58,460 --> 00:28:00,100
how much would it really cost.

604
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:08,200
And so he's visualizing things that other people would just say is impossible.

605
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,180
It's what Steve Jobs' friends called the reality distortion field.

606
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:14,820
And it drove people crazy.

607
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:19,800
It drove them mad, but it also drove them to do things they didn't think they would be able to do.

608
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:21,680
You said visual thinking.

609
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:27,120
I wonder if you've seen parallels of the different styles and kinds of thinking

610
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:34,220
that operate the minds of these people.

611
00:28:34,860 --> 00:28:38,940
So is there parallels you see between Elon, Steve Jobs,

612
00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:40,940
Einstein, Da Vinci,

613
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,460
specifically in

614
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:43,860
how they think?

615
00:28:44,460 --> 00:28:46,480
I think they were all visual thinkers,

616
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:49,320
perhaps coming from slight handicaps as children,

617
00:28:50,180 --> 00:28:54,380
meaning Leonardo was left-handed and a little bit dyslectic, I think.

618
00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:58,340
And certainly Einstein had a callia.

619
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:59,920
He would repeat things.

620
00:28:59,980 --> 00:29:02,020
He was slow in learning to talk.

621
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,980
So I think visualizing helps a lot.

622
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:07,780
And with Musk,

623
00:29:09,140 --> 00:29:12,280
I see it all the time when I'm walking the factory lines with him

624
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,960
or in product development,

625
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,300
where he'll look at,

626
00:29:17,460 --> 00:29:22,680
say, the heat shield under the Raptor engine of a Starship booster.

627
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:26,200
And he'll say, why does it have to be this way?

628
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,400
Couldn't we trim it this way?

629
00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:28,130
Or even

630
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,400
get rid of this part of it.

631
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,000
And he can visualize the material science.

632
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:33,300
There's

633
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:41,120
small anecdotes in my book, but at one point he's on the Tesla line and they're trying to get 5,000 cars

634
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,640
a week in 2018.

635
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:44,560
It's a life or death situation.

636
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,900
And he's looking at the machines that are

637
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,820
bolting something to the chassis.

638
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,780
And Lars Moravey, one of his great lieutenants,

639
00:29:56,060 --> 00:29:58,020
comes and they have to summon him.

640
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:58,360
And he says,

641
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,920
why are there six bolts here?

642
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,120
And Lars and others explained,

643
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,720
well, for the crash tests or anything else,

644
00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:09,240
the pressure would be in this way,

645
00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:09,740
so you have to.

646
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:10,500
And they were blah,

647
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:11,120
blah, blah, blah, blah.

648
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:12,860
And he said, no.

649
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:14,460
If you visualize it,

650
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,600
you'll see if there's a crash,

651
00:30:17,420 --> 00:30:20,500
the force would go this way and that way.

652
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,680
And it can be done with four bolts.

653
00:30:23,940 --> 00:30:25,780
Now that sounds risky.

654
00:30:25,940 --> 00:30:27,560
And they go test it and they engineer it,

655
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:28,420
but it turns out to be right.

656
00:30:28,940 --> 00:30:30,180
I know that seems minor,

657
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,540
but I could give you 500 of those,

658
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:34,620
where in any given day,

659
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,740
he's visualizing the physics

660
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,200
of an engineering or manufacturing problem.

661
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,020
That sounds pretty mundane.

662
00:30:45,020 --> 00:30:45,900
But for me,

663
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,220
if you say what makes him special,

664
00:30:48,580 --> 00:30:50,000
there's a mission driven thing.

665
00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:51,600
I give you a lot of reasons,

666
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:58,180
but one of the reasons is he cares not just about the design of the product,

667
00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:02,760
but visualizing the manufacturing of the product,

668
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,820
the machine that makes the machine.

669
00:31:05,220 --> 00:31:06,220
And that's what we failed to

670
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,660
do in America for the past 40 years.

671
00:31:08,820 --> 00:31:10,240
We outsource so much manufacturing.

672
00:31:10,820 --> 00:31:12,000
I don't think you can

673
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,220
be a good innovator

674
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,540
if you don't know how to make the stuff you're designing.

675
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:23,840
And that's why Musk puts his designer's desk right next to the assembly lines in the factories so

676
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,020
that they have to visualize what they drew

677
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,660
as it becomes the physical object.

678
00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:33,980
So understanding everything from the physics all the way up to the software,

679
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:34,980
it's like end to end.

680
00:31:35,380 --> 00:31:39,260
Well, having an end to end control is important,

681
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,180
certainly with Steve Jobs.

682
00:31:41,660 --> 00:31:42,940
I'm looking at my iPhone here.

683
00:31:43,380 --> 00:31:43,960
It's a big deal.

684
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:50,100
That hardware only works with Apple software and for a while the iTunes store.

685
00:31:52,210 --> 00:31:58,440
So he has an end to end that makes it like a Zen garden in Kyoto, very carefully curated,

686
00:31:58,980 --> 00:31:59,940
but a thing of beauty.

687
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:06,320
For Musk, when he first was at Tesla and before he was the CEO,

688
00:32:06,460 --> 00:32:07,120
when he was just

689
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,280
the executive chairman and

690
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,440
basically the finance person funding it,

691
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:13,820
they were outsourcing everything.

692
00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:18,880
They were making the batteries in Japan and the battery pack would be at some barbecue shop in

693
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:26,180
Thailand and sent to the Lotus factory in England to be put into a Lotus Elise chassis and then mentioned.

694
00:32:26,860 --> 00:32:28,700
That was a nightmare.

695
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,920
You did not have end to end control of the manufacturing process.

696
00:32:33,460 --> 00:32:35,180
So he goes to the other extreme.

697
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:41,040
He gets a factory in Fremont from Toyota and he wants to do everything in-house,

698
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:41,760
the software

699
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,040
in-house,

700
00:32:43,420 --> 00:32:44,580
the painting in-house,

701
00:32:45,620 --> 00:32:48,640
the battery.

702
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:50,480
He makes its own batteries.

703
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,740
And I think that end to end control is part of his personality.

704
00:32:57,660 --> 00:32:58,380
But it

705
00:32:58,980 --> 00:33:01,480
also would allows Tesla

706
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:03,040
to be innovative.

707
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:05,000
Yeah, I got to see

708
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,320
and understand in detail one

709
00:33:10,660 --> 00:33:13,180
example of that, which is the development of the

710
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:14,420
brain of the car

711
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,440
in autopilot, going from mobile eye

712
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,520
to in-house building the autopilot system to

713
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,360
basically getting rid of all sensors that are not

714
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,220
rich in data to make it AI friendly,

715
00:33:31,940 --> 00:33:33,780
sort of saying that we can do it all with vision.

716
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:35,220
And like you said,

717
00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:36,700
removing some of the bolts.

718
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,380
So sometimes it's small things,

719
00:33:38,460 --> 00:33:41,500
but sometimes it's really big things like getting rid of radar.

720
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,720
Well, vision only getting rid of radar is huge

721
00:33:45,540 --> 00:33:47,040
and everybody's against it.

722
00:33:47,220 --> 00:33:48,900
Everybody. And that's still fighting it a bit.

723
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,620
They're still trying to do a next generation,

724
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:52,360
some form of radar,

725
00:33:52,620 --> 00:33:54,320
but it gets back

726
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:55,220
to the first principles.

727
00:33:55,820 --> 00:33:56,940
We're talking about visualizing.

728
00:33:57,500 --> 00:33:58,180
Well, he starts

729
00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:00,720
with the first principles

730
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,780
and the first principles of physics involve things like what humans drive with only

731
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:08,240
visual input.

732
00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:09,580
They don't have radar.

733
00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:10,560
They don't have LIDAR.

734
00:34:10,620 --> 00:34:11,580
They don't have sonar.

735
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:12,780
And so

736
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:19,520
there was no reason in the laws of physics that make it so that vision only

737
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:22,520
won't be successful in creating self-driving.

738
00:34:23,340 --> 00:34:26,940
Now that becomes an article of faith to him and he

739
00:34:26,940 --> 00:34:28,120
gets a lot of pushback.

740
00:34:31,020 --> 00:34:32,040
And he's by the way,

741
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,540
not been that successful in meeting his deadlines of

742
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,300
getting self-driving.

743
00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:38,040
He's way too optimistic,

744
00:34:39,180 --> 00:34:43,880
but it was that first principles of get rid of unnecessary things.

745
00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:45,920
Now you would think LIDAR,

746
00:34:45,980 --> 00:34:46,900
why not use it?

747
00:34:46,980 --> 00:34:48,060
Like why not use a crush?

748
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,260
It's like, yeah, we can do things vision only,

749
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:52,200
but when I look at the stars at night,

750
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,700
I use a telescope too.

751
00:34:54,420 --> 00:34:54,800
Well,

752
00:34:55,140 --> 00:34:56,240
you could use LIDAR,

753
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,200
but you can't do millions of cars that way at scale.

754
00:34:59,340 --> 00:35:00,260
At a certain point,

755
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,660
you have to make it not only a good product,

756
00:35:02,820 --> 00:35:04,880
but a product that goes to scale.

757
00:35:05,380 --> 00:35:05,920
And you can't make

758
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,820
it based on maps like Google maps,

759
00:35:07,940 --> 00:35:12,680
because it'll never be able to then drive from New Orleans to

760
00:35:12,770 --> 00:35:16,220
Slidell where I want to go when it's too hot in New Orleans.

761
00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:19,300
Take for example, full self-drive.

762
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:23,600
He has been obsessed with what he calls the robo taxi.

763
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:25,620
We're going to build the next generation

764
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,360
car without a steering wheel,

765
00:35:28,340 --> 00:35:28,980
without pedals,

766
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:31,080
because it's going to be full self-drive.

767
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:31,840
You just summon it.

768
00:35:32,260 --> 00:35:34,040
You won't need to drive it.

769
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:35,580
Well, over and over again,

770
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:37,220
all these people I've told you about,

771
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,740
Lars Morave and Drew Baglino and others,

772
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:45,060
they're saying, okay, fine, that sounds really good, but it ain't happened yet.

773
00:35:45,540 --> 00:35:50,980
We need to build a $25,000 mass market global car that's just normal

774
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:51,840
with a steering wheel.

775
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:57,760
And yeah, he finally turned around a few months ago and said,

776
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:58,880
let's do it.

777
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:02,320
And then he starts focusing on how's the assembly line going to work?

778
00:36:02,380 --> 00:36:07,340
How are we going to do it and make it the same platform for robo taxi so you can have the same assembly on.

779
00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:08,440
Likewise,

780
00:36:08,940 --> 00:36:09,860
for full self-drive,

781
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,880
they were doing it by coding hundreds of thousands of lines of code

782
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:16,320
that would say things like,

783
00:36:16,460 --> 00:36:17,420
if you see a red light,

784
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:17,960
stop.

785
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,180
If there's a blinking light, if there's two yellow lines, do this.

786
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:22,500
If there's a bike lane,

787
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:22,980
do this.

788
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,520
If there's a crosswalk, do that.

789
00:36:25,020 --> 00:36:27,160
Well, that's really hard to do.

790
00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:29,620
Naly's doing it through artificial

791
00:36:29,620 --> 00:36:32,020
intelligence and machine learning only.

792
00:36:32,460 --> 00:36:36,400
FSD12 will be based on the billion or so

793
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:37,480
frames

794
00:36:38,140 --> 00:36:41,100
from Tesla each week of Tesla drivers and saying,

795
00:36:41,460 --> 00:36:43,360
what happened when a human was in this situation?

796
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:44,420
What did the human do?

797
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:46,000
And let's only pick the best humans,

798
00:36:46,180 --> 00:36:47,500
the five-star drivers,

799
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,500
the Uber drivers, as Elon says.

800
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:56,160
And so that's him changing his mind and going to first principles,

801
00:36:56,860 --> 00:36:57,620
but saying,

802
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,400
all right, I'm even going to change full self-driving.

803
00:37:01,060 --> 00:37:02,400
So that's not rules-based.

804
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,380
It becomes AI-based.

805
00:37:04,860 --> 00:37:08,700
Just like ChatGPT doesn't try to answer your question,

806
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:09,800
who are the five best

807
00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:13,040
popes or something by studying?

808
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:19,960
ChatGPT does it by having ingested billions of

809
00:37:20,580 --> 00:37:22,520
pieces of writing that people have done.

810
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:23,980
This will be AI,

811
00:37:24,180 --> 00:37:26,400
but real world done by ingesting video.

812
00:37:26,860 --> 00:37:30,260
Sometimes it feels like he and others,

813
00:37:31,180 --> 00:37:32,860
they're building things in this world successfully,

814
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,900
are basically confidently exploring a dark room

815
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,320
with a very confident,

816
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,080
ambitious vision of what that room actually looks like.

817
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,320
They're just walking straight into the darkness.

818
00:37:49,180 --> 00:37:51,840
There's no painful toys or Legos on the ground.

819
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,120
I'm just going to walk.

820
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:54,900
I know exactly how far the wall is.

821
00:37:55,580 --> 00:37:59,080
And then very quickly willing to adjust as they run into,

822
00:37:59,420 --> 00:38:00,180
they step on the

823
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,460
Lego and their body is filled with a lot of pain.

824
00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:09,400
What I mean by that is there's this kind of evolution that seems to happen where you

825
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,240
discover really good ideas along the way that allow you to pivot.

826
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:15,260
Like to me,

827
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,420
since a few years ago,

828
00:38:20,460 --> 00:38:22,880
when you could see with Andrei Karpathy,

829
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,000
the software 2.0 evolution of autopilot,

830
00:38:26,420 --> 00:38:29,740
it became obvious to me that this is not about the car.

831
00:38:30,540 --> 00:38:32,520
This is about optimus, the robot.

832
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,640
If we look back a hundred years from now,

833
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,820
the car will be remembered as a cool car, nice transportation,

834
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,760
but the autopilot won't

835
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,460
be the thing that controls the car.

836
00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:50,300
It will be the thing that allows embodied AI systems

837
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,540
to understand the world.

838
00:38:52,940 --> 00:38:53,560
So broadly,

839
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:57,420
that kind of approach and you kind of stumble into

840
00:38:57,500 --> 00:38:57,700
it.

841
00:38:57,980 --> 00:39:00,620
Will Tesla be a car company?

842
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:02,680
Will it be an AI company?

843
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:04,580
Will it be a robotics company?

844
00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:06,680
Will it be a home robotics company?

845
00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:08,260
Will it be an energy company?

846
00:39:08,420 --> 00:39:09,440
And then you kind of

847
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:16,820
slowly discover this as you confidently push forward with a vision.

848
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,880
It's interesting to watch that kind of evolution as long as it's backed by this confidence.

849
00:39:22,010 --> 00:39:25,300
There are a couple of things that are required for that.

850
00:39:25,620 --> 00:39:27,020
One is being adventurous.

851
00:39:27,380 --> 00:39:32,800
One doesn't enter a dark room without a flashlight and a map unless you're a risk taker, unless you're adventurous.

852
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:42,420
The second is to have iterative brain cycles where you can process information and do a feedback loop

853
00:39:42,420 --> 00:39:43,080
and make it work.

854
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:49,880
The third, and this is what we failed to do a lot in the United States and perhaps around the world,

855
00:39:50,940 --> 00:39:53,300
is when you take risks,

856
00:39:54,140 --> 00:39:56,260
you have to realize you're going to blow things up.

857
00:39:57,980 --> 00:39:59,380
First three rockets,

858
00:40:00,620 --> 00:40:02,520
the Falcon rockets that NASA does,

859
00:40:03,260 --> 00:40:04,460
they blow up.

860
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,400
Even Starship, three and a half minutes,

861
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:08,160
but then it blows up the first time.

862
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,620
So I think Boeing and NASA and others have become

863
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:18,880
unwilling to enter your dark room without knowing exactly where the exit is

864
00:40:19,020 --> 00:40:21,000
and the lighted path to the exit.

865
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:25,820
And the people who created America whenever they came over,

866
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:30,600
whether the Mayflower is refugees from the Nazis,

867
00:40:31,260 --> 00:40:33,280
they took a lot of risks to get here.

868
00:40:33,860 --> 00:40:36,140
And now I think we have

869
00:40:36,740 --> 00:40:40,220
more referees than we have risk takers,

870
00:40:41,020 --> 00:40:45,600
more lawyers and regulators and others

871
00:40:45,620 --> 00:40:47,620
saying you can't do that, that's too risky,

872
00:40:48,140 --> 00:40:49,600
than people willing to innovate.

873
00:40:50,060 --> 00:40:50,720
And you need both.

874
00:40:51,820 --> 00:40:55,060
I think you're also right on 50,

875
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,640
100 years from now,

876
00:40:57,860 --> 00:41:01,000
what Musk will be most remembered for besides

877
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:02,100
space travel

878
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,300
is real world AI.

879
00:41:05,780 --> 00:41:07,860
Not just Optimus the robot,

880
00:41:08,020 --> 00:41:10,660
but Optimus the robot and the self-driving car,

881
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,440
they're pretty much the same.

882
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:20,100
They're using GPU clusters or dojo chips or whatever it may be

883
00:41:20,420 --> 00:41:22,020
to process real world data.

884
00:41:22,620 --> 00:41:24,840
We all got, and you did on your podcast,

885
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,800
quite excited about large language model,

886
00:41:28,660 --> 00:41:32,300
generative predictive text AI.

887
00:41:32,980 --> 00:41:33,640
That's fine,

888
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,200
especially if you want to

889
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:36,640
chit chat with your chat bot.

890
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,980
But the Holy grail is artificial general intelligence.

891
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,480
And the tough part of that is real world AI.

892
00:41:45,340 --> 00:41:52,680
And that's where Optimus the robot or full self-drive are, I think,

893
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:54,120
far ahead

894
00:41:54,660 --> 00:41:56,200
of anybody else.

895
00:41:57,580 --> 00:41:57,920
Well,

896
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:00,340
I like how you said chit chat.

897
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,320
I would say for one of the greatest

898
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:11,560
writers ever, it's funny that you spoke about language and the mastery of languages as merely chit chat.

899
00:42:12,420 --> 00:42:14,600
People have fallen in love over some words.

900
00:42:14,780 --> 00:42:16,260
People have gone to wars over

901
00:42:16,260 --> 00:42:16,720
some words.

902
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,380
I think words have a lot of power.

903
00:42:18,780 --> 00:42:21,040
It's actually an interesting question where

904
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,380
the wisdom of the world,

905
00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:26,460
the wisdom of humanity is in words or is it in visuals,

906
00:42:26,740 --> 00:42:27,380
is it in the physical?

907
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,680
I don't really- It's in mathematics.

908
00:42:31,180 --> 00:42:33,060
Maybe it all boils down to math and in the end,

909
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:35,780
this kind of discussion about real world

910
00:42:35,780 --> 00:42:38,660
AI versus language is all the same, maybe.

911
00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:42,480
I've gotten a chance to hang out quite a bit

912
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,180
in the metaverse with Mr.

913
00:42:44,260 --> 00:42:49,900
Mark Zuckerberg recently and boy is the realism in there.

914
00:42:50,580 --> 00:42:54,640
The thing that's coming up in the future is incredible.

915
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,120
I got scanned in Pittsburgh

916
00:42:59,900 --> 00:43:01,000
for 10 hours.

917
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:08,660
I went into the metaverse and there's a virtual version of me and I got to hang out with that virtual version.

918
00:43:09,260 --> 00:43:10,160
Do you like yourself?

919
00:43:10,860 --> 00:43:12,960
Well, I never liked myself,

920
00:43:14,020 --> 00:43:16,780
but it was easier to like that other

921
00:43:17,460 --> 00:43:17,820
guy.

922
00:43:18,260 --> 00:43:19,020
That was interesting.

923
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:19,920
Does he like you?

924
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,900
He doesn't seem to care much.

925
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:24,960
That's the lack of the empathy.

926
00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:32,500
It made me start to question even more than before,

927
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,760
how important is this physical reality?

928
00:43:36,860 --> 00:43:42,200
Because I got to see myself and other people in that metaverse,

929
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:44,380
the details of the face,

930
00:43:45,740 --> 00:43:49,220
all the things that you think,

931
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,240
maybe if you look at yourself in the mirror are imperfections,

932
00:43:52,260 --> 00:43:53,080
all this kind of stuff.

933
00:43:53,980 --> 00:43:55,880
When I was looking at myself and at others,

934
00:43:56,020 --> 00:43:57,200
all of those things are beautiful.

935
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:57,760
It

936
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:04,520
was real and it was intense and it was scary because

937
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:05,400
you're like,

938
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:06,480
well, are you allowed to

939
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:07,700
murder people in the metaverse?

940
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,440
Because what are you allowed to do?

941
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:13,480
Because you can replicate

942
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:14,620
a lot of those things and

943
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:19,360
you start to question what are the fundamental things that make life

944
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,440
worth living here as we know it's humans.

945
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:24,680
Have you talked to Elon about his views of

946
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,220
what living in a simulation may be and how you would figure out if that's true?

947
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,020
Yes, there's a constant lighthearted,

948
00:44:31,140 --> 00:44:33,320
but also a serious sense

949
00:44:34,140 --> 00:44:35,720
that this is all a bit of a game.

950
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:37,420
One of my theories

951
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,760
on Elon, a minor theory,

952
00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:43,720
is that he read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy once too often.

953
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:52,580
As you know, there's a scene in there that says that there's a theory about the universe

954
00:44:53,060 --> 00:44:56,960
that if anybody ever discovers the secrets of meanings of the universe,

955
00:44:57,340 --> 00:44:58,420
it will be replaced

956
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,620
by an even more complex universe.

957
00:45:00,820 --> 00:45:03,440
Then the next line Douglas Adams writes is,

958
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,360
there's another theory that this has already happened.

959
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,800
I'm not trying to get my head around

960
00:45:08,820 --> 00:45:11,400
that, but I know that Elon Musk tries to.

961
00:45:11,780 --> 00:45:13,440
There's a humor to that.

962
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,440
There's an enormous humor to Hitchhiker's Guide.

963
00:45:16,980 --> 00:45:21,780
I really think that helped Musk out of the darkest of his periods to have

964
00:45:21,780 --> 00:45:24,800
the sense of fun of figuring out what life is all about.

965
00:45:25,140 --> 00:45:27,120
I wonder if there's a smaller side we could say,

966
00:45:28,260 --> 00:45:32,440
just having gotten to know Elon very well, the silliness,

967
00:45:33,460 --> 00:45:36,300
the willingness to engage in the absurdity of it all

968
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:37,780
and have fun.

969
00:45:38,940 --> 00:45:39,480
What is that?

970
00:45:40,180 --> 00:45:44,400
Is that just a quirk of personality or is that a fundamental

971
00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:47,960
aspect of a human who's running six plus companies?

972
00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:50,900
Well, it's a relief valve just like video

973
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:53,080
games and polytopia and Elden Ring,

974
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:54,660
a release valve for him.

975
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,080
He does have an explosive sense

976
00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:00,360
of humor as you know.

977
00:46:01,060 --> 00:46:04,680
The weird thing is when he makes the abrupt transition

978
00:46:05,220 --> 00:46:12,060
from dark demon mode and you're in the conference room and he has really become upset about something.

979
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,180
Not only there are dark vibes,

980
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,500
but there's dark words emanating and he's saying,

981
00:46:17,820 --> 00:46:20,560
your resignation will be accepted if you die, etc.

982
00:46:21,740 --> 00:46:23,500
Then something pops

983
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:25,800
and he pulls out his phone

984
00:46:26,340 --> 00:46:33,420
and pulls up a Bonnie Pythons skit like the School of Silly Walks or whichever John Cleese it was.

985
00:46:33,980 --> 00:46:36,440
He starts laughing again and things break.

986
00:46:39,020 --> 00:46:42,040
It's almost as if he has different modes,

987
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,460
the emulation of human mode, the engineering mode,

988
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,100
the dark and demon mode,

989
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,900
and certainly there is the silly and giddy mode.

990
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:59,000
Yeah, you've actually opened the Elon book with quotes from Elon and from Steve Jobs.

991
00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:00,880
So Elon's quote is,

992
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:01,980
to anyone I've offended,

993
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:02,940
I just want to say,

994
00:47:02,980 --> 00:47:03,920
this is on SNL,

995
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:05,340
I just want to say,

996
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,420
I reinvented electric cars and I'm sending people to Mars on a rocket ship.

997
00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:12,680
Did you also think I was going to be a chill normal dude?

998
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:14,520
And then the quote from Steve Jobs,

999
00:47:14,540 --> 00:47:20,620
of course, is the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do.

1000
00:47:21,290 --> 00:47:25,840
So what do you think is the role of the old

1001
00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:27,840
madness and genius?

1002
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:29,120
What do you think is the

1003
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,280
role of crazy in this?

1004
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:30,760
Well,

1005
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,620
first of all, let's both stipulate that Musk is crazy at times.

1006
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:37,180
I mean, and

1007
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,380
then let's figure out,

1008
00:47:40,980 --> 00:47:44,540
and I try to do it through storytelling, not through hyphilic

1009
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:45,680
and preaching,

1010
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,860
where that craziness works.

1011
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:51,280
Give me a story,

1012
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:52,120
tell me an anecdote,

1013
00:47:52,260 --> 00:47:53,100
tell me where he's crazy.

1014
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,160
And the almost final example,

1015
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,640
AI, but him shooting off Starship for the first time,

1016
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,260
in between an aborted countdown and the shoot off,

1017
00:48:06,260 --> 00:48:08,680
he goes to Miami to an ad sales conference and

1018
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,460
meets Linda Iaccarino for the first time,

1019
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:11,400
makes her the CEO.

1020
00:48:11,740 --> 00:48:13,340
I mean, there's a very impulsiveness to

1021
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:13,640
him.

1022
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:14,460
Then he flies back,

1023
00:48:14,940 --> 00:48:22,380
they launch Starship, and you realize that there's a drive and there are

1024
00:48:22,380 --> 00:48:24,000
demons and there's also craziness.

1025
00:48:26,860 --> 00:48:29,940
And you sometimes want to pull those out.

1026
00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:31,700
You want to take away his

1027
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:33,800
phone so he doesn't tweet at 3 AM.

1028
00:48:34,220 --> 00:48:35,540
You want to say,

1029
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:36,720
quit being so crazy.

1030
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:38,960
But then you realize

1031
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,300
there's a wonderful line of Shakespeare in Measure for Measure at the very end.

1032
00:48:43,820 --> 00:48:44,320
He says,

1033
00:48:44,620 --> 00:48:47,740
even the best are molded out of faults.

1034
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,580
And so you take the faults of Musk,

1035
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,380
for example, which includes a craziness that can be endearing,

1036
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,340
but also craziness that's just like effing crazy,

1037
00:49:00,210 --> 00:49:04,480
as well as this drive and demon mode.

1038
00:49:05,860 --> 00:49:09,280
I don't know that you can take that strand out of the fabric

1039
00:49:09,820 --> 00:49:11,160
and the fabric remains whole.

1040
00:49:13,060 --> 00:49:13,600
I wonder,

1041
00:49:14,740 --> 00:49:20,000
sometimes it saddens me that we live in a society that doesn't celebrate even the

1042
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:21,300
darker aspects of crazy

1043
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,840
in acknowledging that it all comes in one package.

1044
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,520
It's the man in the arena versus the critic.

1045
00:49:28,060 --> 00:49:31,960
And the man in the arena versus the regulator to make it more prosaic.

1046
00:49:35,090 --> 00:49:38,180
Well, let me ask about not just the crazy, but the cruelty.

1047
00:49:38,780 --> 00:49:42,660
So you've written one reporting on Steve Jobs.

1048
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,380
Was told you that the big question to ask was,

1049
00:49:46,060 --> 00:49:47,920
did he have to be so mean,

1050
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,900
so rough and cruel,

1051
00:49:50,420 --> 00:49:51,500
so drama addicted?

1052
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,960
What is this answer for Steve Jobs?

1053
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,300
Did he have to be so cruel?

1054
00:49:56,660 --> 00:49:57,220
For Jobs,

1055
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:00,080
I asked Was at the end of my reporting,

1056
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,060
because that's what he said at the beginning,

1057
00:50:02,820 --> 00:50:04,800
we're doing the launch of, I think

1058
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:08,040
the iPad 2, it may have been.

1059
00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:10,520
Steve is emaciated because

1060
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:12,300
he's been sick.

1061
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:13,980
And so I say to Was,

1062
00:50:14,020 --> 00:50:15,100
what's the answer to your question?

1063
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,400
And he said, well, if I had been running Apple,

1064
00:50:18,180 --> 00:50:19,500
I would have been nicer to everybody.

1065
00:50:19,660 --> 00:50:20,760
Everybody got stuck up.

1066
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:21,940
We've been like a family.

1067
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,220
And then I don't know if you know Was,

1068
00:50:24,220 --> 00:50:25,100
he's like a teddy bear.

1069
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:26,560
He paused, he smiled and he said,

1070
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:28,080
but if I had been running Apple,

1071
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,300
I don't think we would have done the Macintosh or the iPhone.

1072
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,780
So yeah,

1073
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:35,120
you have to

1074
00:50:36,540 --> 00:50:37,640
sometimes

1075
00:50:38,620 --> 00:50:39,260
be rough.

1076
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,300
And Jobs said the same thing that Must said to me,

1077
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:44,380
which is he said,

1078
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,080
people like you love wearing velvet gloves.

1079
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,240
Now I don't know that I've worn velvet gloves often,

1080
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:52,400
but you like people to like you,

1081
00:50:52,420 --> 00:50:53,920
you like to sweet talk things,

1082
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:54,300
you sugar coat things.

1083
00:50:54,480 --> 00:51:00,320
He says, I'm just a working class kid and I don't have that luxury.

1084
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:02,780
If something sucks, I got to tell people it sucks.

1085
00:51:03,180 --> 00:51:04,640
Or I've got a team of B players.

1086
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:06,280
Well, Musk is that way

1087
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:06,580
as well.

1088
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,400
And it gets back to what I said earlier,

1089
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:10,500
which is, yeah,

1090
00:51:11,020 --> 00:51:13,040
I probably would wear velvet

1091
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,400
gloves if I could find them at my haberdasher.

1092
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,000
And I do try to sugar coat things.

1093
00:51:19,060 --> 00:51:21,400
But when I was running CNN,

1094
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:23,820
it needed to be reshaped.

1095
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:25,200
It needed to be broken.

1096
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,680
It needed to have certain things blown up.

1097
00:51:28,180 --> 00:51:29,840
And I didn't do it.

1098
00:51:31,060 --> 00:51:33,500
So bad on me, but it made me realize,

1099
00:51:33,700 --> 00:51:35,940
okay, I'll just write about the people who can do it.

1100
00:51:36,180 --> 00:51:37,880
Well, that thing of saying,

1101
00:51:38,340 --> 00:51:39,500
I think probably both of them,

1102
00:51:39,620 --> 00:51:41,440
but Elon certainly saying things

1103
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,380
like that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

1104
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,400
By the way, I've heard Jeff Bezos say that.

1105
00:51:47,580 --> 00:51:48,900
I've heard Bill Gates say that.

1106
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:50,800
I've heard Steve Jobs say it.

1107
00:51:50,940 --> 00:51:53,420
I've heard Steve Jobs say it about a smoothie.

1108
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,000
They were making it a whole fruit or something.

1109
00:51:55,660 --> 00:51:59,040
They use the word stupid really often.

1110
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:00,660
And you know who else used it?

1111
00:52:00,860 --> 00:52:01,500
Errol Musk.

1112
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:02,560
He kept baking.

1113
00:52:02,780 --> 00:52:04,580
Elon stand in front of him and saying,

1114
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:05,620
that's the stupidest thing.

1115
00:52:05,740 --> 00:52:06,980
You're the stupidest person.

1116
00:52:07,180 --> 00:52:08,440
You'll never amount to anything.

1117
00:52:11,460 --> 00:52:12,640
I don't know.

1118
00:52:13,900 --> 00:52:17,060
As John McNeil, the president of Tesla said,

1119
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:19,000
do you have to be that way?

1120
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:20,600
Probably not.

1121
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,340
There are a lot of successful

1122
00:52:22,380 --> 00:52:24,140
people who are much kinder,

1123
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:26,040
but

1124
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:32,180
it's sometimes necessary

1125
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,400
to be much more brutally honest,

1126
00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:37,820
I would say,

1127
00:52:38,540 --> 00:52:44,060
than people like who are when boss of the year trophies.

1128
00:52:45,140 --> 00:52:46,880
Well, as you said, this kind of idea

1129
00:52:47,420 --> 00:52:48,840
did also send a signal.

1130
00:52:49,300 --> 00:52:51,040
This idea of Steve Jobs of eight players,

1131
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:52,720
it did send a signal to everybody.

1132
00:52:54,220 --> 00:52:56,820
It was a kind of encouragement to the people that are all in.

1133
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:57,740
Right.

1134
00:52:57,740 --> 00:52:58,700
And that happened to Twitter.

1135
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,460
When we went to Twitter headquarters the day before

1136
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,880
the takeover, he was having

1137
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:09,420
Andrew and James, his two young cousins and other people from

1138
00:53:09,420 --> 00:53:12,200
the autopilot team, going over lines of code.

1139
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,500
And Musk himself sat there with a laptop on

1140
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:15,520
the second floor of the building,

1141
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,100
looking at the lines of code that had been written by Twitter engineers.

1142
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:25,240
And they decided they were going to fire 85% of them because they

1143
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:26,100
had to be all in.

1144
00:53:26,260 --> 00:53:29,880
And this notion of psychological safety and mental days off and

1145
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:32,400
working with remotely, he said,

1146
00:53:32,980 --> 00:53:33,060
either.

1147
00:53:33,620 --> 00:53:33,940
And then

1148
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,500
it came up, actually one of his,

1149
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:39,400
I think it was one

1150
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:45,180
of the cousins or maybe Ross Nordine came up with the idea of let's not be so rough and

1151
00:53:45,180 --> 00:53:46,360
just fire all these people.

1152
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,240
Let's ask them, do you really want to be all in?

1153
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:50,440
Because this is going to be hardcore.

1154
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:51,640
It's going to be intense.

1155
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:53,140
You get to choose,

1156
00:53:53,340 --> 00:53:55,900
but by midnight tonight we want you to check the box.

1157
00:53:56,580 --> 00:53:59,000
I'm hardcore, all in, I'll be there in person,

1158
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,880
I'll work, you know, or that's not for me.

1159
00:54:02,180 --> 00:54:03,420
I've got a family,

1160
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:04,300
I got work balance

1161
00:54:05,620 --> 00:54:08,460
and you got different type of people that way and different

1162
00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:09,620
stages of their life.

1163
00:54:09,780 --> 00:54:13,900
I was a little bit more hardcore and all in when I was in my twenties and when I

1164
00:54:13,900 --> 00:54:15,860
was, you know, in my fifties.

1165
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:16,520
Yeah.

1166
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:17,420
And you write about this

1167
00:54:18,020 --> 00:54:19,460
really nice idea actually,

1168
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:20,860
that there's two camps

1169
00:54:21,420 --> 00:54:23,100
and you find out,

1170
00:54:23,180 --> 00:54:25,100
I don't, I wonder how true this is.

1171
00:54:25,100 --> 00:54:26,340
It rings true.

1172
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:27,880
You can just ask people,

1173
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:28,980
which camp are you in?

1174
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,980
Are you the kind of person that prize themselves,

1175
00:54:32,100 --> 00:54:34,860
that enjoy staying up till 2 a.m.

1176
00:54:35,180 --> 00:54:36,240
programming or whatever?

1177
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,160
Or do you see the value of quote unquote,

1178
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:40,740
you know, about life,

1179
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:42,680
work life balance, all this kind of stuff.

1180
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:43,420
And

1181
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:44,340
it's interesting.

1182
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:44,900
I mean,

1183
00:54:46,260 --> 00:54:47,000
like you could,

1184
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,780
people probably divide themselves in different stages of life and

1185
00:54:50,780 --> 00:54:55,700
you can just ask them and it makes sense for certain companies in certain stages of their

1186
00:54:55,740 --> 00:54:56,820
development to be like,

1187
00:54:56,820 --> 00:54:57,980
we only want hardcore people.

1188
00:54:57,980 --> 00:54:58,300
Or certain teams.

1189
00:54:58,500 --> 00:54:59,700
It doesn't even have to be a whole company.

1190
00:55:00,380 --> 00:55:00,980
And you're right.

1191
00:55:01,580 --> 00:55:03,660
It goes back to what I was saying about rule.

1192
00:55:04,020 --> 00:55:06,260
The first secret is sort of know

1193
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:11,680
thyself obviously comes from Plato and everything comes from Plato and Socrates,

1194
00:55:13,020 --> 00:55:15,220
but, and

1195
00:55:16,020 --> 00:55:18,000
decide on this stage of my life.

1196
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,260
Am I, do I want to be a hackathon all in all night

1197
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:23,860
and change the world?

1198
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:24,600
Or do I want

1199
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,040
to bring wisdom and stability,

1200
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:28,380
but also have balance?

1201
00:55:29,060 --> 00:55:30,500
I think it's good to have

1202
00:55:30,690 --> 00:55:33,260
different companies with different styles.

1203
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,280
The problem was Twitter was at almost one extreme

1204
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:45,360
with yoga studios and mental health days off and enshrining psychological safety as one of the

1205
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,940
mantras that people should never feel psychologically threatened.

1206
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,560
And he, I remember the bitter laugh he

1207
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:53,240
unleashed when he kept hearing that word.

1208
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:55,800
He said, no, I like the words hardcore.

1209
00:55:56,260 --> 00:55:57,200
I like intensity.

1210
00:55:57,660 --> 00:56:03,060
I like a intense sense of urgency as our operating principle.

1211
00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:05,140
Well, yeah, there are people that

1212
00:56:05,140 --> 00:56:05,760
way as well.

1213
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,820
And so know who you are and know what type of team you want to build.

1214
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,840
Versus psychological safety and too many birds everywhere.

1215
00:56:13,340 --> 00:56:13,760
Oh yeah.

1216
00:56:14,020 --> 00:56:17,160
A lot of times Musk did things and I go, what the hell?

1217
00:56:18,140 --> 00:56:19,340
And among them was changing

1218
00:56:19,340 --> 00:56:21,140
the name Twitter and getting rid of the birds.

1219
00:56:21,260 --> 00:56:21,840
I said, Hey man,

1220
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:23,760
it's a lot invested in that brand.

1221
00:56:24,580 --> 00:56:25,700
But when I watched him,

1222
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,740
he thought, okay, these sweet little chirpy birds tweeting away in the name Twitter,

1223
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,200
it's not hardcore.

1224
00:56:34,380 --> 00:56:35,420
It's not intense.

1225
00:56:35,980 --> 00:56:38,040
And so for better and for worse,

1226
00:56:38,660 --> 00:56:40,120
I think he's taking acts

1227
00:56:41,140 --> 00:56:47,080
into the hardcore realm with people who post hardcore things,

1228
00:56:47,580 --> 00:56:49,460
with people with hardcore views.

1229
00:56:50,380 --> 00:56:50,940
It's not

1230
00:56:52,060 --> 00:56:54,140
a polite

1231
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:59,720
playpen for the blue checked

1232
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,180
anointed elite.

1233
00:57:04,140 --> 00:57:05,600
And I thought, okay, this is going to be bad.

1234
00:57:05,620 --> 00:57:06,700
The whole thing is going to fall apart.

1235
00:57:06,780 --> 00:57:08,300
Well, it has had problems,

1236
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:14,340
but the hardcore intensity of it has also meant that there's new things happening there.

1237
00:57:14,460 --> 00:57:21,920
So it's very Elon Musk to not like this sweetness of birds chirping and tweeting and saying,

1238
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:23,660
I want something more hardcore.

1239
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:30,140
As you've written in referring to the previous Twitter CEO,

1240
00:57:30,620 --> 00:57:34,660
Elon said Twitter needs a fire breathing dragon.

1241
00:57:35,620 --> 00:57:38,520
I think this is a good opportunity to maybe

1242
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:43,400
go through some of the memorable moments of the Twitter saga as you've written about extensively

1243
00:57:43,740 --> 00:57:44,340
in your book,

1244
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:50,680
from the early days of considering the acquisition to how it went through to the

1245
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,100
details of, like you mentioned, the engineering teams.

1246
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,830
Well, at the beginning of 2022,

1247
00:57:57,300 --> 00:57:58,620
he was riding high,

1248
00:57:59,180 --> 00:57:59,800
but as we say,

1249
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:00,720
he's a drama addict.

1250
00:58:00,900 --> 00:58:02,080
He doesn't like to ghost.

1251
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,540
And Tesla sold a million vehicles.

1252
00:58:05,740 --> 00:58:07,700
I think 33 boosters,

1253
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,220
Falcon 9s have been shot up and

1254
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:13,980
landed safely in the past few months.

1255
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:20,940
And he was the richest person on earth and times person of the year.

1256
00:58:21,700 --> 00:58:22,280
And yet,

1257
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,240
he'd said, I'm still want to put all my chips back on the table.

1258
00:58:27,300 --> 00:58:28,560
I want to keep taking risks.

1259
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:30,520
I don't want to savor things.

1260
00:58:31,060 --> 00:58:32,360
He had sold all of his houses.

1261
00:58:33,180 --> 00:58:36,320
So he starts secretly buying shares of Twitter.

1262
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,780
January, February, March becomes public at a certain point.

1263
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:42,520
I don't know if I should declare it.

1264
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:45,800
And we were here in Austin

1265
00:58:46,620 --> 00:58:48,600
at Gigafactory on the mezzanine.

1266
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:50,960
And he was trying to figure out,

1267
00:58:51,140 --> 00:58:52,200
well, where do I go from here?

1268
00:58:53,140 --> 00:58:55,300
And at that time, this early April,

1269
00:58:55,940 --> 00:58:59,880
they were going to offer him a board seat and he was going to do a standstill agreement

1270
00:58:59,980 --> 00:59:01,680
and stop at 10% or something.

1271
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:04,440
Now remember, we were standing around.

1272
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:05,500
It was Luke Nozick,

1273
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:06,580
whom you know well,

1274
00:59:07,020 --> 00:59:07,920
Ken Halry,

1275
00:59:08,300 --> 00:59:10,600
some of his friends on that mezzanine here.

1276
00:59:11,340 --> 00:59:12,620
And all afternoon and then

1277
00:59:12,620 --> 00:59:14,260
late into the evening at dinner

1278
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,000
is like, should we do this?

1279
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:18,600
And I didn't say anything.

1280
00:59:18,660 --> 00:59:19,740
I'm just the observer.

1281
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:21,180
But everybody else is saying,

1282
00:59:21,460 --> 00:59:23,860
excuse me, why do you want to own Twitter?

1283
00:59:24,940 --> 00:59:25,900
And Griffin, his son,

1284
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:27,340
joined at dinner.

1285
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,480
And May, for some reason, was in town.

1286
00:59:30,380 --> 00:59:32,960
And like everybody says, no, we don't use Twitter.

1287
00:59:32,980 --> 00:59:34,000
Why would you do that?

1288
00:59:34,660 --> 00:59:36,060
And May said, well, I use Twitter.

1289
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:37,680
And it's almost like, okay,

1290
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,320
the demographics are people my age or May's age.

1291
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:43,580
And so it looked

1292
00:59:43,580 --> 00:59:45,460
like he wasn't going to pursue it.

1293
00:59:45,700 --> 00:59:47,160
They offered him a board seat.

1294
00:59:48,860 --> 00:59:51,780
And then he went off to

1295
00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:56,240
Hawaii to Larry Ellison's house,

1296
00:59:56,660 --> 00:59:57,780
which he sometimes uses.

1297
00:59:58,280 --> 00:59:59,260
He was meeting a friend,

1298
00:59:59,420 --> 01:00:01,060
Angela Bassett, an actress.

1299
01:00:01,940 --> 01:00:05,180
And instead of enjoying three days of vacation,

1300
01:00:06,060 --> 01:00:07,640
he just became supercharged

1301
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,780
and started firing off text messages,

1302
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,620
including the fire breathing dragon one.

1303
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:13,960
I think

1304
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:19,140
he used that phrase a few times that Parag wasn't the person who was going to take Twitter

1305
01:00:19,660 --> 01:00:20,440
to a new level.

1306
01:00:21,180 --> 01:00:23,320
And then by the time he gets to Vancouver,

1307
01:00:23,540 --> 01:00:24,740
where Grimes meets him,

1308
01:00:25,260 --> 01:00:27,420
they stay up all night playing Elden Ring.

1309
01:00:27,820 --> 01:00:29,020
He was doing a TED Talk.

1310
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,060
And then at 5.30,

1311
01:00:32,060 --> 01:00:33,820
he finishes playing Elden Ring and

1312
01:00:33,820 --> 01:00:35,820
sends out that I've made an offer.

1313
01:00:37,060 --> 01:00:38,440
Even when he comes back,

1314
01:00:39,020 --> 01:00:40,320
people are trying to intervene

1315
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,460
and say, excuse me, why are you doing it?

1316
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,040
And so it was a rocky period between late

1317
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,600
April and October when the deal closed.

1318
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:51,200
And people ask me all the time,

1319
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:53,000
well, did he want to get out of the deal?

1320
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:53,520
I said,

1321
01:00:53,900 --> 01:00:56,200
which Elon are you talking about at what time of day?

1322
01:00:56,620 --> 01:00:58,140
Because there'll be times in the morning

1323
01:00:58,720 --> 01:00:59,640
when he'd say, oh,

1324
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:01,420
the Delaware court's going to

1325
01:01:01,420 --> 01:01:02,180
force me to do it.

1326
01:01:02,220 --> 01:01:02,900
It's horrible.

1327
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:04,260
Talk to his lawyers.

1328
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:05,320
You can win this case.

1329
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:06,380
Get me out of it.

1330
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,820
He met here in Austin with three or four investment bankers,

1331
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:15,780
Blair Efron at Centerview, Bob Steele at Pirella Weinberg.

1332
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:17,300
And they offered him options.

1333
01:01:17,380 --> 01:01:18,080
Do you want to get out?

1334
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:18,940
Do you want to stay in?

1335
01:01:18,940 --> 01:01:20,040
Do you want to reduce the price?

1336
01:01:21,300 --> 01:01:22,380
And I think he was

1337
01:01:22,750 --> 01:01:23,200
mercurial.

1338
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:26,380
There were times he would text me or say to me,

1339
01:01:26,860 --> 01:01:27,900
this is going to be great.

1340
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:29,460
It's going to be the accelerant

1341
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,580
to do x.com the way we thought about 20 years ago.

1342
01:01:35,620 --> 01:01:37,180
And so it's not until they

1343
01:01:37,180 --> 01:01:39,040
finally tell him at the beginning of October,

1344
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,040
right when Optimus the Robot is being unveiled

1345
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,520
in California actually,

1346
01:01:45,820 --> 01:01:46,360
that the lawyer say,

1347
01:01:46,420 --> 01:01:49,120
you're not going to probably win this case, but

1348
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:51,080
better go through with the deal.

1349
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,060
And by then he's not only made his peace with it,

1350
01:01:55,060 --> 01:01:57,000
he's kind of happy with it at time.

1351
01:01:57,780 --> 01:01:58,560
Eventually,

1352
01:01:58,940 --> 01:02:01,220
the deal is going to close on

1353
01:02:01,980 --> 01:02:04,400
I think a Friday

1354
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:04,940
morning.

1355
01:02:04,940 --> 01:02:05,960
I have it in the book.

1356
01:02:06,580 --> 01:02:10,100
And we're there on Thursday and he's wandering around looking at

1357
01:02:10,100 --> 01:02:11,740
the stay woke t-shirts and

1358
01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:15,900
psychological safety lingo they're all using.

1359
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:18,060
And he and his lawyers

1360
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:21,900
and bankers hatched a plan to do a flash close.

1361
01:02:23,180 --> 01:02:25,020
And the reason for that was

1362
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:27,420
if they close the deal

1363
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,740
after the markets had closed for the day,

1364
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:35,300
and he could send a letter to Parag and two others,

1365
01:02:35,940 --> 01:02:37,680
firing them quote for cause,

1366
01:02:38,300 --> 01:02:40,240
and this will be something the courts will have to figure out,

1367
01:02:41,660 --> 01:02:43,760
then he could save 200 million or so.

1368
01:02:44,100 --> 01:02:45,340
And it was both the money,

1369
01:02:45,500 --> 01:02:46,420
but for him a matter,

1370
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:48,280
I won't say of principle, but of,

1371
01:02:49,100 --> 01:02:49,260
hey,

1372
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:51,260
they misled me about the numbers.

1373
01:02:51,300 --> 01:02:52,820
I got forced into doing it.

1374
01:02:53,300 --> 01:03:00,380
So I'm going to try this jujitsu maneuver and be able to get some money out of them.

1375
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:01,860
Then when he takes over,

1376
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:03,620
it's kind of a wild scene.

1377
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,440
Him trying to decide in three different

1378
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,960
rounds how to get the staff down to 15% of what it was.

1379
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:13,260
Him deciding on Christmas Eve,

1380
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:15,020
after he'd been at a meeting

1381
01:03:15,980 --> 01:03:20,080
where they told him we can't get rid of that Sacramento server farm, because

1382
01:03:20,780 --> 01:03:22,260
it's need of a redundancy.

1383
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:23,680
He says, no, it's not.

1384
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:25,900
And he's flying here to Austin.

1385
01:03:27,260 --> 01:03:28,100
And young James says,

1386
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:29,220
why don't we just do it ourselves?

1387
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:30,420
He turns the plane around,

1388
01:03:30,460 --> 01:03:33,120
they land in Sacramento and he pulls them out himself.

1389
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:34,800
So it was a manic period.

1390
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,620
We should also say that underneath of that,

1391
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:38,500
there was

1392
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:43,180
a running desire to or consideration to perhaps

1393
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:44,580
start a new

1394
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:48,340
company to build a social media company from scratch.

1395
01:03:48,820 --> 01:03:50,080
Well, Kimball wanted to do that.

1396
01:03:50,140 --> 01:03:52,960
And Kimball here at a wonderful restaurant in Austin,

1397
01:03:53,140 --> 01:03:54,040
at lunch is like, hey,

1398
01:03:54,860 --> 01:03:55,780
why are you buying Twitter?

1399
01:03:56,220 --> 01:03:58,880
Let's start one from scratch and do it on the blockchain.

1400
01:03:59,820 --> 01:04:01,380
Now it took him a while,

1401
01:04:01,380 --> 01:04:03,160
and you can argue it one way or the other,

1402
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:08,040
to come to the conclusion that the blockchain was not fast enough

1403
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:12,140
and responsive time enough to be able to handle a billion tweets

1404
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:13,500
in a day or so.

1405
01:04:14,580 --> 01:04:18,360
He gets mad when they keep trying to get him to talk to Sam Bankman Fried,

1406
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:19,620
who's trying to say,

1407
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:21,760
I'll invest, but we have to do it on the blockchain.

1408
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:28,720
Kimball is still in favor of starting a new one and doing it on blockchain based.

1409
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:31,300
In retrospect,

1410
01:04:32,660 --> 01:04:33,100
I think

1411
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,640
starting a new media company would have been better.

1412
01:04:35,660 --> 01:04:36,900
He wouldn't have had the baggage

1413
01:04:37,620 --> 01:04:38,140
or

1414
01:04:38,660 --> 01:04:44,240
the legacy that he's breaking now in breaking the way Twitter had been.

1415
01:04:44,660 --> 01:04:47,140
But it's hard to have

1416
01:04:47,140 --> 01:04:49,660
millions and millions, hundreds of millions of

1417
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,460
true users, not just trolls,

1418
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:55,520
and start from scratch as

1419
01:04:55,640 --> 01:05:01,860
others have found, as Macedon and Blue Sky and threads and not any threads even had a base.

1420
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:03,220
So it would have been hard.

1421
01:05:04,140 --> 01:05:07,330
Yeah. And to do that in the way he did requires

1422
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,020
another part that you write about with the three musketeers

1423
01:05:11,020 --> 01:05:12,020
and the whole engineering,

1424
01:05:12,940 --> 01:05:15,600
the firing and the bringing in the engineers

1425
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:17,360
to try to sort of go hardcore.

1426
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,040
So there's a lot of interesting sort of questions to ask there,

1427
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:21,700
but the high level,

1428
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:26,980
can you just comment about that part of the saga, which is

1429
01:05:28,140 --> 01:05:29,240
bringing in the engineers

1430
01:05:29,460 --> 01:05:31,120
and seeing like, what can we do here?

1431
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:32,220
Right.

1432
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:34,920
He brought in the engineers and figured

1433
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:38,380
that the amount of people doing Tesla,

1434
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,260
full self-driving autopilot and all the software

1435
01:05:41,260 --> 01:05:46,240
there was about one 10th of what was doing software for Twitter.

1436
01:05:46,380 --> 01:05:47,940
And he said, this can't be the case.

1437
01:05:48,660 --> 01:05:49,080
And

1438
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,280
he fired 85% in three different rounds.

1439
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:53,140
The first was

1440
01:05:54,180 --> 01:05:56,100
just firing people because

1441
01:05:56,100 --> 01:06:02,060
they looked at the coding and they had a team of people from Tesla's autopilot team grading

1442
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:06,140
the codes of all that was written in the past year or so.

1443
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,580
Then he fired people who didn't

1444
01:06:09,580 --> 01:06:11,760
seem to be totally all in or loyal.

1445
01:06:12,260 --> 01:06:14,220
And then another round of layoffs.

1446
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:19,280
So at each step of the way,

1447
01:06:19,780 --> 01:06:21,320
almost everybody said, that's enough.

1448
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:23,240
It's going to destroy things.

1449
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:27,080
From Alex Spiro, his lawyer to Jared Burchill,

1450
01:06:27,580 --> 01:06:28,480
he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

1451
01:06:29,300 --> 01:06:30,940
And even Andrew and James,

1452
01:06:30,940 --> 01:06:35,440
the young cousins who are tasked with making a list and figuring out who's good or bad,

1453
01:06:35,580 --> 01:06:36,480
say, we've done enough.

1454
01:06:36,500 --> 01:06:38,440
We're going to be in real trouble.

1455
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,340
And they were partly right.

1456
01:06:41,620 --> 01:06:45,460
I mean, there was degradation of the service some,

1457
01:06:46,460 --> 01:06:46,580
but

1458
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:50,300
not as much as half the services I use half the time.

1459
01:06:51,060 --> 01:06:51,260
And

1460
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:53,940
I wake up each morning and

1461
01:06:54,900 --> 01:06:57,060
hit the app and okay, still there.

1462
01:06:57,420 --> 01:06:57,780
What do you think?

1463
01:06:57,780 --> 01:06:58,540
Was that too much?

1464
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:04,920
I think that he has an algorithm that we mentioned earlier that begins with question every requirement,

1465
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:07,160
but it's up to his delete, delete,

1466
01:07:07,460 --> 01:07:07,600
delete,

1467
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:08,980
delete every part.

1468
01:07:09,660 --> 01:07:13,080
And then a corollary to that is if you

1469
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:16,420
don't end up adding back 20% of what you deleted,

1470
01:07:17,020 --> 01:07:19,060
then you didn't delete enough in the first round

1471
01:07:19,340 --> 01:07:20,140
because you were too timid.

1472
01:07:21,180 --> 01:07:22,460
Well, so you asked me,

1473
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:23,740
did he overdo it?

1474
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:26,060
He probably over did it by 20%,

1475
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:28,480
which is his formula.

1476
01:07:28,980 --> 01:07:32,780
And they're probably trying to hire people now to keep things going.

1477
01:07:34,300 --> 01:07:39,260
But it sends a strong signal to people that are hired back or the people that are still there.

1478
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:40,400
The April idea.

1479
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:48,140
Yeah. And what Steve Jobs and many other great leaders felt and certainly Bezos and certainly in the early days of Microsoft, Bill Gates,

1480
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:51,280
it was hardcore, only A players.

1481
01:07:52,180 --> 01:07:54,660
So how much of Elon's success would you say?

1482
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:59,340
Elon's and Steve Jobs' success is the hiring and managing of great teams.

1483
01:07:59,940 --> 01:08:01,600
When I asked Steve Jobs at one point,

1484
01:08:01,700 --> 01:08:03,800
what was the best product you ever created?

1485
01:08:04,620 --> 01:08:05,480
I thought he'd say

1486
01:08:06,460 --> 01:08:09,800
maybe the Macintosh or maybe the iPhone.

1487
01:08:10,620 --> 01:08:12,200
He said, no, those products are hard.

1488
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,320
The best thing I ever created was the team

1489
01:08:16,020 --> 01:08:17,500
that made those products.

1490
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:19,920
And that's the hard part is creating a team.

1491
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:22,420
And he did, from Johnny Ive to Tim Cook

1492
01:08:23,740 --> 01:08:24,580
and Eddie Q and

1493
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:25,680
Phil Schiller.

1494
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:31,080
Elon has done a good job bringing in people.

1495
01:08:31,300 --> 01:08:32,020
Gwen Shotwell,

1496
01:08:32,660 --> 01:08:33,220
obviously,

1497
01:08:33,900 --> 01:08:36,040
Linda Iaccarino, she can

1498
01:08:36,440 --> 01:08:39,200
navigate through the current crises.

1499
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,780
Certainly stellar people at SpaceX like Mark Jankos.

1500
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:52,440
And then at Tesla like Drew Bacalhino and Lars Marravey and Tom Zhu and many others.

1501
01:08:54,440 --> 01:08:57,700
He's not as much of a team

1502
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,100
collaborator as say Benjamin Franklin,

1503
01:09:00,660 --> 01:09:01,280
who by the way,

1504
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:02,900
that's the best team ever created,

1505
01:09:03,440 --> 01:09:04,140
which is the founders.

1506
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,720
And you had to have really smart people like Jefferson and Madison and really

1507
01:09:09,070 --> 01:09:15,520
passionate people like John Adams and his cousin Samuel and really a guy of high rectitude like Washington.

1508
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:21,040
But you also needed a Ben Franklin who could bring everybody together and forge a team

1509
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,780
out of them and make them compromise with each other.

1510
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,740
Musk is a magnet for awesome talent.

1511
01:09:28,580 --> 01:09:29,020
Magnet,

1512
01:09:29,440 --> 01:09:29,860
interesting.

1513
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:35,940
But there's like the priorities of hiring based on excellence,

1514
01:09:36,300 --> 01:09:37,480
trustworthiness and drive.

1515
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:39,560
These are things you've described throughout the book.

1516
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:41,700
I mean, there's a pretty

1517
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:46,040
concrete and rigorous

1518
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:50,040
set of ideas based on which the hiring is done.

1519
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:50,920
Oh yeah.

1520
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:52,500
And he has a very good,

1521
01:09:53,460 --> 01:09:55,880
spidey, intuitive sense

1522
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:57,980
just looking at people

1523
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:01,580
who could, I mean, not looking at them, but studying them

1524
01:10:02,100 --> 01:10:02,740
who could be good.

1525
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:05,120
One of his

1526
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,860
ways of operating

1527
01:10:09,700 --> 01:10:11,680
is what he calls a skip level meeting.

1528
01:10:12,340 --> 01:10:15,300
And let's take a very specific thing like the Raptor engine,

1529
01:10:15,380 --> 01:10:17,800
which is powering the Starship.

1530
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:19,500
And it wasn't going well.

1531
01:10:19,540 --> 01:10:21,080
It looked like a spaghetti bush and

1532
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:22,500
it was going to be hard to manufacture.

1533
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:24,360
And he got rid of the people

1534
01:10:24,980 --> 01:10:26,300
who were in charge of that team.

1535
01:10:27,340 --> 01:10:33,080
And I remember that he spent a couple of months doing what he calls skip level,

1536
01:10:33,300 --> 01:10:38,460
which means instead of meeting with his direct reports on the Raptor team,

1537
01:10:38,860 --> 01:10:42,180
he would meet with the people one level below them.

1538
01:10:43,180 --> 01:10:45,920
And so he would skip a level and meet with them.

1539
01:10:46,620 --> 01:10:49,740
And he said, this is, and I just ask them what they're doing.

1540
01:10:49,820 --> 01:10:51,280
And I drilled them with questions.

1541
01:10:51,940 --> 01:10:54,900
And he said, and this is how I figure out who's going to emerge.

1542
01:10:55,500 --> 01:10:56,900
He said it was particularly difficult.

1543
01:10:57,060 --> 01:10:59,520
I was sitting in those meetings because people were wearing masks.

1544
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:01,220
It was during the height of COVID.

1545
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:05,620
And he said it made it a little bit harder for him because he has to

1546
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:06,980
get the input.

1547
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:11,300
But I watched as a young kid, Dreadlocks

1548
01:11:12,100 --> 01:11:14,680
named Jacob McKenzie, he's in the book,

1549
01:11:15,380 --> 01:11:17,660
is sitting there and he's a bit like you.

1550
01:11:18,380 --> 01:11:21,240
Engineering mindset speaks in a bit of a monotone.

1551
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:26,060
Musk would ask a question and he would give an answer and the answer would be very

1552
01:11:26,060 --> 01:11:28,300
straightforward and he didn't get rattled.

1553
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:29,500
He was like this.

1554
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:31,460
And Musk said one day

1555
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:33,400
called him up at 3 a.m.

1556
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:35,200
Well, I won't say 3 a.m., but after midnight

1557
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:36,860
said, you still around?

1558
01:11:37,260 --> 01:11:38,640
And Jake said, yeah, I'm still at work.

1559
01:11:39,060 --> 01:11:42,680
And he said, OK, I'm going to make you in charge of the team building Raptor.

1560
01:11:43,700 --> 01:11:45,300
And that was like

1561
01:11:45,900 --> 01:11:46,940
a big surprise.

1562
01:11:47,500 --> 01:11:50,520
But Jacob McKenzie has now gotten a version of Raptor

1563
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,470
and when they're building him at least one a week and they're pretty awesome.

1564
01:11:54,260 --> 01:11:57,680
And that's where his talent,

1565
01:11:58,380 --> 01:12:03,940
Musk's talent for finding the right person and promoting them.

1566
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:05,560
That's where it is.

1567
01:12:05,740 --> 01:12:07,240
And promoting it in a way where

1568
01:12:08,060 --> 01:12:09,700
it's like here's the ball,

1569
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:10,720
here catch.

1570
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:11,420
Yeah, yeah.

1571
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:13,100
And you run with it.

1572
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:18,340
I've interacted with quite a few folks from even just the Model X,

1573
01:12:19,460 --> 01:12:20,320
all throughout,

1574
01:12:20,780 --> 01:12:21,340
where people,

1575
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:22,540
you know, on paper don't seem like they would be.

1576
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:26,120
able to run the thing and they run it extremely successfully.

1577
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:27,140
And he does it wrong.

1578
01:12:27,340 --> 01:12:30,340
Sometimes he's had a horrible track record with the solar roof

1579
01:12:31,020 --> 01:12:31,670
division.

1580
01:12:32,480 --> 01:12:34,260
Wonderful guy named Brian Dow.

1581
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:35,680
I really liked him.

1582
01:12:36,300 --> 01:12:39,840
And when they were doing the battery factory surge in Nevada,

1583
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:43,880
Musk got rid of two or three people and there's Brian Dow.

1584
01:12:44,260 --> 01:12:45,580
Can do, can do, can do.

1585
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:47,540
Stays up all night and he gets promoted and runs it.

1586
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:52,640
And so finally Musk goes through two or three people running the solar roof division.

1587
01:12:53,380 --> 01:12:54,740
Finally calls up Brian Dow.

1588
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,060
I was sitting in Musk's house in Boca Chica, that little tiny

1589
01:12:58,760 --> 01:12:59,600
two bedroom he has.

1590
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:04,160
And he offers Brian Dow the job of running solar roof.

1591
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:08,240
And you know, Brian there, okay, can do, can do.

1592
01:13:09,060 --> 01:13:14,180
And two or three times Musk insisted that they install a solar

1593
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:16,760
roof in one of those houses in Boca Chica.

1594
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:19,760
This is this tiny village at the south end of Texas.

1595
01:13:21,020 --> 01:13:21,880
And late at night,

1596
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:25,140
I mean, I'd have to climb up to the top of the roof on these

1597
01:13:25,380 --> 01:13:27,400
ladders and stand on this peaked roof

1598
01:13:27,940 --> 01:13:29,640
as Musk is there saying,

1599
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:31,900
why do we need four screws to

1600
01:13:31,900 --> 01:13:33,660
put in this single leg?

1601
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:37,220
And Brian was just sweating and doing everything.

1602
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:41,480
But then after a couple of months it wasn't going well and boom,

1603
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:44,060
Musk just fired him.

1604
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:46,180
So I always try to learn,

1605
01:13:46,820 --> 01:13:50,460
what is it that makes those who stay thrive?

1606
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:52,400
What's the lesson there?

1607
01:13:52,460 --> 01:13:52,900
What do you think?

1608
01:13:53,340 --> 01:13:57,220
Well, I think it's self-knowledge like an Andy Krebs or others.

1609
01:13:58,160 --> 01:13:58,600
They say,

1610
01:13:59,980 --> 01:14:00,600
I am hardcore.

1611
01:14:00,780 --> 01:14:04,560
I really want to get a rocket to Mars and that's more important than anything else.

1612
01:14:06,020 --> 01:14:07,380
One of the people,

1613
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:09,240
I think it's Tim Zeman,

1614
01:14:09,380 --> 01:14:10,780
I hope when he hears this,

1615
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:12,440
I'm getting him the right person,

1616
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:14,440
who took time.

1617
01:14:14,440 --> 01:14:17,940
It was working for Tesla autopilot and it was just so intense.

1618
01:14:17,940 --> 01:14:20,620
He took some time off and then went to another company.

1619
01:14:21,060 --> 01:14:23,380
He said, I was burned out at Tesla,

1620
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:25,940
but then I was bored at the next place.

1621
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:26,680
So I called,

1622
01:14:27,260 --> 01:14:28,820
I think it was Ashok at Tesla,

1623
01:14:28,860 --> 01:14:29,820
said, can I come back?

1624
01:14:29,860 --> 01:14:30,440
He said, sure.

1625
01:14:30,440 --> 01:14:32,580
He said, I learned about myself.

1626
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:34,400
I'd rather be burned out than bored.

1627
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:36,000
That's a good line.

1628
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:39,060
Can you just linger on

1629
01:14:39,740 --> 01:14:41,260
one of the three that

1630
01:14:41,260 --> 01:14:43,380
seem interesting to you in terms of excellence,

1631
01:14:43,700 --> 01:14:44,660
trustworthiness and drive?

1632
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:45,840
Which one do you think

1633
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:48,380
is the most important and the hardest to get at?

1634
01:14:48,540 --> 01:14:50,100
The trustworthiness is an interesting one.

1635
01:14:51,100 --> 01:14:52,880
Are you ride or die kind of thing?

1636
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:53,860
Yeah.

1637
01:14:54,220 --> 01:14:56,940
I think that especially when it came to taking over Twitter,

1638
01:14:57,060 --> 01:15:00,280
he thought half the people there were disloyal and he was wrong.

1639
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:02,680
About two-thirds were disloyal, not just half.

1640
01:15:03,740 --> 01:15:06,040
It was how do we weed out those?

1641
01:15:06,220 --> 01:15:09,600
He did something and made the firing squad,

1642
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:13,180
I call it, or the Musketeers, I think is my nickname for them,

1643
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:15,400
which is the young cousins

1644
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:16,740
and two or three other people.

1645
01:15:17,480 --> 01:15:18,900
He made them look at the Slack messages

1646
01:15:19,540 --> 01:15:20,560
these people had posted.

1647
01:15:20,820 --> 01:15:22,040
Everybody at Twitter had posted

1648
01:15:22,780 --> 01:15:24,980
and they went through hundreds of Slack messages.

1649
01:15:25,440 --> 01:15:29,040
If anybody posted on the internal Slack,

1650
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:33,000
that jerk, Elon Musk, is going to take over and I'm

1651
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:35,740
afraid that he's a maniac or something,

1652
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:37,560
they would be

1653
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:41,200
on the list because they want all-in loyal.

1654
01:15:42,060 --> 01:15:48,580
They did not look at private Slack messages and I guess people who are posting on a corporate Slack

1655
01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:52,920
board should be aware that your company can look at them.

1656
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:56,360
But that's more than I would have done

1657
01:15:56,360 --> 01:15:57,540
or most people would have done.

1658
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:01,500
That was to figure out who's deeply committed and loyal.

1659
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:03,440
I think that was mainly the case

1660
01:16:04,100 --> 01:16:04,600
at Twitter.

1661
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:08,020
He doesn't sit around at SpaceX saying who's loyal to me.

1662
01:16:09,540 --> 01:16:12,040
At other places,

1663
01:16:13,380 --> 01:16:17,700
it's excellence, but that's pretty well a given.

1664
01:16:18,300 --> 01:16:20,240
Everybody is like a Marc Jancosa,

1665
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:21,260
just whip smart.

1666
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:23,800
It's are you hardcore and all-in,

1667
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:25,780
especially if you have to move to this

1668
01:16:26,740 --> 01:16:30,280
spit of a town in the south tip of Texas called Boca Chica,

1669
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:32,660
you got to be all-in.

1670
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:33,240
Yeah.

1671
01:16:33,660 --> 01:16:35,900
That's the drive, the last piece.

1672
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:38,820
You, in terms of collaborating,

1673
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:40,500
one of the great teams of all time,

1674
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:41,260
Ben Franklin.

1675
01:16:41,260 --> 01:16:41,940
I like that.

1676
01:16:42,740 --> 01:16:43,560
I thought it was the Beatles,

1677
01:16:43,740 --> 01:16:44,880
but Ben Franklin is pretty good.

1678
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:46,080
Oh, no, no, no.

1679
01:16:46,120 --> 01:16:46,960
I'm sorry.

1680
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:47,160
Yeah.

1681
01:16:47,220 --> 01:16:48,100
Sorry to offend you so much.

1682
01:16:48,140 --> 01:16:50,400
Read the Constitution and read Abbey Road.

1683
01:16:50,620 --> 01:16:51,260
Look at Abbey Road.

1684
01:16:51,440 --> 01:16:53,060
They're both good, but they're in a different league.

1685
01:16:53,180 --> 01:16:53,920
Yeah, a different league.

1686
01:16:55,030 --> 01:16:58,680
One of the many things that comes to mind with Ben Franklin is

1687
01:16:59,260 --> 01:17:00,560
incredible time management.

1688
01:17:01,850 --> 01:17:04,920
Is there something you could say about

1689
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:08,920
Ben Franklin and about

1690
01:17:09,540 --> 01:17:10,080
Steve Jobs?

1691
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:12,760
I think interesting with Elon is that he, as you write,

1692
01:17:13,820 --> 01:17:15,020
runs six companies,

1693
01:17:16,420 --> 01:17:19,440
depends how you startling because it's own thing, I don't know.

1694
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:24,500
What can you say about these people in terms of time management?

1695
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:29,900
Well, Musk is in a league of his own in the way he does it.

1696
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:31,080
First of all,

1697
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:35,500
Steve Jobs had to run Pixar and Apple for a while,

1698
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:36,680
but Musk,

1699
01:17:37,900 --> 01:17:45,020
every couple of hours is switching his mindset from how to implant the neural link chip and what will

1700
01:17:45,020 --> 01:17:49,620
the robot that implants it in the brain look like and how fast can we make it move,

1701
01:17:50,440 --> 01:17:51,020
and then

1702
01:17:51,580 --> 01:17:53,140
the heat shield on the Raptor

1703
01:17:53,660 --> 01:17:54,120
or

1704
01:17:54,860 --> 01:17:55,640
switching to

1705
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:57,320
human imitation,

1706
01:17:57,760 --> 01:17:58,920
machine learning, full self-drive.

1707
01:17:59,820 --> 01:18:02,640
On the night that the Twitter board

1708
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:04,900
agreed to the deal,

1709
01:18:05,660 --> 01:18:07,440
this is huge around the world.

1710
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:08,500
I'm sure you remember,

1711
01:18:08,740 --> 01:18:10,780
like Musk buys Twitter.

1712
01:18:11,380 --> 01:18:12,340
It wasn't when the deal closed.

1713
01:18:12,420 --> 01:18:13,040
It was when

1714
01:18:13,670 --> 01:18:15,520
the Twitter accepted his offer.

1715
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:17,140
I thought, okay,

1716
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:19,000
but then he went

1717
01:18:19,660 --> 01:18:20,300
to Boca Chica,

1718
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:21,600
to South Texas,

1719
01:18:22,700 --> 01:18:26,200
and spent time fixating,

1720
01:18:26,620 --> 01:18:27,900
if I remember correctly,

1721
01:18:28,460 --> 01:18:30,800
a valve in the Raptor engine that

1722
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:32,380
had a methane leak issue,

1723
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:37,420
and what were the possible ways to fix it.

1724
01:18:38,300 --> 01:18:40,420
All the engineers in that room,

1725
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:43,000
I assume, are thinking about,

1726
01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:44,500
this guy just bought Twitter,

1727
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:45,420
should we say something,

1728
01:18:46,300 --> 01:18:50,860
and then he goes with Kimball to a roadside joint

1729
01:18:51,780 --> 01:18:53,420
in Brownsville

1730
01:18:53,940 --> 01:18:58,140
and just sits in the front and listens to music with nobody noticing really him being there.

1731
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:04,220
One of the things that's one of his strengths and sort of weaknesses in a way

1732
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:06,340
is in a given day,

1733
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:08,100
he'll

1734
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:10,740
focus serially,

1735
01:19:11,100 --> 01:19:13,580
sequentially on many different things.

1736
01:19:14,140 --> 01:19:19,240
He will worry about uploading video

1737
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,400
onto x.com or the payment system,

1738
01:19:22,740 --> 01:19:24,500
and then immediately switch over

1739
01:19:25,100 --> 01:19:26,620
to some issue with

1740
01:19:26,620 --> 01:19:34,140
the FAA giving a permit for Starship or with how to deal with Starlink and the CIA.

1741
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:37,500
When he's focused on any of these things,

1742
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:41,200
you cannot distract him.

1743
01:19:41,440 --> 01:19:43,460
It's not like he's also thinking about

1744
01:19:44,020 --> 01:19:48,380
dealing with Starlink, but I've got to also worry about the Tesla decision on

1745
01:19:48,980 --> 01:19:50,780
the new $25,000 car.

1746
01:19:51,660 --> 01:19:54,000
Now, he'll, in between these sessions,

1747
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:56,380
process information,

1748
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:57,760
then let off steam.

1749
01:19:58,600 --> 01:19:59,380
For better or worse,

1750
01:19:59,460 --> 01:20:00,500
he lets off steam by

1751
01:20:01,620 --> 01:20:04,940
either playing a friend in polytopia or

1752
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:06,620
fire off some tweets,

1753
01:20:06,980 --> 01:20:09,220
which is often not a healthy thing,

1754
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:12,160
but it's a release for him.

1755
01:20:13,830 --> 01:20:16,360
I once said he was a great multitasker,

1756
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:17,700
and that was a mistake.

1757
01:20:18,260 --> 01:20:19,080
People corrected me.

1758
01:20:19,440 --> 01:20:20,720
He's a serial tasker,

1759
01:20:21,580 --> 01:20:25,280
which means focuses intensely on a task for an hour,

1760
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:29,240
almost has a, what do they call it,

1761
01:20:29,360 --> 01:20:32,360
at restaurants where they give you a palate cleanser.

1762
01:20:32,700 --> 01:20:34,600
He does some palate cleanser with

1763
01:20:34,990 --> 01:20:37,640
polytopia and then focuses on the next task.

1764
01:20:38,220 --> 01:20:40,320
Is there some wisdom about time management

1765
01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:41,860
that you can draw from that?

1766
01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:44,340
There are some things that these people do and you say,

1767
01:20:44,780 --> 01:20:46,160
okay, I can be that way.

1768
01:20:46,220 --> 01:20:47,180
I can be more curious.

1769
01:20:47,220 --> 01:20:49,160
I can question every rule and regulation.

1770
01:20:50,620 --> 01:20:52,920
I just don't think anybody

1771
01:20:53,740 --> 01:20:59,700
should try to emulate Musk's time management style because it takes

1772
01:21:00,180 --> 01:21:04,860
a certain set of teams who know how to deal with everything else other than the thing he's focusing on

1773
01:21:05,540 --> 01:21:07,280
and a certain

1774
01:21:07,820 --> 01:21:10,440
mind that can shift,

1775
01:21:10,940 --> 01:21:12,760
just like his moods can shift.

1776
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:14,980
You and I go through

1777
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,100
transitions and also if I'm thinking about

1778
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:19,020
what I'm going to say on this podcast,

1779
01:21:19,060 --> 01:21:23,340
I'm also thinking about the email my daughter just sent about a house that she's looking

1780
01:21:23,340 --> 01:21:26,020
at, and I'm multitasking.

1781
01:21:26,700 --> 01:21:27,760
He doesn't actually do that.

1782
01:21:27,780 --> 01:21:31,280
He single tasks sequentially with

1783
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:33,200
a focus that's hardcore.

1784
01:21:33,660 --> 01:21:34,040
I don't know.

1785
01:21:34,140 --> 01:21:35,640
I think there's wisdom to draw from that.

1786
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:38,220
First of all, he makes me,

1787
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:40,280
Ben Franklin makes me feel that way,

1788
01:21:41,020 --> 01:21:42,860
that there's a lot of hours in the day.

1789
01:21:43,180 --> 01:21:45,160
There's a lot of minutes in the day.

1790
01:21:46,340 --> 01:21:50,380
There's no excuse not to get a lot done and that requires just an extreme focus,

1791
01:21:51,380 --> 01:21:53,540
an extreme focus and an urgency.

1792
01:21:54,260 --> 01:21:58,920
I think the fierce urgency that

1793
01:22:00,340 --> 01:22:02,240
drives him is important

1794
01:22:03,060 --> 01:22:04,620
and it's sometimes ginned up.

1795
01:22:05,860 --> 01:22:10,280
Like I say, the fierce urgency of getting to Mars and on a Friday night

1796
01:22:10,980 --> 01:22:15,400
at the launch pad in Boca Chica at 10 p.m.,

1797
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:17,420
there are only a few people working because it's a Friday

1798
01:22:17,420 --> 01:22:17,720
night.

1799
01:22:17,740 --> 01:22:20,020
They're not supposed to launch for another eight months.

1800
01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:22,440
And he orders a surge.

1801
01:22:23,020 --> 01:22:26,260
He says, I want 200 people here by tomorrow working on this pad.

1802
01:22:26,940 --> 01:22:29,040
We have to have a fierce sense of urgency

1803
01:22:29,040 --> 01:22:30,740
or we will never get to Mars.

1804
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:37,720
That sense of urgency is also a vibrancy

1805
01:22:38,870 --> 01:22:42,340
that's like really taking on life fully.

1806
01:22:42,580 --> 01:22:44,840
I mean, to me, that's the lesson is like,

1807
01:22:45,660 --> 01:22:49,260
even the mundane can be full of this just richness.

1808
01:22:49,540 --> 01:22:54,400
And like you just have to really take it in intensely.

1809
01:22:54,980 --> 01:22:56,180
So like the switching

1810
01:22:57,400 --> 01:22:58,780
enables that kind of intensity

1811
01:22:58,780 --> 01:23:00,420
because most of us can't hold that intensity

1812
01:23:00,420 --> 01:23:02,420
in any one task for a prolonged period of time.

1813
01:23:03,140 --> 01:23:04,360
Maybe that's also a lesson.

1814
01:23:05,780 --> 01:23:06,020
Right.

1815
01:23:06,380 --> 01:23:08,880
And I guess it goes back to also know who you are,

1816
01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:10,820
meaning there are people who

1817
01:23:12,100 --> 01:23:16,300
can focus intensely and there are people who can see patterns across many things.

1818
01:23:16,580 --> 01:23:18,040
Look, Leonardo da Vinci,

1819
01:23:19,180 --> 01:23:20,860
he was not all that focused.

1820
01:23:21,420 --> 01:23:23,540
He was easily distracted.

1821
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:24,000
Procrastinate.

1822
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:26,760
It's why he has more unfinished paintings

1823
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:28,820
than finished paintings in his canon.

1824
01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:32,300
But his ability to

1825
01:23:33,220 --> 01:23:35,320
see patterns across nature

1826
01:23:35,380 --> 01:23:39,340
and to in some ways process, procrastinate,

1827
01:23:39,720 --> 01:23:40,640
be distracted,

1828
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:42,860
that helped him some,

1829
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:46,260
but Musk is not that way.

1830
01:23:46,580 --> 01:23:47,060
And there

1831
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:50,340
every few months as a new surge,

1832
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:51,820
you don't know where it'll be,

1833
01:23:51,940 --> 01:23:56,480
but you'll be on solar roofs and all of a sudden we'll have a surge and there has to be,

1834
01:23:56,480 --> 01:24:00,420
you know, a hundred solar roofs built or this has to be done by tomorrow or

1835
01:24:01,060 --> 01:24:05,200
make a starship dome by dawn and surge and do it.

1836
01:24:06,230 --> 01:24:08,640
And there are people who are built that way.

1837
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:10,000
It is inspiring,

1838
01:24:10,900 --> 01:24:12,750
but also lets appreciate,

1839
01:24:13,440 --> 01:24:16,820
you know, that there are people who can be really good,

1840
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:22,900
but also can savor

1841
01:24:24,180 --> 01:24:24,800
the success,

1842
01:24:25,140 --> 01:24:25,780
savor the moment,

1843
01:24:26,180 --> 01:24:27,900
savor the quiet sometimes.

1844
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:32,260
Musk's big failing is he can't savor

1845
01:24:33,300 --> 01:24:33,980
the moment

1846
01:24:34,500 --> 01:24:35,060
or success.

1847
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:38,700
And that's the flip side of hardcore intensity.

1848
01:24:40,440 --> 01:24:41,760
In Innovators, another

1849
01:24:42,380 --> 01:24:43,500
book of yours that I love,

1850
01:24:43,620 --> 01:24:45,600
you write about individuals and about groups.

1851
01:24:46,540 --> 01:24:49,820
So one of the questions the book addresses is,

1852
01:24:49,900 --> 01:24:51,660
is it individuals or is

1853
01:24:51,660 --> 01:24:53,420
it groups that turn the tides of history?

1854
01:24:55,340 --> 01:25:02,300
When Henry Kissinger was on the shuttle missions for the Middle East peace is the first book I ever wrote.

1855
01:25:03,380 --> 01:25:05,440
He said, when I was a professor at Harvard,

1856
01:25:06,580 --> 01:25:09,020
I thought that history was determined by great

1857
01:25:09,140 --> 01:25:11,360
forces and groups of people.

1858
01:25:12,660 --> 01:25:13,980
But when I see it up close,

1859
01:25:14,180 --> 01:25:17,060
I see what a difference an individual can make.

1860
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:21,740
He's talking about Sadat and Golda Meir probably talking about himself too,

1861
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:23,920
or at least in his mind.

1862
01:25:25,340 --> 01:25:28,400
And we biographers have this dirty secret that we know,

1863
01:25:28,500 --> 01:25:29,700
we distort history a

1864
01:25:29,700 --> 01:25:32,640
bit by making the narrative too driven by an individual.

1865
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:35,460
But sometimes it is driven by

1866
01:25:35,460 --> 01:25:35,940
an individual.

1867
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:37,380
Musk is a case like that.

1868
01:25:37,660 --> 01:25:39,880
And sometimes, as I did with the Innovators,

1869
01:25:41,020 --> 01:25:46,010
there's teams and people who build on each other and Gordon Moore and Bob Noyce,

1870
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:48,500
then getting Andy Grove and doing the microchip,

1871
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:52,680
which then comes out and Wozniak and Jobs find it

1872
01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:57,400
at some electronics store and they decide to build the Apple.

1873
01:25:59,380 --> 01:26:01,160
And so sometimes there

1874
01:26:02,020 --> 01:26:05,460
are flows of forces and groups of people.

1875
01:26:06,200 --> 01:26:09,560
I guess I err a little bit on the side of looking

1876
01:26:09,990 --> 01:26:12,760
at what Steve Jobs and Elon Musk

1877
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:15,200
and Albert Einstein can do.

1878
01:26:16,180 --> 01:26:18,040
And I also try to figure

1879
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:19,260
out if they hadn't been around,

1880
01:26:19,420 --> 01:26:21,280
would the forces of history and the groups of people

1881
01:26:21,620 --> 01:26:22,880
have done it without them?

1882
01:26:23,240 --> 01:26:27,220
That's a good historical question as somebody who loves history.

1883
01:26:28,100 --> 01:26:29,060
And you think about

1884
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:30,640
special relativity,

1885
01:26:31,060 --> 01:26:32,620
one of the 1905 papers.

1886
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:36,200
Even after he writes it,

1887
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:38,760
it's four years before people truly get what he's saying,

1888
01:26:38,820 --> 01:26:40,840
which is it's not just how you

1889
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:42,140
observe time is relative,

1890
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:44,100
it's time itself is relative.

1891
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:46,160
And on the general theory,

1892
01:26:46,320 --> 01:26:47,720
which he does a decade later,

1893
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:50,760
I'm not sure we would gotten that yet.

1894
01:26:51,300 --> 01:26:53,480
What about moving us into

1895
01:26:53,480 --> 01:26:59,560
the era of an iPhone in which it's so beautiful that you can't live without a thousand songs in your pocket,

1896
01:27:00,300 --> 01:27:01,100
email and

1897
01:27:01,740 --> 01:27:04,260
the internet in your pocket and a phone?

1898
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:07,440
There are a lot of

1899
01:27:07,440 --> 01:27:11,280
brain dead people are from Panasonic to Motorola who didn't get that.

1900
01:27:11,300 --> 01:27:12,540
And it may have been a while.

1901
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:16,220
I certainly think it's true of the era of electric vehicles.

1902
01:27:16,980 --> 01:27:17,640
Jim and Ford,

1903
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:19,320
all the great people there,

1904
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:21,100
they crushed the bolt.

1905
01:27:21,200 --> 01:27:22,260
And I mean that literally,

1906
01:27:22,320 --> 01:27:23,840
they ended up smashing

1907
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:26,200
them because they decided to discontinue it.

1908
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:27,180
Likewise,

1909
01:27:27,780 --> 01:27:29,100
nobody was sending up rockets.

1910
01:27:29,740 --> 01:27:31,940
Our space shuttle was about to be grounded

1911
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:33,780
12 years ago.

1912
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:38,160
And so Musk does things

1913
01:27:39,220 --> 01:27:40,760
and there'll be people who say,

1914
01:27:41,300 --> 01:27:42,240
if they read the book,

1915
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:43,340
they'll see the full story.

1916
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:44,060
But they say it

1917
01:27:44,060 --> 01:27:45,460
wasn't Musk who did Tesla,

1918
01:27:45,580 --> 01:27:46,980
it was Martin Abba Hart or Mark Tarpenning.

1919
01:27:47,300 --> 01:27:47,620
No, no,

1920
01:27:48,220 --> 01:27:48,300
no.

1921
01:27:48,340 --> 01:27:50,460
There were people who had helped

1922
01:27:51,460 --> 01:27:55,040
create the shells of companies and other things

1923
01:27:55,580 --> 01:27:58,560
and they were all deserved to be called co-founders.

1924
01:27:59,300 --> 01:28:00,640
But the guy who actually

1925
01:28:01,200 --> 01:28:02,140
gets us to a million

1926
01:28:02,160 --> 01:28:03,620
electric vehicles a year

1927
01:28:04,480 --> 01:28:05,220
is Elon Musk.

1928
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:05,900
And without him,

1929
01:28:07,240 --> 01:28:09,300
I don't think we...

1930
01:28:09,300 --> 01:28:09,560
Look,

1931
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:15,860
if anybody five years from now buys a car that's gasoline powered,

1932
01:28:16,380 --> 01:28:18,830
we'll think that's quaint, that's

1933
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:19,500
odd.

1934
01:28:20,380 --> 01:28:21,660
I mean, suddenly we've changed.

1935
01:28:21,820 --> 01:28:22,680
We're not going to do it.

1936
01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:25,000
90% of that is Elon Musk.

1937
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:26,900
We're all mortal.

1938
01:28:27,820 --> 01:28:32,500
When and how do you think Elon will retire from the insanely productive

1939
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:33,980
schedule he's on now?

1940
01:28:35,160 --> 01:28:37,340
I would think that he would hate to retire.

1941
01:28:37,640 --> 01:28:39,520
I think that he can't live

1942
01:28:40,820 --> 01:28:41,900
without the pressure,

1943
01:28:42,260 --> 01:28:42,920
the drama,

1944
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:45,920
the all in feeling.

1945
01:28:49,140 --> 01:28:53,800
It's never been anything that seemed to have crossed his mind.

1946
01:28:54,260 --> 01:28:54,880
He's never said,

1947
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:58,940
maybe I love Larry Ellison's house on the beach in Hawaii.

1948
01:28:59,140 --> 01:28:59,820
Maybe I should

1949
01:29:00,420 --> 01:29:01,240
spend time in doing.

1950
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:03,240
Instead, he says things like,

1951
01:29:03,420 --> 01:29:06,380
I learned early on that vacations will kill you.

1952
01:29:07,620 --> 01:29:09,420
He gets malaria when he goes on one vacation.

1953
01:29:09,700 --> 01:29:11,360
I mean, he goes on vacation at one

1954
01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:13,260
point and they oust him from PayPal.

1955
01:29:13,480 --> 01:29:14,800
And then he goes to Africa one point,

1956
01:29:14,940 --> 01:29:15,720
he gets malaria.

1957
01:29:15,860 --> 01:29:17,240
He says, I've learned, vacations kill you.

1958
01:29:17,260 --> 01:29:17,780
Lesson learned.

1959
01:29:18,380 --> 01:29:20,360
Well, it's interesting because the projects are

1960
01:29:21,020 --> 01:29:22,960
hundred plus year projects.

1961
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:23,900
Many of these.

1962
01:29:24,020 --> 01:29:25,600
One of the weird things

1963
01:29:27,260 --> 01:29:28,580
is watching him think

1964
01:29:29,540 --> 01:29:30,880
incredibly long-term.

1965
01:29:31,740 --> 01:29:33,340
One of the meetings every week

1966
01:29:34,180 --> 01:29:36,980
early on when I was watching him

1967
01:29:37,500 --> 01:29:39,120
was Mars colonizer.

1968
01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:41,380
And we did through a two hour

1969
01:29:41,380 --> 01:29:45,020
meeting about what would the governance structure be on Mars?

1970
01:29:46,020 --> 01:29:47,200
What would people wear?

1971
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:49,440
How would the robots work?

1972
01:29:51,500 --> 01:29:54,560
And would there be democracy or should there be

1973
01:29:55,340 --> 01:29:58,300
a different form of governance?

1974
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:00,180
I'm sitting there saying,

1975
01:30:01,040 --> 01:30:01,520
what are they doing?

1976
01:30:01,620 --> 01:30:02,360
What are they talking about?

1977
01:30:02,980 --> 01:30:04,780
They're trying to build rocket ships and everything else.

1978
01:30:05,480 --> 01:30:08,140
They are worrying about the governance structure of Mars.

1979
01:30:08,740 --> 01:30:09,520
And likewise,

1980
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:13,840
whenever he's in a tense moment,

1981
01:30:14,140 --> 01:30:14,840
like there's a rocket that's

1982
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:15,660
about to be launched,

1983
01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:18,780
he'll start asking people something in the way future,

1984
01:30:19,580 --> 01:30:20,720
like the new

1985
01:30:21,840 --> 01:30:23,480
lead engine or something.

1986
01:30:23,540 --> 01:30:24,360
If we're going to build that,

1987
01:30:24,680 --> 01:30:26,780
do we have enough materials ready to

1988
01:30:26,780 --> 01:30:28,980
order or I don't know,

1989
01:30:28,980 --> 01:30:31,280
he'll just ask questions

1990
01:30:33,180 --> 01:30:35,460
like when he's building robot taxi,

1991
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:39,440
the global car, the $25,000 inexpensive global car.

1992
01:30:39,940 --> 01:30:41,280
That's not a total passion.

1993
01:30:41,480 --> 01:30:43,280
He was talked into doing that.

1994
01:30:43,700 --> 01:30:44,960
His passion is robot taxis,

1995
01:30:45,740 --> 01:30:48,480
but his passion is how are we going to make this factory

1996
01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:50,540
to do a million cars a year?

1997
01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:55,840
So even the robot taxi is a longer range vision.

1998
01:30:55,980 --> 01:30:58,340
I mean, he's been touting it since 2016,

1999
01:30:59,500 --> 01:31:00,820
but we're not.

2000
01:31:01,540 --> 01:31:02,740
There are no robot taxis.

2001
01:31:02,940 --> 01:31:03,120
I mean,

2002
01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:06,460
Waymo may be doing a little experiment, but there's not

2003
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:09,800
cars being manufactured without steering

2004
01:31:09,850 --> 01:31:12,140
wheels that are going to take over the highways.

2005
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:13,480
Yeah.

2006
01:31:13,480 --> 01:31:16,580
So he's always looking way into the future is my point.

2007
01:31:17,260 --> 01:31:25,230
I just hope that there's a lot of Da Vinci's and Steve Jobs's and Einstein's

2008
01:31:25,420 --> 01:31:28,760
and Elon Musk's that carry the flame forward.

2009
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:30,340
That's one of the reasons you write books

2010
01:31:30,340 --> 01:31:32,340
about these people is so that

2011
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:36,320
if you're a young woman in a school where you're not being told

2012
01:31:36,340 --> 01:31:40,040
to do science and you read the code breaker about Jennifer Doudna,

2013
01:31:40,340 --> 01:31:40,960
you say, okay,

2014
01:31:41,280 --> 01:31:42,260
I can be that.

2015
01:31:42,700 --> 01:31:44,180
And when you say,

2016
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:47,720
oh, maybe I'll be a regulator or you say,

2017
01:31:47,720 --> 01:31:49,960
oh no, maybe I'll be the person who pushes

2018
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:52,840
the boundaries, who pushes the lines,

2019
01:31:53,100 --> 01:31:55,860
who pushes, as Steve Jobs said, the human race.

2020
01:31:57,160 --> 01:31:58,280
Well, let me ask you about

2021
01:31:59,200 --> 01:31:59,940
your mind,

2022
01:32:01,020 --> 01:32:01,660
your genius,

2023
01:32:02,720 --> 01:32:03,660
your process.

2024
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:05,640
I'll give you two out of three.

2025
01:32:05,940 --> 01:32:06,240
All right.

2026
01:32:07,140 --> 01:32:08,900
Take me through your process of writing a biography.

2027
01:32:09,540 --> 01:32:09,820
I mean,

2028
01:32:10,320 --> 01:32:11,260
the full of it.

2029
01:32:11,900 --> 01:32:13,240
And not just writing a biography,

2030
01:32:13,820 --> 01:32:16,960
but understanding deeply,

2031
01:32:17,940 --> 01:32:21,460
which your books have done for the

2032
01:32:21,460 --> 01:32:24,980
human story and like the bigger ideas underlying the human story.

2033
01:32:25,060 --> 01:32:27,140
So you've written biographies both of individuals,

2034
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:29,740
which are hardly individuals.

2035
01:32:30,300 --> 01:32:32,260
It's a really big, complex picture.

2036
01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:34,460
And biographies of

2037
01:32:35,820 --> 01:32:39,400
ideas that involve individuals.

2038
01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:43,200
Well, step one for me is trying to figure out how the mind works.

2039
01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:50,720
What causes Einstein to make that leap for Elon Musk to say stainless steel

2040
01:32:50,720 --> 01:32:54,220
while he's looking at a carbon fiber rocket?

2041
01:32:54,740 --> 01:32:54,920
Or

2042
01:32:55,480 --> 01:32:57,020
how do you make the mental leap?

2043
01:32:57,600 --> 01:32:57,880
Because

2044
01:32:58,360 --> 01:32:59,400
I write about smart people,

2045
01:32:59,500 --> 01:33:01,000
but smart people are a dime a dozen.

2046
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:02,080
They don't usually amount

2047
01:33:02,100 --> 01:33:02,500
to much.

2048
01:33:02,620 --> 01:33:03,520
You have to be creative,

2049
01:33:03,880 --> 01:33:04,740
imaginative to think different,

2050
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:06,300
as Jobs would say.

2051
01:33:07,020 --> 01:33:08,480
And so what makes people creative?

2052
01:33:08,940 --> 01:33:10,940
What makes them take imaginative leaps?

2053
01:33:11,500 --> 01:33:13,140
That's the key question

2054
01:33:13,140 --> 01:33:14,240
you got to ask.

2055
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:16,720
You also ask the questions like you've asked earlier,

2056
01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:18,400
which is what demons

2057
01:33:19,060 --> 01:33:22,160
are jangling in their head and how do they harness them into drives?

2058
01:33:22,940 --> 01:33:23,760
So you look at all

2059
01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:26,940
that and you try to observe really carefully

2060
01:33:27,620 --> 01:33:28,400
the person.

2061
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:33,900
One of the more mundane things I do is

2062
01:33:34,860 --> 01:33:36,080
a lot of writers

2063
01:33:36,860 --> 01:33:40,220
try to give you a lot of their opinions

2064
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,160
and preach or whatever.

2065
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:48,500
As I said, this mentor said two people types come out, preachers storytellers.

2066
01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:50,620
Be a storyteller.

2067
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:54,000
I try

2068
01:33:54,620 --> 01:33:57,820
whenever I'm trying to convey a thought,

2069
01:33:58,860 --> 01:34:02,040
there's six magic words that I almost should have

2070
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:03,640
written on a card

2071
01:34:04,480 --> 01:34:06,060
pinned above my desk,

2072
01:34:06,440 --> 01:34:08,340
which is let me tell you a story.

2073
01:34:09,260 --> 01:34:10,460
So if somebody says

2074
01:34:11,220 --> 01:34:15,460
how does Elon Musk figure out good talent

2075
01:34:16,700 --> 01:34:17,280
as you did,

2076
01:34:18,140 --> 01:34:19,240
I think, well, let me tell you

2077
01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:19,580
the story.

2078
01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:21,100
I'll tell you the story of Jake McKenzie.

2079
01:34:22,540 --> 01:34:24,820
Or this is not something I invented.

2080
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:27,420
This is where the good Lord does it in the Bible.

2081
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:29,180
I mean, it has the best opening

2082
01:34:29,820 --> 01:34:32,440
lead sentence ever, you know, in the beginning, comma,

2083
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:34,020
and then it's stories.

2084
01:34:34,940 --> 01:34:38,240
And secondly, to pick up on that lead sentence in the beginning,

2085
01:34:38,780 --> 01:34:40,060
make it chronological.

2086
01:34:41,180 --> 01:34:44,960
Everybody in the 40th

2087
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:45,660
year of their life

2088
01:34:46,380 --> 01:34:49,440
has grown from the 39th year and the 38th year.

2089
01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:51,320
And so you want to

2090
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:53,700
show how people evolve and grow.

2091
01:34:54,760 --> 01:34:57,060
I had the greatest of all nonfiction narrative

2092
01:34:57,080 --> 01:34:59,400
attitudes, Alice Mayhew at Simon Schuster,

2093
01:35:00,100 --> 01:35:03,200
who among other things created all the president's

2094
01:35:03,200 --> 01:35:04,660
men with Woodward and Bernstein.

2095
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:07,720
But she had a note she'd put in the margins of my books

2096
01:35:08,340 --> 01:35:09,380
that was a tick to,

2097
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:11,540
and it meant all things in good time.

2098
01:35:12,400 --> 01:35:14,160
Keep it chronological.

2099
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:15,620
If it's good enough for the Bible,

2100
01:35:15,660 --> 01:35:16,540
it's good enough for you.

2101
01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:17,240
Interesting.

2102
01:35:17,280 --> 01:35:17,660
To me,

2103
01:35:17,960 --> 01:35:19,020
like that's a small note,

2104
01:35:19,580 --> 01:35:21,760
but to you, it's extremely important.

2105
01:35:22,020 --> 01:35:24,480
Because it's the framework for how you structure things,

2106
01:35:24,480 --> 01:35:26,280
but also how you understand things,

2107
01:35:26,440 --> 01:35:30,800
which is if you keep it a chronological narrative,

2108
01:35:31,620 --> 01:35:34,400
then you're showing how a person has grown

2109
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:38,520
from one experience you've talked about to the next one.

2110
01:35:39,340 --> 01:35:41,980
And that moral growth,

2111
01:35:42,340 --> 01:35:42,620
creative

2112
01:35:42,940 --> 01:35:44,260
growth, risk-taking growth,

2113
01:35:45,340 --> 01:35:45,840
wisdom,

2114
01:35:46,780 --> 01:35:49,660
that's the essences of creativity.

2115
01:35:50,020 --> 01:35:51,340
But you can't do it.

2116
01:35:52,120 --> 01:35:53,000
There's

2117
01:35:53,540 --> 01:35:59,780
a term, Bildungsroman, which is a book that carries a narrative and tells

2118
01:35:59,820 --> 01:36:00,700
how people learn something.

2119
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:03,240
I'm a big believer in narrative.

2120
01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:04,860
If you're an academic,

2121
01:36:06,740 --> 01:36:07,400
sometimes

2122
01:36:07,780 --> 01:36:10,880
not today, but in like 20 years ago, 30 years ago,

2123
01:36:12,200 --> 01:36:13,860
there were two things you thought were bad.

2124
01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:14,340
One was

2125
01:36:15,460 --> 01:36:20,580
having a great person theory of history in which you decided to do biography.

2126
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:23,300
I had a great professor when I was in college.

2127
01:36:23,660 --> 01:36:24,780
Her name was Doris Kearns.

2128
01:36:25,820 --> 01:36:27,040
She later married Dick Goodwin.

2129
01:36:28,020 --> 01:36:28,700
And she,

2130
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:31,780
when she was going for tenure at the university,

2131
01:36:32,780 --> 01:36:33,240
wrote a biography

2132
01:36:34,280 --> 01:36:36,220
of Lyndon Johnson and the American dream.

2133
01:36:36,520 --> 01:36:39,120
And they denied her tenure because it was

2134
01:36:39,120 --> 01:36:44,360
beneath the dignity of the academy to write history through one person.

2135
01:36:45,820 --> 01:36:46,720
That's great.

2136
01:36:47,000 --> 01:36:51,460
It opened up the field of biography to us non-academics,

2137
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:54,480
starting with David McCullough,

2138
01:36:55,460 --> 01:36:56,200
Bob Caro,

2139
01:36:56,980 --> 01:37:00,980
but maybe John Meacham and myself are in a new generation.

2140
01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:03,840
And certainly there's a generation coming after us.

2141
01:37:04,700 --> 01:37:07,500
But the second thing besides telling it through people, which

2142
01:37:08,560 --> 01:37:16,120
is the academy tended to disdain what they called imposing a narrative

2143
01:37:16,980 --> 01:37:18,440
and what you made it storytelling.

2144
01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:23,800
Cause that meant you were leaving things out and making it into a narrative.

2145
01:37:24,660 --> 01:37:24,960
Well,

2146
01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:29,460
that's how we form our views of the world.

2147
01:37:30,660 --> 01:37:34,740
Well, let me ask you this question in terms of gathering an understanding.

2148
01:37:36,940 --> 01:37:43,000
How much of it is one observing and how much of it is interviews?

2149
01:37:44,760 --> 01:37:44,960
Yeah.

2150
01:37:45,100 --> 01:37:47,220
Um, and obviously depends on the subject.

2151
01:37:47,520 --> 01:37:48,820
I mean, with a Ben Franklin,

2152
01:37:48,820 --> 01:37:50,520
it's all based on archives and every,

2153
01:37:51,180 --> 01:37:51,620
of course we have

2154
01:37:52,440 --> 01:37:53,780
40 volumes of letters.

2155
01:37:54,060 --> 01:37:57,120
He wrote, that was a good old days when every day you'd write 20 letters.

2156
01:37:58,040 --> 01:38:02,980
The must book is based much more on observation than almost any of my books,

2157
01:38:03,060 --> 01:38:08,660
because he opened up in a way that was breathtaking to me.

2158
01:38:09,100 --> 01:38:09,220
Yeah.

2159
01:38:09,720 --> 01:38:11,580
Even when he'd be sitting blank

2160
01:38:12,740 --> 01:38:16,340
polytopia or seething at other people,

2161
01:38:16,440 --> 01:38:18,620
you know, he had me just sitting there watching.

2162
01:38:20,060 --> 01:38:22,640
I mean, I spent a lot of time with Jennifer down in her side.

2163
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:26,360
I went to her lab and edited a human gene and, you know,

2164
01:38:26,680 --> 01:38:27,980
with a pipette and a test tube.

2165
01:38:28,520 --> 01:38:31,260
But I would say I spent

2166
01:38:31,900 --> 01:38:33,060
30 hours with her.

2167
01:38:33,560 --> 01:38:38,520
I can't count, you know, a hundred hours or more just observing mosque.

2168
01:38:39,180 --> 01:38:39,980
And I'm not

2169
01:38:41,360 --> 01:38:44,580
sure that any biographer,

2170
01:38:45,020 --> 01:38:46,980
perhaps since Boswell took on Dr.

2171
01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:51,200
Johnson has ever had quite as much

2172
01:38:52,620 --> 01:38:53,260
up close,

2173
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:57,720
meaning five feet away at all times access.

2174
01:38:59,600 --> 01:39:00,920
And because of that,

2175
01:39:01,540 --> 01:39:03,100
I'll go back to what I said a moment ago.

2176
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:05,580
I try to get out of the way of the story.

2177
01:39:06,180 --> 01:39:06,900
It's not about me.

2178
01:39:07,020 --> 01:39:09,140
It's not about, I try to just say, okay,

2179
01:39:10,320 --> 01:39:11,180
here's what happened.

2180
01:39:11,500 --> 01:39:12,280
Here's this story.

2181
01:39:12,300 --> 01:39:12,900
Here's what happened.

2182
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:17,460
And then the night he came in to Twitter for the first time and let you form your own judgment.

2183
01:39:18,480 --> 01:39:19,380
What about the interviews?

2184
01:39:20,460 --> 01:39:20,860
You've had

2185
01:39:21,880 --> 01:39:23,180
a lot of conversations.

2186
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:27,220
You give acknowledgement to the people you've done interviews with.

2187
01:39:28,660 --> 01:39:29,920
Well, one, I have to ask

2188
01:39:31,000 --> 01:39:32,920
as an aspiring interviewer myself,

2189
01:39:34,140 --> 01:39:34,990
how?

2190
01:39:36,340 --> 01:39:37,220
People love to talk.

2191
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:39,080
People just love, you know that.

2192
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:44,380
I've had 140, maybe 150 people, they're all listed in the back.

2193
01:39:45,100 --> 01:39:46,320
One of the little things

2194
01:39:46,350 --> 01:39:47,880
that people won't notice,

2195
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:48,900
but I'll say it now,

2196
01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:50,960
is all of them are on the record.

2197
01:39:51,340 --> 01:39:52,880
Getting them to talk is easy.

2198
01:39:53,060 --> 01:39:54,480
They all want to talk about mosque.

2199
01:39:55,060 --> 01:39:56,400
But then at a certain point say,

2200
01:39:56,760 --> 01:39:58,880
I don't put anonymous quotes in my book.

2201
01:39:59,920 --> 01:40:00,940
I cite things.

2202
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:02,180
I say,

2203
01:40:02,700 --> 01:40:03,520
if you're tough enough

2204
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:05,420
and you've gone through this,

2205
01:40:06,080 --> 01:40:08,700
and a lot of times it takes two or three calls back.

2206
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:11,120
Somebody will tell me, oh no, no, no, I don't want to.

2207
01:40:11,660 --> 01:40:16,180
But I think it's important to know where everything came from.

2208
01:40:16,720 --> 01:40:17,600
And with mosques,

2209
01:40:18,280 --> 01:40:19,000
I had that

2210
01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:21,480
from the very beginning because I was

2211
01:40:21,480 --> 01:40:22,740
a Time Magazine reporter.

2212
01:40:22,900 --> 01:40:25,660
I'd worked, a reporter for the Times-Picayune on New Orleans.

2213
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:27,660
First day on the job,

2214
01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:29,040
I had to go cover a murder.

2215
01:40:30,480 --> 01:40:33,320
I phoned in the story from a payphone and my editor,

2216
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:35,140
the city editor said,

2217
01:40:35,460 --> 01:40:36,880
well, did you talk to the family?

2218
01:40:36,940 --> 01:40:37,600
I went, no, Billy.

2219
01:40:37,700 --> 01:40:38,740
I mean, the family,

2220
01:40:39,060 --> 01:40:40,160
the daughter just got,

2221
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:41,940
he said, go knock on the door.

2222
01:40:42,100 --> 01:40:43,100
I knocked on the door.

2223
01:40:43,900 --> 01:40:45,500
An hour later, they were still talking.

2224
01:40:45,560 --> 01:40:47,000
They were bringing out her yearbook.

2225
01:40:48,160 --> 01:40:49,000
Lesson one I learned,

2226
01:40:49,280 --> 01:40:52,340
people want to talk if you're willing to just listen.

2227
01:40:53,940 --> 01:40:55,700
And whether it be Henry Kissinger,

2228
01:40:55,820 --> 01:40:57,640
you just push the button and say Kissinger,

2229
01:40:57,680 --> 01:40:59,000
and people tell you the stories.

2230
01:40:59,460 --> 01:41:00,860
All the way through Elon Musk,

2231
01:41:02,120 --> 01:41:02,840
everybody talked.

2232
01:41:03,060 --> 01:41:03,960
Everybody in his family,

2233
01:41:04,200 --> 01:41:05,880
everybody he fired, everybody.

2234
01:41:06,020 --> 01:41:06,320
I mean,

2235
01:41:07,160 --> 01:41:08,860
I think it's important to listen to people.

2236
01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:11,340
And the other thing I learned as a reporter,

2237
01:41:11,540 --> 01:41:13,560
back when I was covering politics in New Hampshire

2238
01:41:13,760 --> 01:41:14,980
and the early campaigns,

2239
01:41:16,000 --> 01:41:16,900
I learned from

2240
01:41:17,420 --> 01:41:20,480
two or three great reporters, a guy named David Broder and Tim Russert,

2241
01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:22,060
the late NBC guy.

2242
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:24,320
They do what was called door knocking.

2243
01:41:24,480 --> 01:41:25,560
You just walk in a neighborhood,

2244
01:41:25,660 --> 01:41:26,580
knock on a door

2245
01:41:26,700 --> 01:41:28,340
and ask people about the election.

2246
01:41:29,100 --> 01:41:30,420
But they said, here's the secret.

2247
01:41:31,660 --> 01:41:33,260
Don't ask any leading questions.

2248
01:41:33,500 --> 01:41:34,620
Don't have any premise.

2249
01:41:35,060 --> 01:41:37,800
Just say, hey, I'm trying to figure out this election.

2250
01:41:37,980 --> 01:41:38,720
What's going on?

2251
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:40,480
What do you think?

2252
01:41:41,020 --> 01:41:42,000
And then stay silent.

2253
01:41:42,660 --> 01:41:43,080
With Musk,

2254
01:41:43,460 --> 01:41:43,920
a third secret,

2255
01:41:44,640 --> 01:41:45,520
you know this well.

2256
01:41:46,660 --> 01:41:48,420
He'll go silent at times.

2257
01:41:49,180 --> 01:41:49,660
Sometimes

2258
01:41:50,320 --> 01:41:51,700
a minute, two minutes, four minutes.

2259
01:41:52,300 --> 01:41:53,640
Don't try to fill the silences.

2260
01:41:54,440 --> 01:41:55,360
If you're a listener,

2261
01:41:56,380 --> 01:41:57,480
you gotta learn,

2262
01:41:58,560 --> 01:41:58,940
okay,

2263
01:41:59,500 --> 01:42:01,040
he's not saying anything for four minutes.

2264
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:02,760
I can outlast him.

2265
01:42:03,040 --> 01:42:03,500
It's tough.

2266
01:42:03,920 --> 01:42:04,780
As humans, it's very tough.

2267
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:07,060
Respecting the silence is really, really difficult.

2268
01:42:09,180 --> 01:42:10,080
Speaking of demons,

2269
01:42:11,020 --> 01:42:13,240
when there's silence, all the demons show up in my head.

2270
01:42:13,820 --> 01:42:17,320
The fear, I think, is if I don't say anything,

2271
01:42:17,880 --> 01:42:18,540
it's boring.

2272
01:42:18,620 --> 01:42:19,420
And if I say something,

2273
01:42:19,440 --> 01:42:20,200
it's gonna be stupid.

2274
01:42:21,100 --> 01:42:23,420
And that's the basic engine that just keeps running.

2275
01:42:23,540 --> 01:42:24,620
Not on the podcast,

2276
01:42:24,760 --> 01:42:27,380
on the podcast, but also in human interaction.

2277
01:42:28,020 --> 01:42:30,140
And so I think there's that nervous energy

2278
01:42:30,140 --> 01:42:31,260
when interacting with people.

2279
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:33,260
You can never go wrong

2280
01:42:33,980 --> 01:42:35,020
by staying silent

2281
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:37,880
if there's nothing you have to say.

2282
01:42:38,540 --> 01:42:39,900
Not something I've mastered,

2283
01:42:40,880 --> 01:42:43,100
but I do, when I'm a reporter,

2284
01:42:43,140 --> 01:42:44,880
try to master that, which is

2285
01:42:46,580 --> 01:42:50,400
don't ask complex questions.

2286
01:42:51,260 --> 01:42:53,480
Don't interject.

2287
01:42:54,300 --> 01:42:56,360
And when somebody hasn't fully answered the question,

2288
01:42:56,800 --> 01:42:57,960
don't say, well, let me,

2289
01:42:58,380 --> 01:42:59,740
you know, just stay silent

2290
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:01,600
and then they'll keep talking.

2291
01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:03,860
Just give them a chance to keep talking.

2292
01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:05,440
Even if they've kind of finished,

2293
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:06,140
still.

2294
01:43:06,700 --> 01:43:08,140
Sometimes they haven't given you enough.

2295
01:43:08,440 --> 01:43:09,760
Instead of following up,

2296
01:43:09,900 --> 01:43:12,140
I'll just nod and

2297
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:12,980
keep away.

2298
01:43:13,400 --> 01:43:14,460
You're making it sound simple.

2299
01:43:14,760 --> 01:43:15,220
Is there

2300
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:17,700
a secret to getting people to open up more?

2301
01:43:18,180 --> 01:43:19,420
I'm somewhat lucky

2302
01:43:20,060 --> 01:43:22,120
because, you know, I started off working for

2303
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:24,000
a daily newspaper

2304
01:43:25,040 --> 01:43:26,620
and people back then,

2305
01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:29,780
they want to talk to the newspaper reporter.

2306
01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:31,640
But you also have a way about you.

2307
01:43:31,820 --> 01:43:32,900
Like, I feel like you have

2308
01:43:33,580 --> 01:43:35,300
like a cowboy in a saloon.

2309
01:43:35,320 --> 01:43:36,580
Like you just kind of want to talk.

2310
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:37,840
Like there's a draw.

2311
01:43:37,960 --> 01:43:38,460
I don't know.

2312
01:43:39,540 --> 01:43:40,700
I don't know what it is.

2313
01:43:40,840 --> 01:43:42,540
Maybe that's, I don't know if it's developer,

2314
01:43:42,580 --> 01:43:43,300
you're born with it,

2315
01:43:43,300 --> 01:43:46,020
but there's a, it feels like I want to tell you a story of some sort.

2316
01:43:46,260 --> 01:43:47,660
Good, tell me a story.

2317
01:43:47,980 --> 01:43:50,180
A couple things.

2318
01:43:51,280 --> 01:43:51,900
I did learn

2319
01:43:53,260 --> 01:43:54,100
to be more quiet.

2320
01:43:54,840 --> 01:43:57,020
I'm sure I know when I was

2321
01:43:57,560 --> 01:43:58,560
younger or even

2322
01:43:59,380 --> 01:44:02,640
I'll see videos of me at, you know,

2323
01:44:04,080 --> 01:44:07,100
news things where I'm always trying to interject a question.

2324
01:44:07,740 --> 01:44:11,820
And so you learn to be quieter sometimes.

2325
01:44:12,120 --> 01:44:13,240
I haven't mastered it.

2326
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:14,340
I haven't learned it enough.

2327
01:44:16,340 --> 01:44:18,380
You learn to be naturally curious.

2328
01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:22,120
Many reporters today, when they ask a question

2329
01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:24,640
or they're trying to play gotcha or trying

2330
01:44:24,660 --> 01:44:25,420
to get a news

2331
01:44:25,940 --> 01:44:27,120
scoop or trying to,

2332
01:44:28,620 --> 01:44:30,540
you know, gig something that can make

2333
01:44:31,120 --> 01:44:31,780
a lead.

2334
01:44:33,080 --> 01:44:33,760
And

2335
01:44:34,660 --> 01:44:36,080
if you actually

2336
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:37,720
are curious

2337
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:40,900
and you really want to know the answer to a question,

2338
01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:46,120
then people can tell that you asked it because you want the answer,

2339
01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:48,540
not because you're playing a game with them.

2340
01:44:50,040 --> 01:44:52,140
I'm sure some of them off the record,

2341
01:44:52,260 --> 01:44:53,420
some of them on the record, you had

2342
01:44:54,620 --> 01:44:55,300
maybe,

2343
01:44:55,760 --> 01:44:56,020
you know,

2344
01:44:57,460 --> 01:44:59,200
just some incredible conversations.

2345
01:44:59,560 --> 01:45:01,220
I was going to say some of the greatest conversations

2346
01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:02,160
ever, but who knows?

2347
01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:06,040
Some of the best conversations ever are probably somewhere in South America

2348
01:45:06,040 --> 01:45:08,660
between two drunk people that we never get to hear.

2349
01:45:08,900 --> 01:45:10,000
So I don't, I don't know.

2350
01:45:10,300 --> 01:45:11,260
But is

2351
01:45:12,260 --> 01:45:13,760
there a device you can give

2352
01:45:14,780 --> 01:45:18,960
from what you've learned to somebody like me and how to have good conversation,

2353
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:20,820
especially once recorded?

2354
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:23,420
Well, to be actually curious.

2355
01:45:23,940 --> 01:45:27,260
I mean, every question you've asked me is because I think you actually want to know

2356
01:45:27,260 --> 01:45:29,500
the answer and you've done your homework

2357
01:45:30,420 --> 01:45:33,300
to be open and not to have an agenda.

2358
01:45:34,180 --> 01:45:35,660
I mean, we all

2359
01:45:36,540 --> 01:45:39,980
suffer from there being too many agendas in the world today.

2360
01:45:41,220 --> 01:45:41,500
Yeah.

2361
01:45:41,500 --> 01:45:42,980
So that is just genuine curiosity,

2362
01:45:43,200 --> 01:45:46,120
but, um, there's something when you talk

2363
01:45:46,140 --> 01:45:47,480
about just one-on-one interaction,

2364
01:45:49,260 --> 01:45:50,820
whether it's Elon or Steve jobs or

2365
01:45:52,140 --> 01:45:53,180
there's something

2366
01:45:54,500 --> 01:45:56,580
beautiful about that person's mind.

2367
01:45:57,280 --> 01:45:58,280
And it feels like

2368
01:45:59,560 --> 01:46:00,520
it's possible

2369
01:46:01,240 --> 01:46:02,220
to reveal that,

2370
01:46:03,500 --> 01:46:04,980
to discover that together

2371
01:46:06,420 --> 01:46:07,280
efficiently.

2372
01:46:08,700 --> 01:46:10,660
And that's kind of the goal of a conversation.

2373
01:46:11,160 --> 01:46:12,120
Well, I mean, look,

2374
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:17,140
you're amongst the top podcasters and interviewers

2375
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:18,780
in the world today.

2376
01:46:19,720 --> 01:46:21,620
You have an earnestness to you.

2377
01:46:23,340 --> 01:46:26,320
Um, Ben Franklin is the person who taught me,

2378
01:46:27,000 --> 01:46:27,600
I mean,

2379
01:46:28,040 --> 01:46:28,680
by reading him

2380
01:46:29,260 --> 01:46:31,360
the most about on conversation.

2381
01:46:31,520 --> 01:46:33,400
He wrote a wonderful essay on that.

2382
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:35,200
It includes on silence.

2383
01:46:36,700 --> 01:46:36,840
Uh,

2384
01:46:37,940 --> 01:46:39,540
but it includes

2385
01:46:41,460 --> 01:46:45,520
trying to ask sincere questions rather than

2386
01:46:46,880 --> 01:46:47,780
get a point across.

2387
01:46:48,800 --> 01:46:49,300
I mean,

2388
01:46:50,180 --> 01:46:56,640
it's somewhat Socratic, but whenever he wondered,

2389
01:46:57,360 --> 01:47:00,900
I wanted to like start a fireman's core in Philadelphia.

2390
01:47:02,680 --> 01:47:05,800
He would go to his group that he called the leather apron club

2391
01:47:06,560 --> 01:47:07,680
and they would pose a question.

2392
01:47:08,080 --> 01:47:09,220
Why don't we have it?

2393
01:47:10,020 --> 01:47:11,060
What would it take?

2394
01:47:11,200 --> 01:47:11,940
What would be good?

2395
01:47:12,400 --> 01:47:15,220
And then the second part is to make sure that you listen.

2396
01:47:15,740 --> 01:47:17,760
And if somebody has even just

2397
01:47:17,780 --> 01:47:19,040
the germ of an idea,

2398
01:47:20,040 --> 01:47:21,340
give them credit for it.

2399
01:47:21,440 --> 01:47:21,580
Like

2400
01:47:22,260 --> 01:47:23,240
as Joe said,

2401
01:47:23,780 --> 01:47:26,080
you know, the real problem is this,

2402
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:31,960
and I do think that

2403
01:47:33,060 --> 01:47:37,420
if I'm in situations and I just mean even a dinner or something,

2404
01:47:37,900 --> 01:47:38,420
I'm with somebody,

2405
01:47:39,940 --> 01:47:42,280
I'm usually curious and I'll,

2406
01:47:42,860 --> 01:47:44,300
the conversation will proceed,

2407
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:46,540
you know, with, with questions.

2408
01:47:46,740 --> 01:47:49,580
And I guess it's also because

2409
01:47:49,580 --> 01:47:52,660
I'm pretty interested in what anybody's doing,

2410
01:47:52,860 --> 01:47:53,960
whoever I happen to be with.

2411
01:47:55,820 --> 01:47:56,820
And that's

2412
01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:01,680
a talent you, you have, which is you're pretty genuine in your interests.

2413
01:48:02,860 --> 01:48:03,480
There are people

2414
01:48:04,500 --> 01:48:05,660
like Benjamin Franklin,

2415
01:48:06,180 --> 01:48:06,500
like the,

2416
01:48:07,340 --> 01:48:08,440
I'll say Charlie Rose,

2417
01:48:08,460 --> 01:48:09,900
even though he's in disfavor,

2418
01:48:10,380 --> 01:48:12,740
who are interested in a huge number of subjects.

2419
01:48:12,740 --> 01:48:14,280
And I think that helps as well

2420
01:48:14,680 --> 01:48:19,640
to be interested in basketball and opera and physics and metaphysics.

2421
01:48:21,140 --> 01:48:21,760
Uh, that was a Ben

2422
01:48:21,780 --> 01:48:23,620
Franklin, that was a Leonardo trick,

2423
01:48:24,060 --> 01:48:24,300
which is

2424
01:48:25,160 --> 01:48:26,740
they wanted to know everything you could

2425
01:48:26,740 --> 01:48:28,240
possibly know about every subject knowable.

2426
01:48:30,220 --> 01:48:32,240
But there's a different aspect of this,

2427
01:48:32,540 --> 01:48:33,400
which is, um,

2428
01:48:34,200 --> 01:48:36,000
that I would love to hear

2429
01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:38,260
how you've solved it or if you faced it,

2430
01:48:38,720 --> 01:48:39,860
that you're certainly disarming.

2431
01:48:41,860 --> 01:48:41,900
Uh,

2432
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:44,500
see, I'm like, uh, peppering you with compliments here,

2433
01:48:44,540 --> 01:48:45,300
trying to get you.

2434
01:48:45,440 --> 01:48:46,500
That's a very disarming method.

2435
01:48:46,660 --> 01:48:47,040
Yeah.

2436
01:48:47,400 --> 01:48:49,260
I've recently talked to Benjamin and Yahoo.

2437
01:48:49,480 --> 01:48:50,480
We'll, we'll talk again.

2438
01:48:50,700 --> 01:48:54,140
We unfortunately, cause a scheduling and complexities only had one hour,

2439
01:48:54,200 --> 01:48:55,620
which is very difficult,

2440
01:48:55,920 --> 01:48:56,900
very difficult

2441
01:48:57,340 --> 01:48:58,720
with the charismatic politician.

2442
01:48:59,660 --> 01:49:00,460
I understand this,

2443
01:49:00,780 --> 01:49:03,240
but he's also a charismatic talker,

2444
01:49:03,240 --> 01:49:05,500
which is very difficult to break through in one hour.

2445
01:49:07,060 --> 01:49:08,080
Um, but there are people have

2446
01:49:09,040 --> 01:49:09,840
built up walls,

2447
01:49:10,220 --> 01:49:12,380
whether it's because of demons or because of,

2448
01:49:12,380 --> 01:49:13,320
uh, their politicians.

2449
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:15,100
And so they have agendas and

2450
01:49:15,100 --> 01:49:15,980
narratives and so on.

2451
01:49:16,080 --> 01:49:17,900
And so to break through those,

2452
01:49:18,620 --> 01:49:20,660
um, I wonder if there's some advice, some

2453
01:49:21,040 --> 01:49:23,940
wisdom you've learned on how to, uh,

2454
01:49:24,760 --> 01:49:27,280
sort of wear down through water or whatever,

2455
01:49:28,900 --> 01:49:29,920
or whatever method,

2456
01:49:30,340 --> 01:49:32,300
the, the walls that we've built up as individuals.

2457
01:49:33,220 --> 01:49:34,500
I mean, you call it disarming,

2458
01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:36,580
which I don't know that I am,

2459
01:49:36,700 --> 01:49:38,380
but disarming basically means

2460
01:49:38,380 --> 01:49:40,600
you're taking down their shields also.

2461
01:49:41,500 --> 01:49:43,600
And you know, when people have a shield

2462
01:49:45,060 --> 01:49:47,860
and you try to give them comfort,

2463
01:49:48,520 --> 01:49:51,120
I had zero of that problem with Elon Musk.

2464
01:49:51,780 --> 01:49:52,400
I mean, it was

2465
01:49:53,180 --> 01:49:54,160
like disarming to me,

2466
01:49:54,560 --> 01:49:54,820
which is

2467
01:49:55,420 --> 01:49:56,640
I kept waiting to say,

2468
01:49:56,720 --> 01:49:57,580
okay, he's not going to,

2469
01:49:57,700 --> 01:49:59,440
he's, he's got a shell or he won't do that.

2470
01:50:00,100 --> 01:50:00,620
But

2471
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:01,700
he was,

2472
01:50:02,700 --> 01:50:04,040
um,

2473
01:50:04,600 --> 01:50:05,100
almost

2474
01:50:05,760 --> 01:50:09,280
crazily open

2475
01:50:10,360 --> 01:50:14,400
and did not seem to, uh,

2476
01:50:14,900 --> 01:50:18,080
want to be spinning or hiding or faking things.

2477
01:50:18,980 --> 01:50:20,240
Um,

2478
01:50:21,240 --> 01:50:22,300
and I've been lucky.

2479
01:50:23,280 --> 01:50:24,360
Doudna was that way.

2480
01:50:25,100 --> 01:50:27,160
Steve Jobs was that way,

2481
01:50:27,780 --> 01:50:29,260
which you have to put in time too.

2482
01:50:29,480 --> 01:50:30,200
In other words, um,

2483
01:50:31,220 --> 01:50:36,140
you can't say, okay, there's a one hour interview and I'm going to break down every wall.

2484
01:50:36,400 --> 01:50:37,800
It's like on your fifth visit.

2485
01:50:39,620 --> 01:50:41,660
One of the things in my situation, you learn

2486
01:50:43,320 --> 01:50:44,500
fifth visit is very nice,

2487
01:50:44,620 --> 01:50:45,980
but sometimes you don't get a fifth visit.

2488
01:50:46,400 --> 01:50:47,540
Sometimes it's just the first date.

2489
01:50:48,420 --> 01:50:48,880
And, um,

2490
01:50:49,480 --> 01:50:51,200
I think what it boils down to,

2491
01:50:51,280 --> 01:50:52,560
and we said disarming,

2492
01:50:52,840 --> 01:50:56,640
but there's something about this person that

2493
01:50:57,320 --> 01:50:57,840
you trust.

2494
01:50:58,740 --> 01:51:00,400
I think a lot of it just boils down to trust

2495
01:51:01,120 --> 01:51:02,540
in some deep human way.

2496
01:51:03,200 --> 01:51:03,640
And I think,

2497
01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:07,260
uh, with, with, uh, with many of the people I've spoken with,

2498
01:51:07,700 --> 01:51:10,060
sometimes the trust happens like after the interview,

2499
01:51:10,580 --> 01:51:11,800
which is really sad because

2500
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:12,980
it's like, oh man,

2501
01:51:13,340 --> 01:51:16,320
I've never been in your situation where I have a show.

2502
01:51:17,100 --> 01:51:17,760
I usually have.

2503
01:51:19,340 --> 01:51:19,660
Second,

2504
01:51:19,960 --> 01:51:23,720
I'm not a first date person.

2505
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:24,200
Yeah.

2506
01:51:24,200 --> 01:51:24,420
Yeah.

2507
01:51:24,420 --> 01:51:24,660
Yeah.

2508
01:51:24,720 --> 01:51:24,880
Well,

2509
01:51:25,240 --> 01:51:26,520
you know, but then I'm lucky.

2510
01:51:26,680 --> 01:51:28,980
I mean, I'm in, I say lucky, but I'm in print,

2511
01:51:29,560 --> 01:51:29,960
you know,

2512
01:51:30,520 --> 01:51:33,960
print is a couple thousand year old medium,

2513
01:51:34,100 --> 01:51:35,320
but there are those of us who love it.

2514
01:51:35,960 --> 01:51:39,840
Well, the nature of the podcast medium is that I'm a one,

2515
01:51:39,840 --> 01:51:40,940
one night stand kind of girl.

2516
01:51:41,990 --> 01:51:42,740
Uh,

2517
01:51:43,240 --> 01:51:44,600
let me ask you about objectivity.

2518
01:51:44,600 --> 01:51:46,880
You followed Elon and you follow Steve.

2519
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:47,620
Like you're,

2520
01:51:48,460 --> 01:51:50,240
I mean, I don't even know if you would say your friend,

2521
01:51:50,840 --> 01:51:52,420
you have to be careful with words like that,

2522
01:51:52,420 --> 01:51:53,680
but you're, there's an intimacy.

2523
01:51:54,040 --> 01:51:58,820
Um, and how do you remain objective?

2524
01:52:00,100 --> 01:52:03,780
Do you want to remain objective while telling a deeply human story?

2525
01:52:03,900 --> 01:52:04,260
Yeah.

2526
01:52:04,480 --> 01:52:06,120
I mean, I want to be honest,

2527
01:52:06,600 --> 01:52:09,540
which I think is akin to being objective.

2528
01:52:11,100 --> 01:52:12,800
Uh, I try to keep in mind

2529
01:52:14,250 --> 01:52:16,020
who's, who am I writing for?

2530
01:52:16,700 --> 01:52:18,140
I'm not writing for Elon Musk.

2531
01:52:18,640 --> 01:52:19,220
As I say,

2532
01:52:19,860 --> 01:52:20,880
I haven't sent him the book.

2533
01:52:21,260 --> 01:52:22,140
I don't know if he,

2534
01:52:22,400 --> 01:52:23,940
I don't think he's read it yet.

2535
01:52:24,140 --> 01:52:25,480
Um,

2536
01:52:26,380 --> 01:52:27,620
I've got one person I'm writing for

2537
01:52:27,840 --> 01:52:30,480
the open minded reader.

2538
01:52:31,400 --> 01:52:32,300
And

2539
01:52:33,600 --> 01:52:35,360
if I can put in

2540
01:52:35,980 --> 01:52:37,600
a story and say, well, that will

2541
01:52:38,360 --> 01:52:41,940
piss off the subject or that will really make the subject happy.

2542
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:44,100
That's irrelevant.

2543
01:52:44,300 --> 01:52:45,320
Or I try to make

2544
01:52:45,320 --> 01:52:47,000
that a minor consideration.

2545
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:49,500
It's will the reader

2546
01:52:51,240 --> 01:52:53,500
have a better understanding because

2547
01:52:53,520 --> 01:52:55,200
I've put this story in the book.

2548
01:52:57,520 --> 01:52:58,520
I'm a bit of a romantic.

2549
01:53:00,560 --> 01:53:04,640
So to me, even your Einstein book had lessons

2550
01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:07,280
on romance and relationships.

2551
01:53:07,460 --> 01:53:08,000
Oh dear.

2552
01:53:09,260 --> 01:53:13,680
So how important are romantic relationships to the success of a great men, great women,

2553
01:53:14,040 --> 01:53:14,480
great minds?

2554
01:53:16,060 --> 01:53:20,400
Well sometimes people who affect the course of humanity

2555
01:53:21,180 --> 01:53:22,500
have better relationships with

2556
01:53:22,580 --> 01:53:26,140
humanity than they do with the humans sitting around them.

2557
01:53:26,480 --> 01:53:28,800
Einstein had

2558
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:31,940
two interesting relationships

2559
01:53:32,380 --> 01:53:32,840
with wives.

2560
01:53:33,500 --> 01:53:35,440
His, you know, Maleva, his first wife was

2561
01:53:35,980 --> 01:53:37,600
a sounding board and help with the

2562
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:40,800
mathematics of the special relativity paper in particular.

2563
01:53:41,680 --> 01:53:42,260
Um,

2564
01:53:42,820 --> 01:53:44,200
but he didn't treat her

2565
01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:44,520
well.

2566
01:53:44,800 --> 01:53:45,300
I mean, he,

2567
01:53:46,040 --> 01:53:50,400
uh, made her like sign a letter that she wouldn't interrupt him.

2568
01:53:50,440 --> 01:53:53,940
She wouldn't, you know, and finally when she wanted a divorce,

2569
01:53:53,940 --> 01:53:54,800
he couldn't afford it

2570
01:53:55,460 --> 01:53:56,500
because he was still a patent clerk.

2571
01:53:58,180 --> 01:54:00,460
And so, uh, he offered her a deal,

2572
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:02,820
which is I think totally amazing.

2573
01:54:03,360 --> 01:54:03,760
He said,

2574
01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:04,800
one of these days,

2575
01:54:04,900 --> 01:54:06,360
one of those papers from 1905

2576
01:54:07,100 --> 01:54:08,400
is going to win the Nobel prize.

2577
01:54:09,740 --> 01:54:09,920
If

2578
01:54:10,500 --> 01:54:11,540
we get a divorce,

2579
01:54:12,380 --> 01:54:14,100
uh, you know, I'll give you the money.

2580
01:54:15,300 --> 01:54:16,100
Um,

2581
01:54:16,460 --> 01:54:17,120
that was a lot of money

2582
01:54:17,260 --> 01:54:19,280
back then, like a million dollars now or something.

2583
01:54:20,200 --> 01:54:21,220
And she's smart.

2584
01:54:21,300 --> 01:54:22,140
She's a scientist.

2585
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:24,100
She consults with a few other scientists.

2586
01:54:24,100 --> 01:54:26,340
And after a week or so she takes the bet.

2587
01:54:27,240 --> 01:54:28,540
Is that until what,

2588
01:54:28,850 --> 01:54:30,920
1919 that he wins his Nobel prize?

2589
01:54:32,880 --> 01:54:33,640
Uh, and

2590
01:54:34,500 --> 01:54:35,400
she gets all the money.

2591
01:54:35,440 --> 01:54:37,360
She buys three apartment buildings in Zurich.

2592
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:40,480
Uh, with his second wife, Elsa,

2593
01:54:41,240 --> 01:54:44,360
it was more a partnership of convenience.

2594
01:54:44,820 --> 01:54:45,660
It was not

2595
01:54:46,400 --> 01:54:47,500
a romantic love,

2596
01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:52,820
but he knew, and that's sometimes what people need in life is just a partner.

2597
01:54:53,500 --> 01:54:56,180
I mean, somebody who's going to handle the stuff you're not going to handle.

2598
01:54:56,880 --> 01:54:59,380
So I guess if you look at my books,

2599
01:55:00,980 --> 01:55:05,460
they're not great inspiring guides to personal relationships.

2600
01:55:06,620 --> 01:55:09,380
Let me ask you about actually the process of writing itself.

2601
01:55:10,260 --> 01:55:12,260
When you've observed, when you've listened,

2602
01:55:13,000 --> 01:55:14,540
when you've collected all the information,

2603
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:18,040
what's, uh, maybe even just the silly mundane

2604
01:55:18,040 --> 01:55:22,640
question of, uh, what do you eat for breakfast before you start writing?

2605
01:55:22,840 --> 01:55:23,520
When do you write?

2606
01:55:23,820 --> 01:55:24,260
First of all,

2607
01:55:24,560 --> 01:55:26,380
breakfast is not my favorite meal.

2608
01:55:26,680 --> 01:55:28,760
And those people who tell you that you

2609
01:55:28,760 --> 01:55:30,200
have to start with a hearty breakfast,

2610
01:55:31,260 --> 01:55:32,580
I look askance.

2611
01:55:32,860 --> 01:55:33,300
Yes.

2612
01:55:33,460 --> 01:55:35,320
Uh, and morning is not my favorite

2613
01:55:35,440 --> 01:55:35,920
day part.

2614
01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:38,620
So I write at night and

2615
01:55:39,140 --> 01:55:41,460
because I love narrative,

2616
01:55:42,100 --> 01:55:43,800
it's easy to structure a book,

2617
01:55:44,120 --> 01:55:49,920
which is I can make a outline that if I printed it out or notes would be

2618
01:55:50,840 --> 01:55:51,840
a hundred pages,

2619
01:55:52,420 --> 01:55:53,760
but everything's in order.

2620
01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:55,020
In other words,

2621
01:55:56,960 --> 01:56:00,100
if we serve, if there's a burning man

2622
01:56:00,100 --> 01:56:03,280
and he's coming back from Grimes and then there's a solar roof thing,

2623
01:56:03,280 --> 01:56:04,400
and then there's something,

2624
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:07,240
I put it all in order

2625
01:56:07,820 --> 01:56:08,720
day by day

2626
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:10,720
as an outline.

2627
01:56:11,020 --> 01:56:12,360
And that disciplines me when

2628
01:56:12,360 --> 01:56:18,240
I'm starting to write to follow the mantra from Alice Mayhew, my first editor,

2629
01:56:18,760 --> 01:56:20,380
which is all things in good time.

2630
01:56:20,420 --> 01:56:21,520
Don't get ahead of the story.

2631
01:56:21,560 --> 01:56:23,040
Don't have to flash back.

2632
01:56:24,380 --> 01:56:26,080
Um, and then after you get it

2633
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:28,360
so that it's all chronological,

2634
01:56:28,380 --> 01:56:30,560
you know, things, then you have to do some clustering.

2635
01:56:31,120 --> 01:56:32,060
You know, you have to say,

2636
01:56:32,140 --> 01:56:35,320
okay, we're going to do the

2637
01:56:35,320 --> 01:56:40,600
decision to do Starship or to build a factory in Texas or to whatever.

2638
01:56:41,100 --> 01:56:45,020
And then you sometimes have the organizational problem of,

2639
01:56:45,320 --> 01:56:46,420
yeah, and that gets us all

2640
01:56:46,420 --> 01:56:47,460
the way up to here.

2641
01:56:48,140 --> 01:56:49,260
Do I keep that in this,

2642
01:56:49,260 --> 01:56:52,460
that chapter or do I wait until

2643
01:56:52,680 --> 01:56:55,080
later when it's better chronologically?

2644
01:56:55,660 --> 01:56:56,440
But those are easy.

2645
01:56:57,080 --> 01:56:59,200
Well, what about the actual

2646
01:56:59,880 --> 01:57:00,700
process of

2647
01:57:01,260 --> 01:57:02,140
telling the story?

2648
01:57:02,880 --> 01:57:05,120
Well, that's the mantra I mentioned earlier,

2649
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:06,980
which is whenever I get

2650
01:57:08,120 --> 01:57:09,460
pause or I don't know how to

2651
01:57:09,840 --> 01:57:10,420
say something,

2652
01:57:10,840 --> 01:57:12,480
I just say, let me tell you a story.

2653
01:57:12,660 --> 01:57:13,980
And then I find

2654
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:17,580
the actual anecdote, the story,

2655
01:57:18,880 --> 01:57:22,780
the tale that encompasses what I'm trying to convey.

2656
01:57:23,200 --> 01:57:24,560
And then I don't say what I'm trying to

2657
01:57:24,700 --> 01:57:25,060
convey.

2658
01:57:25,340 --> 01:57:28,700
I don't have a transition sentence that says,

2659
01:57:28,720 --> 01:57:33,960
you know, Elon sometimes changes mind so often he couldn't remember whether he had changed his mind or,

2660
01:57:34,240 --> 01:57:34,920
you know, you don't,

2661
01:57:35,420 --> 01:57:37,180
you don't need transition sentences.

2662
01:57:37,900 --> 01:57:38,480
You just say,

2663
01:57:38,860 --> 01:57:41,100
all right, here's the point I need to make next.

2664
01:57:41,840 --> 01:57:42,500
And so

2665
01:57:43,080 --> 01:57:45,040
you start with a sentence that says,

2666
01:57:46,020 --> 01:57:49,700
you know, one day in January in the factory in Texas, comma.

2667
01:57:51,020 --> 01:57:56,980
Well, one of the things that I'd love to ask you is for advice for,

2668
01:57:56,980 --> 01:57:58,800
for young people, to me,

2669
01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:08,440
first advice would be to read biographies in the sense because they help you understand of all the

2670
01:58:08,500 --> 01:58:10,520
different ways you can live a life well lived.

2671
01:58:11,540 --> 01:58:14,000
But from having written biographies,

2672
01:58:14,180 --> 01:58:17,300
having studied so many great men and women,

2673
01:58:17,980 --> 01:58:21,760
what advice could you give to people of how to live this,

2674
01:58:22,280 --> 01:58:22,700
this life?

2675
01:58:23,020 --> 01:58:28,040
Well, I keep going back to the classics and Plato and Aristotle and Socrates.

2676
01:58:30,060 --> 01:58:33,240
And I guess it's Plato's maxim, but he may be quoting Socrates,

2677
01:58:33,760 --> 01:58:35,760
that the unexamined life is not worth living.

2678
01:58:37,220 --> 01:58:39,100
And it gets back to the know thyself,

2679
01:58:39,520 --> 01:58:41,320
which is

2680
01:58:42,200 --> 01:58:44,080
you don't have to figure out what is the big

2681
01:58:44,100 --> 01:58:45,040
meaning of it all,

2682
01:58:45,560 --> 01:58:46,840
but you have to figure out

2683
01:58:47,740 --> 01:58:49,220
why you're doing what you're doing.

2684
01:58:50,780 --> 01:58:51,120
And

2685
01:58:52,100 --> 01:58:57,160
that requires something that I did not have enough of when I was young,

2686
01:58:58,200 --> 01:59:00,540
which is self-awareness

2687
01:59:01,660 --> 01:59:03,800
and examining every motive,

2688
01:59:04,600 --> 01:59:05,440
everything I do.

2689
01:59:07,640 --> 01:59:09,360
Where does the examination lead you?

2690
01:59:10,020 --> 01:59:13,900
Is it to, to, to a shift in,

2691
01:59:16,640 --> 01:59:17,680
in life trajectory?

2692
01:59:17,900 --> 01:59:18,360
I mean,

2693
01:59:18,960 --> 01:59:21,080
it's not for me sort of,

2694
01:59:21,220 --> 01:59:24,400
all right, I've now decided having been a journalist,

2695
01:59:24,500 --> 01:59:27,460
I'll run a think tank or I'll run a network

2696
01:59:27,460 --> 01:59:28,480
or I'll write a bio.

2697
01:59:30,020 --> 01:59:33,580
It is actually something that's more useful on an hourly basis.

2698
01:59:34,360 --> 01:59:34,860
Like,

2699
01:59:35,660 --> 01:59:40,220
why am I about to say that to somebody or why am I going to

2700
01:59:41,380 --> 01:59:43,280
do this particular act?

2701
01:59:44,360 --> 01:59:47,060
What's my true motive here?

2702
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:50,200
And also in the broader sense

2703
01:59:50,820 --> 01:59:53,380
to learn as I did after a couple of years at CNN,

2704
01:59:55,980 --> 02:00:02,850
I, my examination of my life is that I'm not great at running complex organizations.

2705
02:00:03,860 --> 02:00:05,640
I'm not great as a manager,

2706
02:00:06,380 --> 02:00:06,960
given the choice.

2707
02:00:06,980 --> 02:00:08,960
I'd rather somebody else have to manage me

2708
02:00:08,960 --> 02:00:10,400
than me have to manage people.

2709
02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:13,540
But it took me a while to figure that out.

2710
02:00:14,040 --> 02:00:14,680
And I was probably

2711
02:00:14,680 --> 02:00:18,040
too ambitious when I was young and at Time Magazine.

2712
02:00:19,000 --> 02:00:21,100
That was when I was green and,

2713
02:00:21,880 --> 02:00:22,240
oh, well,

2714
02:00:22,800 --> 02:00:25,880
that was when I was in my salad days in green and judgment.

2715
02:00:27,260 --> 02:00:29,280
And it was like chasing

2716
02:00:30,680 --> 02:00:32,880
the next level at Time Incorporated,

2717
02:00:32,880 --> 02:00:34,060
whatever it might be.

2718
02:00:35,080 --> 02:00:40,640
And then one day I caught the brass ring and I became an editor and then the top editor.

2719
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:42,560
And after a while I realized

2720
02:00:43,380 --> 02:00:44,860
that wasn't

2721
02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:48,020
really totally what I'm suited to be,

2722
02:00:48,020 --> 02:00:50,480
especially when I got put in charge of CNN.

2723
02:00:51,580 --> 02:00:53,660
I mean, all young people are almost by

2724
02:00:53,680 --> 02:00:56,460
definition in their salad days in green and judgment.

2725
02:00:57,600 --> 02:00:57,840
But

2726
02:00:59,160 --> 02:01:00,320
you learn

2727
02:01:00,980 --> 02:01:02,660
what's motivating you.

2728
02:01:02,720 --> 02:01:04,600
And then you learn to ask,

2729
02:01:06,160 --> 02:01:08,400
but is that really what I want?

2730
02:01:08,520 --> 02:01:10,600
Should I be careful of what I'm wishing for?

2731
02:01:13,320 --> 02:01:13,820
One of

2732
02:01:14,480 --> 02:01:17,280
the big examinations you can do is the fact

2733
02:01:17,820 --> 02:01:20,220
that you and everybody dies one day.

2734
02:01:21,700 --> 02:01:22,740
How much do you alter,

2735
02:01:23,360 --> 02:01:24,020
Isaacson?

2736
02:01:24,140 --> 02:01:24,760
Think about death.

2737
02:01:25,100 --> 02:01:25,860
Are you afraid of it?

2738
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:28,000
No, and I don't think about it a lot.

2739
02:01:28,060 --> 02:01:29,780
But I do think about Steve Jobs's,

2740
02:01:29,880 --> 02:01:30,800
let me tell you a story,

2741
02:01:30,840 --> 02:01:34,300
which is the wonderful Steve Jobs story of,

2742
02:01:35,120 --> 02:01:36,120
I think after he was

2743
02:01:36,120 --> 02:01:37,740
diagnosed, but before it was public.

2744
02:01:38,400 --> 02:01:41,140
And he gave both a Stanford talk, but other things,

2745
02:01:42,120 --> 02:01:43,400
in which he said

2746
02:01:44,160 --> 02:01:46,600
the fact that we are going to die

2747
02:01:47,700 --> 02:01:48,240
gives you focus

2748
02:01:48,760 --> 02:01:49,380
and gives you meaning.

2749
02:01:49,560 --> 02:01:50,260
If you're going to live,

2750
02:01:50,660 --> 02:01:52,660
and Elon Musk has said that to me,

2751
02:01:52,840 --> 02:01:54,520
which is a lot of the tech

2752
02:01:54,520 --> 02:01:58,420
bros out in the Silicon Valley that are looking for ways to live forever.

2753
02:01:59,080 --> 02:02:00,680
I can think, Musk says,

2754
02:02:01,000 --> 02:02:02,440
of nothing worse.

2755
02:02:03,160 --> 02:02:08,600
We read the myth of Sisyphus and we know how bad it is to be condemned to eternal life.

2756
02:02:10,460 --> 02:02:11,080
So

2757
02:02:12,820 --> 02:02:15,060
there was an ancient Greece,

2758
02:02:15,220 --> 02:02:19,020
the person who walked behind the king and said, memento mori,

2759
02:02:19,540 --> 02:02:20,680
remember you're going to die.

2760
02:02:21,400 --> 02:02:26,540
And it kept people from

2761
02:02:27,520 --> 02:02:28,860
losing it a bit.

2762
02:02:28,860 --> 02:02:30,320
Do you think about legacy?

2763
02:02:30,940 --> 02:02:33,780
The lucky thing about being a biographer

2764
02:02:34,820 --> 02:02:37,100
is that you kind of know what your legacy is.

2765
02:02:37,380 --> 02:02:39,600
There's going to be a shelf and it'll be of interesting

2766
02:02:39,620 --> 02:02:44,400
people and you will have inspired a 17 year old

2767
02:02:44,940 --> 02:02:48,360
biology student somewhere to be

2768
02:02:49,020 --> 02:02:55,620
the next great biochemist or somebody to start a company like Elon Musk.

2769
02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:02,060
And what I think more about,

2770
02:03:02,500 --> 02:03:03,540
I won't say giving back,

2771
02:03:03,600 --> 02:03:04,940
that's such a trite thing.

2772
02:03:05,560 --> 02:03:07,140
I moved back to New Orleans

2773
02:03:08,800 --> 02:03:09,520
for a reason.

2774
02:03:09,960 --> 02:03:11,220
First of all, the hurricane hit.

2775
02:03:11,820 --> 02:03:13,520
And after Katrina, I was asked to

2776
02:03:14,300 --> 02:03:16,520
be vice chair of the recovery authority.

2777
02:03:17,040 --> 02:03:17,620
And I realized

2778
02:03:18,360 --> 02:03:20,020
everything I've got going for me,

2779
02:03:20,820 --> 02:03:21,680
it all comes from this

2780
02:03:22,340 --> 02:03:22,940
beautiful

2781
02:03:23,940 --> 02:03:26,060
gem of a troubled city.

2782
02:03:27,200 --> 02:03:29,060
The wonderful high school I went to,

2783
02:03:29,080 --> 02:03:31,360
the wonderful streets where I learned

2784
02:03:31,380 --> 02:03:35,680
to ride a bike and it's got challenges.

2785
02:03:36,220 --> 02:03:38,120
I'm never going to solve challenges

2786
02:03:38,940 --> 02:03:41,120
at the grand global level,

2787
02:03:41,600 --> 02:03:43,160
but I can go back home

2788
02:03:43,940 --> 02:03:46,360
and say part of my legacy is going to be,

2789
02:03:46,980 --> 02:03:48,440
I tried to pay it back

2790
02:03:49,480 --> 02:03:50,280
to my hometown,

2791
02:03:50,780 --> 02:03:52,220
even by teaching at Tulane,

2792
02:03:52,240 --> 02:03:53,620
which I don't do as a favor.

2793
02:03:53,820 --> 02:03:55,460
I enjoy the hell out of it,

2794
02:03:55,940 --> 02:03:57,920
but it's like, all right, I'm part of a community.

2795
02:03:58,580 --> 02:04:03,260
And I think we lose that in America because people who are lonely are lonely because they're not

2796
02:04:03,340 --> 02:04:04,220
part of a community.

2797
02:04:04,660 --> 02:04:06,260
But I've got all my high school kids,

2798
02:04:06,640 --> 02:04:07,960
friends, they're all still in

2799
02:04:07,960 --> 02:04:08,360
New Orleans.

2800
02:04:08,460 --> 02:04:10,080
I've got my family,

2801
02:04:10,160 --> 02:04:11,420
but I also have Tulane,

2802
02:04:11,660 --> 02:04:13,020
institutions in New Orleans that

2803
02:04:13,020 --> 02:04:13,940
have been there forever.

2804
02:04:14,800 --> 02:04:18,380
And if I can get involved in helping the school system in New Orleans,

2805
02:04:18,760 --> 02:04:21,500
of helping the youth empowerment programs,

2806
02:04:22,200 --> 02:04:24,800
of helping the innovation center at Tulane,

2807
02:04:25,280 --> 02:04:27,200
I was even on the city planning commission,

2808
02:04:27,260 --> 02:04:29,000
which worries about zoning ordinances

2809
02:04:29,020 --> 02:04:30,940
for short-term rentals,

2810
02:04:31,900 --> 02:04:32,680
you know, go figure.

2811
02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:33,860
But it was like, no,

2812
02:04:34,280 --> 02:04:36,580
immerse myself in my community because my community

2813
02:04:37,780 --> 02:04:39,900
was just so awesomely good

2814
02:04:40,260 --> 02:04:42,860
at allowing me to become who I became

2815
02:04:42,890 --> 02:04:49,120
and has trouble year by year, hurricane by hurricane,

2816
02:04:49,740 --> 02:04:53,220
making sure that each new generation can be creative.

2817
02:04:53,760 --> 02:04:57,880
And it's a city of creativity from jazz to the food, to the architecture.

2818
02:04:58,460 --> 02:05:00,160
So when I think of,

2819
02:05:00,700 --> 02:05:01,760
I won't say legacy,

2820
02:05:01,860 --> 02:05:04,100
but what am I gonna do to pay it forward?

2821
02:05:04,180 --> 02:05:04,820
Which is

2822
02:05:05,420 --> 02:05:07,680
a lower level way of saying legacy.

2823
02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:11,920
I pay it forward by going back to the place where I began

2824
02:05:11,920 --> 02:05:13,580
and trying to know it for the first time.

2825
02:05:15,680 --> 02:05:18,880
That was a rip off of a TS Eliot line.

2826
02:05:19,120 --> 02:05:21,160
I don't want you to think I thought of that one.

2827
02:05:22,640 --> 02:05:24,140
Always cite your sources,

2828
02:05:24,140 --> 02:05:24,800
I appreciate it.

2829
02:05:24,820 --> 02:05:29,040
TS Eliot, if you ever need to figure it out, the four quartets,

2830
02:05:29,380 --> 02:05:30,700
that part at the end,

2831
02:05:30,940 --> 02:05:32,960
which is we shall not cease from exploration.

2832
02:05:33,540 --> 02:05:36,060
And the end of all of our exploring will be to

2833
02:05:36,060 --> 02:05:39,120
return to the place where we started and know it for the first time

2834
02:05:39,940 --> 02:05:42,420
through the unknown but half remembered gate.

2835
02:05:42,660 --> 02:05:43,580
It's just beautiful.

2836
02:05:44,040 --> 02:05:47,460
And that's been an inspiration of

2837
02:05:49,180 --> 02:05:52,060
what do you do in,

2838
02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:54,720
I guess if it's a Shakespeare play,

2839
02:05:54,880 --> 02:05:56,000
you'd call it act five.

2840
02:05:57,220 --> 02:05:59,920
Well, you go back to the place where you came and

2841
02:06:01,080 --> 02:06:03,960
don't sit there worrying about legacy,

2842
02:06:04,160 --> 02:06:05,320
but you'll sit there saying,

2843
02:06:05,620 --> 02:06:06,340
how do I make sure

2844
02:06:06,340 --> 02:06:07,680
that somebody else can have

2845
02:06:09,240 --> 02:06:10,120
a magical

2846
02:06:10,720 --> 02:06:12,540
trajectory starting in New Orleans?

2847
02:06:14,120 --> 02:06:17,500
Well, to me, you're one of the greatest storytellers of all time.

2848
02:06:18,000 --> 02:06:19,320
I've been a huge fan.

2849
02:06:19,380 --> 02:06:21,340
Definitely not true, but it's so sweet of you.

2850
02:06:21,400 --> 02:06:23,380
See, you can be- Brutally interrupting.

2851
02:06:26,870 --> 02:06:28,760
I think

2852
02:06:29,640 --> 02:06:31,000
probably Ben Franklin,

2853
02:06:32,080 --> 02:06:33,120
so for I don't know how many years,

2854
02:06:33,160 --> 02:06:36,500
15 years, Einstein all the way through today,

2855
02:06:36,820 --> 02:06:38,320
I've just been a huge fan of yours.

2856
02:06:38,460 --> 02:06:41,270
And you're one of the people that I thought surely

2857
02:06:41,880 --> 02:06:44,940
would not lower themselves to appear

2858
02:06:44,940 --> 02:06:46,840
and have a conversation with me.

2859
02:06:47,780 --> 02:06:49,820
And it's just a giant gift to me.

2860
02:06:49,840 --> 02:06:53,620
Hey, I flew into Austin for this because I am a big fan

2861
02:06:54,240 --> 02:06:55,460
and especially a big fan

2862
02:06:55,460 --> 02:06:57,240
because you take people seriously

2863
02:06:57,820 --> 02:06:58,260
and you care.

2864
02:06:59,040 --> 02:07:00,300
Thank you a thousand times.

2865
02:07:00,500 --> 02:07:03,180
Thank you for respecting me and for inspiring just

2866
02:07:03,180 --> 02:07:04,720
millions of people with your stories.

2867
02:07:04,980 --> 02:07:07,400
Again, an incredible storytelling, incredible human.

2868
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:09,200
And thank you for talking today.

2869
02:07:09,480 --> 02:07:10,020
Thank you, Alex.

2870
02:07:11,160 --> 02:07:14,900
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Walter Isaacson to support this podcast.

2871
02:07:15,200 --> 02:07:17,520
Please check out our sponsors in the description.

2872
02:07:18,060 --> 02:07:20,060
And now let me leave you with

2873
02:07:20,060 --> 02:07:21,800
one of my favorite quotes from Carl Jung.

2874
02:07:23,020 --> 02:07:24,080
People will do anything,

2875
02:07:24,940 --> 02:07:26,080
no matter how absurd,

2876
02:07:26,540 --> 02:07:28,680
in order to avoid facing their own souls.

2877
02:07:29,880 --> 02:07:32,740
One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light,

2878
02:07:33,560 --> 02:07:36,140
but by making the darkness conscious.

2879
02:07:37,280 --> 02:07:38,720
Thank you for listening and hope

2880
02:07:38,820 --> 02:07:40,240
to see you next time.

Translations:

Chinese (Simplified) transcription text:

沃尔特：我希望我的书不是一个操作指南，而是一个你可以与之并肩同行的人。你可以看到爱因斯坦是在德国长大的犹太人。你可以看到詹妮弗·杜德纳(Jennifer Doudna)作为局外人长大，或者莱昂纳多·达·芬奇(Leonardo da Vinci)或埃隆·马斯克(Elon Musk)在充满暴力的南非长大，父亲的心理也很困难。当他和他的兄弟一起去参加反种族隔离音乐会时，下了火车，有一个人头上插着一把刀，他们踏入血泊，血粘在他们的灵魂上。这会造成伴随你余生的疤痕。问题不在于如何避免留下疤痕？你如何处理它？

LEX：以下是与沃尔特·艾萨克森（Walter Isaacson）的对话，他是有史以来最伟大的传记作家之一。他写过关于阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦、史蒂夫·乔布斯、莱昂纳多·达·芬奇、詹妮弗·杜德纳、本杰明·富兰克林、亨利·基辛格的精彩书籍，现在又写了一本关于埃隆·马斯克的新书。我们隔着麦克风聊了好几个小时。我相信我们还会聊很多次。沃尔特是一位真正特殊的作家、思想家、观察家和人类。我强烈建议人们阅读他关于埃隆的新书。我确信短期内会存在争议，但从长远来看，我认为这将激励数以百万计的年轻人，特别是那些童年经历过困难、周围环境或自己思想都充满困难的年轻人，去解决最困难的问题。世界并为这些问题找到解决方案，无论可能性有多大。在这次谈话中，沃尔特和我涵盖了他的所有书籍，并利用其中的个人故事来讲述在科学、技术、工程、艺术、政治和生活中追求伟大的更大原则。埃隆的新书中有很多内容，我觉得最好保留下来，当我在这个播客上再次直接与埃隆交谈时，这很快就足够了。也许在这里值得一提的是，我与埃隆的友谊，以及金钱、访问、名誉、权力等任何其他影响都不会导致我永远牺牲我的正直。我确实喜欢赞扬人们的善良、同情和理解，但我也喜欢以尊重和同情的态度斥责人们的胡言乱语。如果我失败了，我的失败是因为缺乏技能，而不是缺乏诚信。我会努力进步的。这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。为了支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是沃尔特·艾萨克森。艰难的童年在伟人、伟人的生活中扮演什么角色？这是一个要求吗？它是一个催化剂还是只是一个简单的命运巧合？

WALTER：嗯，这不是一个要求。有些童年快乐的人表现得很好，但确实有很多真正有动力的人之所以受到动力，是因为他们正在驾驭童年的恶魔。就连奥巴马在回忆录中的一句话，就是，我认为每一个成功的男人要么努力不辜负父亲的期望，要么背负父亲的罪孽。对于埃隆来说，尤其如此，因为他有一个充满暴力和困难的童年，还有一个心理问题非常严重的父亲。他脑子里有那些恶魔在跳舞，通过驾驭它们，这就是他做比我可能做的更危险、更冒险、更狂野的事情的部分原因。

LEX：我写过埃隆谈到他的父亲，有时感觉就像是精神折磨，童年时与他的互动。你能描述一下你学到的一些东西吗？

WALTER：是的，嗯，Elon 和 Kimball 会告诉我，例如，当 Elon 在操场上被欺负，有一天被推倒在一些混凝土上时金博尔说，我真的认不出他了。我的意思是，他在医院住了将近一周。但当他回到家时，Elon不得不站在他父亲面前，他的父亲斥责了他一个多小时，说他很愚蠢，站在了打他的人一边。

LEX:这可能是埃隆一生中最痛苦的事件之一。

WALTER：是的。还有草原学校，这是南非男孩被送到的一种准军事营地。有一段时间，他骨瘦如柴。他非常不善于捕捉社交线索和情感线索。他谈到自己患有阿斯伯格症。所以他在这样的营地里受到了创伤。但第二次去的时候，他就长大了。他身高几乎达到了六英尺，并且学会了一点柔道。他意识到，如果他被打，他可能会受伤，但他会尽可能用力地打那个人的鼻子。因此，这种总是反击的感觉在埃隆身上也根深蒂固。我花了很多时间和他的父亲埃罗尔·马斯克交谈。埃隆不再和他的父亲埃罗尔·马斯克说话，金博尔也没有。已经好几年了。埃罗尔甚至没有埃隆的电子邮件。所以很多时候，埃罗尔会给我发电子邮件。和埃罗尔具有杰基尔和海德的性格之一。他是工程界尤其是材料科学界的伟大人物。我知道如何使用云母在南非建造一个荒野营地，以及它如何不传导热量。但他也会进入那些黑暗时期，在这段时期他只会遭受心理虐待。当然，梅·马斯克对我说，他很早就与埃罗尔离婚的母亲说，埃隆面临的危险是他成为了他的父亲。莱克斯，你时常和他在一起，你很了解他。他甚至会和你谈论恶魔，谈论在他脑海中跳舞的暗黑破坏神。我的意思是，他明白，他有自我意识，但你可能见过他有时被那些恶魔占据，他变得非常黑暗和非常安静。格莱姆斯说，我可以提前一两分钟知道恶魔模式即将发生。他会变得有点黑暗。有一次我在奥斯汀和一群人共进晚餐。你可以看出突然有什么东西触发了他，他就要昏过去了。我在会议上看到有人会说，我们不能以低于 200 美元的价格制造这个零件，或者不行，这是错误的。他会斥责他们。然后他就振作起来。正如你也知道的那样，他突然在手机上向你展示了 Monty Python 的短剧，并且还开玩笑。所以我觉得从童年走出来，有很多方面，甚至可能有很多性格，工程模式，傻瓜模式，魅力模式，幻想模式，还有黑暗模式中的恶魔。

LEX：你引用的关于埃隆的一句话对我来说真的很突出。我忘记了是谁发来的，但在这个男人的内心，他仍然是个孩子，那个站在他父亲面前的孩子。

WALTER：那是塔卢拉，他的第二任妻子。她很棒。她是一位英国女演员。他们实际上已经结婚两次了。塔卢拉说这就是他童年时的情况。他是个戏剧迷。金博尔也这么说。我问为什么。塔卢拉对他说，爱情和家庭与这些心理折磨有关。在很多方面，他都会引导。我的意思是，塔卢拉会在 2008 年公司破产或其他情况或之后的情况下与他在一起。而且他会因为压力太大而呕吐。然后他会传达他父亲说过的话，使用他父亲对他说过的话。所以她告诉我，在男人的内心深处，这个男孩仍然站在他父亲的面前。

LEX：你认为对我们许多人来说，这在多大程度上是正确的？

WALTER：我认为这是真的，但在很多方面都不同。我想说一些个人的事情，那就是我很幸运，也许这也有一点缺点，因为我有你能想象到的最伟大的父亲和母亲。他们是你想见到的最友善的人。我在新奥尔良一个神奇的地方长大。我父亲是一名工程师，电气工程师。他总是很友善。也许我没有那么有动力或那么疯狂。我不需要证明事情。所以我开始写关于埃隆·马斯克的文章。我可以写关于爱因斯坦、史蒂夫·乔布斯或莱昂纳多·达·芬奇的故事，如你所知，他们完全被恶魔撕裂，有不同的困难童年处境，甚至没有得到他父亲的合法化。所以有时候，我们这些幸运地拥有真正温柔、甜蜜童年的人，在成长过程中的恶魔较少，但我们在成长过程中的动力也较少，最终我们可能会成为博斯韦尔，而不是约翰逊博士。我们最终成为观察者，而不是行动者。所以我总是尊重那些在竞技场上的人。

LEX：你不认为自己是竞技场上的人。

WALTER：我有一个温柔、甜蜜的职业生涯我必须报道非常有趣的人，但我从未发射过有一天可能到达火星的火箭。我从来没有把我们带入电动汽车的空气中。我从来没有在工厂车间熬夜过。我没有那种冒险的动力或成瘾性。我的意思是，埃隆沉迷于风险。他沉迷于冒险。我，如果我看到一些有风险的事情，我会花一些时间计算，好吧，这里颠倒过来。但这是像埃隆·马斯克这样的人完成工作以及像我这样的人写埃隆·马斯克的另一个原因。

LEX：另一方面，考虑到埃隆或达芬奇的童年艰难，我想知道是否有一些智慧，一些几乎可以画出来的建议，可以给那些经历过困难童年的人。

沃尔特：我认为我们所有人都有恶魔，即使是我们这些在魔法世界长大的人。新奥尔良有可爱的父母。我们都有恶魔。生活中的第一条规则就是驾驭你的恶魔。知道你有雄心勃勃、没有雄心勃勃、或者你很懒惰等等。列奥纳多·达芬奇知道自己是个拖延症患者。我认为了解你的烦恼并知道如何利用它是很有用的。也知道自己擅长什么。我以马斯克为例。与埃隆相比，我更像金博尔·马斯克。我可能已经失去了同理心基因。那是什么意思是？嗯，这意味着我经营《时代》杂志时还不错。编辑部大约有 150 人，我认识他们所有人，我们度过了愉快的时光。当我去 CNN 时，我不太擅长担任一个组织的经理或执行官。我有点太在意别人不会生我的气或生我的气。例如，埃隆谈到了特斯拉总裁约翰·麦克尼尔。书上有。我和约翰·麦克尼尔聊了很长时间，他说，埃隆就是会解雇人。他对人确实很粗暴。他对眼前的人没有同情心。埃隆说，是的，没错。约翰·麦克尼尔不能解雇员工。他更关心取悦面前的人，而不是取悦整个企业或完成任务。过于渴望取悦他人可能会让你成为一名不那么强硬的经理。这并不意味着没有天赋过剩的伟人。本·富兰克林，天生具有取悦他人的欲望。约翰·亚当斯和其他人对他最严厉的批评是他在暗示，这意味着他总是试图让人们喜欢他。但事实证明，当他们无法在制宪会议上弄清楚大国家、小国家的问题时，当他们无法弄清楚《巴黎条约》时，无论它是什么，他将人们聚集在一起，并且是他的超能力。回到你所要求的教训，第一个就是驾驭你的恶魔。第二是了解自己的优势和超能力。我的超能力绝对不是一个强硬的管理者。在运行 CNN 一段时间后，我说，好吧，我已经证明我并不真正喜欢这个或不知道如何做好这件事。我还有其他天赋吗？是的，我认为我有能力真正仔细地观察人们，直接地写下来，但我希望叙事风格有趣。那是一种力量。这与管理一个组织完全不同。直到我经营 CNN 三年后，我才意识到我不适合在高度紧张的情况下担任高管。埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）被认为是在高度紧张的情况下担任高管，因此当事情变得不那么紧张时，当他们实际上制造了足够的汽车和火箭升空和着陆时，他会想到其他事情，这样他就可以激增并拥有更高的强度。他沉迷于强度，这就是他的超能力，这比成为一名优秀观察者的超能力要强大得多。

LEX：但我认为在此基础上，这不仅仅是对风险和戏剧性的沉迷。总有一个伟大的使命在它之上。所以我想说，这是对大局中的人的同理心。

WALTER：这是对人类的同理心，而不是对可能与你一起坐在会议室的三四个人的同理心。这是一件大事。你在很多人身上都看到了这一点。你看，比尔·盖茨、拉里·萨默斯、埃隆·马斯克。他们始终对人类的这些伟大目标抱有同情心。有时他们可能对面前人的情绪一无所知，有时甚至冷酷无情。正如你所说，马斯克比我见过的任何人都更受使命驱动。这不仅仅是使命，这就像宇宙使命，这意味着他有三个非常重大的使命。一是让人类成为太空文明，让我们进入多行星或到达火星。第二是让我们进入可持续能源时代，让我们进入电动汽车、太阳能屋顶和电池组的时代。第三是确保人工智能安全并符合人类价值观。我时不时地和他交谈，我们会谈论星链卫星或其他什么。或者他会向 SpaceX 公司的前辈们施压，说：如果你们这样做，我们这辈子就永远无法到达火星了。然后他会演讲在我们有生之年到达火星对人类意识来说有多么重要。我在想，好吧，这是某人试图激励团队的鼓舞人心的谈话，或者也许这是你在播客上所做的一种武断。但在我第 20 次看他的时候，我意识到，好吧，我相信这一点。他实际上是受此驱动的。

LEX：他感到沮丧和愤怒，因为这个特殊的小工程决策，大任务将无法完成。这不是鼓舞士气的话。这真是一种挫败感。

WALTER：还有不耐烦，一种挫败感。他内心最根深蒂固的事情可能就是他的使命。他有一次对我开玩笑说他小时候多么喜欢读漫画。他说，漫画书中的所有人，他们都在努力拯救世界，但他们都把内裤穿在外面，看起来很可笑。然后他停顿了一下说，但他们正在努力拯救世界。无论是乌克兰的星链，还是前往火星的星舰，还是试图获得全球新的特斯拉，我认为他对自己将在帮助人类完成重大事情方面发挥的作用有一种史诗般的感觉。并且喜欢漫画里的人物，有时很可笑，但有时又很真实。

LEX：当我读到这部分的时候，我想到了所有这样奋斗的年轻人。我认为很多人都有不同的方式，无论他们是在没有父亲的情况下长大的，无论他们是在身体、情感、精神虐待或任何形式的恶魔中长大的，正如你所说的。读起来真的很痛苦，但也非常鼓舞人心，如果你与那些恶魔并肩同行，如果你不让这种痛苦击垮你或以某种方式引导它，如果你可以这样说，那么你可以实现，你可以在这个世界上做伟大的事情。

WALTER：嗯，这是我们为什么写传记的史诗般的观点，比我想象的更史诗般。所以我说谢谢你，因为在某些方面你想做的是说，好吧，我的意思是，莱昂纳多，你谈论的是一个不合群的人，他是在芬奇村的私生子，他是同性恋，他是左撇子，他心烦意乱，他的父亲不会让他合法化。然后他漫步到佛罗伦萨小镇，成为文艺复兴时期最伟大的艺术家和工程师。我希望这本书能有所启发。 Jennifer Doudna，基因编辑先驱，帮助发现了 CRISPR，基因编辑工具，我的书《密码破解者》，她在夏威夷长大，感觉自己格格不入，在波利尼西亚村庄里，她是唯一的白人，也努力不辜负一个推动她的父亲。因此，如果人们可以读这些书，我应该说詹妮弗·杜德纳，我的观点是，她的学校辅导员告诉她，不，女孩不做科学。你知道，科学不适合女孩。你不会做数学或科学。所以这促使她说，好吧，我要做数学和科学。

LEX：只是快速打断一下，但是詹妮弗·杜德纳，你写了一本关于她的精彩书，诺贝尔获奖者，CRISPR 开发者，令人难以置信，21 世纪最伟大的科学家之一。

WALTER：对。我说的是詹妮弗·杜德娜（Jennifer Doudna）年轻的时候，她感觉真的非常不自在，就像你我和很多人一样，当他们有这种感觉时，他们读书，他们蜷缩在书里。于是，她的父亲在她的床上放了一本书，名叫《双螺旋》，这本书是詹姆斯·沃森 (James Watson) 写的，讲述了他与罗莎琳德·富兰克林 (Rosalind Franklin) 和弗朗西斯·克里克 (Francis Crick) 发现 DNA 结构的故事。她意识到，天哪，女孩可以成为科学家。我的学校辅导员错了。所以我认为书籍，就像她读的这本书一样，即使是一本漫画书，就像埃隆·马斯克读的那样，书籍有时也会激励你。我的每一本书都是关于那些完全创新的人，他们不仅仅是聪明，因为我们没有人能够与爱因斯坦和心理处理能力相媲美。但我们可以像他一样好奇、富有创造力，像他那样跳出框框思考，或者用史蒂夫·乔布斯的话说，与众不同。因此，我希望通过我的书，我想说的是，这不是一本指南，而是一个你可以与之并肩同行的人。你可以看到爱因斯坦是在德国长大的犹太人。你可以看到詹妮弗·杜德纳(Jennifer Doudna)作为局外人长大，或者莱昂纳多·达·芬奇(Leonardo da Vinci)或埃隆·马斯克(Elon Musk)在充满暴力的南非长大，父亲的心理也很困难。当他和他的兄弟去参加反种族隔离音乐会时，下了火车，有一个人头上插着一把刀，他们踏入血泊，血粘在他们的灵魂上。这会造成伴随你余生的疤痕。问题不在于如何避免留下疤痕？这就是你如何处理它？

LEX：爱因斯坦也是，我的一个，很难选出我最喜欢的你的传记，但是爱因斯坦，我的意思是，你真的画了另一幅图画，我不知道我不想称他为格格不入的人，而是称他为一个不一定拥有成功人生标准轨迹的人。所以这非常鼓舞人心。我不知道具体要问什么问题。有一百万。

WALTER：好吧，我先谈谈不合群的问题，因为我们讨论过莱昂纳多就是这样。爱因斯坦是德国的犹太人，而当时的情况开始变得困难。他学习说话的速度很慢，而且他是一个视觉思考者。所以他总是做白日梦，幻想一些事情。他第一次申请苏黎世理工学院，是因为他逃离了德国的教育体系，因为死记硬背的东西太多了。他被苏黎世理工学院拒绝了。现在它是苏黎世第二好的学校，但他们拒绝爱因斯坦。我试图找到苏黎世理工学院招生顾问的名字，但找不到。就像你拒绝了爱因斯坦一样。然后他的成绩就没有进入班上的前一半。一旦他这样做并进入研究生院，他们就不接受他的论文。所以他找不到工作。他不教这个。他甚至尝试了大约 14 所不同的高中、体育馆来找工作，但他们都不会录取他。所以他是三等生1905 年，瑞士专利局审查员。三等，因为他们拒绝了他的博士论文。所以他不能是二等或一等，因为他没有博士学位。然而 1905 年，他坐在专利局的凳子上，写了三篇彻底改变科学的论文。如果你认为在 1906 年他会被误解或不被赏识，那么他仍然是三级专利。 1907 年，他仍然如此。直到 1909 年，人们才意识到相对论的这一概念可能是正确的，并且可能会颠覆整个牛顿物理学。

LEX：科学史上最伟大的三篇论文怎么可能出现由这个人在一年内写成？您是否有一些见解和智慧？

WALTER：另外，他的日常工作是一名专利审查员。实际上有三篇论文，但还有一个附录，因为一旦你弄清楚了量子理论，然后你弄清楚了相对论，你就理解了麦克斯韦方程组和光速，他会做一些附录。这是整个物理学中最著名的方程，E 等于 MC 平方。所以今年是非常好的一年。部分原因是因为他是一位视觉思考者。我认为，他在专利局工作，而不是成为他应该遵守规则的学院某位教授的助手，这对他很有帮助。因此，专利局表示，制造同步时钟的设备是因为瑞士人刚刚进入标准时区，而正如你所知，瑞士人往往更像瑞士人。他们关心的是巴塞尔的钟表是否准时，它也应该这样做并在准确的结束时燃烧。所以你必须在两个遥远的时钟之间发送光信号。他正在想象沿着光束骑行的样子。他说，好吧，如果你追上它，如果你走得几乎一样快，它看起来就会静止。但麦克斯韦方程组不允许这样做。他说，他让我手心出汗，我很担心。所以他最终发现，因为他正在研究这些设备来同步时钟，如果你的旅行速度非常非常快，那么看起来与你同步或与你同步的东西与在另一个方向上快速旅行的人是不同的。那时他做出了精神上的飞跃，光速总是恒定的，但时间是相对的，取决于你的运动状态。因此，正是这种打破常规的思维和飞跃，使 1905 年成为了他的奇迹之年。与马斯克一样，我的意思是，在通用汽车和福特之后，每个人都放弃了电动汽车，只是说，我知道我们将如何找到一条道路，将世界的整个轨迹改变为电动汽车时代。然后，当他从俄罗斯回来时，他试图在那里购买一艘小型火箭飞船，以便将一个实验温室送到火星，但他们却取笑他们，甚至在一次喝醉的午餐中向他们吐口水。这是非常偶然的，因为在回家的飞机上，在达美航空的航班上，他就像在计算需要多少材料，多少金属，多少燃料，到底要花多少钱。所以他正在想象其他人认为不可能的事情。这就是史蒂夫·乔布斯的朋友所说的现实扭曲场。这让人们发疯。这让他们发疯，但也促使他们去做他们认为自己做不到的事情。

LEX：你说的是视觉思维。我想知道您是否看到了这些人的不同风格和思维方式的相似之处。那么，你认为埃隆、史蒂夫·乔布斯、爱因斯坦、达·芬奇之间有相似之处吗？特别是在他们的思维方式方面？

沃尔特：我认为他们都是视觉思考者，也许小时候有轻微的障碍，这意味着莱昂纳多是我想，他是左撇子，而且有点阅读障碍。当然，爱因斯坦也有审美干扰镜。他会重复一些事情。他学说话的速度很慢。所以我认为可视化有很大帮助。对于马斯克来说，当我和他一起走在工厂生产线上或在产品开发中时，我总是看到这一点，他会观察星际飞船助推器猛禽发动机下的隔热罩。他会说，为什么一定要这样？难道我们不能这样修剪吗？或者甚至去掉这一部分。他可以想象材料科学。我的书中有一些小轶事，但有一次他在特斯拉生产线上，他们试图在 2018 年每周生产 5,000 辆汽车。这是一个生死攸关的情况。他正在观察用螺栓将某些东西固定到底盘上的机器。他的一位伟大副官拉斯·莫拉维来了，他们必须召唤他。他说，为什么这里有六个螺栓？拉尔斯和其他人解释说，对于碰撞测试或其他任何事情，压力都会以这种方式出现，所以你必须这样做。他们都是废话，废话，废话，废话，废话。他说，不。如果你想象它，你会看到如果发生碰撞，力就会消失这边，那边。并且可以用四个螺栓来完成。现在这听起来很危险。他们去测试它并设计它，但事实证明这是正确的。我知道这看起来很小，但我可以给你 500 个这样的例子，在任何一天，他都在可视化工程或制造问题的物理过程。这听起来很平常。但对我来说，如果你说是什么让他与众不同，那就是使命驱动的东西。我给了你很多理由，但其中一个原因是他关心的不仅仅是产品的设计，而是可视化产品的制造，制造机器的机器。这就是过去 40 年来我们在美国未能做到的事情。我们外包了很多制造业务。如果您不知道如何制造您正在设计的东西，我认为您无法成为一名优秀的创新者。这就是为什么马斯克把他的设计师办公桌放在工厂的装配线旁边，这样他们就可以在它变成物理对象时可视化他们所画的东西。

LEX：所以从物理的角度理解一切对于软件来说，这就像端到端。

WALTER：嗯，端到端的控制很重要，对于史蒂夫·乔布斯来说当然如此。我正在看我的 iPhone。这是一件大事。该硬件只能与苹果软件配合使用，并且在一段时间内只能与 iTunes 商店配合使用。所以他有一个端到端的设计，使它像京都的禅宗花园一样，经过精心策划，但却很美丽。对于马斯克来说，当他刚加入特斯拉时，在担任首席执行官之前，当时他只是执行董事长，基本上是为其提供资金的财务人员，他们将一切都外包了。他们在日本制造电池，电池组将在泰国的一些烧烤店运送到英国的莲花工厂，装入莲花Elise底盘中，然后提及。那真是一场噩梦。您无法对制造过程进行端到端控制。于是他走向了另一个极端。他从丰田公司获得了位于弗里蒙特的一家工厂，他想在内部完成所有工作，包括内部软件、内部喷漆和电池。他自己制造电池。我认为端到端的控制是他性格的一部分。但这也将使特斯拉能够创新。

LEX：是的，我详细地看到并理解了其中的一个例子，那就是自动驾驶汽车大脑的发展，从移动眼睛开始从内部构建自动驾驶系统到基本上摆脱所有数据不丰富的传感器以使其对人工智能友好，有点说我们可以用视觉来完成这一切。就像你说的，拆下一些螺栓。所以有时是小事情，但有时是真正的大事情，比如摆脱雷达。

WALTER：嗯，仅摆脱雷达的愿景是巨大的，但每个人都反对它。大家。这仍然是一个挑战。他们仍在尝试开发下一代某种形式的雷达，但它又回到了最初的原则。我们正在谈论可视化。嗯，他从第一原理开始，物理学的第一原理涉及诸如人类仅通过视觉输入驾驶之类的东西。他们没有雷达。他们没有激光雷达。他们没有声纳。因此，物理定律没有理由认为仅凭视觉就无法成功创造自动驾驶。现在这成了他的信念，但他却遭到了很多阻力。顺便说一句，他并没有那么成功地在最后期限内实现自动驾驶。他太乐观了，但这是摆脱不必要的事情的首要原则。现在你会想LIDAR，为什么不使用它呢？比如为什么不使用暗恋呢？就像，是的，我们只能用视觉来做事，但当我在晚上看星星时，我也会使用望远镜。嗯，你可以使用激光雷达，但你无法大规模地使用数百万辆汽车。在某种程度上，你不仅要使其成为一个好的产品，而且还要使其成为一个规模化的产品。而且你无法根据谷歌地图之类的地图来实现，因为当新奥尔良天气太热时，它永远无法从新奥尔良开车到我想去的斯莱德尔。以全自动驾驶为例。他一直痴迷于他所谓的机器人出租车。我们将制造没有方向盘、没有踏板的下一代汽车，因为它将是完全自动驾驶的。你只要召唤它就可以了。你不需要驾驶它。好吧，一遍又一遍，我告诉过你的所有这些人，拉斯·莫拉夫（Lars Morave）和德鲁·巴格利诺（Drew Baglino）以及其他人，他们都说，好吧，好吧，这听起来确实不错，但这还没有发生。我们需要制造一款价值 25,000 美元、带有方向盘的普通大众市场汽车。是的，几个月前他终于转身说，我们开始吧。然后他开始关注装配线如何运作？我们将如何做到这一点，使其成为机器人出租车的相同平台，以便您可以进行相同的组装。同样，为了实现完全自动驾驶，他们通过编写数百个代码来实现数千行代码会说，如果你看到红灯，就停下来。如果有闪烁的灯，如果有两条黄线，请执行此操作。如果有自行车道，就这样做。如果有人行横道，就这样做。嗯，这确实很难做到。 Naly 仅通过人工智能和机器学习来做到这一点。 FSD12 将基于特斯拉驾驶员每周从特斯拉发出的大约十亿帧数据，并分析，当人类处于这种情况时会发生什么？人类做了什么？正如埃隆所说，我们只选择最好的人类、五星级司机、优步司机。所以他改变了主意并转向首要原则，但他说，好吧，我什至要改变完全自动驾驶。所以这不是基于规则的。它变得基于人工智能。就像ChatGPT不会试图回答你的问题一样，谁是最好的五个教皇什么的？ ChatGPT 通过吸收人们撰写的数十亿篇文章来做到这一点。这将是人工智能，但通过摄取视频来完成现实世界。

LEX：有时感觉他和其他人，他们正在这个世界上成功地构建东西，基本上自信地探索一个黑暗的房间，非常自信，对房间实际情况的雄心勃勃的愿景。他们只是径直走向黑暗。地上没有令人痛苦的玩具或乐高积木。我只是去走走。我确切地知道墙有多远。然后很快就愿意调整，当他们遇到时，他们踩在乐高上，他们的身体充满了很多痛苦。我的意思是，当你一路上发现真正好的想法，让你能够进行调整时，似乎就会发生这种演变。对我来说，自从几年前，当你看到 Andrei Karpathy，自动驾驶软件 2.0 的演变时，我就清楚地意识到这与汽车无关。这是关于机器人擎天柱的。如果我们一百年后回顾，汽车将被认为是一辆很酷的汽车，良好的交通工具，但自动驾驶仪将不再是控制汽车的东西。它将让具体的人工智能系统能够理解世界。从广义上讲，这种方法是你偶然发现的。特斯拉会成为一家汽车公司吗？它会是一家人工智能公司吗？它会是一家机器人公司吗？它会成为一家家庭机器人公司吗？它会是一家能源公司吗？然后，当你自信地带着愿景前进时，你会慢慢发现这一点。只要有这种信心的支持，观察这种演变就很有趣。

WALTER：为此需要做一些事情。一是敢于冒险。没有手电筒和地图，人们不会进入黑暗的房间，除非你是一个敢于冒险的人，除非你有冒险精神。第二个是拥有迭代的大脑循环，您可以在其中处理信息并进行反馈循环并使其发挥作用。第三，这就是我们在美国甚至全世界都未能做到的事情，那就是当你冒险时，你必须意识到你会把事情搞砸。前三枚火箭，即美国宇航局的猎鹰火箭，它们爆炸了。即使是星舰，也是三分半钟，但第一次就爆炸了。因此，我认为波音公司、美国宇航局和其他公司在不确切知道出口在哪里以及通往出口的照明路径的情况下，不愿意进入你的暗室。而创造美国的人们，无论五月花号是纳粹难民，还是冒着很大的风险来到这里。现在我认为我们的裁判员比冒险者还多，律师和监管者以及其他人说你不能这样做，这太冒险了，比愿意创新的人还要多。而你两者都需要。我认为你说的也对，50 年、100 年后，除了太空旅行之外，马斯克最让人铭记的就是现实世界的人工智能。不仅仅是擎天柱机器人，而且擎天柱机器人和自动驾驶汽车，它们几乎都是一样的。他们使用 GPU 集群或 dojo 芯片或其他任何东西来处理现实世界的数据。我们都对大型语言模型、生成预测文本人工智能感到非常兴奋，你在播客上也是如此。没关系，特别是如果您想与聊天机器人聊天。但圣杯是通用人工智能。其中最困难的部分是现实世界的人工智能。我认为，这就是擎天柱机器人或完全自动驾驶机器人远远领先于其他任何人的地方。

LEX：嗯，我喜欢你所说的闲聊。我想说，作为有史以来最伟大的作家之一，你谈论语言和语言的掌握只是闲聊，这很有趣。人们会因为一些话而坠入爱河。人们为了一些话而发生战争。我认为言语有很大的力量。这实际上是一个有趣的问题，世界的智慧，人类的智慧是在文字中，还是在视觉中，还是在物理中？我真的不知道——这是数学方面的。也许这一切都归结为数学，最后，这种关于真实的讨论也许世界人工智能与语言都是一样的。最近，我有机会与马克·扎克伯格先生一起在虚拟宇宙中闲逛，男孩就是那里的现实主义。未来发生的事情是令人难以置信的。我在匹兹堡接受了 10 个小时的扫描。我进入了虚拟世界，那里有一个我的虚拟版本，我必须和那个虚拟版本一起出去玩。你喜欢你自己吗？好吧，我从来不喜欢自己，但喜欢另一个人更容易。这很有趣。他喜欢你吗？他似乎不太关心。

WALTER：这就是缺乏同理心。

LEX：这让我开始比以前更多地质疑，这个物理现实有多重要？因为我必须在那个虚拟宇宙中看到自己和其他人，脸部的细节，所有你认为的事情，也许如果你在镜子里看着自己，都是不完美的，所有这些东西。当我看着自己和别人时，所有这些都是美丽的。这是真实的、激烈的、可怕的，因为你会想，好吧，你可以在虚拟宇宙中谋杀人吗？因为你被允许做什么？因为你可以复制很多这样的东西，你开始质疑什么是让生活值得在这里生活的基本东西，因为我们知道这是人类。

WALTER：你有没有和埃隆谈过他对生活的看法在模拟中可能是这样，你会如何判断这是否属实？

LEX：是的，有一种持续轻松的感觉，但也有一种严肃的感觉，这有点像游戏。

沃尔特：我对埃隆的一个理论，一个次要的理论，是他经常读《银河系漫游指南》。如你所知，那里有一个场景说，有一个关于宇宙的理论，如果有人发现了宇宙意义的秘密，它就会被一个更复杂的宇宙所取代。然后道格拉斯·亚当斯写的下一行是，还有另一种理论认为这已经发生了。我并不是想解决这个问题，但我知道埃隆·马斯克正在尝试这样做。这有一种幽默感。 《搭便车指南》充满了巨大的幽默感。我真的认为这帮助马斯克走出了他最黑暗的时期，让他获得了弄清楚生活到底是什么的乐趣。

LEX：我想知道我们是否可以说还有更小的一面，只是得到了非常了解埃隆，了解埃隆的愚蠢，愿意参与这一切的荒谬并从中获得乐趣。那是什么？这只是一种性格怪癖还是一个经营六家以上公司的人的一个基本方面？

WALTER：嗯，它是一个安全阀，就像电子游戏、Polytopia 和 Elden Ring 一样，是一个释放阀。他。如你所知，他确实具有爆炸性的幽默感。奇怪的是，当他从黑暗恶魔模式突然转变而你在会议室时，他真的对某件事感到不安。不仅有黑暗的气氛，而且还散发着黑暗的话语，他说，如果你死了，你的辞职就会被接受，等等。然后有什么东西弹出，他拿出手机，调出一部邦妮·蟒蛇的短剧，比如《愚蠢的行走学校》或不管约翰·克里斯是谁。他又开始大笑，事情就破裂了。几乎就好像他有不同的模式，模拟人类模式，工程模式，黑暗和恶魔模式，当然还有愚蠢和令人眼花缭乱的模式。

LEX：是的，你实际上已经打开了埃隆的书，引用了埃隆和史蒂夫·乔布斯的话。所以埃隆的引言是，对于任何我冒犯过的人，我只想说，这是在《周六夜现场》上，我只想说，我重新发明了电动汽车，我正在用火箭飞船把人们送到火星。你是否也认为我会成为一个冷漠的普通人？当然，还有史蒂夫·乔布斯的名言，那些疯狂到认为自己可以改变世界的人，才是真正改变世界的人。那么你认为老疯子和天才的作用是什么？您认为疯狂在其中扮演什么角色？

WALTER：嗯，首先，让我们都规定马斯克有时是疯狂的。我的意思是，然后让我们弄清楚，我尝试通过讲故事来做到这一点，而不是通过狂热和说教来实现这种疯狂。给我一个故事，告诉我一个轶事，告诉我他在哪里疯狂。几乎最后一个例子是人工智能，但他第一次发射星际飞船，在倒计时和发射之间，他去迈阿密参加广告销售会议，并第一次见到琳达·伊卡里诺，让她担任首席执行官。我的意思是，他有一种非常冲动的感觉。然后他飞回来，他们发射了星际飞船，你意识到这里有动力，有恶魔，也有疯狂。有时你想把它们拉出来。你想拿走他的手机，这样他就不会在凌晨 3 点发推文了。你想说，别再这么疯狂了。但后来你意识到，《一报还一报》的最后有一句莎士比亚的精彩台词。他说，即使是最好的人也是由错误塑造而成的。所以例如，马斯克的缺点包括一种可爱的疯狂，但也包括疯狂的疯狂，以及这种驱动和恶魔模式。我不知道你可以把那根线从织物中取出来，织物仍然是完整的。

LEX：我想知道，有时这让我感到悲伤，因为我们生活在一个甚至不庆祝黑暗的社会承认这一切都集中在一个包裹中是疯狂的。这是竞技场上的人与评论家的对抗。

WALTER：竞技场上的人与监管者的对抗，使其变得更加平淡无奇。

LEX：好吧，让我问的不仅仅是疯狂，但残酷。您已经写了一篇关于史蒂夫·乔布斯的报道。有人告诉你，要问的一个大问题是，他必须如此刻薄、如此粗暴、如此残忍、如此沉迷于戏剧吗？史蒂夫·乔布斯的这个答案是什么？他有必要这么残忍吗？

WALTER：对于乔布斯，我在报道的最后问了Was，因为这就是他在开头所说的，我们正在推出，我认为iPad 2、可能是这样。史蒂夫因为病了所以很消瘦。所以我对瓦斯说，你的问题的答案是什么？他说，好吧，如果我一直在经营苹果公司，我会对每个人都更好。大家都被困住了。我们一直像一家人一样。然后我不知道你是否知道瓦斯，他就像一只泰迪熊。他停顿了一下，微笑着说道，但如果我一直在运营苹果公司，我认为我们不会开发 Macintosh 或 iPhone。所以是的，有时你必须粗暴一些。乔布斯对我说了同样的话，他说，像你这样的人喜欢戴天鹅绒手套。现在我不知道我是否经常戴天鹅绒手套，但你喜欢人们喜欢你，你喜欢甜言蜜语，你喜欢糖衣。他说，我只是一个工人阶级的孩子，我没有那么奢侈。如果某件事很糟糕，我必须告诉人们它很糟糕。或者我有一支由 B 级球员组成的团队。嗯，马斯克也是这样。这又回到了我之前所说的，那就是，是的，如果我能在我的服饰店找到天鹅绒手套，我可能会戴上它们。我确实尝试给事情涂上糖衣。但当我经营 CNN 时，它需要重新塑造。它需要被打破。它需要炸掉某些东西。而我没有这么做。对我来说太糟糕了，但这让我意识到，好吧，我只会写一些能做到这一点的人。

LEX：嗯，这么说，我想可能是他们两个，但是埃隆当然，这样的话是我听过的最愚蠢的事情。

沃尔特：顺便说一句，我听杰夫·贝佐斯这么说过。我听比尔盖茨这么说过。我听史蒂夫·乔布斯说过。我听史蒂夫·乔布斯说过关于冰沙的事。他们把它做成一个完整的水果或其他东西。他们经常使用“愚蠢”这个词。

LEX：你知道还有谁用过这个词吗？

WALTER：埃罗尔·马斯克。他继续烘烤。埃隆站在他面前说，这是最愚蠢的事情。你是最愚蠢的人。你永远一事无成。我不知道。正如特斯拉总裁约翰·麦克尼尔所说，你一定要这样吗？可能不会。有很多成功人士都更加友善，但我想说，有时有必要比那些获得年度最佳老板奖杯的人更加残酷地诚实。

LEX：嗯，就像你说，这种想法确实也释放了一个信号。乔布斯八人的这个想法，确实给大家传递了一个信号。这是对所有参与其中的人的一种鼓励。

WALTER： 是的。 Twitter 也发生了这种情况。当我们在收购前一天去推特总部时，他正在让安德鲁和詹姆斯、他的两个年轻表弟以及自动驾驶团队的其他人检查代码行。马斯克本人则坐在大楼二楼，拿着笔记本电脑，看着 Twitter 工程师编写的一行行代码。他们决定解雇 85% 的员工，因为他们必须全力以赴。他说，还有心理安全、精神休假和远程工作的概念。然后就出现了，实际上是他的一个，我想是他的堂兄弟之一，或者也许罗斯·诺丁想出了一个主意，让我们不要那么粗暴，直接解雇所有这些人。我们问问他们，你真的愿意全力以赴吗？因为这将是硬核的。这将会很激烈。您可以选择，但我们希望您在今晚午夜之前勾选此框。我是铁杆，总而言之，我会亲自到场，我会工作，你知道，否则那不适合我。我有一个家庭，我有工作平衡，你也有不同类型的人以及他们人生的不同阶段。当我二十多岁的时候，以及当我五十多岁的时候，我更加铁杆一点，全力以赴。

LEX：是的。你写了一个非常好的想法，实际上有两个阵营，你发现，我不知道，我想知道这有多真实。听起来确实如此。你可以问别人，你属于哪个阵营？你是那种会珍惜的人吗他们自己喜欢熬夜到凌晨两点。编程还是什么？或者你是否看到了引用不引用的价值，你知道，关于生活，工作生活平衡，所有这些东西。这很有趣。我的意思是，就像你一样，人们可能会将自己分为不同的人生阶段，你可以直接问他们，对于某些处于特定发展阶段的公司来说，我们只想要核心人才是有道理的。

WALTER：或者某些团队。它甚至不必是一家完整的公司。你是对的。这又回到了我刚才所说的规则。第一个秘密是“认识你自己”显然来自柏拉图，一切都来自柏拉图和苏格拉底，但是，并在我人生的这个阶段做出决定。我，我想参加一场彻夜的黑客马拉松并改变世界吗？或者我想带来智慧和稳定，但也有平衡？我认为拥有不同风格的不同公司是件好事。问题在于，推特几乎处于一个极端，瑜伽馆和心理健康休假日，并将心理安全奉为人们永远不应该感到心理威胁的信条之一。而他，我记得他不断听到这个词时发出的苦笑。他说，不，我喜欢硬核这个词。我喜欢强度。我喜欢将强烈的紧迫感作为我们的经营原则。嗯，是的，也有人这样。

LEX：所以知道你是谁，知道你想建立什么类型的团队。与心理安全和到处都有太多的鸟相对。哦，是的。

WALTER：很多时候马斯克做了一些事情，我就走了，到底是什么？其中包括更改推特名称和去掉鸟类。我说，嘿伙计，这个品牌投入了很多。但当我看着他时，他想，好吧，这些可爱的小鸟以推特的名义发推文，这不是硬核。这并不激烈。因此，无论好坏，我认为他正在与那些发布硬核内容、持有硬核观点的人一起将行为带入硬核领域。对于蓝色格子的受膏精英来说，这不是一个有礼貌的婴儿围栏。我想，好吧，这会很糟糕。整个事情将会崩溃。嗯，它确实有问题，但它的核心强度也意味着那里会发生新的事情。因此，埃隆·马斯克不喜欢鸟儿叽叽喳喳、发推文并说“我想要更硬核的东西”，这是非常埃隆·马斯克的。

LEX：正如您在提到前 Twitter 首席执行官时所写的那样，埃隆说 Twitter 需要一个喷火龙。我认为这是一个很好的机会，可以回顾一下 Twitter 传奇中一些令人难忘的时刻，正如您在书中所写的那样，从考虑收购的早期到它是如何进行的，再到细节，例如你提到了工程团队。

WALTER：嗯，在 2022 年初，他正雄心勃勃，但正如我们所说，他是一个戏剧迷。他不喜欢鬼魂。特斯拉售出了 100 万辆汽车。我认为过去几个月里，猎鹰 9 号助推器已经发射并安全着陆了 33 枚。他是地球上最富有的人，也是《时代》年度人物。然而，他说，我仍然想把所有筹码放回桌面上。我想继续冒险。我不想去品尝那些东西。他卖掉了所有的房子。于是他开始秘密购买 Twitter 的股票。一月、二月、三月在某个时间点公开。我不知道是否应该声明。我们在奥斯汀的超级工厂的夹层楼里。他试图弄清楚，我该去哪里？当时，也就是 4 月初，他们打算为他提供一个董事会席位，而他将达成一项停滞协议，并停止在 10% 左右。现在请记住，我们当时就站在那里。这是卢克·诺齐克（Luke Nozick），你很熟悉他，肯·哈利（Ken Halry），他的一些朋友就在这个夹层楼。整个下午，然后一直到晚上吃晚饭时，我们都在想，我们应该这样做吗？我什么也没说。我只是一个观察者。但其他人都在说，请问，你为什么想拥有 Twitter？他的儿子格里芬也参加了晚宴。而梅，出于某种原因，也在城里。正如大家所说，不，我们不使用 Twitter。为什么要这么做？梅说，好吧，我使用推特。就好像，好吧，人口统计数据是我这个年纪或梅这个年纪的人。所以看起来他不会继续追求它。他们为他提供了一个董事会席位。然后他去了夏威夷拉里·埃里森（Larry Ellison）的家，他有时会去那里。他正在见一位朋友，演员安吉拉·巴塞特。他并没有享受三天的假期，而是变得精力充沛，开始发短信，其中包括喷火龙的短信。我认为他多次使用过这句话，表示帕拉格并不是那个将 Twitter 提升到新水平的人。然后，当他到达温哥华时，格莱姆斯在那里遇见了他，他们整晚都在玩《Elden Ring》。他正在做一场 TED 演讲。和然后在 5 点 30 分，他玩完《Elden Ring》并发出消息说我已提出要约。即使当他回来时，人们也试图介入并说，对不起，你为什么这样做？因此，从 4 月下旬到 10 月交易完成期间，这是一段艰难的时期。人们总是问我，他想退出这笔交易吗？我说，你在一天中的什么时间谈论哪个埃隆？因为有时早上他会说，哦，特拉华州法院将强迫我这样做。这太糟糕了。与他的律师交谈。你可以打赢这个官司。让我摆脱困境。他在奥斯汀会见了三四位投资银行家，其中包括 Centerview 的 Blair Efron 和 Pirella Weinberg 的 Bob Steele。他们为他提供了选择。你想出去吗？你想留下来吗？您想降低价格吗？我认为他是善变的。有时他会给我发短信或对我说，这会很棒。这将成为 x.com 按照我们 20 年前的想法发展的催化剂。因此，直到十月初他们最终告诉他，就在机器人擎天柱实际上在加利福尼亚州揭幕的时候，律师才说，你可能不会赢得这个案子，但最好完成交易。到那时他不仅已经接受了，而且有时还感到高兴。最终，交易将在周五早上完成。我书上有。周四我们在那里，他四处闲逛，看着他们都在使用的保持清醒的 T 恤和心理安全术语。他和他的律师和银行家制定了一项快速关闭的计划。原因是，如果他们在当天收盘后完成交易，他可以给帕拉格和另外两人发一封信，以有理由解雇他们的报价，这将是法院必须弄清楚的事情，那么他就可以省下两亿左右。这既是钱的问题，但对他来说是个问题，我不会说原则性的问题，但是，嘿，他们在数字上误导了我。我是被迫这么做的。所以我要尝试一下柔术，并能从他们身上赚到一些钱。然后当他接手时，场面有点疯狂。他试图在三轮不同的回合中决定如何将员工人数减少到原来的 15%。他在圣诞节前夕做出了决定，当时他参加了一次会议，他们告诉他我们无法摆脱萨克拉门托的服务器场，因为它需要冗余。他说，不，不是。他要飞往奥斯汀。年轻的詹姆斯说，我们为什么不自己做呢？他调转飞机，飞机降落在萨克拉门托，然后他亲自将飞机拉出。所以这是一个狂热的时期。

LEX：我们还应该说，在此之下，人们一直渴望或考虑创办一家新公司，从头开始建立一家社交媒体公司。

WALTER：嗯，金博尔想这么做。金博尔在奥斯汀一家很棒的餐厅里，午餐时说，嘿，你为什么要买 Twitter？让我们从头开始，在区块链上进行。现在他花了一段时间，你可以以某种方式争论，得出这样的结论：区块链不够快，响应时间不够，无法在一天左右处理十亿条推文。当他们一直试图让他与 Sam Bankman Fried 交谈时，他很生气，后者试图说，我会投资，但我们必须在区块链上进行。 Kimball 仍然赞成开始一个新的项目并基于区块链进行。现在回想起来，我认为创办一家新媒体公司会更好。他不会背负着他现在正在打破的包袱或遗产，打破了 Twitter 的原有模式。但很难拥有数以百万计、数亿的真正用户，而不仅仅是巨魔，并且像其他人发现的那样从头开始，就像马其顿和蓝天和线程一样，甚至没有任何线程有基础。所以这会很难。

LEX：是的。要像他那样做到这一点，需要你写另一部分，包括三个火枪手和整个工程、射击和引入工程师，以尝试成为硬核。因此，有很多有趣的问题要问，但从高层次来看，您能否评论一下传奇的那部分，即引入工程师，看看我们在这里能做什么？

沃尔特：对。他引进了工程师，并计算出特斯拉、全自动驾驶自动驾驶仪和所有软件的开发人员数量大约是 Twitter 软件开发人员的十分之一。他说，事情不可能如此。他在三轮不同的比赛中命中率高达 85%。第一个只是解雇人员，因为他们查看了代码，并且他们有一个来自特斯拉自动驾驶团队的团队对过去一年左右编写的所有代码进行了评级。然后他解雇了那些看起来并不完全投入或不忠诚的人。然后又一轮裁员。所以在每一步中，几乎每个人都说，这就够了。它会毁掉一些东西。从他的律师亚历克斯·斯皮罗（Alex Spiro）到贾里德·伯奇尔（Jared Burchill），他都说，哇，哇，哇。就连安德鲁和詹姆斯这对年轻的堂兄妹，他们的任务是列出一份名单，并找出谁是好人，谁是坏人，他们也说，我们已经做得够多了。我们将会遇到真正的麻烦。他们是部分正确的。我的意思是，服务有所下降，但没有我一半时间使用的服务的一半那么严重。我每天早上醒来，点击应用程序，好吧，仍然在那里。你觉得怎么样？

LEX：这太多了吗？

WALTER：我认为他有一个我们之前提到的算法，从质疑每个要求开始，但这取决于他的删除，删除，删除，删除所有部分。那么一个推论是，如果你最终没有添加回删除内容的 20%，那么你在第一轮中删除的内容就不够多，因为你太胆怯了。那你问我，他是不是做得太过分了？他可能超额完成了 20%，这是他的公式。他们现在可能正试图雇用人员来保持事情继续进行。

LEX：但这向被雇用回来的人或仍然留在那里的人发出了强烈的信号。

WALTER ：四月的想法。是的。史蒂夫·乔布斯和许多其他伟大领袖的感受，当然还有贝佐斯，当然还有微软早期的比尔·盖茨，这是硬核，只有 A 级玩家。

LEX：那么你认为 Elon 的成功有多大？ ？埃隆和史蒂夫·乔布斯的成功在于雇佣和管理优秀的团队。

沃尔特：当我有一次问史蒂夫·乔布斯时，你创造的最好的产品是什么？我想他会说也许是 Macintosh，也许是 iPhone。他说，不，那些产品很难。我创造过的最好的东西就是制造这些产品的团队。这就是创建团队的困难部分。他做到了，从约翰尼·艾维（Johnny Ive）到蒂姆·库克（Tim Cook）、埃迪·Q（Eddie Q）和菲尔·席勒（Phil Schiller）。埃隆在引进人才方面做得很好。格温·肖特韦尔（Gwen Shotwell），显然还有琳达·伊卡里诺（Linda Iaccarino），她可以渡过当前的危机。当然，像 Mark Jankos 这样的 SpaceX 明星人物也是如此。然后在特斯拉，像 Drew Bacalhino、Lars Marravey 和 Tom Zhu 等人。他不像本杰明·富兰克林所说的那样是一个团队合作者，顺便说一句，富兰克林是有史以来创建的最好的团队，即创始人。你必须有像杰斐逊和麦迪逊这样真正聪明的人，像约翰·亚当斯和他的表弟塞缪尔这样真正热情的人，以及像华盛顿这样正直的人。但你还需要一个本杰明·富兰克林，他可以将所有人聚集在一起，组建一个团队，并使他们相互妥协。马斯克就像一块磁铁，吸引着优秀的人才。

LEX：磁铁，有趣。但招聘的优先顺序是基于卓越、值得信赖和干劲。这些是您在整本书中描述的内容。我的意思是，招聘是基于一套非常具体和严格的想法。

WALTER：哦，是的。他有一种非常好的、狡猾的、直觉的感觉，只是看着那些可以的人，我的意思是，不是看着他们，而是研究他们谁可能是好人。他的运作方式之一就是所谓的越级会议。让我们以一个非常具体的东西为例，比如为星际飞船提供动力的猛禽发动机。但进展并不顺利。它看起来像意大利面条丛，而且很难制造。他还解雇了该团队的负责人。我记得他花了几个月的时间做他所谓的越级工作，这意味着他不会与猛禽团队的直接下属会面，而是会见比他们低一级的人。所以他会跳过一个级别并与他们会面。他说，就是这样，我只是问他们在做什么。我用问题来训练他们。他说，这就是我确定谁会出现的方法。他说特别困难。我参加那些会议是因为人们都戴着口罩。那是在新冠疫情最严重的时期。他说这对他来说有点困难，因为他必须获得意见。但我小时候看过，长发绺的名字叫雅各布·麦肯齐，他在书中，坐在那里，他有点像你。工程思维的表达方式有点单调。马斯克会问一个问题，然后给出一个答案，答案会非常直截了当，他不会感到不安。他就是这样的。马斯克说有一天凌晨 3 点给他打电话。好吧，我不会说凌晨 3 点，但是午夜过后，你还在吗？杰克说，是的，我还在工作。他说，好吧，我会让你负责猛禽队的团队建设。这真是一个很大的惊喜。但雅各布·麦肯齐 (Jacob McKenzie) 现在已经获得了 Raptor 的一个版本，当他们每周至少制造一个版本时，他们非常棒。这就是他的天赋所在，马斯克在寻找合适的人选并提拔他们方面的天赋。这就是它所在的地方。

LEX：并以一种就像这里是球，这里的方式推广它抓住。

WALTER：是的，是的。

LEX：然后你就带着它跑。我与很多来自 Model X 的人进行了互动，从始至终，这些人在纸面上看起来并不像他们应该的那样。能够运行这个东西，而且他们运行得非常成功。

WALTER：他做错了。有时他在太阳能屋顶部门的业绩记录很糟糕。布莱恩·道（Brian Dow）是一个很棒的人。我真的很喜欢他。当他们在内华达州进行电池工厂增产时，马斯克解雇了两三个人，其中就有布莱恩·道(Brian Dow)。可以做，可以做，可以做。他彻夜不眠，升职并负责管理公司。最后，马斯克通过了两三个人来管理太阳能屋顶部门。最后打电话给布莱恩·道。我坐在马斯克位于博卡奇卡的房子里，他拥有那间小小的两间卧室。他向布莱恩·道提供了管理太阳能屋顶的工作。你知道，布莱恩，好吧，可以，可以。马斯克曾两三次坚持要求他们在博卡奇卡的其中一栋房屋中安装太阳能屋顶。这是德克萨斯州南端的这个小村庄。我的意思是，在深夜，我必须用这些梯子爬到屋顶顶部，站在这个尖顶屋顶上，就像马斯克在那里说的那样，为什么我们需要四个螺丝来安装这条单腿？布莱恩只是大汗淋漓地做着一切。但几个月后，情况并不顺利，马斯克解雇了他。所以我总是努力学习，是什么让那些留下来的人茁壮成长？

LEX：那里有什么教训？你觉得怎么样？

WALTER：嗯，我认为这是像安迪·克雷布斯或其他人一样的自知之明。他们说，我是铁杆。我真的很想拥有一枚火箭前往火星，这比其他任何事情都重要。其中一个人，我认为是蒂姆·泽曼（Tim Zeman），我希望当他听到这个消息时，我会为他找到合适的人选，他花了时间。它正在为特斯拉自动驾驶仪工作，而且非常激烈。他请了一段时间假，然后去了另一家公司。他说，我在特斯拉已经筋疲力尽，但到了下一个地方我就感到无聊了。所以我打电话给特斯拉，我想是阿肖克说，我可以回来吗？他说，当然。他说，我了解了自己。我宁愿精疲力竭，也不愿感到无聊。

LEX：这是一句好话。您能否在卓越、可信和干劲方面停留在您感兴趣的三个方面之一？您认为哪一个是最重要且最难实现的？可信度是一件有趣的事情。你是骑还是死之类的东西？

WALTER：是的。我认为，特别是在接管推特时，他认为那里一半的人不忠诚，他错了。大约三分之二的人不忠诚，而不仅仅是一半。问题是我们如何清除这些？他做了一些事情，组建了行刑队，我称之为火枪手，我想这是我对他们的昵称，这是年轻的表兄弟和另外两三个人。他让他们查看这些人发布的 Slack 消息。 Twitter 上的每个人都发布了帖子，并且浏览了数百条 Slack 消息。如果有人在内部 Slack 上发帖，那个混蛋埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）将会接管，我担心他是个疯子什么的，他们会出现在名单上，因为他们想要全力忠诚。他们没有查看私人 Slack 消息，我想在公司 Slack 板上发帖的人应该知道你的公司可以查看它们。但这比我或大多数人会做的要多。这是为了找出谁是坚定的忠诚者。我认为 Twitter 的情况主要如此。他不会坐在 SpaceX 里说谁对我忠诚。在其他地方，这是卓越的，但这是理所当然的。每个人都像马克·扬科萨（Marc Jancosa）一样，只是聪明而已。这是你的铁杆和全力以赴，特别是如果你必须搬到德克萨斯州南端的一个名为博卡奇卡的小镇，你必须全力以赴。

LEX：是的。这就是驱动器，最后一块。就合作而言，你是有史以来最伟大的团队之一，本·富兰克林。我喜欢。我以为是披头士乐队，但本富兰克林相当不错。哦，不，不，不。对不起。

沃尔特：是的。很抱歉冒犯了你这么多。读宪法，读修道院路。看看艾比路。他们都很好，但他们处于不同的联盟。

LEX：是的，不同的联盟。本·富兰克林想到的众多事情之一就是令人难以置信的时间管理。关于本·富兰克林和史蒂夫·乔布斯，您有什么想说的吗？我认为埃隆有趣的是，正如你所写，他经营着六家公司，这取决于你如何令人震惊，因为这是他自己的事情，我不知道。在时间管理方面，你对这些人有什么看法？

WALTER：嗯，马斯克的行事方式独树一帜。首先，史蒂夫·乔布斯不得不经营皮克斯和苹果一段时间，但马斯克每隔几个小时就会改变他的思维方式，从如何植入神经连接芯片以及植入它的机器人会做什么大脑看起来像什么，我们能让它移动多快，然后猛禽上的隔热罩或切换到人类模仿、机器学习、完全自驱动。在推特董事会同意这项交易的当晚，这件事在全世界引起了巨大的轰动。我相信你还记得，就像马斯克收购 Twitter 一样。那不是交易结束的时候。就在那时，推特接受了他的提议。我想，好吧，但后来他去了德克萨斯州南部的博卡奇卡，如果我没记错的话，他花了时间修复猛禽发动机中存在甲烷泄漏问题的阀门，以及修复它的可能方法。我想，那个房间里的所有工程师都在想，这个人刚刚买了 Twitter，我们应该说点什么，然后他和 Kimball 一起去了布朗斯维尔的一家路边酒吧，只是坐在前面听音乐，没有人注意到他真的在那里。在某种程度上，他的优点之一和缺点之一是，在某一天，他会连续地、连续地关注许多不同的事情。他会担心将视频上传到 x.com 或支付系统，然后立即转向 FAA 授予 Starship 许可的问题，或者如何与 Starlink 和 CIA 打交道。当他专注于任何这些事情时，你无法分散他的注意力。他并不是也在考虑与 Starlink 打交道，但我也必须担心特斯拉对这款价值 25,000 美元的新车的决定。现在，他将在这些会议之间处理信息，然后发泄情绪。无论好坏，他都会通过在多面体中扮演朋友或发一些推文来发泄情绪，这通常不是一件健康的事情，但这对他来说是一种释放。我曾经说过他是一位出色的多任务处理者，但这是一个错误。人们纠正了我。他是一个连续任务执行者，这意味着在一个小时内集中精力完成一项任务，几乎在餐馆里给你提供味觉清洁剂，他们称之为什么。他用polytopia做了一些上颚清洁剂，然后专注于下一个任务。

LEX：你可以从中汲取一些关于时间管理的智慧吗？

WALTER：有些事情这些人这样做了，你说，好吧，我可以那样。我可以更好奇。我可以质疑每一条规则和规定。我只是认为任何人都不应该尝试效仿马斯克的时间管理风格，因为这需要一组特定的团队，他们知道如何处理除他所关注的事情之外的其他所有事情，并且需要有一定的思想可以改变，就像他的情绪一样可以转移。你和我都会经历转变，如果我在考虑我要在这个播客上说的话，我也会在考虑我女儿刚刚发送的关于她正在看的房子的电子邮件，而且我正在处理多项任务。他实际上并没有这样做。他按顺序执行单一任务，重点是核心。

LEX：我不知道。我认为从中可以汲取智慧。首先，他让我，本·富兰克林让我有这样的感觉，一天中有很多时间。一天中有很多分钟。没有理由不完成很多工作，而这只需要极度专注、极度专注和紧迫感。

WALTER：我认为驱使他的强烈紧迫感很重要，而且有时会让人兴奋。就像我说的，到达火星非常紧迫，周五晚上 10 点，在博卡奇卡的发射台上，只有几个人在工作，因为这是周五晚上。他们预计还要再过八个月才能发射。他下令增兵。他说，我希望明天之前有 200 人在这个垫子上工作。我们必须有强烈的紧迫感，否则我们永远无法到达火星。

LEX：这种紧迫感也是一种活力，就像真正充分地接受生活一样。我的意思是，对我来说，这就是教训，即使是平凡也可以充满这种丰富。就像你只需要真正认真地接受它一样。就像切换可以实现这种强度一样，因为我们大多数人都无法在任何一项任务中长时间保持这种强度。也许这也是一个教训。

WALTER： 是的。我想这可以追溯到了解你是谁，这意味着有些人可以高度集中注意力，有些人可以看到许多事物的模式。看，列奥纳多·达·芬奇，他并没有那么专注。他很容易分心。拖延。这就是为什么他的经典中未完成的画作多于已完成的画作。但他洞察自然规律的能力，以及在某些方面处理、拖延、分散注意力的能力，这对他有一些帮助，但马斯克不是这样的。每隔几个月就会出现一次新的激增，你不知道它会在哪里，但你会在太阳能屋顶上，突然我们就会出现一次激增，而且必须有，你知道，建造一百个太阳能屋顶，或者这必须在明天之前完成，或者在黎明之前建造一个星舰圆顶并涌动并完成。有些人就是这样建造的。这很鼓舞人心，但也让我们欣赏，你知道，有人可以真的很好，但也可以品味成功，品味当下，品味有时的安静。马斯克最大的失败是他无法享受当下或成功的滋味。这就是硬核强度的另一面。

LEX：在我喜欢的你的另一本书《创新者》中，你写的是个人和群体。因此，这本书要解决的一个问题是，扭转历史潮流的是个人还是群体？

沃尔特：当亨利·基辛格执行中东和平航天飞机任务时，这是我的第一本书。曾经写过。他说，当我在哈佛大学担任教授时，我认为历史是由伟大的力量和人群决定的。但当我近距离观察时，我发现一个人可以带来多大的改变。他在谈论萨达特，而果尔达·梅厄也可能在谈论他自己，或者至少在他看来是这样。我们传记作家有一个我们知道的肮脏秘密，我们通过让叙述过于由个人驱动来歪曲历史。但有时它是由个人驱动的。马斯克就是这样的例子。有时，就像我对创新者所做的那样，有一些团队和人员相互依赖，戈登·摩尔和鲍勃·诺伊斯，然后让安迪·格罗夫做微芯片，然后出来，沃兹尼亚克和乔布斯在一些电子商店找到它，然后他们决定打造苹果公司。所以有时会出现力量和人群的流动。我想我在关注史蒂夫·乔布斯、埃隆·马斯克和阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦能做什么方面犯了一些错误。我也试图弄清楚，如果没有他们，历史的力量和人民群体会在没有他们的情况下做到这一点吗？作为一个热爱历史的人，这是一个很好的历史问题。你会想到狭义相对论，这是 1905 年发表的论文之一。即使在他写下这本书之后，人们也花了四年的时间才真正理解他所说的，这不仅仅是你如何观察时间是相对的，时间本身也是相对的。根据他十年后所做的一般理论，我不确定我们是否会明白这一点。让我们进入 iPhone 时代怎么样？在这个时代，iPhone 是如此美丽，以至于你的口袋里没有一千首歌曲、口袋里的电子邮件、互联网和手机就无法生活？从松下到摩托罗拉，有很多脑死亡的人都没有明白这一点。可能已经有一段时间了。我当然认为电动汽车时代也是如此。吉姆和福特，都是那里的伟大人物，他们压碎了螺栓。我的意思是，从字面上看，他们最终粉碎了它们，因为他们决定停止它。同样，没有人发射火箭。 12 年前，我们的航天飞机即将停飞。所以马斯克做了一些事情，就会有人说，如果他们读了这本书，他们就会看到完整的故事。但他们说特斯拉不是马斯克创造的，而是马丁·阿巴·哈特或马克·塔彭宁创造的。不不不。有些人帮助创建了公司和其他事物的外壳，他们都值得被称为联合创始人。但真正让我们每年生产 100 万辆电动汽车的是埃隆·马斯克 (Elon Musk)。如果没有他，我不认为我们...看，如果五年后有人购买汽油动力的汽车，我们会认为这很古怪，很奇怪。我的意思是，突然我们就变了。我们不会这么做。其中 90% 是埃隆·马斯克。

LEX：我们都是凡人。您认为埃隆何时以及如何从他现在的疯狂高效的日程中退休？

沃尔特：我认为他不愿意退休。我认为如果没有压力、戏剧性和全部的感觉，他就无法生活。他似乎从来没有想到过任何事情。他从来没有说过，也许我喜欢拉里·埃里森在夏威夷海滩上的房子。也许我应该花时间去做。相反，他会说，我很早就知道假期会杀了你。当他去度假时，他得了疟疾。我的意思是，他有一次去度假，他们把他从 PayPal 驱逐了。然后他去了非洲一次，他得了疟疾。他说，我知道了，假期会害死你。吸取的教训。

LEX：嗯，这很有趣，因为这些项目是一百多年的项目。其中很多。

WALTER：奇怪的事情之一是看到他的思考非常长远。当我每周早些时候观看他的一次会议时，他就是火星殖民者。我们通过两个小时的会议讨论了火星上的治理结构是什么？人们会穿什么？机器人将如何工作？是否会有民主，或者是否应该有不同形式的治理？我坐在那里说，他们在做什么？他们在说什么？他们正在尝试建造火箭飞船和其他一切。他们担心火星的治理结构。同样，每当他处于紧张的时刻，比如火箭即将发射时，他就会开始向人们询问未来的事情，比如新的主发动机之类的。如果我们要建造它，我们有准备好足够的材料来订购，或者我不知道，他只会问一些问题，比如他何时建造机器人出租车、全球汽车、价值 25,000 美元的廉价全球汽车。这并不是完全的热情。他被说服这样做。他的热情是机器人出租车，但他的热情是我们如何让这家工厂每年生产 100 万辆汽车？所以即使是机器人出租车也是一个更远距离的视野。我的意思是，他自 2016 年以来一直在宣传它，但我们没有。没有机器人出租车。我的意思是，Waymo 可能正在做一个小实验，但没有制造出没有方向盘的汽车来占领高速公路。是的。所以他总是展望未来，这就是我的观点。

LEX：我只是希望有很多达芬奇、史蒂夫·乔布斯、爱因斯坦和埃隆·马斯克的人能够将火焰继续前进。

沃尔特：这就是你写关于这些人的书的原因之一，如果你是一名年轻女性，在一所学校里，没有人告诉你去做科学，而你读了关于詹妮弗·杜德娜的密码破译书，你会说，好吧，我可以成为那样的人。当你说，哦，也许我会成为一个监管者，或者你说，哦，不，也许我会成为一个突破界限、突破界限、推动人类的人，就像史蒂夫·乔布斯所说的那样。

LEX：好吧，让我问一下你的想法、你的天才和你的过程。我会给你三分之二。好的。请带我回顾一下您撰写传记的过程。我的意思是，充满了它。不仅仅是写传记，而是深入理解你的书为人类故事所做的事情，以及人类故事背后的更大思想。所以你写了两个人的传记，而他们几乎不是个人。这是一幅非常庞大、复杂的图画。以及涉及个人的思想传记。

WALTER：嗯，对我来说第一步是试图弄清楚思维是如何运作的。是什么导致爱因斯坦在埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）看到碳纤维火箭时说不锈钢？或者说你如何实现精神上的飞跃？因为我写的是聪明人，但聪明人比比皆是。它们通常并不多。正如乔布斯所说，你必须具有创造力和想象力，才能与众不同。那么是什么让人们具有创造力呢？是什么让他们实现了富有想象力的飞跃？这是你要问的关键问题。你还问了一些像你之前问过的问题，那就是恶魔在他们的脑海中嗡嗡作响的问题，以及他们如何将它们转化为驱动器？所以你观察这一切，并尝试非常仔细地观察这个人。我做的一件比较平凡的事情是很多作家试图给你很多他们的观点和说教之类的。正如我所说，这位导师说有两种类型的人出来，传教士和讲故事的人。做一个讲故事的人。每当我试图表达一个想法时，我都会尝试，有六个神奇的词我几乎应该写在一张钉在我桌子上方的卡片上，那就是让我告诉你一个故事。因此，如果有人问埃隆·马斯克如何像你一样发现优秀人才，我想，好吧，让我告诉你这个故事。我会告诉你杰克·麦肯齐的故事。或者这不是我发明的。这就是圣经中仁慈的主所做的事。我的意思是，它有有史以来最好的开头句子，你知道，一开始是逗号，然后是故事。其次，要抓住开头的主句，使其按时间顺序排列。每个人在人生的第40年，都从39岁、38岁开始成长。所以你想展示人们如何进化和成长。我对非小说类叙事的态度是最出色的，西蒙·舒斯特的爱丽丝·梅休（Alice Mayhew），除其他外，她创造了伍德沃德和伯恩斯坦等所有总统的人选。但她在我书的页边空白处贴了一张纸条，这对我来说很重要，这意味着一切都及时了。保持时间顺序。如果它对圣经来说足够好，那么对你来说也足够好。

LEX：有趣。对我来说，这只是一个小注释，但对你来说，它非常重要。

WALTER：因为它是你如何构建事物的框架，也是你如何理解事物的框架，也就是说，如果你按时间顺序排列的话叙述，然后你展示一个人如何从你谈论的一次经历成长到下一次经历。道德成长、创造力成长、冒险成长、智慧，这就是创造力的本质。但你做不到。有一个术语，Bildungsroman，这是一本带有叙述性内容并讲述人们如何学习某些东西的书。我非常相信叙事。如果你是一名学者，有时不是今天，而是大约 20 年前、30 年前，有两件事你认为不好。其中之一是你有一个伟大的历史理论，你决定在其中写传记。我在大学时有一位很棒的教授。她的名字叫多丽丝·卡恩斯。她后来嫁给了迪克·古德温。当她申请大学终身教职时，她写了一本关于林登·约翰逊和美国梦的传记。他们拒绝了她的任期，因为这不符合法律规定学院的尊严是通过一个人来书写历史。那太棒了。它为我们非学术界人士打开了传记领域的大门，从大卫·麦卡洛、鲍勃·卡罗开始，但也许约翰·米查姆和我自己属于新一代。当然，我们之后还有一代人。但除了通过人来讲述之外，第二件事是学院倾向于鄙视他们所说的强加叙述和讲故事。因为这意味着你要遗漏一些东西并将其变成一个叙述。嗯，这就是我们形成世界观的方式。

LEX：好吧，让我从收集理解的角度问你这个问题。其中有多少是观察，有多少是采访？

WALTER：是的。嗯，显然取决于主题。我的意思是，对于本·富兰克林来说，这一切都是基于档案，当然，我们有 40 卷信件。他写道，那是一段美好的时光，每天你都会写20封信。这本必读之书比我的任何一本书都更多地基于观察，因为他以一种令我惊叹的方式展开。是的。即使他茫然地坐着，或者对别人怒火中烧，你知道，他也让我坐在那里看着。我的意思是，我花了很多时间陪在詹妮弗身边。我去了她的实验室，用移液器和试管编辑了人类基因。但我想说我和她一起度过了30个小时。我无法计算，你知道，仅仅观察清真寺就需要一百个小时或更长时间。我不确定任何传记作者，也许自从博斯韦尔接任约翰逊博士以来，是否曾经有过如此近距离的接触，这意味着随时都可以在五英尺之外进行接触。因此，我将回到刚才所说的内容。我试图摆脱故事的束缚。这与我无关。这不是，我只是想说，好吧，这就是发生的事情。这是这个故事。事情是这样的。然后那天晚上他第一次进入 Twitter，让你形成自己的判断。

LEX：采访怎么样？你们已经进行了很多对话。您对接受过采访的人表示感谢。好吧，作为一名有抱负的面试官，我必须问自己，如何？

WALTER：人们喜欢说话。人们只是爱，你知道的。我有 140 人，也许 150 人，他们都列在后面。人们不会注意到的一件小事，但我现在要说的是，所有这些都被记录在案。让他们说话很容易。他们都想谈论清真寺。但到了某个时候，我不会在我的书中引用匿名的话。我引用一些东西。我说，如果你足够坚强并且经历过这一切，很多时候需要两三个电话回电。有人会告诉我，哦不，不，不，我不想。但我认为了解一切从何而来很重要。对于清真寺，我从一开始就有这个想法，因为我是《时代》杂志的记者。我曾是《泰晤士报-皮卡尤恩报》驻新奥尔良的记者。上班第一天，我必须去报道一起谋杀案。我用公用电话给我的报道打电话，城市编辑说，好吧，你和家人谈过了吗？我去了，不，比利。我的意思是，家人，女儿刚到，他说，去敲门。我敲了敲门。一个小时过去了，他们还在说话。他们正在拿出她的年鉴。我学到的第一课是，如果你愿意倾听，人们就会愿意交谈。无论是亨利·基辛格，你只要按下按钮并说基辛格，人们就会给你讲故事。从埃隆·马斯克开始，每个人都在谈论。他家里的每个人，他解雇的每个人，每个人。我的意思是，我认为倾听人们的意见很重要。作为一名记者，我学到的另一件事是，当我报道新罕布什尔州的政治和早期竞选活动时，我从两三个伟大的记者那里学到了东西，其中一个叫大卫·布罗德，另一个是已故 NBC 记者蒂姆·鲁瑟特。他们进行所谓的敲门活动。你只需走在一个街区，敲门并向人们询问有关选举的情况。但他们说，这就是秘密。不要问任何引导性问题。没有任何前提。只是说，嘿，我正在努力弄清楚这次选举。这是怎么回事？你怎么认为？然后保持沉默。对于马斯克来说，第三个秘密，你很清楚这一点。他有时会沉默。有时一分钟，两分钟，四分钟。不要试图填补沉默。如果你是一个倾听者，你必须知道，好吧，他有四分钟没有说话。我可以比他活得更久。

LEX：这很难。作为人类，这是非常艰难的。尊重沉默真的非常非常困难。说到恶魔，当一片寂静的时候，所有的恶魔都会出现在我的脑海里。我想，担心的是如果我什么都不说，那就很无聊。如果我说了什么，那就会很愚蠢。这就是持续运转的基本引擎。不仅在播客上，在播客上，也在人际互动中。所以我认为与人互动时会有紧张的能量。

WALTER：你永远不能走如果你无话可说，保持沉默是错误的。这不是我已经掌握的东西，但当我是一名记者时，我确实尝试掌握这一点，那就是不要问复杂的问题。别插话。当有人没有完全回答问题时，不要说，好吧，让我，你知道，保持沉默，然后他们就会继续说话。

LEX：只要给他们一个机会说。即使他们已经完成了，仍然。

WALTER：有时他们没有给你足够的东西。我不会跟进，只会点头并离开。

LEX：你说得听起来很简单。让人们敞开心扉有什么秘诀吗？

WALTER：我有点幸运，因为，你知道，我开始为一家日报工作，当时的人们想与报纸交谈记者

LEX：但你也有自己的一套。就像，我觉得你就像酒吧里的牛仔。就像你只是想说话一样。好像有平局一样。我不知道。我不知道那是什么。也许是这样，我不知道是不是开发人员，你生来就有这个能力，但是有一个，感觉就像我想告诉你一个某种故事。

WALTER：好，告诉我一个故事。有几件事。我确实学会了更加安静。我确信我年轻的时候就知道，甚至我会在新闻中看到我的视频，我总是试图插入一个问题。所以有时你会学会变得更安静。我还没有掌握它。我还没有学够。你学会自然而然地好奇。今天的许多记者，当他们提出问题，或者试图玩陷阱，或者试图获得新闻独家新闻，或者试图做一些可以取得领先的事情时。如果您确实很好奇并且确实想知道问题的答案，那么人们可以看出您问这个问题是因为您想要答案，而不是因为您正在与他们玩游戏。

LEX ：我确信其中一些是不公开的，一些是公开的，你们可能进行过一些令人难以置信的对话。我本来想说一些有史以来最伟大的对话，但谁知道呢？有史以来最好的一些对话可能是在南美洲的某个地方，两个醉酒的人之间我们永远听不到的。所以我不知道，我不知道。但是，有没有一种方法可以将您所学到的知识传授给像我这样的人，以及如何进行良好的对话，尤其是录音后？

WALTER：嗯，实际上是好奇。我的意思是，你问我的每一个问题都是因为我认为你实际上想知道答案，并且你已经做好了开放的功课，而不是有议程。我的意思是，我们都因当今世界的议程太多而苦恼。

LEX：是的。所以这只是真正的好奇心，但是，嗯，当你谈论一对一的互动时，无论是埃隆还是史蒂夫·乔布斯，或者那个人的思想中有一些美丽的东西，都会有一些东西。感觉有可能揭示这一点，并有效地共同发现这一点。这就是对话的目标。

WALTER：嗯，我的意思是，看，您是当今世界上顶级的播客和采访者之一。你对你有一种认真的态度。嗯，我的意思是，本·富兰克林是通过读他最多的谈话内容来教我的人。他就此写了一篇精彩的文章。它包括沉默。呃，但这包括尝试提出真诚的问题，而不是表达观点。我的意思是，这有点苏格拉底式的，但每当他想知道时，我就想在费城启动消防员的核心。他会去他称之为皮围裙俱乐部的小组，他们会提出问题。为什么我们没有呢？需要什么？什么会好呢？第二部分是确保你倾听。如果某人只有一个想法的萌芽，请给予他们信任。就像乔说的那样，你知道，真正的问题是这个，我确实认为，如果我处于某种情况，我只是指一顿晚餐或其他什么，我和某人在一起，我通常很好奇，我会，你知道，谈话将带着问题继续进行。我想这也是因为我对任何人所做的事情都很感兴趣，无论我碰巧和谁在一起。这就是你所拥有的天赋，那就是你对自己的兴趣非常真诚。有些人像本杰明·富兰克林，就像查理·罗斯，尽管他不受欢迎，但他们对大量的主题感兴趣。我认为这也有助于对篮球、歌剧、物理和形而上学感兴趣。呃，那是本·富兰克林，那是莱昂纳多的把戏，他们想知道你可能知道的关于每个已知主题的一切。

LEX：但这还有一个不同的方面，那就是，嗯，我很想听听你是如何解决这个问题的，或者如果你遇到过这个问题，你肯定会解除武装。呃，看，我就像，呃，在这里对你大加赞美，试图让你得到你的支持。

WALTER：这是一种非常解除武装的方法。是的。我最近与本杰明和雅虎进行了交谈。我们会，我们会谈谈再次。不幸的是，由于日程安排和复杂性，我们只有一个小时，这非常困难，对于有魅力的政治家来说非常困难。

LEX：我理解这一点，但他也是一个有魅力的谈话者，这很难打破一小时内通过。嗯，但是有人建造了围墙，无论是因为恶魔还是因为，呃，他们的政客。所以他们有议程和叙述等等。因此，为了突破这些，嗯，我想知道是否有一些建议，一些你学到的智慧，关于如何，呃，通过水或其他什么方式磨损，或任何方法，我们建造的墙壁

WALTER：我的意思是，你称之为解除武装，我不知道我是这样，但解除武装基本上意味着你也拆除了他们的盾牌。你知道，当人们有盾牌并且你试图给他们安慰时，我对埃隆·马斯克的这个问题为零。我的意思是，这对我来说就像解除武装，我一直在等着说，好吧，他不会这么做，他有，他有壳，否则他不会那样做。但他，呃，几乎疯狂地开放，似乎不想，呃，想要编造、隐藏或伪造事情。嗯，我很幸运。杜德娜就是这样。史蒂夫·乔布斯就是这样，你也必须投入时间。换句话说，嗯，你不能说，好吧，有一个小时的采访，我要打破每堵墙。就像您第五次访问一样。

LEX：在我的情况中，您了解到第五次访问非常好，但有时您不会获得第五次访问。有时这只是第一次约会。而且，嗯，我认为这可以归结为，我们说过解除武装，但是这个人身上有一些你信任的东西。我认为这很大程度上可以归结为对人类某种深层的信任。我认为，呃，与，呃，与我交谈过的许多人，有时信任是在面试后发生的，这真的很悲伤，因为这就像，哦，伙计，我从来没有参与过你的工作。我有演出的情况。

WALTER：我通常有。其次，我不是第一次约会的人。是的。是的。是的。嗯，你知道，但我很幸运。我的意思是，我在，我说幸运，但我在印刷品中，你知道，印刷品是一种有几千年历史的媒介，但我们当中有人喜欢它。

LEX：嗯，播客媒体的本质是我是一个一夜情的女孩。呃，我想问一下你关于客观性的问题。你追随埃隆，也追随史蒂夫。就像你一样，我的意思是，我什至不知道你是否会说你的朋友，你必须小心这样的词，但你，有一种亲密感。嗯，你如何保持客观？您想在讲述一个深刻的人性故事时保持客观吗？

WALTER：是的。我的意思是，我想要诚实，我认为这类似于客观。呃，我试着记住我是谁，我在为谁写作？我不是为埃隆·马斯克写作。正如我所说，我还没有把书寄给他。我不知道他是否读过，我想他还没读过。嗯，我正在为思想开放的读者写一篇文章。如果我可以写一个故事并说，好吧，这会激怒主题，或者确实会让主题高兴。那是无关紧要的。或者我试着把它作为一个次要的考虑因素。因为我把这个故事写进了书里，这样读者会更明白。

LEX：我是一个有点浪漫的人。所以对我来说，即使是你的爱因斯坦书也有关于浪漫和人际关系的课程。哦亲爱的。那么，浪漫关系对于伟人、伟人、伟人的成功有多重要？

WALTER：有时候，影响人类进程的人与人类的关系比与周围人类的关系更好。他们。爱因斯坦与妻子有两种有趣的关系。你知道，他的第一任妻子马列娃（Maleva）是一个参谋，特别是在狭义相对论论文的数学方面提供了帮助。嗯，但是他对她不好。我的意思是，他，呃，让她签了一封信，保证她不会打扰他。她不会，你知道，最后当她想离婚时，他却无力承担，因为他还是一名专利职员。所以，呃，他向她提出了一项协议，我认为这真是太棒了。他说，有一天，1905 年的一篇论文将获得诺贝尔奖。如果我们离婚，呃，你知道，我会给你钱。嗯，当时那是很多钱，比如现在一百万美元什么的。而且她很聪明。她是一位科学家。她咨询了其他几位科学家。大约一周后，她接受了赌注。直到 1919 年他才获得诺贝尔奖吗？呃，她得到了所有的钱。她在苏黎世购买了三栋公寓楼。呃，和他的第二任妻子艾尔莎，这更像是一种方便的伙伴关系。这不是浪漫的爱情，但他知道，有时人们在生活中需要的只是一个伴侣。我的意思是，有人会处理你不会处理的事情。所以我想如果你看我的书，它们并不是很好的鼓舞人心的指南个人关系。

LEX：让我问你一下写作本身的实际过程。当你观察、倾听、收集所有信息时，呃，甚至可能只是一个愚蠢的世俗问题，呃，在开始写作之前你早餐吃什么？

WALTER：你什么时候写信？首先，早餐不是我最喜欢的一餐。对于那些告诉你必须从一顿丰盛的早餐开始的人，我表示怀疑。是的。呃，早上不是我最喜欢的一天。所以我在晚上写作，因为我喜欢叙事，所以很容易构建一本书，也就是说我可以制定一个大纲，如果我打印出来或做笔记将有一百页，但一切都井井有条。换句话说，如果我们服务，如果有一个着火的人，他从格莱姆斯回来，然后有一个太阳能屋顶的东西，然后还有一些东西，我把它作为一个大纲日复一日地整理起来。当我开始写作时，这约束了我，遵循我的第一位编辑爱丽丝·梅休（Alice Mayhew）的口头禅，那就是一切都恰逢其时。不要超前于故事。不必闪退。嗯，然后在你得到它之后，所有的事情都按时间顺序排列，你知道，然后你必须做一些聚类。你知道，你必须说，好吧，我们将做出制作星际飞船或在德克萨斯州建工厂或其他任何事情的决定。有时你会遇到组织问题，是的，这让我们一路走到了这里。我应该把它保留在这一章、那一章中，还是等到以后按时间顺序排列比较好时？但这些都很简单。

LEX：嗯，讲故事的实际过程怎么样？

WALTER：嗯，这就是我之前提到的口头禅，每当我暂停或我我不知道该怎么说，我只是说，让我给你讲个故事。然后我找到真正的轶事、故事、包含我想要传达的内容的故事。然后我不会说出我想传达的信息。我没有一个过渡句说，你知道，埃隆有时会改变主意，所以他不记得他是否改变了主意，或者，你知道，你没有，你不需要过渡句。你只要说，好吧，这就是我接下来要说的观点。所以你从一句话开始，你知道，一月份在德克萨斯州工厂的一天，逗号。

LEX：嗯，我想问你的一件事是寻求建议因为，对我来说，对于年轻人来说，第一个建议是阅读传记，因为它们可以帮助您了解可以过上美好生活的所有不同方式。但是，通过撰写传记，研究了如此多的伟人，您可以为人们如何度过这一生提供什么建议？

沃尔特：嗯，我一直在回顾经典和柏拉图以及亚里士多德和苏格拉底。我猜这是柏拉图的格言，但他可能引用了苏格拉底的话，未经审视的生活不值得过。这又回到了认识你自己，也就是说你不必弄清楚这一切的重要意义是什么，但你必须弄清楚为什么你要做你正在做的事情。这需要我年轻时没有足够的东西，那就是自我意识和检查每一个动机，我所做的一切。

LEX：检查将你引向何方？是为了、为了、为了人生轨迹的转变吗？

WALTER：我的意思是，这不适合我，好吧，我现在决定成为一名记者，我会跑步一个智囊团，或者我会运行一个网络，或者我会写一篇简历。它实际上是按小时计算更有用的东西。比如，为什么我要对某人说这些，或者为什么我要做这个特定的行为？我来这里的真正动机是什么？从更广泛的意义上来说，就像我在 CNN 工作几年后所做的那样，我对自己生活的审视是，我不擅长管理复杂的组织。如果有选择的话，我作为一名经理并不出色。我宁愿别人来管理我，也不愿我来管理别人。但我花了一段时间才弄清楚这一点。当我年轻时和在《时代》杂志工作时，我可能过于雄心勃勃。那是我还年轻的时候，哦，好吧，那是我处于绿色和判断力的沙拉时代。这就像在时代公司追逐下一个层次，无论它是什么。然后有一天，我获得了铜环，成为一名编辑，然后是顶级编辑。过了一段时间，我意识到这并不完全是我适合做的事情，尤其是当我被任命负责 CNN 时。我的意思是，几乎所有的年轻人都处于绿色和判断力的沙拉时代。但你会知道是什么在激励你。然后你学会问，但这真的是我想要的吗？我应该小心我的愿望吗？

LEX：你可以做的重大检查之一就是你和每个人有一天都会死去这一事实。艾萨克森，你改变了多少？想想死亡。你害怕吗？

WALTER：不，我也没有想太多。但我确实认为关于史蒂夫·乔布斯的故事，让我给你讲一个故事，这是史蒂夫·乔布斯的精彩故事，我想是在他被确诊之后，但在公开之前。他在斯坦福大学做了一次演讲，也做了其他一些演讲，他在演讲中说，我们终将死去这一事实让你集中注意力，让你变得有意义。如果你想活下去，埃隆·马斯克对我说过这句话，硅谷的很多科技兄弟都在寻找永生的方法。马斯克说，我认为没有什么比这更糟糕的了。我们读过西西弗斯的神话，我们知道被判永生是多么糟糕。所以有一个古希腊，有人走在国王身后说，“memento mori”，记住你会死。它让人们不至于失去一点。您考虑过遗产吗？作为一名传记作家，幸运的是你知道自己的遗产是什么。会有一个架子，里面会有有趣的人，你会激励一个 17 岁的生物学学生成为下一个伟大的生物化学家，或者像埃隆·马斯克一样创办一家公司。我想更多的是，我不会说回馈，那是一件很老套的事情。我搬回新奥尔良是有原因的。首先，飓风袭来。卡特里娜飓风过后，我被任命为恢复机构的副主席。我意识到我所拥有的一切，这一切都来自这座陷入困境的城市的美丽宝石。我上过很棒的高中，在很棒的街道上我学会了骑自行车，这充满了挑战。我永远不会在全球层面上解决挑战，但我可以回家并说我的遗产的一部分将是，我试图将其回报给我的家乡，即使是通过在杜兰大学教书，我不这样做不要帮忙。我很享受其中，但这就像，好吧，我是社区的一部分。我认为我们在美国失去了这一点，因为孤独的人之所以孤独，是因为他们不属于社区。但我所有的高中生、朋友们都还在新奥尔良。我有我的家人，但我也有杜兰大学，新奥尔良的机构永远在那里。如果我能参与帮助新奥尔良的学校系统，帮助青年赋权计划，帮助杜兰大学的创新中心，我什至是城市规划委员会的成员，该委员会担心短期租赁的分区条例，你知道，去算一下。但这就像，不，让自己沉浸在我的社区中，因为我的社区非常擅长让我成为我自己，并且年复一年、飓风接飓风地遇到麻烦，确保每一代新一代都能发挥创造力。这是一座从爵士乐到美食再到建筑都充满创造力的城市。所以当我想到时，我不会说遗产，但我该怎么做才能将其传承下去？这是遗产的一种较低层次的表达方式。我通过回到我开始的地方并尝试第一次了解它来将其传递下去。这是对 TS 艾略特台词的抄袭。我不想让你认为我想到了那个。

LEX：总是引用你的来源，我很感激。

WALTER：TS Eliot，如果你需要弄清楚的话，四个四重奏，最后的那部分，我们不会停止探索。而我们所有探索的终点将是回到我们开始的地方，并通过未知但记不清的大门第一次了解它。这真是太漂亮了。这也是你创作的灵感来源，我想如果这是一部莎士比亚戏剧，你会称之为第五幕。好吧，你回到你来的地方，不会坐在那里担心遗产，但你会坐在那里说，我如何确保其他人能够拥有从新奥尔良开始的神奇轨迹？

LEX：嗯，对我来说，你是有史以来最伟大的讲故事的人之一。我一直是个超级粉丝。

WALTER：绝对不是真的，但你太贴心了。

LEX：看，你可以 - 残酷地打断。我想可能是本·富兰克林，所以我不知道爱因斯坦多少年了，15 年了，一直到今天，我一直是你的超级粉丝。我认为你是那些肯定不会放低姿态出现并与我交谈的人之一。这对我来说是一份巨大的礼物。

WALTER：嘿，我为此飞到奥斯汀，因为我是一个超级粉丝，尤其是一个超级粉丝，因为你认真对待别人并且关心别人。

LEX：谢谢你一千次。感谢您尊重我并用您的故事激励数百万人。再说一次，这是一个令人难以置信的故事讲述，令人难以置信的人类。感谢您今天的发言。

WALTER：谢谢您，Alex。

LEX：感谢您收听与 Walter Isaacson 的对话以支持此播客。请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。现在让我向你们介绍我最喜欢的卡尔·荣格的名言之一。人们会做任何事情，无论多么荒谬，都是为了逃避面对自己的灵魂。一不成通过想象光的形象而受到启发，但通过使黑暗变得有意识。感谢您的收听，希望下次再见。

Chinese (Simplified) transcription subtitles:

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我希望用我的书来说

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这不是操作指南，

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但这是一个你可以并肩同行的人。

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你可以看到

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爱因斯坦在德国长大，是犹太人。

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你可以看到詹妮弗·杜德娜的成长过程

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作为局外人或莱昂纳多·达·芬奇或埃隆·马斯克在真正暴力的南非

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与一个

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心理困难的父亲。

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当他去反种族隔离时下火车

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和他哥哥的音乐会

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一个男人头上插着一把刀，他们走了过来

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进入血泊，粘在他们的灵魂上。

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这导致

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伤疤

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这会持续你的余生。

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问题不是

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如何避免留下疤痕？

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这是你如何处理的？

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以下是与沃尔特·艾萨克森的对话，

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有史以来最伟大的传记作家之一。

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写过关于阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦的令人难以置信的书籍，

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史蒂夫·乔布斯，

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列奥纳多·达·芬奇，

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詹妮弗·杜德娜、本杰明·富兰克林、

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亨利·基辛格，

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现在是埃隆·马斯克的新话题。

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我们隔着麦克风聊了好几个小时。

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我相信我们还会聊很多次。

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沃尔特是一位真正特别的作家、思想家、观察家，

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和人类。

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我强烈建议人们阅读他关于埃隆的新书。

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我确信短期内会有争议

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但

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从长远来看，我认为这将激励数以百万计的年轻人，

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尤其是经历过困难的童年，

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周围的环境或自己的内心充满困难，

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去解决最困难的问题

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世界并为这些问题制定解决方案，

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00:01:47,900 --> 00:01:49,560
无论可能性有多么不可能。

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在这次谈话中，

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00:01:52,260 --> 00:01:56,740
沃尔特和我翻唱了他所有的书，并利用其中的个人故事

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00:01:56,740 --> 00:02:00,640
谈论追求科学伟大的更大原则，

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在科技领域，

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工程、艺术、

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00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:03,580
政治，

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00:02:04,140 --> 00:02:04,460
和生活。

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00:02:05,700 --> 00:02:09,520
埃隆的新书中有很多东西我觉得最好保存下来

48
00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,180
因为当我在这个播客上再次直接与埃隆交谈时，

49
00:02:13,860 --> 00:02:15,000
很快就可以了。

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00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:20,680
也许在这里提一下我和埃隆的友谊也不错，

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00:02:21,580 --> 00:02:28,760
金钱、出入、名誉、权力等任何其他影响都不会导致我牺牲我的正直，

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曾经。

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00:02:30,660 --> 00:02:32,660
我确实喜欢庆祝人们的善良

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00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,140
去体会和理解，

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00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,860
但我也喜欢斥责人们的胡言乱语

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带着尊重和同情心。

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如果我失败了，

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由于缺乏技巧而失败

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并非缺乏诚信。

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我会努力进步的。

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这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。

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为了支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

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现在，亲爱的朋友们，

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请听沃尔特·艾萨克森的报道。

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艰难的童年在伟人、伟人的生活中扮演什么角色？

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00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:06,560
这是一个要求吗？

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这是一个催化剂还是只是一个简单的命运巧合？

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00:03:11,100 --> 00:03:12,540
嗯，这不是一个要求。

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有些童年快乐但过得很好的人，

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但确实有很多真正有动力的人之所以有动力，是因为他们正在利用

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他们童年的恶魔。

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就连巴拉克·奥巴马在回忆录中的一句话，

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也就是说，我认为每个成功的男人要么努力实现他父亲的期望

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00:03:34,540 --> 00:03:36,220
或者背负着他父亲的罪过。

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对于埃隆来说，尤其如此，因为他

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既是一个暴力而艰难的童年，也是一个心理问题严重的父亲。

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他脑子里有那些恶魔在跳舞

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并通过利用它们，

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它是

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部分原因

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他做的事更冒险、更冒险，

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怀尔德

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00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,620
比我可能做过的事情。

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我写过埃隆谈到他的父亲

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00:04:06,060 --> 00:04:09,580
有时感觉像是精神折磨，

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童年时期与他的互动。

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00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:13,960
你能描述一些

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00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:15,760
你学到了什么？

89
00:04:16,260 --> 00:04:19,760
是的，埃隆和金博尔会告诉我，

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例如，

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当埃隆在操场上被欺负时

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00:04:25,340 --> 00:04:29,240
有一天，他被推下水泥台阶，脸被打了一拳

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00:04:29,340 --> 00:04:30,860
太糟糕了，金博尔说，

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00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:32,660
我实在认不出他了。

95
00:04:32,660 --> 00:04:33,500
我是说，他在医院

96
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将近一周了。

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00:04:34,740 --> 00:04:36,400
但当他回到家后，

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埃隆必须站在他父亲和他的儿子面前

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00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:42,840
父亲斥责了他一个多小时

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并说他很愚蠢并站在了一边

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殴打过他的人。

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00:04:48,540 --> 00:04:51,360
这可能是埃隆一生中最痛苦的事件之一。

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00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:51,960
是的。

104
00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:53,900
还有草原学校，

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00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,520
这是年轻的南方人的一种准军事营地

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00:04:57,540 --> 00:04:59,060
非洲男孩被送到。

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在某一时刻，

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00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:02,060
他骨瘦如柴。

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00:05:02,340 --> 00:05:06,280
他不善于捕捉社交线索

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和情感暗示。

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00:05:07,380 --> 00:05:10,340
他谈到自己患有阿斯伯格症。

112
00:05:10,340 --> 00:05:13,480
所以他在这样的营地里受到了创伤。

113
00:05:13,980 --> 00:05:15,220
但第二次去的时候，

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他变得更大了。

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00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,520
他已经升到了将近六英尺，他学会了

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00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:19,460
一点柔道。

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00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,580
他意识到如果他被殴打，

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这可能会伤害他，

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00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,320
但他只会用尽全力打那人的鼻子。

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以便

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总是有反击的感觉

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00:05:31,020 --> 00:05:33,280
也已经在埃隆身上根深蒂固。

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00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,340
我花了很多时间和埃罗尔·马斯克交谈，

124
00:05:36,580 --> 00:05:36,920
他的父亲。

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埃隆不再和他的父亲埃罗尔·马斯克说话了

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金博尔也没有。

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00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:42,360
已经好几年了。

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埃罗尔甚至没有埃隆的电子邮件。

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所以很多时候，

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埃罗尔将给我发送电子邮件。

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埃罗尔有其中之一

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杰基尔和海德的性格。

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他是

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伟大的工程思想，尤其是材料科学。

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我知道如何使用云母在南非建造一个荒野营地，以及它如何不传导热量。

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00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,200
但他也会进入这些黑暗时期

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他只会受到心理虐待。

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而且当然，

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梅·马斯克对我说，

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他的母亲很早就与埃罗尔离婚了，他说：

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埃隆面临的危险是他会成为他的父亲。

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你时不时地和他在一起

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00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:33,580
非常多，莱克斯，你很了解他。

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他甚至会和你谈论恶魔，

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关于迪亚波罗跳舞

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他的头。

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我的意思是，他明白了，他有自我意识，

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但你可能曾在某些地方见过他

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那些恶魔接管了他，他变得非常黑暗并且非常安静。

150
00:06:51,860 --> 00:06:52,540
还有格莱姆斯

151
00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,280
说，我可以告诉

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当恶魔模式即将发生时，请提前一两分钟。

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他会变得有点黑暗。

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我当时在这里

155
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:03,460
奥斯汀有一次和一群人共进晚餐。

156
00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,400
你可以看出突然有什么东西触发了他

157
00:07:08,020 --> 00:07:09,280
他就要黑了。

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00:07:09,500 --> 00:07:12,440
我在会议上看过，有人会说，

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我们无法完成那部分

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00:07:13,900 --> 00:07:17,480
低于 200 美元或没有，这是错误的。

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他会斥责他们。

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然后他就振作起来。

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00:07:21,580 --> 00:07:27,700
正如你也知道的那样，他突然在手机上向你展示了 Monty Python 的短剧，然后突然出现了一个巨大的瞬间。

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00:07:27,700 --> 00:07:29,060
他在开玩笑。

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所以我觉得走出童年，

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有很多方面，

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甚至可能有很多个性，工程模式，

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愚蠢模式、魅力模式、幻想模式，

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还有黑暗模式下的恶魔。

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你引用的关于埃隆的一句话对我来说真的很突出。

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忘记是谁发的了

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但在男人的内心深处，

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他还是个孩子的时候，

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孩子站在他爸爸面前。

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那是塔卢拉，

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00:07:55,260 --> 00:07:55,980
他的第二任妻子。

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她很棒。

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她是一位英国女演员。

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00:08:00,620 --> 00:08:01,980
他们实际上已经结婚两次了。

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00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,800
塔卢拉说这就是他童年时的情况。

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00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:07,140
他是个戏剧迷。

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00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:08,820
金博尔也这么说。

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00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:12,380
我问为什么。

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塔卢拉说

185
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为了他，

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爱情和家庭

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与这些心理折磨有关。

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00:08:23,300 --> 00:08:24,320
并且在很多方面，

189
00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:25,240
他会引导。

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我的意思是，塔卢拉会在 2008 年公司破产或发生任何可能的情况时与他在一起

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曾经或以后。

192
00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,260
而且他会因为压力太大而呕吐。

193
00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,160
然后他会引导事物

194
00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:41,320
他父亲曾说过，

195
00:08:41,420 --> 00:08:43,500
使用他父亲对他说过的话。

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00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:45,420
所以她告诉我，

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在这个男人的内心深处，这个男孩子仍然站在他父亲的面前。

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您认为对于我们许多人来说，这在多大程度上是正确的？

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00:08:55,300 --> 00:08:56,520
我认为这是真的

200
00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:57,960
但以许多不同的方式。

201
00:08:58,100 --> 00:08:59,960
我就说点个人的吧

202
00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:01,840
这就是我

203
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,580
幸运的是，也许这也有一点缺点，

204
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:07,160
事实上我拥有最伟大的

205
00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:08,940
你能想象到的父亲和母亲。

206
00:09:09,340 --> 00:09:11,440
他们是你想要的最善良的人

207
00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:11,580
见面。

208
00:09:11,680 --> 00:09:13,720
我在新奥尔良一个神奇的地方长大。

209
00:09:14,100 --> 00:09:16,600
我父亲是一名工程师，电气工程师。

210
00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,940
他总是很友善。

211
00:09:22,180 --> 00:09:22,980
也许

212
00:09:23,740 --> 00:09:26,320
我没那么有动力或那么疯狂。

213
00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,120
我不需要证明事情。

214
00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,540
所以我开始写关于埃隆·马斯克的文章。

215
00:09:30,660 --> 00:09:33,840
我可以写关于爱因斯坦或史蒂夫·乔布斯的文章

216
00:09:34,060 --> 00:09:35,740
或列奥纳多·达·芬奇，

217
00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:36,420
据你所知，

218
00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,320
完全被恶魔撕裂，有着不同的难度

219
00:09:40,420 --> 00:09:44,300
童年的情况，甚至没有得到他父亲的合法化。

220
00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,120
所以有时候我们这些幸运的人

221
00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,500
足够拥有真正的温柔，

222
00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:51,760
甜蜜的童年，

223
00:09:52,980 --> 00:09:54,740
我们在成长过程中遇到的恶魔较少，

224
00:09:54,780 --> 00:09:55,480
但我们一起长大

225
00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,560
更少的驱动器，我们最终可能会

226
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,720
成为博斯韦尔而不是博士。

227
00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:02,220
约翰逊。

228
00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,200
我们最终成为观察者，

229
00:10:05,740 --> 00:10:06,880
不是做者。

230
00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:11,360
所以我总是尊重那些在舞台上的人。

231
00:10:13,100 --> 00:10:15,480
你不认为自己是竞技场上的一个人。

232
00:10:16,180 --> 00:10:16,700
我有过

233
00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:18,080
一个温柔的、

234
00:10:18,580 --> 00:10:19,480
甜蜜的事业

235
00:10:20,620 --> 00:10:23,420
我必须报道真正有趣的人，

236
00:10:23,740 --> 00:10:27,180
但我从未发射过有一天可能到达火星的火箭。

237
00:10:27,700 --> 00:10:28,980
我从来没有把我们搬进

238
00:10:28,980 --> 00:10:30,080
电动汽车的空气。

239
00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:33,640
我从来没有在工厂车间熬夜过。

240
00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,460
我没有那些

241
00:10:39,340 --> 00:10:42,320
驱动器或

242
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,240
对风险的成瘾。

243
00:10:46,540 --> 00:10:48,060
我的意思是，埃隆沉迷于风险。

244
00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:50,460
他沉迷于冒险。

245
00:10:51,260 --> 00:10:53,820
我 如果我看到有危险的事情

246
00:10:54,020 --> 00:10:55,700
我花了一些时间计算，

247
00:10:55,740 --> 00:10:57,500
好吧，这里颠倒过来。

248
00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:05,000
但这是像埃隆·马斯克这样的人完成任务的另一个原因

249
00:11:05,740 --> 00:11:08,440
像我这样的人会写关于埃隆·马斯克的文章。

250
00:11:09,460 --> 00:11:11,180
这件事的另一方面，

251
00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:12,980
经历了艰难的童年，

252
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,940
无论是埃隆还是达芬奇，

253
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,020
想知道有没有什么智慧

254
00:11:21,740 --> 00:11:24,500
一些几乎你可以画出的建议，

255
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,280
你可以给那些童年经历困难的人。

256
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:30,820
我想我们每个人心里都有恶魔

257
00:11:31,140 --> 00:11:34,960
即使是我们这些在新的神奇地区长大的人

258
00:11:34,980 --> 00:11:36,660
奥尔良有甜蜜的父母。

259
00:11:37,700 --> 00:11:38,540
我们都有恶魔。

260
00:11:42,060 --> 00:11:44,660
生活中的第一条规则就是驾驭你的恶魔。

261
00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:48,860
知道你有雄心勃勃、没有雄心勃勃、或者你很懒惰等等。

262
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,160
列奥纳多·达芬奇知道自己是个拖延症患者。

263
00:11:53,820 --> 00:11:55,000
我认为

264
00:11:56,220 --> 00:11:57,840
知道这一点很有用

265
00:11:58,440 --> 00:11:59,840
你吃了什么，

266
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:01,520
知道如何利用它。

267
00:12:03,870 --> 00:12:06,020
也知道自己擅长什么。

268
00:12:06,700 --> 00:12:08,820
我以马斯克为例。

269
00:12:10,460 --> 00:12:12,160
我有点像金博尔·马斯克

270
00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:13,380
比埃隆.

271
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,900
我可能已经失去了同理心基因。

272
00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:19,000
这意味着什么？

273
00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:19,900
出色地，

274
00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,220
这意味着我经营《时代》杂志时还不错。

275
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,360
编辑部约有 150 人，

276
00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:28,960
我认识他们所有人并且

277
00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:30,380
我们度过了愉快的时光。

278
00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:31,760
当我去CNN的时候，

279
00:12:32,420 --> 00:12:33,680
我本来不太好

280
00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,360
成为组织的经理或执行官。

281
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:40,800
我有点太在乎了

282
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:46,320
人们不会生我的气或生我的气。

283
00:12:47,020 --> 00:12:48,960
埃隆谈到约翰·麦克尼尔时说，

284
00:12:49,140 --> 00:12:51,160
例如，谁是特斯拉的总裁。

285
00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:52,440
书上有。

286
00:12:52,580 --> 00:12:54,300
我和约翰·麦克尼尔聊了很长时间

287
00:12:54,860 --> 00:12:55,680
他说，

288
00:12:56,850 --> 00:12:58,080
埃隆刚刚

289
00:12:58,600 --> 00:12:59,600
会解雇人。

290
00:12:59,740 --> 00:13:01,080
他对人确实很粗暴。

291
00:13:01,380 --> 00:13:04,400
他对眼前的人没有同情心。

292
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,240
埃隆说，是的，没错。

293
00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:08,780
约翰·麦克尼尔不能解雇员工。

294
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,400
他更关心取悦眼前的人

295
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,160
而不是取悦整个企业或完成工作。

296
00:13:16,740 --> 00:13:22,600
过于渴望取悦他人可能会让你成为一名不那么强硬的经理。

297
00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,800
这并不意味着没有天赋过剩的伟人。

298
00:13:28,140 --> 00:13:28,820
本·富兰克林，

299
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,020
过度渴望取悦他人。

300
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:38,330
约翰·亚当斯和其他人对他最严厉的批评是他在暗示，

301
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,620
这意味着他一直在努力

302
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,160
让人们喜欢他。

303
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,320
但当他们无法弄清楚大状态时，这被证明是一件好事，

304
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,480
制宪会议上很少有国家问题，

305
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,660
当他们无法理解《巴黎条约》时，无论它是什么，

306
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,940
他将人们聚集在一起，这就是他的超能力。

307
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:02,020
回到你所问的课程，

308
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,800
第一个是驾驭你的恶魔。

309
00:14:05,780 --> 00:14:09,080
第二是了解自己的优势和超能力。

310
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:11,840
我的超能力

311
00:14:12,460 --> 00:14:14,120
绝对不是一个强硬的管理者。

312
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,980
在运行 CNN 一段时间后，我说，好吧，

313
00:14:17,580 --> 00:14:19,280
我已经证明我真的不是

314
00:14:19,300 --> 00:14:21,120
享受这个或知道如何做好这个。

315
00:14:22,060 --> 00:14:25,340
我还有其他天赋吗？

316
00:14:25,420 --> 00:14:26,120
是的，我想我有

317
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,820
真正近距离观察人的天赋，

318
00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,760
直接写下来，

319
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:34,220
但我希望叙事风格有趣。

320
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:35,380
那是一种力量。

321
00:14:35,780 --> 00:14:37,760
这与管理一个组织完全不同。

322
00:14:38,140 --> 00:14:46,840
直到我经营 CNN 三年后，我才意识到自己不适合担任真正的高管。

323
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:48,900
高强度

324
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,400
情况。

325
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,860
埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）在高度紧张的情况下被削减为高管

326
00:14:55,860 --> 00:14:59,480
情况如此之多，以至于当事情变得不那么激烈时，

327
00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:02,360
当他们实际上制造了足够的汽车并且

328
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:05,400
火箭正在上升和着陆，

329
00:15:06,340 --> 00:15:08,500
他想到了别的事情，这样他就可以激增

330
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:09,660
并且有更强的强度。

331
00:15:09,860 --> 00:15:15,220
他对强度上瘾，这就是他的超能力，

332
00:15:15,260 --> 00:15:18,320
这比成为一名优秀观察者的超能力要强大得多。

333
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:19,920
但我也觉得

334
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,040
以此为基础，

335
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:23,600
这不仅仅是上瘾

336
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,440
冒险和戏剧。

337
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,560
总有一个伟大的使命

338
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:30,940
它上面。

339
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:38,240
所以我想说这是对大局中的人的同理心。

340
00:15:39,180 --> 00:15:43,480
这是对人性的同情，而不是对人的同情

341
00:15:44,020 --> 00:15:45,080
三四个人

342
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,280
谁可能和你一起坐在会议室里。

343
00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:49,120
这是一件大事。

344
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:50,900
你在很多地方都看到了这一点

345
00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:51,220
的人。

346
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,500
你看，比尔·盖茨、拉里·萨默斯，

347
00:15:56,020 --> 00:15:56,560
埃隆·马斯克。

348
00:15:57,660 --> 00:16:01,500
他们总是对这些有同理心

349
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,600
人类的伟大目标。

350
00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:09,800
有时他们可能对面前人的情绪一无所知

351
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:11,200
他们有时还是冷酷无情的。

352
00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:13,640
马斯克，正如你所说，

353
00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:18,640
比我见过的任何人都更受使命驱动。

354
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:20,840
这不仅是使命，

355
00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:22,220
就像宇宙任务一样

356
00:16:23,420 --> 00:16:25,420
这意味着他有三个非常大的

357
00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:26,460
任务。

358
00:16:26,900 --> 00:16:27,400
一

359
00:16:28,180 --> 00:16:31,400
就是让人类成为航天文明，

360
00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:35,400
让我们进入多个行星或让我们到达火星。

361
00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:39,760
第二是让我们进入可持续能源时代，

362
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,780
带我们进入电动汽车和太阳能屋顶时代

363
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:46,260
电池组。

364
00:16:47,020 --> 00:16:48,300
第三是让

365
00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:50,520
确信人工智能

366
00:16:51,060 --> 00:16:53,700
安全且符合人类价值观。

367
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,820
我时不时地和他交谈，我们会谈论星链卫星或其他什么。

368
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,960
或者他会在 SpaceX 推动排在他前面的人

369
00:17:04,540 --> 00:17:05,680
并说，如果你这样做，

370
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:06,640
我们永远无法到达

371
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:07,600
火星在我们的一生中。

372
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,660
然后他会讲这对人类意识有多么重要

373
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,500
在我们有生之年到达火星。

374
00:17:13,980 --> 00:17:17,800
我在想，好吧，这是某人试图做的鼓舞人心的演讲

375
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:23,060
激励一个团队，或者也许这是你在播客上所做的一种武断。

376
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:24,660
但就像20号

377
00:17:24,780 --> 00:17:26,460
当我看着他的时候，我意识到，

378
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:27,080
好的，

379
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,240
我相信这个。

380
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,120
他实际上是受此驱使。

381
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:32,120
他是

382
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:38,620
沮丧和愤怒的是，由于这个特殊的小工程决定，

383
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,820
伟大的使命将无法完成。

384
00:17:41,940 --> 00:17:42,720
这不是鼓舞士气的话。

385
00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:43,960
这是一种字面上的挫败感。

386
00:17:45,020 --> 00:17:46,900
还有不耐烦、沮丧。

387
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:55,040
这也可能是他内心最根深蒂固的事情

388
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:56,720
是他的使命。

389
00:17:57,140 --> 00:18:02,780
他有一次对我开玩笑说他小时候多么喜欢看漫画。

390
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:05,220
他说，漫画书中所有的人，

391
00:18:05,980 --> 00:18:07,540
他们正在努力拯救世界，

392
00:18:07,580 --> 00:18:10,760
但他们把内裤穿在外面，看起来很可笑。

393
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,140
然后他停顿了一下说：

394
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,220
但他们正在努力拯救世界。

395
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,240
无论是乌克兰的星链

396
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:24,720
或前往火星的星舰或试图获得全球新的特斯拉，

397
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:30,120
我认为他对自己将要扮演的角色有一种史诗般的感觉

398
00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:33,080
在大事上帮助人类。

399
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:35,380
并且喜欢

400
00:18:36,060 --> 00:18:38,520
漫画书中的人物，

401
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:40,420
有时候真是可笑

402
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,060
但有时也是如此。

403
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:45,600
当我读到这本书的这一部分时，

404
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,780
我想到了所有的年轻人

405
00:18:51,140 --> 00:18:52,180
就这样挣扎着。

406
00:18:52,220 --> 00:18:54,740
我认为很多人都以不同的方式，

407
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,080
无论他们在没有父亲的情况下长大，

408
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,280
他们是否在身体、情感、精神虐待中长大

409
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:00,900
或任何种类的恶魔，

410
00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:01,740
正如你所说。

411
00:19:02,220 --> 00:19:04,380
而且读起来真的很痛苦

412
00:19:04,380 --> 00:19:06,460
但也非常鼓舞人心

413
00:19:07,420 --> 00:19:08,480
如果你

414
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,800
与那些恶魔并肩同行，

415
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,620
如果你不让

416
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:17,480
那种痛苦让你心碎

417
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:19,280
或者以某种方式引导它，

418
00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:20,660
如果可以这样说的话

419
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:21,680
你可以实现的，

420
00:19:21,860 --> 00:19:23,340
你可以在这个世界上做伟大的事情。

421
00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:27,560
嗯，这就是我们为什么写作的史诗般的观点

422
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,420
传记，比我想象的还要史诗。

423
00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:32,900
所以我说谢谢

424
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,260
因为在某些方面你想做的是说，

425
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,760
好吧，我是说，莱昂纳多，你说的是不合群，

426
00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:42,720
他生来非婚生

427
00:19:43,540 --> 00:19:48,180
在芬奇村，他是同性恋，他是左撇子，而且心烦意乱

428
00:19:48,980 --> 00:19:51,960
他的父亲不会让他合法化。

429
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:58,980
然后他漫步到佛罗伦萨小镇，他变成了

430
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,720
最伟大的艺术家和工程师

431
00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:03,560
文艺复兴时期的那一部分。

432
00:20:05,220 --> 00:20:06,920
我希望这本书能有所启发。

433
00:20:06,980 --> 00:20:07,820
詹妮弗·杜德娜，

434
00:20:08,660 --> 00:20:12,620
帮助发现 CRISPR 的基因编辑先驱，

435
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:14,120
基因编辑工具，

436
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,540
我的书《密码破解者》

437
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,520
她在夏威夷长大，感觉自己格格不入，

438
00:20:20,620 --> 00:20:23,860
在波利尼西亚村庄里是唯一的白人

439
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,060
并努力不辜负一个督促她的父亲。

440
00:20:27,220 --> 00:20:30,360
所以如果人们能够读书

441
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:33,060
我应该说一下詹妮弗·杜德娜，

442
00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:36,740
我的观点是她的学校辅导员告诉她，

443
00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:38,120
不，女孩不做科学。

444
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:39,760
你知道，科学不适合女孩。

445
00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:41,480
你不会做数学或科学。

446
00:20:42,220 --> 00:20:44,900
所以这促使她说，好吧，

447
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:47,060
我要做数学和科学。

448
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:48,920
只是为了快速打断，

449
00:20:49,740 --> 00:20:50,560
但詹妮弗·杜德娜，

450
00:20:50,940 --> 00:20:54,200
你写了一本关于她的精彩书，诺贝尔奖得主，

451
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,200
CRISPR 开发者，令人难以置信，21 世纪最伟大的科学家之一。

452
00:20:58,520 --> 00:20:58,800
正确的。

453
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,800
我说的是詹妮弗·杜德娜年轻时的事

454
00:21:02,340 --> 00:21:03,600
而她真的觉得，

455
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,480
实在是格格不入,

456
00:21:04,780 --> 00:21:08,600
就像你我以及很多有这种感觉的人一样

457
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:09,460
他们读书，

458
00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:11,540
他们带着书一起蜷缩起来。

459
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,300
所以她父亲把一本叫做《双螺旋》的书放在她的床上，

460
00:21:15,420 --> 00:21:23,240
詹姆斯·沃森 (James Watson) 撰写的关于他与罗莎琳德·富兰克林 (Rosalind Franklin) 和弗朗西斯·克里克 (Francis Crick) 发现 DNA 结构的书。

461
00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:27,020
她意识到，天哪，

462
00:21:27,660 --> 00:21:29,080
女孩可以成为科学家。

463
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,020
我的学校辅导员错了。

464
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,960
所以我认为书籍，

465
00:21:36,980 --> 00:21:38,820
就像她读这本书一样，

466
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,120
即使这是一本漫画书，

467
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,720
就像埃隆·马斯克读到的那样，

468
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,300
书籍有时可以启发你。

469
00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:48,660
我的每一本书都是关于这样的人

470
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:50,340
完全创新，

471
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,200
他们不仅聪明，

472
00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:54,220
因为我们谁都不会

473
00:21:54,220 --> 00:21:57,180
能够与爱因斯坦相媲美的心理处理能力。

474
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,060
但我们可以像他一样好奇

475
00:22:01,060 --> 00:22:04,060
像他一样富有创造力和跳出框框思考，

476
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,280
或者史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）所说的，思维不同。

477
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,160
所以我希望通过我的书，我想说

478
00:22:11,660 --> 00:22:13,380
这不是操作指南，

479
00:22:13,860 --> 00:22:14,660
但这是某人

480
00:22:14,660 --> 00:22:15,860
你可以并肩行走。

481
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:17,460
你可以看到

482
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,080
爱因斯坦在德国长大，是犹太人。

483
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:22,740
你可以看到詹妮弗

484
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:28,660
杜德纳作为局外人或莱昂纳多·达·芬奇或埃隆·马斯克成长

485
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,580
在非常暴力的南非

486
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:34,960
和一个心理上有困难的父亲。

487
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,340
当他去反种族隔离时下火车

488
00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:39,500
和弟弟一起开演唱会，

489
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:40,460
还有

490
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,940
一个头上插着刀的男人，

491
00:22:44,340 --> 00:22:47,340
他们踏入血泊，血就粘在他们的灵魂上。

492
00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:49,580
这导致

493
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,580
伤疤

494
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,020
这会持续你的余生。

495
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,420
问题不是

496
00:22:56,940 --> 00:22:59,060
如何避免留疤？

497
00:22:59,260 --> 00:23:00,820
这是你如何处理的？

498
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:02,600
爱因斯坦也一样，

499
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:11,040
我的传记之一，很难选出我最喜欢的传记，但是爱因斯坦，

500
00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:14,320
我的意思是，你真的画了另一个人的照片，

501
00:23:15,140 --> 00:23:16,440
我不想称他为不合群的人

502
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:23,000
但一个人不一定有成功人生的标准轨迹。

503
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,140
所以这非常鼓舞人心。

504
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,420
我不知道具体要问什么问题。

505
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:32,000
有一百万。

506
00:23:32,020 --> 00:23:33,980
好吧，我先谈谈不合适的问题，

507
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:36,240
因为我们谈到莱昂纳多就是这样。

508
00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:41,400
爱因斯坦是德国的犹太人，而当时的情况开始变得困难。

509
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:43,980
他学习说话很慢

510
00:23:44,660 --> 00:23:46,220
他是一位视觉思想家。

511
00:23:46,260 --> 00:23:48,400
所以他总是做白日梦，幻想一些事情。

512
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,640
他第一次申请苏黎世理工学院时，

513
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,800
因为他逃离了德国人

514
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,180
教育系统，因为死记硬背的学习太多了。

515
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:01,600
他被苏黎世理工学院拒绝了。

516
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,160
现在它是苏黎世第二好的学校，但他们拒绝爱因斯坦。

517
00:24:05,260 --> 00:24:06,120
我试图找到，

518
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:10,240
但不知道苏黎世理工学院招生顾问的名字。

519
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:11,960
就像你拒绝了爱因斯坦一样。

520
00:24:12,620 --> 00:24:15,660
然后他的成绩就没有进入班上的前一半。

521
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:17,920
一旦他这样做了

522
00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:22,440
他去读研究生，他们不接受他的论文。

523
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:23,940
所以他找不到工作。

524
00:24:23,980 --> 00:24:25,340
他不教这个。

525
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:28,560
他甚至尝试了大约14所不同的高中，

526
00:24:28,780 --> 00:24:31,260
去体育馆找工作，他们

527
00:24:31,260 --> 00:24:31,980
不会带他。

528
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:36,160
1905年，他成为瑞士专利局的三级审查员。

529
00:24:36,980 --> 00:24:40,660
三等，因为他们拒绝了他的博士论文。

530
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,120
所以他不可能是二等或一等

531
00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:45,620
因为他没有博士学位。

532
00:24:46,260 --> 00:24:47,940
但他却坐在凳子上

533
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,000
1905年专利局

534
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:51,420
并写道

535
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:55,760
三篇彻底改变科学的论文。

536
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:58,240
如果你想成为

537
00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:02,180
1906年被误解或不被重视，

538
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:03,040
他仍然是第三个

539
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:03,580
类专利。

540
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,020
1907 年，他仍然如此。

541
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,400
直到1909年，人们才意识到这一点

542
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,540
相对论的概念可能是正确的，它可能会颠覆整个牛顿物理学。

543
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,240
这怎么可能

544
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,320
科学史上最伟大的三篇论文即将写成

545
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,440
一年之内由这个人？

546
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,460
有没有一些感悟，

547
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,100
你画出智慧吗？

548
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,020
另外，他的日常工作是一名专利审查员。

549
00:25:29,140 --> 00:25:30,480
确实有三篇论文，

550
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:31,880
但还有一个附录

551
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,420
因为一旦你弄清楚了量子理论，然后你就明白了相对论

552
00:25:36,420 --> 00:25:40,180
你正在了解麦克斯韦方程组和光速，

553
00:25:41,140 --> 00:25:42,940
他做了一些补充。

554
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,680
这是整个物理学中最著名的方程

555
00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:48,480
其中 E 等于 MC 平方。

556
00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:50,600
所以今年是非常好的一年。

557
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,900
部分原因是因为他是一位视觉思考者。

558
00:25:54,940 --> 00:25:56,160
我认为这很有帮助

559
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:02,800
他在专利局工作，而不是某个教授的助手

560
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,980
学院是他必须遵守的规则。

561
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,560
所以专利局说这样做

562
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:12,300
同步时钟的设备，因为瑞士人刚刚进入标准时区

563
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,300
正如你所知，瑞士人往往更像瑞士人。

564
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:16,700
他们关心它是否袭击

565
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:18,480
巴塞尔的时刻，

566
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:20,880
它应该做同样的事情并在最后燃烧。

567
00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:24,120
所以你必须在两个遥远的时钟之间发送光信号。

568
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,360
他正在想象沿着光束骑行的样子。

569
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,900
他说，好吧，如果你赶上它，

570
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:32,900
如果你走得几乎一样快

571
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:33,840
它看起来会静止不动。

572
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,220
但是麦克斯韦方程组

573
00:26:35,780 --> 00:26:36,760
不允许这样做。

574
00:26:36,780 --> 00:26:37,200
他说，

575
00:26:37,580 --> 00:26:40,440
他让我手心出汗，让我很担心。

576
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,500
所以他终于明白了，因为他正在研究这些设备来同步时钟，

577
00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:48,300
如果你的旅行速度非常非常快

578
00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:52,840
看起来与你同步或与你同步的是

579
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,280
与向另一个方向快速行驶的人不同。

580
00:26:56,900 --> 00:26:58,940
那一次他实现了精神上的飞跃

581
00:26:59,940 --> 00:27:02,120
光速始终恒定，

582
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,600
但时间是相对的，取决于你的运动状态。

583
00:27:05,220 --> 00:27:08,640
所以这就是那种开箱即用的思维方式，那些飞跃

584
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,140
这使得 1905 年成为他的奇迹之年。

585
00:27:12,740 --> 00:27:13,920
与马斯克一样，

586
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:15,400
我是说，

587
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,000
继通用汽车和福特之后，

588
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,060
每个人都放弃电动汽车

589
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:21,740
只是

590
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:22,760
说，

591
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:24,960
我知道我们将如何走上一条路

592
00:27:25,580 --> 00:27:30,660
改变世界的整个轨迹进入电动汽车时代。

593
00:27:31,340 --> 00:27:32,840
然后当他从俄罗斯回来时

594
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:33,980
他试图购买的地方

595
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,960
一艘小火箭飞船，这样他就可以把一个实验温室送到火星，

596
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,500
他们取笑

597
00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:44,460
甚至在一次喝醉的午餐中，还向他们吐口水。

598
00:27:45,220 --> 00:27:46,720
这是非常偶然的

599
00:27:47,420 --> 00:27:49,980
因为在回国的飞机上，

600
00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:52,100
在达美航空的航班上，

601
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,960
他就像在计算需要多少材料，

602
00:27:56,140 --> 00:27:57,760
多少金属，多少燃料，

603
00:27:58,460 --> 00:28:00,100
实际要花多少钱。

604
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:08,200
所以他正在想象其他人认为不可能的事情。

605
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,180
这就是史蒂夫·乔布斯的朋友所说的现实扭曲场。

606
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:14,820
这让人们发疯。

607
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:19,800
这让他们发疯，但也促使他们去做他们认为自己做不到的事情。

608
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:21,680
你说的是视觉思维。

609
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:27,120
我想知道您是否看到过不同风格和思维方式的相似之处

610
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:34,220
操纵这些人的思想。

611
00:28:34,860 --> 00:28:38,940
那么你认为埃隆、史蒂夫·乔布斯之间有相似之处吗？

612
00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:40,940
爱因斯坦、达芬奇、

613
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,460
特别是在

614
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:43,860
他们怎么想？

615
00:28:44,460 --> 00:28:46,480
我认为他们都是视觉思考者

616
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:49,320
也许是因为小时候有轻微的残疾，

617
00:28:50,180 --> 00:28:54,380
我认为，这意味着莱昂纳多是左撇子，而且有点阅读障碍。

618
00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:58,340
当然，爱因斯坦也有审美干扰镜。

619
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:59,920
他会重复一些事情。

620
00:28:59,980 --> 00:29:02,020
他学说话的速度很慢。

621
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,980
所以我认为可视化有很大帮助。

622
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:07,780
和马斯克一起，

623
00:29:09,140 --> 00:29:12,280
当我和他一起走在工厂的生产线上时，我总是看到这一点

624
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,960
或者在产品开发中，

625
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,300
他会看到的地方

626
00:29:17,460 --> 00:29:22,680
比如说，星舰助推器猛禽发动机下方的隔热罩。

627
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:26,200
他会说，为什么一定要这样？

628
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,400
难道我们不能这样修剪吗？

629
00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:28,130
甚至

630
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,400
把这部分去掉。

631
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,000
他可以想象材料科学。

632
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:33,300
有

633
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:41,120
我书中的一些小轶事，但有一次他在特斯拉生产线上，他们正试图获得 5,000 辆汽车

634
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,640
2018年的一周。

635
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:44,560
这是生死攸关的情况。

636
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,900
他正在研究那些机器

637
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,820
用螺栓将某物固定到底盘上。

638
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,780
还有拉尔斯·莫拉维（Lars Moravey），他的一位伟大副官，

639
00:29:56,060 --> 00:29:58,020
来了，他们必须召唤他。

640
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:58,360
他说，

641
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,920
为什么这里有六个螺栓？

642
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,120
拉斯和其他人解释说，

643
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,720
好吧，对于碰撞测试或其他任何事情，

644
00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:09,240
压力会是这样的，

645
00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:09,740
所以你必须这样做。

646
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:10,500
他们很废话，

647
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:11,120
巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉。

648
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:12,860
他说，不。

649
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:14,460
如果你想象一下，

650
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,600
你会看到是否有崩溃

651
00:30:17,420 --> 00:30:20,500
力会向这边和那边移动。

652
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,680
并且可以用四个螺栓来完成。

653
00:30:23,940 --> 00:30:25,780
现在这听起来很冒险。

654
00:30:25,940 --> 00:30:27,560
他们去测试它并设计它，

655
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:28,420
但事实证明这是正确的。

656
00:30:28,940 --> 00:30:30,180
我知道这看起来微不足道

657
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,540
但我可以给你 500 个，

658
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:34,620
在任何一天，

659
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,740
他正在想象物理

660
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,200
工程或制造问题。

661
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,020
这听起来很平常。

662
00:30:45,020 --> 00:30:45,900
但对我来说，

663
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,220
如果你说他有什么特别之处

664
00:30:48,580 --> 00:30:50,000
有一个任务驱动的事情。

665
00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:51,600
我给你很多理由

666
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:58,180
但原因之一是他关心的不仅仅是产品的设计，

667
00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:02,760
但可视化产品的制造过程，

668
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,820
制造机器的机器。

669
00:31:05,220 --> 00:31:06,220
这就是我们未能做到的

670
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,660
过去40年在美国所做的事情。

671
00:31:08,820 --> 00:31:10,240
我们外包了很多制造业务。

672
00:31:10,820 --> 00:31:12,000
我不认为你可以

673
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,220
做一个好的创新者

674
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,540
如果您不知道如何制作您正在设计的东西。

675
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:23,840
这就是为什么马斯克把他的设计师办公桌放在工厂装配线旁边，这样

676
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,020
他们必须想象自己画的东西

677
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,660
当它成为物理对象时。

678
00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:33,980
所以理解从物理一直到软件的一切，

679
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:34,980
就像端到端一样。

680
00:31:35,380 --> 00:31:39,260
嗯，端到端的控制很重要，

681
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,180
当然是史蒂夫·乔布斯。

682
00:31:41,660 --> 00:31:42,940
我正在看我的 iPhone。

683
00:31:43,380 --> 00:31:43,960
这是一件大事。

684
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:50,100
该硬件只能与苹果软件配合使用，并且在一段时间内只能与 iTunes 商店配合使用。

685
00:31:52,210 --> 00:31:58,440
所以他有一个端到端的设计，使它像京都的禅宗花园一样，经过精心策划，

686
00:31:58,980 --> 00:31:59,940
但却是一件美丽的事情。

687
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:06,320
对于马斯克来说，当他刚加入特斯拉并担任首席执行官之前，

688
00:32:06,460 --> 00:32:07,120
当他刚刚

689
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,280
执行主席及

690
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,440
基本上是财务人员为其提供资金，

691
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:13,820
他们把一切都外包了。

692
00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:18,880
他们在日本制造电池，电池组将在日本的一些烧烤店

693
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:26,180
泰国并送往英国的Lotus工厂，装入Lotus Elise底盘然后提及。

694
00:32:26,860 --> 00:32:28,700
那真是一场噩梦。

695
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,920
您无法对制造过程进行端到端控制。

696
00:32:33,460 --> 00:32:35,180
于是他走向了另一个极端。

697
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:41,040
他从丰田公司获得了位于弗里蒙特的一家工厂，他想在内部完成所有工作，

698
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:41,760
软件

699
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,040
内部,

700
00:32:43,420 --> 00:32:44,580
内部的绘画，

701
00:32:45,620 --> 00:32:48,640
电池。

702
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:50,480
他自己制造电池。

703
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,740
我认为端到端的控制是他性格的一部分。

704
00:32:57,660 --> 00:32:58,380
但它

705
00:32:58,980 --> 00:33:01,480
也将允许特斯拉

706
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:03,040
要有创新精神。

707
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:05,000
是的，我得看看

708
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,320
并详细了解一

709
00:33:10,660 --> 00:33:13,180
一个例子，这是

710
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:14,420
汽车的大脑

711
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,440
在自动驾驶仪中，从移动眼睛出发

712
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,520
内部构建自动驾驶系统

713
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,360
基本上摆脱了所有不存在的传感器

714
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,220
丰富的数据使其对人工智能友好，

715
00:33:31,940 --> 00:33:33,780
有点像说我们可以用远见来完成这一切。

716
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:35,220
就像你说的，

717
00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:36,700
拆下一些螺栓。

718
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,380
所以有时候就是一些小事，

719
00:33:38,460 --> 00:33:41,500
但有时这确实是一件大事，比如摆脱雷达。

720
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,720
好吧，仅摆脱雷达的愿景是巨大的

721
00:33:45,540 --> 00:33:47,040
每个人都反对。

722
00:33:47,220 --> 00:33:48,900
大家。这仍然是一个挑战。

723
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,620
他们仍在努力创造下一代，

724
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:52,360
某种形式的雷达，

725
00:33:52,620 --> 00:33:54,320
但它又回来了

726
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:55,220
至首要原则。

727
00:33:55,820 --> 00:33:56,940
我们正在谈论可视化。

728
00:33:57,500 --> 00:33:58,180
好吧，他开始了

729
00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:00,720
遵循首要原则

730
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,780
物理学的第一原理涉及诸如人类仅用什么来驾驶之类的东西

731
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:08,240
视觉输入。

732
00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:09,580
他们没有雷达。

733
00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:10,560
他们没有激光雷达。

734
00:34:10,620 --> 00:34:11,580
他们没有声纳。

735
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:12,780
所以

736
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:19,520
物理定律中没有任何理由使得视觉只能

737
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:22,520
自动驾驶技术不会成功。

738
00:34:23,340 --> 00:34:26,940
现在这成为他的信念

739
00:34:26,940 --> 00:34:28,120
受到很多阻力。

740
00:34:31,020 --> 00:34:32,040
顺便说一句，他

741
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,540
并没有那么成功地满足他的最后期限

742
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,300
开始自动驾驶。

743
00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:38,040
他太乐观了

744
00:34:39,180 --> 00:34:43,880
但这是摆脱不必要的东西的首要原则。

745
00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:45,920
现在你可能会认为激光雷达，

746
00:34:45,980 --> 00:34:46,900
为什么不使用它呢？

747
00:34:46,980 --> 00:34:48,060
比如为什么不使用暗恋呢？

748
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,260
就像，是的，我们只能用视觉来做事，

749
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:52,200
但当我晚上仰望星星时

750
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,700
我也用望远镜。

751
00:34:54,420 --> 00:34:54,800
出色地，

752
00:34:55,140 --> 00:34:56,240
你可以使用激光雷达，

753
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,200
但你无法大规模生产数百万辆汽车。

754
00:34:59,340 --> 00:35:00,260
在某个时刻，

755
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,660
你不仅要让它成为一个好产品，

756
00:35:02,820 --> 00:35:04,880
而是一种规模化的产品。

757
00:35:05,380 --> 00:35:05,920
而你不能让

758
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,820
它基于谷歌地图等地图，

759
00:35:07,940 --> 00:35:12,680
因为它永远无法从新奥尔良开车到

760
00:35:12,770 --> 00:35:16,220
新奥尔良天气太热的时候我想去的地方是斯莱德尔（Slidell）。

761
00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:19,300
以全自动驾驶为例。

762
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:23,600
他一直痴迷于他所谓的机器人出租车。

763
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:25,620
我们将打造下一代

764
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,360
没有方向盘的汽车，

765
00:35:28,340 --> 00:35:28,980
没有踏板，

766
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:31,080
因为它将是完全自驾。

767
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:31,840
你只要召唤它就可以了。

768
00:35:32,260 --> 00:35:34,040
你不需要驾驶它。

769
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:35,580
嗯，一次又一次，

770
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:37,220
我告诉过你的所有这些人

771
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,740
拉尔斯·莫拉夫 (Lars Morave) 和德鲁·巴格利诺 (Drew Baglino) 等人，

772
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:45,060
他们说，好吧，好吧，这听起来确实不错，但这还没有发生。

773
00:35:45,540 --> 00:35:50,980
我们需要打造一款价值 25,000 美元、适合大众市场的全球汽车

774
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:51,840
带方向盘。

775
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:57,760
是的，几个月前他终于转过身来说道，

776
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:58,880
我们开始做吧。

777
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:02,320
然后他开始关注装配线如何运作？

778
00:36:02,380 --> 00:36:07,340
我们将如何做到这一点，使其成为机器人出租车的相同平台，以便您可以进行相同的组装。

779
00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:08,440
同样地，

780
00:36:08,940 --> 00:36:09,860
完全自驾，

781
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,880
他们通过编写数十万行代码来做到这一点

782
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:16,320
会说这样的话

783
00:36:16,460 --> 00:36:17,420
如果你看到红灯，

784
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:17,960
停止。

785
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,180
如果有闪烁的灯，如果有两条黄线，请执行此操作。

786
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:22,500
如果有自行车道的话

787
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:22,980
做这个。

788
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,520
如果有人行横道，就这样做。

789
00:36:25,020 --> 00:36:27,160
嗯，这确实很难做到。

790
00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:29,620
Naly 是通过人工来做到的

791
00:36:29,620 --> 00:36:32,020
仅智能和机器学习。

792
00:36:32,460 --> 00:36:36,400
FSD12将以十亿左右为基础

793
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:37,480
框架

794
00:36:38,140 --> 00:36:41,100
特斯拉每周都会对特斯拉司机说：

795
00:36:41,460 --> 00:36:43,360
当人类处于这种情况时会发生什么？

796
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:44,420
人类做了什么？

797
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:46,000
我们只挑选最优秀的人，

798
00:36:46,180 --> 00:36:47,500
五星级司机，

799
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,500
正如埃隆所说，Uber 司机。

800
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:56,160
所以他改变了主意并转向首要原则，

801
00:36:56,860 --> 00:36:57,620
但说，

802
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,400
好吧，我什至要改成全自动驾驶了。

803
00:37:01,060 --> 00:37:02,400
所以这不是基于规则的。

804
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,380
它变得基于人工智能。

805
00:37:04,860 --> 00:37:08,700
就像 ChatGPT 不会尝试回答你的问题一样，

806
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:09,800
谁是最好的五个

807
00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:13,040
教皇什么的通过学习？

808
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:19,960
ChatGPT 通过吸收数十亿

809
00:37:20,580 --> 00:37:22,520
人们写过的作品。

810
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:23,980
这将是人工智能，

811
00:37:24,180 --> 00:37:26,400
但现实世界是通过摄取视频来完成的。

812
00:37:26,860 --> 00:37:30,260
有时感觉他和其他人，

813
00:37:31,180 --> 00:37:32,860
他们正在这个世界上成功地建造事物，

814
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,900
基本上自信地探索黑暗的房间

815
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,320
带着非常自信的态度，

816
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,080
那个房间实际上是什么样子的雄心勃勃的愿景。

817
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,320
他们只是径直走向黑暗。

818
00:37:49,180 --> 00:37:51,840
地上没有令人痛苦的玩具或乐高积木。

819
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,120
我只是去走走。

820
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:54,900
我确切地知道墙有多远。

821
00:37:55,580 --> 00:37:59,080
然后很快就愿意在遇到问题时进行调整，

822
00:37:59,420 --> 00:38:00,180
他们踩在

823
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,460
乐高和他们的身体充满了很多的痛苦。

824
00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:09,400
我的意思是，这种进化似乎发生在你

825
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,240
一路上发现真正好的想法，让你能够转变方向。

826
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:15,260
就像我一样，

827
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,420
从几年前开始，

828
00:38:20,460 --> 00:38:22,880
当你能看到安德烈·卡帕蒂的时候，

829
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,000
自动驾驶仪软件2.0进化，

830
00:38:26,420 --> 00:38:29,740
对我来说，很明显这与汽车无关。

831
00:38:30,540 --> 00:38:32,520
这是关于机器人擎天柱的。

832
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,640
如果我们一百年后回顾过去，

833
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,820
人们会记住这辆车是一辆很酷的车，良好的交通，

834
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,760
但自动驾驶仪不会

835
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,460
是控制汽车的东西。

836
00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:50,300
它将是允许具体化人工智能系统的东西

837
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,540
了解世界。

838
00:38:52,940 --> 00:38:53,560
如此广泛地说，

839
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:57,420
那种方法，你会偶然发现

840
00:38:57,500 --> 00:38:57,700
它。

841
00:38:57,980 --> 00:39:00,620
特斯拉会成为一家汽车公司吗？

842
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:02,680
它会是一家人工智能公司吗？

843
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:04,580
它会是一家机器人公司吗？

844
00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:06,680
它会成为一家家庭机器人公司吗？

845
00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:08,260
它会是一家能源公司吗？

846
00:39:08,420 --> 00:39:09,440
然后你有点

847
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:16,820
当你带着愿景自信地前进时，慢慢地发现这一点。

848
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,880
只要有这种信心的支持，观察这种演变就会很有趣。

849
00:39:22,010 --> 00:39:25,300
为此需要做一些事情。

850
00:39:25,620 --> 00:39:27,020
一是敢于冒险。

851
00:39:27,380 --> 00:39:32,800
没有手电筒和地图，人们不会进入黑暗的房间，除非你是一个敢于冒险的人，除非你有冒险精神。

852
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:42,420
第二个是拥有迭代的大脑循环，您可以在其中处理信息并进行反馈循环

853
00:39:42,420 --> 00:39:43,080
并使其发挥作用。

854
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:49,880
第三，这就是我们在美国甚至全世界都未能做到的事情，

855
00:39:50,940 --> 00:39:53,300
就是当你冒险的时候，

856
00:39:54,140 --> 00:39:56,260
你必须意识到你会把事情搞砸。

857
00:39:57,980 --> 00:39:59,380
前三火箭，

858
00:40:00,620 --> 00:40:02,520
美国宇航局的猎鹰火箭，

859
00:40:03,260 --> 00:40:04,460
他们爆炸了。

860
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,400
即使是星舰，三分半钟，

861
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:08,160
但第一次就爆炸了。

862
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,620
所以我认为波音公司和美国宇航局以及其他公司已经成为

863
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:18,880
在不知道出口在哪里的情况下不愿意进入你的黑暗房间

864
00:40:19,020 --> 00:40:21,000
以及通向出口的有灯光的道路。

865
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:25,820
每当创造美国的人们来到这里时，

866
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:30,600
五月花号是否是纳粹难民

867
00:40:31,260 --> 00:40:33,280
他们冒了很大的风险才到达这里。

868
00:40:33,860 --> 00:40:36,140
现在我想我们已经

869
00:40:36,740 --> 00:40:40,220
裁判员比我们的冒险者还多，

870
00:40:41,020 --> 00:40:45,600
更多律师、监管者和其他人

871
00:40:45,620 --> 00:40:47,620
说你不能这样做，那太冒险了，

872
00:40:48,140 --> 00:40:49,600
比愿意创新的人。

873
00:40:50,060 --> 00:40:50,720
而你两者都需要。

874
00:40:51,820 --> 00:40:55,060
我认为你也对50，

875
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,640
100年后，

876
00:40:57,860 --> 00:41:01,000
除此之外，马斯克最被人们铭记的还有什么

877
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:02,100
太空旅行

878
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,300
是现实世界的人工智能。

879
00:41:05,780 --> 00:41:07,860
不仅仅是机器人擎天柱，

880
00:41:08,020 --> 00:41:10,660
但是擎天柱机器人和自动驾驶汽车，

881
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,440
它们几乎是一样的。

882
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:20,100
他们使用 GPU 集群或 dojo 芯片或其他任何东西

883
00:41:20,420 --> 00:41:22,020
处理现实世界的数据。

884
00:41:22,620 --> 00:41:24,840
我们都得到了，你也在你的播客上做到了，

885
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,800
对大型语言模型非常兴奋，

886
00:41:28,660 --> 00:41:32,300
生成预测文本人工智能。

887
00:41:32,980 --> 00:41:33,640
没关系，

888
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,200
特别是如果你想

889
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:36,640
与您的聊天机器人聊天。

890
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,980
但圣杯是通用人工智能。

891
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,480
其中最困难的部分是现实世界的人工智能。

892
00:41:45,340 --> 00:41:52,680
我认为这就是擎天柱机器人或完全自动驾驶的地方，

893
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:54,120
超前

894
00:41:54,660 --> 00:41:56,200
任何其他人的。

895
00:41:57,580 --> 00:41:57,920
出色地，

896
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:00,340
我喜欢你说的闲聊。

897
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,320
我想说的是最伟大的之一

898
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:11,560
作为作家，有趣的是，你谈论语言和语言的掌握只是闲聊。

899
00:42:12,420 --> 00:42:14,600
人们会因为一些话而坠入爱河。

900
00:42:14,780 --> 00:42:16,260
人们已经陷入战争

901
00:42:16,260 --> 00:42:16,720
一些单词。

902
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,380
我认为言语有很大的力量。

903
00:42:18,780 --> 00:42:21,040
这实际上是一个有趣的问题

904
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,380
世界的智慧，

905
00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:26,460
人类的智慧在于文字或视觉，

906
00:42:26,740 --> 00:42:27,380
是在物理上吗？

907
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,680
我真的不知道——这是数学方面的。

908
00:42:31,180 --> 00:42:33,060
也许这一切都归结为数学，最后，

909
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:35,780
这种关于现实世界的讨论

910
00:42:35,780 --> 00:42:38,660
也许人工智能与语言是一样的。

911
00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:42,480
我有机会经常出去玩

912
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,180
在虚拟宇宙中与先生。

913
00:42:44,260 --> 00:42:49,900
马克·扎克伯格最近发现，男孩就是其中的现实主义。

914
00:42:50,580 --> 00:42:54,640
未来发生的事情是令人难以置信的。

915
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,120
我在匹兹堡接受了扫描

916
00:42:59,900 --> 00:43:01,000
10小时。

917
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:08,660
我进入了虚拟世界，那里有一个我的虚拟版本，我必须和那个虚拟版本一起出去玩。

918
00:43:09,260 --> 00:43:10,160
你喜欢你自己吗？

919
00:43:10,860 --> 00:43:12,960
嗯，我从来不喜欢自己，

920
00:43:14,020 --> 00:43:16,780
但更容易喜欢另一个

921
00:43:17,460 --> 00:43:17,820
家伙。

922
00:43:18,260 --> 00:43:19,020
这很有趣。

923
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:19,920
他喜欢你吗？

924
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,900
他似乎不太在意。

925
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:24,960
这就是缺乏同理心。

926
00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:32,500
这让我开始比以前更多地质疑，

927
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,760
这个物理现实有多重要？

928
00:43:36,860 --> 00:43:42,200
因为我在那个虚拟宇宙中看到了自己和其他人，

929
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:44,380
脸部的细节，

930
00:43:45,740 --> 00:43:49,220
所有你认为的事情，

931
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,240
也许如果你照镜子看看自己有缺陷，

932
00:43:52,260 --> 00:43:53,080
所有这些东西。

933
00:43:53,980 --> 00:43:55,880
当我审视自己和他人时，

934
00:43:56,020 --> 00:43:57,200
所有这些都是美丽的。

935
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:57,760
它

936
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:04,520
是真实的、激烈的、可怕的，因为

937
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:05,400
你就像，

938
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:06,480
好吧，你可以吗

939
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:07,700
在虚拟宇宙中杀人？

940
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,440
因为你被允许做什么？

941
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:13,480
因为你可以复制

942
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:14,620
很多这样的事情和

943
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:19,360
你开始质疑生命的基本要素是什么

944
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,440
值得住在这里，因为我们知道这是人类。

945
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:24,680
你有没有和埃隆谈过他的看法

946
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,220
模拟生活会是什么样子？你如何判断这是否属实？

947
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,020
是的，有一种持续的轻松，

948
00:44:31,140 --> 00:44:33,320
但也有一种严肃的感觉

949
00:44:34,140 --> 00:44:35,720
这只是一个游戏。

950
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:37,420
我的理论之一

951
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,760
关于埃隆，一个小理论，

952
00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:43,720
问题是他读《银河系漫游指南》的次数太多了。

953
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:52,580
如你所知，那里有一个场景说有一个关于宇宙的理论

954
00:44:53,060 --> 00:44:56,960
如果有人发现了宇宙意义的秘密，

955
00:44:57,340 --> 00:44:58,420
它将被替换

956
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,620
甚至更复杂的宇宙。

957
00:45:00,820 --> 00:45:03,440
那么道格拉斯·亚当斯写的下一行是：

958
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,360
还有另一种理论认为这已经发生了。

959
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,800
我并不想头脑清醒

960
00:45:08,820 --> 00:45:11,400
但我知道埃隆·马斯克正在尝试这样做。

961
00:45:11,780 --> 00:45:13,440
这有一种幽默感。

962
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,440
《搭便车指南》充满了巨大的幽默感。

963
00:45:16,980 --> 00:45:21,780
我真的认为这帮助马斯克走出了他最黑暗的时期

964
00:45:21,780 --> 00:45:24,800
弄清楚生活到底是什么的乐趣。

965
00:45:25,140 --> 00:45:27,120
我想知道是否有更小的一面我们可以说，

966
00:45:28,260 --> 00:45:32,440
刚刚非常了解埃隆，愚蠢，

967
00:45:33,460 --> 00:45:36,300
愿意参与这一切的荒谬

968
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:37,780
玩得开心。

969
00:45:38,940 --> 00:45:39,480
那是什么？

970
00:45:40,180 --> 00:45:44,400
这只是个性的怪癖还是根本原因

971
00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:47,960
经营六家以上公司的人的一个方面？

972
00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:50,900
嗯，就像视频一样，这是一个安全阀

973
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:53,080
游戏和多托邦和埃尔登戒指，

974
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:54,660
他的释放阀。

975
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,080
他确实有一种爆炸感

976
00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:00,360
如你所知，幽默。

977
00:46:01,060 --> 00:46:04,680
奇怪的是当他突然转变时

978
00:46:05,220 --> 00:46:12,060
从黑暗恶魔模式中，你在会议室，他真的对某件事感到不安。

979
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,180
不仅有暗黑气息，

980
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,500
但他却发出了一些阴暗的话语，他说：

981
00:46:17,820 --> 00:46:20,560
如果您死亡等，您的辞职将被接受。

982
00:46:21,740 --> 00:46:23,500
然后有东西弹出

983
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:25,800
然后他拿出手机

984
00:46:26,340 --> 00:46:33,420
然后上演《邦妮·蟒蛇》的短剧，比如《傻步学校》或约翰·克里斯的短剧。

985
00:46:33,980 --> 00:46:36,440
他又开始大笑，事情就破裂了。

986
00:46:39,020 --> 00:46:42,040
就好像他有不同的模式，

987
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,460
模拟人类模式、工程模式、

988
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,100
黑暗与恶魔模式，

989
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,900
当然还有愚蠢和令人眼花缭乱的模式。

990
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:59,000
是的，你实际上已经打开了埃隆的书，里面引用了埃隆和史蒂夫·乔布斯的名言。

991
00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:00,880
所以埃隆的引言是，

992
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:01,980
对于任何我冒犯过的人，

993
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:02,940
我只想说，

994
00:47:02,980 --> 00:47:03,920
这是 SNL 上的节目，

995
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:05,340
我只想说，

996
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,420
我重新发明了电动汽车，并且用火箭飞船将人们送往火星。

997
00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:12,680
你是否也认为我会成为一个冷漠的普通人？

998
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:14,520
然后引用史蒂夫·乔布斯的话，

999
00:47:14,540 --> 00:47:20,620
当然，那些疯狂到认为自己可以改变世界的人才是真正改变世界的人。

1000
00:47:21,290 --> 00:47:25,840
那么您认为老人的作用是什么呢？

1001
00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:27,840
疯狂和天才？

1002
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:29,120
你认为是什么

1003
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,280
疯狂在其中的作用是什么？

1004
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:30,760
出色地，

1005
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,620
首先，我们都承认马斯克有时很疯狂。

1006
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:37,180
我的意思是，并且

1007
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,380
那么我们来算一下，

1008
00:47:40,980 --> 00:47:44,540
我尝试通过讲故事来做到这一点，而不是通过热衷

1009
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:45,680
和讲道，

1010
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,860
这种疯狂的作用在哪里。

1011
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:51,280
给我一个故事，

1012
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:52,120
告诉我一个轶事

1013
00:47:52,260 --> 00:47:53,100
告诉我他哪里疯了。

1014
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,160
几乎最后一个例子，

1015
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,640
AI，但他第一次从星舰上发射，

1016
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,260
在倒计时中止和开球之间，

1017
00:48:06,260 --> 00:48:08,680
他去迈阿密参加一个广告销售会议

1018
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,460
第一次见到琳达·艾卡里诺，

1019
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:11,400
让她担任首席执行官。

1020
00:48:11,740 --> 00:48:13,340
我的意思是，有一种非常冲动的冲动

1021
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:13,640
他。

1022
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:14,460
然后他就飞回来了

1023
00:48:14,940 --> 00:48:22,380
他们发射了星际飞船，你意识到有动力，有

1024
00:48:22,380 --> 00:48:24,000
恶魔，还有疯狂。

1025
00:48:26,860 --> 00:48:29,940
有时你想把它们拉出来。

1026
00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:31,700
你想夺走他的

1027
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:33,800
所以他不会在凌晨 3 点发推文。

1028
00:48:34,220 --> 00:48:35,540
你想说，

1029
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:36,720
别这么疯狂了。

1030
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:38,960
但后来你意识到

1031
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,300
在《一报还一报》的最后有一句莎士比亚的精彩台词。

1032
00:48:43,820 --> 00:48:44,320
他说，

1033
00:48:44,620 --> 00:48:47,740
即使是最好的人也是由错误塑造而成的。

1034
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,580
所以你要承担马斯克的过错，

1035
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,380
例如，其中包括一种可爱的疯狂，

1036
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,340
但也有疯狂，就像疯狂一样，

1037
00:49:00,210 --> 00:49:04,480
还有这个驱动和恶魔模式。

1038
00:49:05,860 --> 00:49:09,280
我不知道你能把那根线从布料上取下来吗

1039
00:49:09,820 --> 00:49:11,160
并且织物保持完整。

1040
00:49:13,060 --> 00:49:13,600
我想知道，

1041
00:49:14,740 --> 00:49:20,000
有时令我感到难过的是，我们生活在一个甚至不庆祝的社会

1042
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:21,300
疯狂的阴暗面

1043
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,840
承认这一切都集中在一个包中。

1044
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,520
这是竞技场上的人与批评家的对抗。

1045
00:49:28,060 --> 00:49:31,960
竞技场上的人与监管者的对抗让事情变得更加平淡。

1046
00:49:35,090 --> 00:49:38,180
好吧，让我不仅要问疯狂，还要问残酷。

1047
00:49:38,780 --> 00:49:42,660
您已经写了一篇关于史蒂夫·乔布斯的报道。

1048
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,380
有人告诉你要问的大问题是，

1049
00:49:46,060 --> 00:49:47,920
他有必要这么刻薄吗

1050
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,900
如此粗暴和残酷，

1051
00:49:50,420 --> 00:49:51,500
这么看戏上瘾？

1052
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,960
史蒂夫·乔布斯的这个答案是什么？

1053
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,300
他有必要这么残忍吗？

1054
00:49:56,660 --> 00:49:57,220
对于工作，

1055
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:00,080
我在报告结束时问，

1056
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,060
因为他一开始就是这么说的

1057
00:50:02,820 --> 00:50:04,800
我认为我们正在推出

1058
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:08,040
iPad 2 可能就是如此。

1059
00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:10,520
史蒂夫消瘦是因为

1060
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:12,300
他病了。

1061
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:13,980
所以我对瓦斯说，

1062
00:50:14,020 --> 00:50:15,100
你的问题的答案是什么？

1063
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,400
他说，好吧，如果我一直在经营苹果公司，

1064
00:50:18,180 --> 00:50:19,500
我会对每个人都好一点。

1065
00:50:19,660 --> 00:50:20,760
大家都被困住了。

1066
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:21,940
我们一直像一家人一样。

1067
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,220
然后我不知道你是否知道瓦斯

1068
00:50:24,220 --> 00:50:25,100
他就像一只泰迪熊。

1069
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:26,560
他停顿了一下，微笑着说道：

1070
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:28,080
但如果我一直在经营苹果公司

1071
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,300
我认为我们不会开发 Macintosh 或 iPhone。

1072
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,780
嗯是的，

1073
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:35,120
你必须

1074
00:50:36,540 --> 00:50:37,640
有时

1075
00:50:38,620 --> 00:50:39,260
粗暴一些。

1076
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,300
乔布斯对我说了同样的话，

1077
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:44,380
他说，

1078
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,080
像你这样的人喜欢戴天鹅绒手套。

1079
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,240
现在我不知道我是否经常戴天鹅绒手套，

1080
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:52,400
但你喜欢人们喜欢你

1081
00:50:52,420 --> 00:50:53,920
你喜欢说甜言蜜语，

1082
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:54,300
你给事情涂上糖衣。

1083
00:50:54,480 --> 00:51:00,320
他说，我只是一个工人阶级的孩子，我没有那么奢侈。

1084
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:02,780
如果某件事很糟糕，我必须告诉人们它很糟糕。

1085
00:51:03,180 --> 00:51:04,640
或者我有一支由 B 级球员组成的团队。

1086
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:06,280
嗯，马斯克就是这样

1087
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:06,580
以及。

1088
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,400
这又回到了我之前所说的，

1089
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:10,500
是的，

1090
00:51:11,020 --> 00:51:13,040
我可能会穿天鹅绒

1091
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,400
手套，如果我能在我的服饰店找到的话。

1092
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,000
我确实尝试给事情涂上糖衣。

1093
00:51:19,060 --> 00:51:21,400
但当我主持 CNN 时

1094
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:23,820
它需要重新塑造。

1095
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:25,200
它需要被打破。

1096
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,680
它需要炸掉某些东西。

1097
00:51:28,180 --> 00:51:29,840
而我没有这么做。

1098
00:51:31,060 --> 00:51:33,500
对我来说太糟糕了，但这让我意识到，

1099
00:51:33,700 --> 00:51:35,940
好吧，我就写一下能做到这一点的人。

1100
00:51:36,180 --> 00:51:37,880
嗯，那句话，

1101
00:51:38,340 --> 00:51:39,500
我想大概他们两个，

1102
00:51:39,620 --> 00:51:41,440
但埃隆确实说过这样的话

1103
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,380
这是我听过的最愚蠢的事情。

1104
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,400
顺便说一句，我听杰夫·贝佐斯说过这句话。

1105
00:51:47,580 --> 00:51:48,900
我听比尔盖茨这么说过。

1106
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:50,800
我听史蒂夫·乔布斯说过。

1107
00:51:50,940 --> 00:51:53,420
我听史蒂夫·乔布斯说过关于冰沙的事。

1108
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,000
他们把它做成一个完整的水果或其他东西。

1109
00:51:55,660 --> 00:51:59,040
他们经常使用愚蠢这个词。

1110
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:00,660
你知道还有谁用过它吗？

1111
00:52:00,860 --> 00:52:01,500
埃罗尔·马斯克。

1112
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:02,560
他继续烘烤。

1113
00:52:02,780 --> 00:52:04,580
埃隆站在他面前说：

1114
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:05,620
这是最愚蠢的事情。

1115
00:52:05,740 --> 00:52:06,980
你是最愚蠢的人。

1116
00:52:07,180 --> 00:52:08,440
你永远一事无成。

1117
00:52:11,460 --> 00:52:12,640
我不知道。

1118
00:52:13,900 --> 00:52:17,060
正如特斯拉总裁约翰·麦克尼尔所说：

1119
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:19,000
你必须这样吗？

1120
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:20,600
可能不会。

1121
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,340
有很多成功的

1122
00:52:22,380 --> 00:52:24,140
那些更加友善的人，

1123
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:26,040
但

1124
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:32,180
有时是必要的

1125
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,400
更残酷地诚实地说，

1126
00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:37,820
我会说，

1127
00:52:38,540 --> 00:52:44,060
比那些获得年度最佳老板奖杯的人更重要。

1128
00:52:45,140 --> 00:52:46,880
嗯，正如你所说，这种想法

1129
00:52:47,420 --> 00:52:48,840
也确实发出了信号。

1130
00:52:49,300 --> 00:52:51,040
乔布斯的这个想法八位选手，

1131
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:52,720
它确实向每个人发出了一个信号。

1132
00:52:54,220 --> 00:52:56,820
这对所有在场的人来说都是一种鼓励。

1133
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:57,740
正确的。

1134
00:52:57,740 --> 00:52:58,700
Twitter 也发生了这种情况。

1135
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,460
前一天我们去Twitter总部的时候

1136
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,880
接管时，他正在

1137
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:09,420
安德鲁和詹姆斯，他的两个年轻表弟和其他来自

1138
00:53:09,420 --> 00:53:12,200
自动驾驶团队正在检查代码行。

1139
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,500
马斯克本人坐在那儿，开着笔记本电脑

1140
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:15,520
大楼二楼，

1141
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,100
查看 Twitter 工程师编写的代码行。

1142
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:25,240
他们决定解雇其中 85% 的人，因为他们

1143
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:26,100
必须全力以赴。

1144
00:53:26,260 --> 00:53:29,880
这种心理安全和精神休假的概念

1145
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:32,400
他说，远程工作

1146
00:53:32,980 --> 00:53:33,060
任何一个。

1147
00:53:33,620 --> 00:53:33,940
进而

1148
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,500
它出现了，实际上是他的一个，

1149
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:39,400
我认为这是一个

1150
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:45,180
或许是罗斯·诺丁 (Ross Nordine) 的表兄弟想出了让我们别那么粗鲁的主意

1151
00:53:45,180 --> 00:53:46,360
解雇所有这些人。

1152
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,240
我们问问他们，你真的愿意全力以赴吗？

1153
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:50,440
因为这将是硬核的。

1154
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:51,640
这将会很激烈。

1155
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:53,140
你可以选择，

1156
00:53:53,340 --> 00:53:55,900
但在今晚午夜之前，我们希望您选中此框。

1157
00:53:56,580 --> 00:53:59,000
我是铁杆，全力以赴，我会亲自到场，

1158
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,880
我会工作，你知道，否则那不适合我。

1159
00:54:02,180 --> 00:54:03,420
我有一个家庭，

1160
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:04,300
我得到了工作平衡

1161
00:54:05,620 --> 00:54:08,460
你会遇到不同类型的人

1162
00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:09,620
他们人生的各个阶段。

1163
00:54:09,780 --> 00:54:13,900
当我二十多岁的时候，我更加顽固一点，当我

1164
00:54:13,900 --> 00:54:15,860
你知道，我五十多岁了。

1165
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:16,520
是的。

1166
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:17,420
你写了这个

1167
00:54:18,020 --> 00:54:19,460
实际上真是个好主意，

1168
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:20,860
有两个营地

1169
00:54:21,420 --> 00:54:23,100
你会发现，

1170
00:54:23,180 --> 00:54:25,100
我不知道，我想知道这有多真实。

1171
00:54:25,100 --> 00:54:26,340
听起来确实如此。

1172
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:27,880
你可以直接问人家，

1173
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:28,980
你在哪个营地？

1174
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,980
你是那种看重自己的人吗

1175
00:54:32,100 --> 00:54:34,860
喜欢熬夜到凌晨两点的人

1176
00:54:35,180 --> 00:54:36,240
编程还是什么？

1177
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,160
或者你看到了 quote unquote 的价值，

1178
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:40,740
你知道，关于生活，

1179
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:42,680
工作与生活的平衡，诸如此类的事情。

1180
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:43,420
和

1181
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:44,340
这真有趣。

1182
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:44,900
我是说，

1183
00:54:46,260 --> 00:54:47,000
就像你可以的那样

1184
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,780
人们可能将自己分为不同的人生阶段

1185
00:54:50,780 --> 00:54:55,700
你可以直接问他们，这对于处于特定阶段的某些公司来说是有意义的

1186
00:54:55,740 --> 00:54:56,820
发展成这样，

1187
00:54:56,820 --> 00:54:57,980
我们只想要铁杆人。

1188
00:54:57,980 --> 00:54:58,300
或者某些球队。

1189
00:54:58,500 --> 00:54:59,700
它甚至不必是一家完整的公司。

1190
00:55:00,380 --> 00:55:00,980
你是对的。

1191
00:55:01,580 --> 00:55:03,660
这又回到了我刚才所说的规则。

1192
00:55:04,020 --> 00:55:06,260
第一个秘密是有点知道

1193
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:11,680
你自己显然来自柏拉图，一切都来自柏拉图和苏格拉底，

1194
00:55:13,020 --> 00:55:15,220
但是，并且

1195
00:55:16,020 --> 00:55:18,000
决定我人生的这个阶段。

1196
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,260
我是吗，我想参加一场彻夜的黑客马拉松吗

1197
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:23,860
并改变世界？

1198
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:24,600
或者我想要

1199
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,040
带来智慧和稳定，

1200
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:28,380
但也有平衡？

1201
00:55:29,060 --> 00:55:30,500
我认为拥有它很好

1202
00:55:30,690 --> 00:55:33,260
不同的公司有不同的风格。

1203
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,280
问题是 Twitter 几乎处于一个极端

1204
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:45,360
设有瑜伽馆和心理健康休息日，并将心理安全作为其中一项

1205
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,940
人们永远不应该感到心理受到威胁的咒语。

1206
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,560
还有他，我记得他那苦涩的笑声

1207
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:53,240
当他不断听到这个词时，他就被释放了。

1208
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:55,800
他说，不，我喜欢硬核这个词。

1209
00:55:56,260 --> 00:55:57,200
我喜欢强度。

1210
00:55:57,660 --> 00:56:03,060
我喜欢将强烈的紧迫感作为我们的经营原则。

1211
00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:05,140
嗯，是的，有些人

1212
00:56:05,140 --> 00:56:05,760
方式也是如此。

1213
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,820
因此，了解您是谁并了解您想要建立什么类型的团队。

1214
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,840
与心理安全和到处都有太多的鸟相对。

1215
00:56:13,340 --> 00:56:13,760
哦耶。

1216
00:56:14,020 --> 00:56:17,160
很多时候，马斯克做了一些事，我却走了，到底是什么？

1217
00:56:18,140 --> 00:56:19,340
其中正在发生变化

1218
00:56:19,340 --> 00:56:21,140
Twitter 这个名字和除掉鸟儿。

1219
00:56:21,260 --> 00:56:21,840
我说，嘿伙计，

1220
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:23,760
它在这个品牌上投入了大量资金。

1221
00:56:24,580 --> 00:56:25,700
但当我看着他的时候，

1222
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,740
他想，好吧，这些可爱的小鸟以推特的名义发推文，

1223
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,200
这不是硬核。

1224
00:56:34,380 --> 00:56:35,420
这并不激烈。

1225
00:56:35,980 --> 00:56:38,040
所以无论好坏，

1226
00:56:38,660 --> 00:56:40,120
我认为他正在采取行动

1227
00:56:41,140 --> 00:56:47,080
与发布硬核内容的人一起进入硬核领域，

1228
00:56:47,580 --> 00:56:49,460
与持有顽固观点的人在一起。

1229
00:56:50,380 --> 00:56:50,940
它不是

1230
00:56:52,060 --> 00:56:54,140
有礼貌的

1231
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:59,720
蓝色格子的婴儿围栏

1232
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,180
受膏精英。

1233
00:57:04,140 --> 00:57:05,600
我想，好吧，这会很糟糕。

1234
00:57:05,620 --> 00:57:06,700
整个事情将会崩溃。

1235
00:57:06,780 --> 00:57:08,300
嗯，确实遇到了问题，

1236
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:14,340
但它的核心强度也意味着那里会发生新的事情。

1237
00:57:14,460 --> 00:57:21,920
所以，埃隆·马斯克不喜欢鸟儿叽叽喳喳、叽叽喳喳的声音，并说：

1238
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:23,660
我想要更硬核的东西。

1239
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:30,140
正如您在提到前任 Twitter 首席执行官时所写的那样，

1240
00:57:30,620 --> 00:57:34,660
埃隆说 Twitter 需要一条喷火龙。

1241
00:57:35,620 --> 00:57:38,520
我认为这是一个很好的机会

1242
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:43,400
正如您所写的那样，回顾一下 Twitter 传奇中一些令人难忘的时刻

1243
00:57:43,740 --> 00:57:44,340
在你的书中，

1244
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:50,680
从考虑收购的初期到收购的整个过程

1245
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,100
正如您提到的，工程团队的详细信息。

1246
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,830
那么，在 2022 年初，

1247
00:57:57,300 --> 00:57:58,620
他昂首阔步，

1248
00:57:59,180 --> 00:57:59,800
但正如我们所说，

1249
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:00,720
他是个戏剧迷。

1250
00:58:00,900 --> 00:58:02,080
他不喜欢鬼魂。

1251
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,540
特斯拉售出了 100 万辆汽车。

1252
00:58:05,740 --> 00:58:07,700
我认为33个助推器，

1253
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,220
猎鹰 9 号已被发射升空

1254
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:13,980
过去几个月安全着陆。

1255
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:20,940
他是地球上最富有的人，也是《时代》年度人物。

1256
00:58:21,700 --> 00:58:22,280
但是，

1257
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,240
他说，我还是想把所有的筹码都放回桌面上。

1258
00:58:27,300 --> 00:58:28,560
我想继续冒险。

1259
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:30,520
我不想去品尝那些东西。

1260
00:58:31,060 --> 00:58:32,360
他卖掉了所有的房子。

1261
00:58:33,180 --> 00:58:36,320
于是他开始秘密购买 Twitter 的股票。

1262
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,780
一月、二月、三月在某个时间点公开。

1263
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:42,520
我不知道是否应该声明。

1264
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:45,800
我们在奥斯汀

1265
00:58:46,620 --> 00:58:48,600
在夹层的 Gigafactory。

1266
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:50,960
他试图弄清楚，

1267
00:58:51,140 --> 00:58:52,200
好吧，我该去哪里？

1268
00:58:53,140 --> 00:58:55,300
而当时，四月初，

1269
00:58:55,940 --> 00:58:59,880
他们将为他提供一个董事会席位，而他将达成一项停顿协议

1270
00:58:59,980 --> 00:59:01,680
并停在 10% 左右。

1271
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:04,440
现在请记住，我们当时就站在那里。

1272
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:05,500
这是卢克·诺齐克，

1273
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:06,580
你很熟悉的人，

1274
00:59:07,020 --> 00:59:07,920
肯·哈利，

1275
00:59:08,300 --> 00:59:10,600
他的一些朋友就在这个夹层楼。

1276
00:59:11,340 --> 00:59:12,620
整个下午然后

1277
00:59:12,620 --> 00:59:14,260
直到晚上吃晚饭时

1278
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,000
就像，我们应该这样做吗？

1279
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:18,600
我什么也没说。

1280
00:59:18,660 --> 00:59:19,740
我只是一个观察者。

1281
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:21,180
但其他人都在说，

1282
00:59:21,460 --> 00:59:23,860
打扰一下，你为什么想拥有 Twitter？

1283
00:59:24,940 --> 00:59:25,900
还有他的儿子格里芬

1284
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:27,340
晚餐时加入。

1285
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,480
而梅，出于某种原因，也在城里。

1286
00:59:30,380 --> 00:59:32,960
正如大家所说，不，我们不使用 Twitter。

1287
00:59:32,980 --> 00:59:34,000
为什么要这么做？

1288
00:59:34,660 --> 00:59:36,060
梅说，好吧，我使用推特。

1289
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:37,680
这几乎就像，好吧，

1290
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,320
人口统计数据是与我同龄或与梅同龄的人。

1291
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:43,580
所以看起来

1292
00:59:43,580 --> 00:59:45,460
就好像他不打算追求它一样。

1293
00:59:45,700 --> 00:59:47,160
他们为他提供了一个董事会席位。

1294
00:59:48,860 --> 00:59:51,780
然后他就去了

1295
00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:56,240
夏威夷到拉里·埃里森的家，

1296
00:59:56,660 --> 00:59:57,780
他有时会使用它。

1297
00:59:58,280 --> 00:59:59,260
他正在和一个朋友见面，

1298
00:59:59,420 --> 01:00:01,060
安吉拉·贝塞特，演员。

1299
01:00:01,940 --> 01:00:05,180
而不是享受三天的假期，

1300
01:00:06,060 --> 01:00:07,640
他刚刚变得充满活力

1301
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,780
并开始发送短信，

1302
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,620
包括喷火龙一号。

1303
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:13,960
我认为

1304
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:19,140
他多次用这句话来表示帕拉格不是那个会使用 Twitter 的人

1305
01:00:19,660 --> 01:00:20,440
到一个新的水平。

1306
01:00:21,180 --> 01:00:23,320
然后当他到达温哥华时

1307
01:00:23,540 --> 01:00:24,740
格莱姆斯遇见他的地方，

1308
01:00:25,260 --> 01:00:27,420
他们通宵达旦地玩《Elden Ring》。

1309
01:00:27,820 --> 01:00:29,020
他正在做一场 TED 演讲。

1310
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,060
然后在 5.30 的时候，

1311
01:00:32,060 --> 01:00:33,820
他玩完了《Elden Ring》并且

1312
01:00:33,820 --> 01:00:35,820
发出我已出价的信息。

1313
01:00:37,060 --> 01:00:38,440
即使他回来后，

1314
01:00:39,020 --> 01:00:40,320
人们正在试图干预

1315
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,460
并说，对不起，你为什么这么做？

1316
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,040
所以这是一段艰难的时期

1317
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,600
交易结束时的四月和十月。

1318
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:51,200
人们总是问我，

1319
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:53,000
好吧，他想退出这笔交易吗？

1320
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:53,520
我说，

1321
01:00:53,900 --> 01:00:56,200
你在一天中的什么时间谈论哪个埃隆？

1322
01:00:56,620 --> 01:00:58,140
因为早上会有时候

1323
01:00:58,720 --> 01:00:59,640
当他说，哦，

1324
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:01,420
特拉华州法院将

1325
01:01:01,420 --> 01:01:02,180
强迫我这样做。

1326
01:01:02,220 --> 01:01:02,900
这太糟糕了。

1327
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:04,260
与他的律师交谈。

1328
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:05,320
你可以打赢这个官司。

1329
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:06,380
让我摆脱困境。

1330
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,820
他在奥斯汀会见了三四位投资银行家，

1331
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:15,780
布莱尔·埃夫隆 (Blair Efron) 在 Centerview，鲍勃·斯蒂尔 (Bob Steele) 在 Pirella Weinberg。

1332
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:17,300
他们为他提供了选择。

1333
01:01:17,380 --> 01:01:18,080
你想出去吗？

1334
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:18,940
你想留下来吗？

1335
01:01:18,940 --> 01:01:20,040
您想降低价格吗？

1336
01:01:21,300 --> 01:01:22,380
我认为他是

1337
01:01:22,750 --> 01:01:23,200
善变的。

1338
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:26,380
有时他会给我发短信或对我说，

1339
01:01:26,860 --> 01:01:27,900
这会很棒的。

1340
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:29,460
它将成为加速剂

1341
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,580
按照我们 20 年前的想法来做 x.com。

1342
01:01:35,620 --> 01:01:37,180
所以直到他们

1343
01:01:37,180 --> 01:01:39,040
终于在十月初告诉他，

1344
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,040
就在机器人擎天柱揭晓时

1345
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,520
实际上在加州，

1346
01:01:45,820 --> 01:01:46,360
律师说，

1347
01:01:46,420 --> 01:01:49,120
你可能不会赢这个案子，但是

1348
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:51,080
最好完成这笔交易。

1349
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,060
到那时他不仅已经接受了这件事

1350
01:01:55,060 --> 01:01:57,000
有时他对此感到很高兴。

1351
01:01:57,780 --> 01:01:58,560
最终，

1352
01:01:58,940 --> 01:02:01,220
交易将于

1353
01:02:01,980 --> 01:02:04,400
我想周五

1354
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:04,940
早晨。

1355
01:02:04,940 --> 01:02:05,960
我书上有。

1356
01:02:06,580 --> 01:02:10,100
我们周四在那里，他正在四处闲逛，看着

1357
01:02:10,100 --> 01:02:11,740
留下来唤醒 T 恤和

1358
01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:15,900
他们都在使用心理安全术语。

1359
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:18,060
还有他和他的律师

1360
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:21,900
银行家们制定了一项快速平仓计划。

1361
01:02:23,180 --> 01:02:25,020
原因是

1362
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:27,420
如果他们完成交易

1363
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,740
当日市场收盘后，

1364
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:35,300
他可以给帕拉格和另外两个人写一封信，

1365
01:02:35,940 --> 01:02:37,680
解雇他们是有原因的，

1366
01:02:38,300 --> 01:02:40,240
这将是法院必须弄清楚的事情，

1367
01:02:41,660 --> 01:02:43,760
那么他可以节省2亿左右。

1368
01:02:44,100 --> 01:02:45,340
而且既是钱，

1369
01:02:45,500 --> 01:02:46,420
但对他来说有件事，

1370
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:48,280
我不会说原则，但是，

1371
01:02:49,100 --> 01:02:49,260
嘿，

1372
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:51,260
他们在数字上误导了我。

1373
01:02:51,300 --> 01:02:52,820
我是被迫这么做的。

1374
01:02:53,300 --> 01:03:00,380
所以我要尝试一下柔术，并能从他们身上赚到一些钱。

1375
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:01,860
然后当他接手后，

1376
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:03,620
这是一种狂野的场景。

1377
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,440
他试图在三种不同的情况下做出决定

1378
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,960
讨论如何将员工人数减少到原来的 15%。

1379
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:13,260
他决定在平安夜，

1380
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:15,020
他参加完一个会议之后

1381
01:03:15,980 --> 01:03:20,080
他们告诉他我们无法摆脱萨克拉门托的服务器场，因为

1382
01:03:20,780 --> 01:03:22,260
需要冗余。

1383
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:23,680
他说，不，不是。

1384
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:25,900
他要飞往奥斯汀。

1385
01:03:27,260 --> 01:03:28,100
年轻的詹姆斯说，

1386
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:29,220
我们为什么不自己做呢？

1387
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:30,420
他让飞机调转方向

1388
01:03:30,460 --> 01:03:33,120
他们降落在萨克拉门托，他亲自把他们拉出来。

1389
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:34,800
所以这是一个躁狂的时期。

1390
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,620
我们还应该说，在这背后，

1391
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:38,500
有

1392
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:43,180
对也许的持续渴望或考虑

1393
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:44,580
重新开始

1394
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:48,340
公司从零开始建立一家社交媒体公司。

1395
01:03:48,820 --> 01:03:50,080
嗯，金博尔想这么做。

1396
01:03:50,140 --> 01:03:52,960
金博尔在奥斯汀的一家很棒的餐厅，

1397
01:03:53,140 --> 01:03:54,040
午餐时就像，嘿，

1398
01:03:54,860 --> 01:03:55,780
你为什么要买推特？

1399
01:03:56,220 --> 01:03:58,880
让我们从头开始，在区块链上进行。

1400
01:03:59,820 --> 01:04:01,380
现在他花了一段时间，

1401
01:04:01,380 --> 01:04:03,160
你可以以一种或另一种方式争论，

1402
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:08,040
得出区块链不够快的结论

1403
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:12,140
响应时间足以处理十亿条推文

1404
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:13,500
一天左右的时间。

1405
01:04:14,580 --> 01:04:18,360
当他们一直试图让他与萨姆·班克曼·弗里德交谈时，他很生气，

1406
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:19,620
谁想说，

1407
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:21,760
我会投资，但我们必须在区块链上进行。

1408
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:28,720
Kimball 仍然赞成开始一个新的项目并基于区块链进行。

1409
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:31,300
回想起来，

1410
01:04:32,660 --> 01:04:33,100
我认为

1411
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,640
创办一家新媒体公司会更好。

1412
01:04:35,660 --> 01:04:36,900
他不会有行李

1413
01:04:37,620 --> 01:04:38,140
或者

1414
01:04:38,660 --> 01:04:44,240
他现在正在打破 Twitter 的传统。

1415
01:04:44,660 --> 01:04:47,140
但很难拥有

1416
01:04:47,140 --> 01:04:49,660
数百万、数亿、数亿

1417
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,460
真正的用户，而不仅仅是巨魔，

1418
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:55,520
并从头开始

1419
01:04:55,640 --> 01:05:01,860
其他人发现，马其顿和蓝天和线程甚至没有任何线程有底座。

1420
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:03,220
所以这会很困难。

1421
01:05:04,140 --> 01:05:07,330
是的。要以他的方式做到这一点需要

1422
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,020
你写的关于三个火枪手的另一部分

1423
01:05:11,020 --> 01:05:12,020
以及整个工程，

1424
01:05:12,940 --> 01:05:15,600
解雇和引进工程师

1425
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:17,360
尝试变得硬核。

1426
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,040
所以有很多有趣的问题要问，

1427
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:21,700
但水平高，

1428
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:26,980
你能评论一下传奇的那部分吗？

1429
01:05:28,140 --> 01:05:29,240
引进工程师

1430
01:05:29,460 --> 01:05:31,120
看到这里，我们能做什么呢？

1431
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:32,220
正确的。

1432
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:34,920
他请来了工程师并认为

1433
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:38,380
做特斯拉的人有多少，

1434
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,260
完全自动驾驶自动驾驶仪和所有软件

1435
01:05:41,260 --> 01:05:46,240
大约十分之一的人在为 Twitter 开发软件。

1436
01:05:46,380 --> 01:05:47,940
他说，事情不可能如此。

1437
01:05:48,660 --> 01:05:49,080
和

1438
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,280
他在三轮不同的比赛中命中率高达 85%。

1439
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:53,140
第一个是

1440
01:05:54,180 --> 01:05:56,100
只是解雇人，因为

1441
01:05:56,100 --> 01:06:02,060
他们查看了编码，并且有一个来自特斯拉自动驾驶团队的人员进行评分

1442
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:06,140
过去一年左右编写的所有代码。

1443
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,580
然后他解雇了那些不这样做的人

1444
01:06:09,580 --> 01:06:11,760
似乎完全投入或忠诚。

1445
01:06:12,260 --> 01:06:14,220
然后又一轮裁员。

1446
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:19,280
所以在每一步中，

1447
01:06:19,780 --> 01:06:21,320
几乎每个人都说，这就够了。

1448
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:23,240
它会毁掉一些东西。

1449
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:27,080
从他的律师亚历克斯·斯皮罗到贾里德·伯奇尔，

1450
01:06:27,580 --> 01:06:28,480
他就像，哇，哇，哇。

1451
01:06:29,300 --> 01:06:30,940
甚至安德鲁和詹姆斯，

1452
01:06:30,940 --> 01:06:35,440
年轻的表兄弟姐妹们的任务是列出一份名单并找出谁好谁坏，

1453
01:06:35,580 --> 01:06:36,480
说吧，我们已经做得够多了。

1454
01:06:36,500 --> 01:06:38,440
我们将会遇到真正的麻烦。

1455
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,340
他们是部分正确的。

1456
01:06:41,620 --> 01:06:45,460
我的意思是，服务有些下降，

1457
01:06:46,460 --> 01:06:46,580
但

1458
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:50,300
还没有我一半时间使用的服务的一半多。

1459
01:06:51,060 --> 01:06:51,260
和

1460
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:53,940
我每天早上醒来

1461
01:06:54,900 --> 01:06:57,060
点击应用程序，好吧，仍然存在。

1462
01:06:57,420 --> 01:06:57,780
你怎么认为？

1463
01:06:57,780 --> 01:06:58,540
是不是太多了？

1464
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:04,920
我认为他有一个我们之前提到的算法，从质疑每个要求开始，

1465
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:07,160
但这取决于他删除，删除，

1466
01:07:07,460 --> 01:07:07,600
删除，

1467
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:08,980
删除每个部分。

1468
01:07:09,660 --> 01:07:13,080
那么一个推论是如果你

1469
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:16,420
最后不要添加回删除内容的 20%，

1470
01:07:17,020 --> 01:07:19,060
那么你在第一轮中删除的还不够多

1471
01:07:19,340 --> 01:07:20,140
因为你太胆怯了。

1472
01:07:21,180 --> 01:07:22,460
嗯，所以你问我，

1473
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:23,740
他做得太过分了吗？

1474
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:26,060
他可能超额完成了20%

1475
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:28,480
这是他的公式。

1476
01:07:28,980 --> 01:07:32,780
他们现在可能正在尝试雇用人员来维持业务。

1477
01:07:34,300 --> 01:07:39,260
但这向被重新雇用的人或仍然留在那里的人发出了强烈的信号。

1478
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:40,400
四月的想法。

1479
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:48,140
是的。史蒂夫·乔布斯和许多其他伟大领袖的感受，当然还有贝佐斯，当然还有微软早期的比尔·盖茨，

1480
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:51,280
这是硬核的，只有A级玩家。

1481
01:07:52,180 --> 01:07:54,660
那么你认为埃隆的成功有多大呢？

1482
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:59,340
埃隆和史蒂夫·乔布斯的成功在于雇佣和管理优秀的团队。

1483
01:07:59,940 --> 01:08:01,600
当我有一次问史蒂夫·乔布斯时，

1484
01:08:01,700 --> 01:08:03,800
你创造过的最好的产品是什么？

1485
01:08:04,620 --> 01:08:05,480
我以为他会说

1486
01:08:06,460 --> 01:08:09,800
也许是 Macintosh，也许是 iPhone。

1487
01:08:10,620 --> 01:08:12,200
他说，不，那些产品很难。

1488
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,320
我创造过的最好的东西就是团队

1489
01:08:16,020 --> 01:08:17,500
制造这些产品的。

1490
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:19,920
这就是创建团队的困难部分。

1491
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:22,420
从约翰尼·艾维到蒂姆·库克，他做到了

1492
01:08:23,740 --> 01:08:24,580
和埃迪 Q 和

1493
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:25,680
菲尔·席勒.

1494
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:31,080
埃隆在引进人才方面做得很好。

1495
01:08:31,300 --> 01:08:32,020
格温·肖特韦尔,

1496
01:08:32,660 --> 01:08:33,220
明显地，

1497
01:08:33,900 --> 01:08:36,040
琳达·艾卡里诺，她可以

1498
01:08:36,440 --> 01:08:39,200
渡过当前的危机。

1499
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,780
当然，像 Mark Jankos 这样的 SpaceX 明星人物也是如此。

1500
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:52,440
然后在特斯拉，像 Drew Bacalhino、Lars Marravey 和 Tom Zhu 等人。

1501
01:08:54,440 --> 01:08:57,700
他不太像一个团队

1502
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,100
正如本杰明·富兰克林所说，合作者，

1503
01:09:00,660 --> 01:09:01,280
顺便说一下，谁

1504
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:02,900
这是有史以来最好的团队，

1505
01:09:03,440 --> 01:09:04,140
这是创始人。

1506
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,720
你必须有像杰斐逊和麦迪逊这样非常聪明的人

1507
01:09:09,070 --> 01:09:15,520
像约翰·亚当斯和他的表弟塞缪尔这样充满激情的人，还有像华盛顿这样正直的人。

1508
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:21,040
但你还需要一个本杰明·富兰克林，他可以将每个人聚集在一起并组建一个团队

1509
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,780
使他们相互妥协。

1510
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,740
马斯克就像一块磁石，吸引着优秀的人才。

1511
01:09:28,580 --> 01:09:29,020
磁铁，

1512
01:09:29,440 --> 01:09:29,860
有趣的。

1513
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:35,940
但招聘的优先顺序是基于卓越，

1514
01:09:36,300 --> 01:09:37,480
可信度和动力。

1515
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:39,560
这些是您在整本书中描述的内容。

1516
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:41,700
我是说，有一个漂亮的

1517
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:46,040
具体而严谨

1518
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:50,040
招聘所依据的一系列想法。

1519
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:50,920
哦耶。

1520
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:52,500
而且他有一个非常好的，

1521
01:09:53,460 --> 01:09:55,880
蜘蛛侠，直觉

1522
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:57,980
只是看着人

1523
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:01,580
我的意思是，谁可以不看它们，而是研究它们

1524
01:10:02,100 --> 01:10:02,740
谁可以是好人。

1525
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:05,120
他的其中一位

1526
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,860
经营方式

1527
01:10:09,700 --> 01:10:11,680
这就是他所说的越级会议。

1528
01:10:12,340 --> 01:10:15,300
让我们以一个非常具体的东西为例，比如猛禽发动机，

1529
01:10:15,380 --> 01:10:17,800
它为星舰提供动力。

1530
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:19,500
但进展并不顺利。

1531
01:10:19,540 --> 01:10:21,080
它看起来像意大利面条丛

1532
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:22,500
它将很难制造。

1533
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:24,360
他摆脱了人们

1534
01:10:24,980 --> 01:10:26,300
谁负责该团队。

1535
01:10:27,340 --> 01:10:33,080
我记得他花了几个月的时间做他所谓的越级，

1536
01:10:33,300 --> 01:10:38,460
这意味着与其与猛禽队的直接下属会面，

1537
01:10:38,860 --> 01:10:42,180
他会见比他们低一级的人。

1538
01:10:43,180 --> 01:10:45,920
所以他会跳过一个级别并与他们会面。

1539
01:10:46,620 --> 01:10:49,740
他说，就是这样，我只是问他们在做什么。

1540
01:10:49,820 --> 01:10:51,280
我用问题来训练他们。

1541
01:10:51,940 --> 01:10:54,900
他说，这就是我确定谁会出现的方法。

1542
01:10:55,500 --> 01:10:56,900
他说特别困难。

1543
01:10:57,060 --> 01:10:59,520
我参加那些会议是因为人们都戴着口罩。

1544
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:01,220
那是在新冠疫情最严重的时期。

1545
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:05,620
他说这对他来说有点困难，因为他必须

1546
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:06,980
获取输入。

1547
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:11,300
但我小时候看过《辫子》

1548
01:11:12,100 --> 01:11:14,680
名叫雅各布·麦肯齐（Jacob McKenzie），他在书中，

1549
01:11:15,380 --> 01:11:17,660
坐在那里，他有点像你。

1550
01:11:18,380 --> 01:11:21,240
工程思维的表达方式有点单调。

1551
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:26,060
马斯克会问一个问题，然后给出一个答案，答案会非常好。

1552
01:11:26,060 --> 01:11:28,300
很直接，他也没有慌张。

1553
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:29,500
他就是这样的。

1554
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:31,460
马斯克有一天说

1555
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:33,400
凌晨3点给他打电话。

1556
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:35,200
好吧，我不会说凌晨 3 点，而是说午夜之后

1557
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:36,860
说，你还在吗？

1558
01:11:37,260 --> 01:11:38,640
杰克说，是的，我还在工作。

1559
01:11:39,060 --> 01:11:42,680
他说，好吧，我会让你负责猛禽队的团队建设。

1560
01:11:43,700 --> 01:11:45,300
那就像

1561
01:11:45,900 --> 01:11:46,940
一个很大的惊喜。

1562
01:11:47,500 --> 01:11:50,520
但雅各布·麦肯齐现在已经得到了 Raptor 的一个版本

1563
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,470
当他们每周至少为他打造一个时，他们就非常棒了。

1564
01:11:54,260 --> 01:11:57,680
这就是他的才华所在，

1565
01:11:58,380 --> 01:12:03,940
马斯克具有寻找合适人才并提拔他们的才能。

1566
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:05,560
就是这样。

1567
01:12:05,740 --> 01:12:07,240
并以某种方式推广它

1568
01:12:08,060 --> 01:12:09,700
就好像球在这里一样

1569
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:10,720
在这里抓住。

1570
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:11,420
是啊是啊。

1571
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:13,100
然后你就跟着它跑。

1572
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:18,340
我与不少来自 Model X 的人进行过交流，

1573
01:12:19,460 --> 01:12:20,320
整个过程中，

1574
01:12:20,780 --> 01:12:21,340
那里的人们，

1575
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:22,540
你知道，从纸面上看，情况似乎并非如此。

1576
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:26,120
能够运行这个东西并且他们运行得非常成功。

1577
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:27,140
而他却做错了。

1578
01:12:27,340 --> 01:12:30,340
有时他在太阳能屋顶方面的记录很糟糕

1579
01:12:31,020 --> 01:12:31,670
分配。

1580
01:12:32,480 --> 01:12:34,260
布莱恩·道（Brian Dow）是一个很棒的人。

1581
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:35,680
我真的很喜欢他。

1582
01:12:36,300 --> 01:12:39,840
当他们在内华达州进行电池工厂增产时，

1583
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:43,880
马斯克解雇了两三个人，其中就有布莱恩·道。

1584
01:12:44,260 --> 01:12:45,580
可以做，可以做，可以做。

1585
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:47,540
他彻夜不眠，升职并负责管理公司。

1586
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:52,640
最后，马斯克通过了两三个人来管理太阳能屋顶部门。

1587
01:12:53,380 --> 01:12:54,740
最后打电话给布莱恩·道。

1588
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,060
我坐在马斯克位于博卡奇卡的房子里，那个小小的房子

1589
01:12:58,760 --> 01:12:59,600
他有两间卧室。

1590
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:04,160
他向布莱恩·道提供了管理太阳能屋顶的工作。

1591
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:08,240
你知道，布莱恩，好吧，可以，可以。

1592
01:13:09,060 --> 01:13:14,180
马斯克有两三次坚持要求他们安装太阳能

1593
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:16,760
博卡奇卡的其中一栋房屋的屋顶。

1594
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:19,760
这是德克萨斯州南端的这个小村庄。

1595
01:13:21,020 --> 01:13:21,880
而在深夜，

1596
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:25,140
我是说，我得靠这些爬到屋顶

1597
01:13:25,380 --> 01:13:27,400
梯子并站在这个尖顶屋顶上

1598
01:13:27,940 --> 01:13:29,640
正如马斯克所说，

1599
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:31,900
为什么我们需要四个螺丝

1600
01:13:31,900 --> 01:13:33,660
把这条单腿放进去？

1601
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:37,220
布莱恩只是大汗淋漓地做着一切。

1602
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:41,480
但几个月后进展并不顺利，

1603
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:44,060
马斯克刚刚解雇了他。

1604
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:46,180
所以我总是努力学习，

1605
01:13:46,820 --> 01:13:50,460
是什么让那些留下来的人茁壮成长？

1606
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:52,400
那里有什么教训？

1607
01:13:52,460 --> 01:13:52,900
你怎么认为？

1608
01:13:53,340 --> 01:13:57,220
嗯，我认为这是像安迪·克雷布斯或其他人一样的自知之明。

1609
01:13:58,160 --> 01:13:58,600
他们说，

1610
01:13:59,980 --> 01:14:00,600
我是铁杆。

1611
01:14:00,780 --> 01:14:04,560
我真的很想拥有一枚火箭前往火星，这比其他任何事情都重要。

1612
01:14:06,020 --> 01:14:07,380
其中一个人，

1613
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:09,240
我认为是蒂姆·泽曼

1614
01:14:09,380 --> 01:14:10,780
我希望当他听到这句话的时候

1615
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:12,440
我正在为他找到合适的人

1616
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:14,440
谁花了时间。

1617
01:14:14,440 --> 01:14:17,940
它正在为特斯拉自动驾驶仪工作，而且非常激烈。

1618
01:14:17,940 --> 01:14:20,620
他请了一段时间假，然后去了另一家公司。

1619
01:14:21,060 --> 01:14:23,380
他说，我在特斯拉已经精疲力尽了，

1620
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:25,940
但后来我在下一个地方感到无聊。

1621
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:26,680
所以我打电话说，

1622
01:14:27,260 --> 01:14:28,820
我认为是特斯拉的阿肖克，

1623
01:14:28,860 --> 01:14:29,820
说，我可以回来吗？

1624
01:14:29,860 --> 01:14:30,440
他说，当然。

1625
01:14:30,440 --> 01:14:32,580
他说，我了解了自己。

1626
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:34,400
我宁愿精疲力尽也不愿无聊。

1627
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:36,000
这是一条很好的路线。

1628
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:39,060
你能再坚持一下吗

1629
01:14:39,740 --> 01:14:41,260
三个之一

1630
01:14:41,260 --> 01:14:43,380
就卓越而言，您似乎很感兴趣，

1631
01:14:43,700 --> 01:14:44,660
可信度和动力？

1632
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:45,840
你认为哪一个

1633
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:48,380
是最重要也是最难达到的？

1634
01:14:48,540 --> 01:14:50,100
可信度是一件有趣的事情。

1635
01:14:51,100 --> 01:14:52,880
你是骑还是死之类的事情？

1636
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:53,860
是的。

1637
01:14:54,220 --> 01:14:56,940
我认为尤其是在接管 Twitter 时，

1638
01:14:57,060 --> 01:15:00,280
他认为那里有一半的人不忠诚，但他错了。

1639
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:02,680
大约三分之二的人不忠诚，而不仅仅是一半。

1640
01:15:03,740 --> 01:15:06,040
问题是我们如何清除这些？

1641
01:15:06,220 --> 01:15:09,600
他做了一些事并组建了行刑队

1642
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:13,180
我称之为“火枪手”，我想这是我给他们起的昵称，

1643
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:15,400
这是年轻的表兄弟姐妹

1644
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:16,740
和另外两三个人。

1645
01:15:17,480 --> 01:15:18,900
他让他们查看 Slack 消息

1646
01:15:19,540 --> 01:15:20,560
这些人已经发帖了。

1647
01:15:20,820 --> 01:15:22,040
Twitter 上的每个人都发布了

1648
01:15:22,780 --> 01:15:24,980
他们查看了数百条 Slack 消息。

1649
01:15:25,440 --> 01:15:29,040
如果有人在内部 Slack 上发帖，

1650
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:33,000
那个混蛋，埃隆·马斯克，将会接管，而我

1651
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:35,740
害怕他是个疯子什么的

1652
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:37,560
他们将是

1653
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:41,200
列在名单上是因为他们想要全心全意的忠诚。

1654
01:15:42,060 --> 01:15:48,580
他们没有查看私人 Slack 消息，我猜那些在公司 Slack 上发帖的人

1655
01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:52,920
董事会应该知道您的公司可以查看它们。

1656
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:56,360
但这比我会做的更多

1657
01:15:56,360 --> 01:15:57,540
或者大多数人都会这么做。

1658
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:01,500
这是为了找出谁是坚定的忠诚者。

1659
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:03,440
我认为主要是这样的

1660
01:16:04,100 --> 01:16:04,600
在推特上。

1661
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:08,020
他不会坐在 SpaceX 里说谁对我忠诚。

1662
01:16:09,540 --> 01:16:12,040
在其他地方，

1663
01:16:13,380 --> 01:16:17,700
这是卓越的，但这是理所当然的。

1664
01:16:18,300 --> 01:16:20,240
每个人都像马克·扬科萨 (Marc Jancosa)，

1665
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:21,260
只是聪明地鞭打。

1666
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:23,800
这是你的铁杆和全力以赴，

1667
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:25,780
特别是如果你必须转向这个

1668
01:16:26,740 --> 01:16:30,280
德克萨斯州南端一个名叫博卡奇卡 (Boca Chica) 的小镇的沙嘴，

1669
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:32,660
你必须全力以赴。

1670
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:33,240
是的。

1671
01:16:33,660 --> 01:16:35,900
这就是驱动器，最后一块。

1672
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:38,820
你，在合作方面，

1673
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:40,500
有史以来最伟大的球队之一，

1674
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:41,260
本·富兰克林.

1675
01:16:41,260 --> 01:16:41,940
我喜欢。

1676
01:16:42,740 --> 01:16:43,560
我以为是披头士乐队

1677
01:16:43,740 --> 01:16:44,880
但本·富兰克林相当不错。

1678
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:46,080
哦，不，不，不。

1679
01:16:46,120 --> 01:16:46,960
对不起。

1680
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:47,160
是的。

1681
01:16:47,220 --> 01:16:48,100
很抱歉冒犯了你这么多。

1682
01:16:48,140 --> 01:16:50,400
读宪法，读修道院路。

1683
01:16:50,620 --> 01:16:51,260
看看艾比路。

1684
01:16:51,440 --> 01:16:53,060
他们都很好，但他们处于不同的联盟。

1685
01:16:53,180 --> 01:16:53,920
是的，不同的联赛。

1686
01:16:55,030 --> 01:16:58,680
本·富兰克林想到的众多事情之一是

1687
01:16:59,260 --> 01:17:00,560
令人难以置信的时间管理。

1688
01:17:01,850 --> 01:17:04,920
有什么可以说的吗

1689
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:08,920
本·富兰克林及有关

1690
01:17:09,540 --> 01:17:10,080
史蒂夫·乔布斯？

1691
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:12,760
我认为埃隆有趣的是，正如你所写，

1692
01:17:13,820 --> 01:17:15,020
经营六家公司，

1693
01:17:16,420 --> 01:17:19,440
取决于你有多吃惊，因为这是自己的事，我不知道。

1694
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:24,500
您对这些人的时间管理有何评价？

1695
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:29,900
马斯克的做法堪称独一无二。

1696
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:31,080
首先，

1697
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:35,500
史蒂夫·乔布斯不得不经营皮克斯和苹果一段时间，

1698
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:36,680
但马斯克，

1699
01:17:37,900 --> 01:17:45,020
每隔几个小时，他的思维就会从如何植入神经连接芯片以及将会发生什么转变。

1700
01:17:45,020 --> 01:17:49,620
将其植入大脑的机器人是什么样子以及我们可以让它移动多快，

1701
01:17:50,440 --> 01:17:51,020
进而

1702
01:17:51,580 --> 01:17:53,140
猛禽上的隔热罩

1703
01:17:53,660 --> 01:17:54,120
或者

1704
01:17:54,860 --> 01:17:55,640
切换到

1705
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:57,320
模仿人类，

1706
01:17:57,760 --> 01:17:58,920
机器学习，全自驱动。

1707
01:17:59,820 --> 01:18:02,640
推特董事会的当晚

1708
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:04,900
同意该交易，

1709
01:18:05,660 --> 01:18:07,440
这在全世界范围内都是巨大的。

1710
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:08,500
我相信你还记得，

1711
01:18:08,740 --> 01:18:10,780
就像马斯克收购 Twitter 一样。

1712
01:18:11,380 --> 01:18:12,340
那不是交易结束的时候。

1713
01:18:12,420 --> 01:18:13,040
那是当

1714
01:18:13,670 --> 01:18:15,520
推特接受了他的提议。

1715
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:17,140
我想，好吧，

1716
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:19,000
但后来他走了

1717
01:18:19,660 --> 01:18:20,300
前往博卡奇卡,

1718
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:21,600
到德克萨斯州南部，

1719
01:18:22,700 --> 01:18:26,200
并花时间固定，

1720
01:18:26,620 --> 01:18:27,900
如果我没记错的话

1721
01:18:28,460 --> 01:18:30,800
猛禽发动机中的一个阀门

1722
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:32,380
存在甲烷泄漏问题，

1723
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:37,420
以及可能的解决方法是什么。

1724
01:18:38,300 --> 01:18:40,420
那个房间里的所有工程师，

1725
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:43,000
我假设，正在思考，

1726
01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:44,500
这家伙刚买了 Twitter，

1727
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:45,420
我们应该说些什么吗

1728
01:18:46,300 --> 01:18:50,860
然后他和 Kimball 一起去路边的一家酒吧

1729
01:18:51,780 --> 01:18:53,420
（布朗斯维尔）

1730
01:18:53,940 --> 01:18:58,140
他只是坐在前面听音乐，没有人注意到他真的在那里。

1731
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:04,220
在某种程度上，这是他的优点之一，也是他的缺点之一

1732
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:06,340
是在某一天，

1733
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:08,100
地狱

1734
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:10,740
连续聚焦，

1735
01:19:11,100 --> 01:19:13,580
顺序地处理许多不同的事情。

1736
01:19:14,140 --> 01:19:19,240
他会担心上传视频

1737
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,400
登录 x.com 或支付系统，

1738
01:19:22,740 --> 01:19:24,500
然后立即切换

1739
01:19:25,100 --> 01:19:26,620
某些问题

1740
01:19:26,620 --> 01:19:34,140
美国联邦航空局 (FAA) 授予星舰许可或如何与星链 (Starlink) 和中央情报局 (CIA) 打交道。

1741
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:37,500
当他专注于这些事情时

1742
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:41,200
你不能分散他的注意力。

1743
01:19:41,440 --> 01:19:43,460
他好像也没有想到

1744
01:19:44,020 --> 01:19:48,380
处理星链问题，但我也必须担心特斯拉的决定

1745
01:19:48,980 --> 01:19:50,780
价值 25,000 美元的新车。

1746
01:19:51,660 --> 01:19:54,000
现在，他会在这些会议之间，

1747
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:56,380
处理信息，

1748
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:57,760
然后发泄一下。

1749
01:19:58,600 --> 01:19:59,380
无论好坏，

1750
01:19:59,460 --> 01:20:00,500
他发泄了

1751
01:20:01,620 --> 01:20:04,940
要么在多面体中扮演朋友，要么

1752
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:06,620
发布一些推文，

1753
01:20:06,980 --> 01:20:09,220
这往往不是一件健康的事情

1754
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:12,160
但这对他来说是一种释放。

1755
01:20:13,830 --> 01:20:16,360
我曾经说过他是一位出色的多任务处理者

1756
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:17,700
那是一个错误。

1757
01:20:18,260 --> 01:20:19,080
人们纠正了我。

1758
01:20:19,440 --> 01:20:20,720
他是一个连续任务者，

1759
01:20:21,580 --> 01:20:25,280
这意味着在一个小时内高度专注于一项任务，

1760
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:29,240
几乎有一个，他们叫它什么，

1761
01:20:29,360 --> 01:20:32,360
在餐馆里，他们会给你一种味觉清洁剂。

1762
01:20:32,700 --> 01:20:34,600
他做了一些味觉清洁剂

1763
01:20:34,990 --> 01:20:37,640
Polytopia，然后专注于下一个任务。

1764
01:20:38,220 --> 01:20:40,320
有没有一些关于时间管理的智慧

1765
01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:41,860
你可以从中吸取教训吗？

1766
01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:44,340
这些人做了一些事情，而你却说，

1767
01:20:44,780 --> 01:20:46,160
好吧，我也可以这样。

1768
01:20:46,220 --> 01:20:47,180
我可以更好奇。

1769
01:20:47,220 --> 01:20:49,160
我可以质疑每一条规则和规定。

1770
01:20:50,620 --> 01:20:52,920
我只是不认为任何人

1771
01:20:53,740 --> 01:20:59,700
应该尝试效仿马斯克的时间管理风格，因为它需要

1772
01:21:00,180 --> 01:21:04,860
一组知道如何处理除他所关注的事情之外的其他所有事情的团队

1773
01:21:05,540 --> 01:21:07,280
和一定的

1774
01:21:07,820 --> 01:21:10,440
心灵可以转变，

1775
01:21:10,940 --> 01:21:12,760
就像他的情绪会转变一样。

1776
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:14,980
你和我一起经历

1777
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,100
过渡以及如果我正在考虑

1778
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:19,020
我要在这个播客上说的话

1779
01:21:19,060 --> 01:21:23,340
我也在思考我女儿刚刚发送的关于她正在寻找的房子的电子邮件

1780
01:21:23,340 --> 01:21:26,020
，而且我正在同时处理多项任务。

1781
01:21:26,700 --> 01:21:27,760
他实际上并没有这样做。

1782
01:21:27,780 --> 01:21:31,280
他按顺序单一任务

1783
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:33,200
一个核心的焦点。

1784
01:21:33,660 --> 01:21:34,040
我不知道。

1785
01:21:34,140 --> 01:21:35,640
我认为从中可以汲取智慧。

1786
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:38,220
首先，他让我，

1787
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:40,280
本·富兰克林让我有这样的感觉

1788
01:21:41,020 --> 01:21:42,860
一天中有很多时间。

1789
01:21:43,180 --> 01:21:45,160
一天中有很多分钟。

1790
01:21:46,340 --> 01:21:50,380
没有理由不完成很多事情，而这需要高度专注，

1791
01:21:51,380 --> 01:21:53,540
极度的关注和紧迫感。

1792
01:21:54,260 --> 01:21:58,920
我认为这种紧迫性

1793
01:22:00,340 --> 01:22:02,240
驱动他很重要

1794
01:22:03,060 --> 01:22:04,620
有时它会被轧花。

1795
01:22:05,860 --> 01:22:10,280
就像我说的，周五晚上前往火星的紧迫性

1796
01:22:10,980 --> 01:22:15,400
晚上 10 点在博卡奇卡发射台，

1797
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:17,420
因为是星期五，所以只有几个人在工作

1798
01:22:17,420 --> 01:22:17,720
夜晚。

1799
01:22:17,740 --> 01:22:20,020
他们预计还要再过八个月才能发射。

1800
01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:22,440
他下令增兵。

1801
01:22:23,020 --> 01:22:26,260
他说，我希望明天之前有 200 人在这个垫子上工作。

1802
01:22:26,940 --> 01:22:29,040
我们要有强烈的紧迫感

1803
01:22:29,040 --> 01:22:30,740
否则我们永远不会到达火星。

1804
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:37,720
那种紧迫感也是一种活力

1805
01:22:38,870 --> 01:22:42,340
这就像真正完全地接受生活一样。

1806
01:22:42,580 --> 01:22:44,840
我的意思是，对我来说，这就是教训，

1807
01:22:45,660 --> 01:22:49,260
即使是平凡的事物也可以充满这种丰富。

1808
01:22:49,540 --> 01:22:54,400
就像你只需要真正认真地接受它一样。

1809
01:22:54,980 --> 01:22:56,180
所以就像切换一样

1810
01:22:57,400 --> 01:22:58,780
实现这种强度

1811
01:22:58,780 --> 01:23:00,420
因为我们大多数人都无法保持这种强度

1812
01:23:00,420 --> 01:23:02,420
长时间从事任何一项任务。

1813
01:23:03,140 --> 01:23:04,360
也许这也是一个教训。

1814
01:23:05,780 --> 01:23:06,020
正确的。

1815
01:23:06,380 --> 01:23:08,880
我想这也可以追溯到知道你是谁，

1816
01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:10,820
意味着有人

1817
01:23:12,100 --> 01:23:16,300
可以高度集中注意力，并且有些人可以看到许多事物的模式。

1818
01:23:16,580 --> 01:23:18,040
看，列奥纳多·达·芬奇，

1819
01:23:19,180 --> 01:23:20,860
他并没有那么专注。

1820
01:23:21,420 --> 01:23:23,540
他很容易分心。

1821
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:24,000
拖延。

1822
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:26,760
这就是为什么他还有更多未完成的画作

1823
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:28,820
比完成他的经典中的画作还要多。

1824
01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:32,300
但他的能力

1825
01:23:33,220 --> 01:23:35,320
看到自然界的模式

1826
01:23:35,380 --> 01:23:39,340
并以某种方式处理、拖延，

1827
01:23:39,720 --> 01:23:40,640
分心，

1828
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:42,860
这对他有一些帮助，

1829
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:46,260
但马斯克不是那样的。

1830
01:23:46,580 --> 01:23:47,060
还有那里

1831
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:50,340
每隔几个月就会出现新的激增，

1832
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:51,820
你不知道它会在哪里

1833
01:23:51,940 --> 01:23:56,480
但你会在太阳能屋顶上，突然间我们会出现激增，而且必须有，

1834
01:23:56,480 --> 01:24:00,420
你知道，建造一百个太阳能屋顶，或者这必须在明天之前完成，或者

1835
01:24:01,060 --> 01:24:05,200
在黎明前制作一个星舰圆顶并涌动并完成它。

1836
01:24:06,230 --> 01:24:08,640
有些人就是这样建造的。

1837
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:10,000
这是鼓舞人心的，

1838
01:24:10,900 --> 01:24:12,750
但也让我们欣赏，

1839
01:24:13,440 --> 01:24:16,820
你知道，有些人可以非常优秀，

1840
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:22,900
还可以细细品味

1841
01:24:24,180 --> 01:24:24,800
成功，

1842
01:24:25,140 --> 01:24:25,780
品味当下，

1843
01:24:26,180 --> 01:24:27,900
有时品味安静。

1844
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:32,260
马斯克最大的失败是他无法品味

1845
01:24:33,300 --> 01:24:33,980
此时此刻

1846
01:24:34,500 --> 01:24:35,060
或成功。

1847
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:38,700
这就是硬核强度的另一面。

1848
01:24:40,440 --> 01:24:41,760
在《创新者》中，另一个

1849
01:24:42,380 --> 01:24:43,500
你的书我很喜欢，

1850
01:24:43,620 --> 01:24:45,600
你写的是个人和群体。

1851
01:24:46,540 --> 01:24:49,820
所以这本书要解决的问题之一是，

1852
01:24:49,900 --> 01:24:51,660
是个人还是

1853
01:24:51,660 --> 01:24:53,420
它是扭转历史潮流的团体吗？

1854
01:24:55,340 --> 01:25:02,300
当亨利·基辛格执行中东和平航天飞机任务时，这是我写的第一本书。

1855
01:25:03,380 --> 01:25:05,440
他说，当我还是哈佛大学教授时，

1856
01:25:06,580 --> 01:25:09,020
我以为历史是由伟大的人决定的

1857
01:25:09,140 --> 01:25:11,360
力量和人群。

1858
01:25:12,660 --> 01:25:13,980
但当我近距离看到它时

1859
01:25:14,180 --> 01:25:17,060
我看到一个人可以带来多大的改变。

1860
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:21,740
他在谈论萨达特，戈尔达·梅厄也可能在谈论他自己，

1861
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:23,920
或者至少在他看来。

1862
01:25:25,340 --> 01:25:28,400
我们传记作家有一个我们知道的肮脏秘密，

1863
01:25:28,500 --> 01:25:29,700
我们歪曲历史

1864
01:25:29,700 --> 01:25:32,640
有点让叙述过于由个人驱动。

1865
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:35,460
但有时它是由

1866
01:25:35,460 --> 01:25:35,940
个人。

1867
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:37,380
马斯克就是这样的例子。

1868
01:25:37,660 --> 01:25:39,880
有时，就像我对创新者所做的那样，

1869
01:25:41,020 --> 01:25:46,010
有一些团队和人员互相帮助，戈登·摩尔和鲍勃·诺伊斯，

1870
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:48,500
然后让安迪·格罗夫去做微芯片，

1871
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:52,680
然后出来，沃兹尼亚克和乔布斯找到了它

1872
01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:57,400
在一家电子商店，他们决定打造苹果电脑。

1873
01:25:59,380 --> 01:26:01,160
所以有时有

1874
01:26:02,020 --> 01:26:05,460
是力量和人群的流动。

1875
01:26:06,200 --> 01:26:09,560
我想我在寻找方面犯了一点错误

1876
01:26:09,990 --> 01:26:12,760
史蒂夫·乔布斯和埃隆·马斯克

1877
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:15,200
阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦可以做到。

1878
01:26:16,180 --> 01:26:18,040
我也试图弄清楚

1879
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:19,260
如果他们不在身边的话

1880
01:26:19,420 --> 01:26:21,280
历史的力量和人民团体会不会

1881
01:26:21,620 --> 01:26:22,880
没有他们就做到了吗？

1882
01:26:23,240 --> 01:26:27,220
作为一个热爱历史的人，这是一个很好的历史问题。

1883
01:26:28,100 --> 01:26:29,060
你想想

1884
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:30,640
狭义相对论，

1885
01:26:31,060 --> 01:26:32,620
1905 年的论文之一。

1886
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:36,200
甚至在他写完之后，

1887
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:38,760
四年后人们才真正明白他所说的，

1888
01:26:38,820 --> 01:26:40,840
这不只是你的方式

1889
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:42,140
观察时间是相对的，

1890
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:44,100
时间本身是相对的。

1891
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:46,160
根据一般理论，

1892
01:26:46,320 --> 01:26:47,720
十年后他这样做了，

1893
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:50,760
我不确定我们是否能得到它。

1894
01:26:51,300 --> 01:26:53,480
把我们搬进怎么样

1895
01:26:53,480 --> 01:26:59,560
iPhone 的时代，它是如此美丽，以至于你口袋里没有一千首歌曲就无法生活，

1896
01:27:00,300 --> 01:27:01,100
电子邮件和

1897
01:27:01,740 --> 01:27:04,260
口袋里的互联网和手机？

1898
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:07,440
有很多的

1899
01:27:07,440 --> 01:27:11,280
从松下到摩托罗拉，脑死亡的人都没有明白这一点。

1900
01:27:11,300 --> 01:27:12,540
可能已经有一段时间了。

1901
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:16,220
我当然认为电动汽车时代也是如此。

1902
01:27:16,980 --> 01:27:17,640
吉姆和福特，

1903
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:19,320
那里所有伟大的人，

1904
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:21,100
他们压碎了螺栓。

1905
01:27:21,200 --> 01:27:22,260
我的意思是，从字面上看，

1906
01:27:22,320 --> 01:27:23,840
他们最终粉碎了

1907
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:26,200
他们因为他们决定停止它。

1908
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:27,180
同样地，

1909
01:27:27,780 --> 01:27:29,100
没有人发射火箭。

1910
01:27:29,740 --> 01:27:31,940
我们的航天飞机即将停飞

1911
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:33,780
12年前。

1912
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:38,160
所以马斯克做事

1913
01:27:39,220 --> 01:27:40,760
就会有人说，

1914
01:27:41,300 --> 01:27:42,240
如果他们读了这本书，

1915
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:43,340
他们会看到完整的故事。

1916
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:44,060
但他们这么说

1917
01:27:44,060 --> 01:27:45,460
特斯拉不是马斯克造的，

1918
01:27:45,580 --> 01:27:46,980
是马丁·阿巴·哈特或马克·塔彭宁。

1919
01:27:47,300 --> 01:27:47,620
不，不，

1920
01:27:48,220 --> 01:27:48,300
不。

1921
01:27:48,340 --> 01:27:50,460
曾经有帮助过的人

1922
01:27:51,460 --> 01:27:55,040
创建公司和其他事物的外壳

1923
01:27:55,580 --> 01:27:58,560
他们都当之无愧地被称为联合创始人。

1924
01:27:59,300 --> 01:28:00,640
但实际上那个人

1925
01:28:01,200 --> 01:28:02,140
让我们达到一百万

1926
01:28:02,160 --> 01:28:03,620
电动汽车一年

1927
01:28:04,480 --> 01:28:05,220
是埃隆·马斯克。

1928
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:05,900
而没有他，

1929
01:28:07,240 --> 01:28:09,300
我不认为我们...

1930
01:28:09,300 --> 01:28:09,560
看，

1931
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:15,860
如果五年后有人购买汽油动力的汽车

1932
01:28:16,380 --> 01:28:18,830
我们会认为这很奇怪，那就是

1933
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:19,500
奇怪的。

1934
01:28:20,380 --> 01:28:21,660
我的意思是，突然我们就变了。

1935
01:28:21,820 --> 01:28:22,680
我们不会这么做。

1936
01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:25,000
其中 90% 是埃隆·马斯克。

1937
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:26,900
我们都是凡人。

1938
01:28:27,820 --> 01:28:32,500
你认为埃隆何时以及如何从疯狂高效的工作中退休？

1939
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:33,980
他现在的日程安排？

1940
01:28:35,160 --> 01:28:37,340
我认为他不愿意退休。

1941
01:28:37,640 --> 01:28:39,520
我觉得他活不下去了

1942
01:28:40,820 --> 01:28:41,900
没有压力，

1943
01:28:42,260 --> 01:28:42,920
电视剧，

1944
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:45,920
一切都在感觉中。

1945
01:28:49,140 --> 01:28:53,800
他似乎从来没有想到过任何事情。

1946
01:28:54,260 --> 01:28:54,880
他从来没有说过，

1947
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:58,940
也许我喜欢拉里·埃里森在夏威夷海滩上的房子。

1948
01:28:59,140 --> 01:28:59,820
也许我应该

1949
01:29:00,420 --> 01:29:01,240
花时间去做。

1950
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:03,240
相反，他会说这样的话，

1951
01:29:03,420 --> 01:29:06,380
我很早就知道假期会杀了你。

1952
01:29:07,620 --> 01:29:09,420
当他去度假时，他得了疟疾。

1953
01:29:09,700 --> 01:29:11,360
我是说，他一会去度假

1954
01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:13,260
点，他们将他从 PayPal 中驱逐了。

1955
01:29:13,480 --> 01:29:14,800
然后他去了一趟非洲，

1956
01:29:14,940 --> 01:29:15,720
他得了疟疾。

1957
01:29:15,860 --> 01:29:17,240
他说，我知道了，假期会害死你。

1958
01:29:17,260 --> 01:29:17,780
学过的知识。

1959
01:29:18,380 --> 01:29:20,360
嗯，这很有趣，因为这些项目是

1960
01:29:21,020 --> 01:29:22,960
一百多年的项目。

1961
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:23,900
其中很多。

1962
01:29:24,020 --> 01:29:25,600
奇怪的事情之一

1963
01:29:27,260 --> 01:29:28,580
正在看着他思考

1964
01:29:29,540 --> 01:29:30,880
令人难以置信的长期。

1965
01:29:31,740 --> 01:29:33,340
每周举行一次会议

1966
01:29:34,180 --> 01:29:36,980
早些时候当我看着他的时候

1967
01:29:37,500 --> 01:29:39,120
是火星殖民者。

1968
01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:41,380
我们花了两个小时

1969
01:29:41,380 --> 01:29:45,020
会议讨论火星上的治理结构是什么？

1970
01:29:46,020 --> 01:29:47,200
人们会穿什么？

1971
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:49,440
机器人将如何工作？

1972
01:29:51,500 --> 01:29:54,560
会有民主吗？或者应该有吗？

1973
01:29:55,340 --> 01:29:58,300
不同的治理形式？

1974
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:00,180
我坐在那里说，

1975
01:30:01,040 --> 01:30:01,520
他们在做什么？

1976
01:30:01,620 --> 01:30:02,360
他们在说什么？

1977
01:30:02,980 --> 01:30:04,780
他们正在尝试建造火箭飞船和其他一切。

1978
01:30:05,480 --> 01:30:08,140
他们担心火星的治理结构。

1979
01:30:08,740 --> 01:30:09,520
同样，

1980
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:13,840
每当他心情紧张的时候

1981
01:30:14,140 --> 01:30:14,840
就像有一枚火箭

1982
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:15,660
即将推出，

1983
01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:18,780
未来他会开始问人们一些问题，

1984
01:30:19,580 --> 01:30:20,720
喜欢新的

1985
01:30:21,840 --> 01:30:23,480
引导引擎什么的。

1986
01:30:23,540 --> 01:30:24,360
如果我们要建造它，

1987
01:30:24,680 --> 01:30:26,780
我们准备好足够的材料了吗

1988
01:30:26,780 --> 01:30:28,980
订购或我不知道

1989
01:30:28,980 --> 01:30:31,280
他只会问问题

1990
01:30:33,180 --> 01:30:35,460
就像他建造机器人出租车时一样

1991
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:39,440
全球汽车，25,000 美元的廉价全球汽车。

1992
01:30:39,940 --> 01:30:41,280
这并不是完全的热情。

1993
01:30:41,480 --> 01:30:43,280
他被说服这样做。

1994
01:30:43,700 --> 01:30:44,960
他的热情是机器人出租车，

1995
01:30:45,740 --> 01:30:48,480
但他的热情是我们如何建造这个工厂

1996
01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:50,540
每年生产一百万辆汽车？

1997
01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:55,840
所以即使是机器人出租车也是一个更远距离的视野。

1998
01:30:55,980 --> 01:30:58,340
我的意思是，他从 2016 年起就一直在宣传它，

1999
01:30:59,500 --> 01:31:00,820
但我们不是。

2000
01:31:01,540 --> 01:31:02,740
没有机器人出租车。

2001
01:31:02,940 --> 01:31:03,120
我是说，

2002
01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:06,460
Waymo 可能正在做一些实验，但还没有

2003
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:09,800
制造的汽车没有转向装置

2004
01:31:09,850 --> 01:31:12,140
即将占领高速公路的车轮。

2005
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:13,480
是的。

2006
01:31:13,480 --> 01:31:16,580
所以我的观点是他总是展望未来。

2007
01:31:17,260 --> 01:31:25,230
我只是希望有很多达芬奇、史蒂夫·乔布斯和爱因斯坦的作品

2008
01:31:25,420 --> 01:31:28,760
埃隆·马斯克将火焰继续向前推进。

2009
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:30,340
这就是你写书的原因之一

2010
01:31:30,340 --> 01:31:32,340
关于这些人是这样的

2011
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:36,320
如果你是一名年轻女子，在一所学校里却没有人告诉你

2012
01:31:36,340 --> 01:31:40,040
做科学，你读了关于詹妮弗·杜德娜的密码破译，

2013
01:31:40,340 --> 01:31:40,960
你说，好吧，

2014
01:31:41,280 --> 01:31:42,260
我可以成为那样的人

2015
01:31:42,700 --> 01:31:44,180
当你说，

2016
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:47,720
哦，也许我会成为一名监管者，或者你说，

2017
01:31:47,720 --> 01:31:49,960
哦不，也许我会成为那个推动的人

2018
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:52,840
边界，谁突破界限，

2019
01:31:53,100 --> 01:31:55,860
正如史蒂夫·乔布斯所说，他推动了人类。

2020
01:31:57,160 --> 01:31:58,280
好吧，让我问你一下

2021
01:31:59,200 --> 01:31:59,940
你的想法，

2022
01:32:01,020 --> 01:32:01,660
你的天才，

2023
01:32:02,720 --> 01:32:03,660
你的过程。

2024
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:05,640
我会给你三分之二。

2025
01:32:05,940 --> 01:32:06,240
好的。

2026
01:32:07,140 --> 01:32:08,900
请带我回顾一下您撰写传记的过程。

2027
01:32:09,540 --> 01:32:09,820
我是说，

2028
01:32:10,320 --> 01:32:11,260
充满了它。

2029
01:32:11,900 --> 01:32:13,240
不只是写传记，

2030
01:32:13,820 --> 01:32:16,960
却深刻地领悟，

2031
01:32:17,940 --> 01:32:21,460
你的书为

2032
01:32:21,460 --> 01:32:24,980
人类的故事，喜欢人类故事背后的更大的想法。

2033
01:32:25,060 --> 01:32:27,140
所以你写了两个人的传记，

2034
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:29,740
他们几乎不是个人。

2035
01:32:30,300 --> 01:32:32,260
这是一幅非常庞大、复杂的图景。

2036
01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:34,460
以及传记

2037
01:32:35,820 --> 01:32:39,400
涉及个人的想法。

2038
01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:43,200
嗯，对我来说第一步是试图弄清楚大脑是如何运作的。

2039
01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:50,720
是什么让爱因斯坦迈出了这一步，埃隆·马斯克说不锈钢

2040
01:32:50,720 --> 01:32:54,220
当他看着碳纤维火箭时？

2041
01:32:54,740 --> 01:32:54,920
或者

2042
01:32:55,480 --> 01:32:57,020
你如何实现精神上的飞跃？

2043
01:32:57,600 --> 01:32:57,880
因为

2044
01:32:58,360 --> 01:32:59,400
我写的是聪明人

2045
01:32:59,500 --> 01:33:01,000
但聪明人多如牛毛。

2046
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:02,080
他们通常不金额

2047
01:33:02,100 --> 01:33:02,500
太多了。

2048
01:33:02,620 --> 01:33:03,520
你必须有创意，

2049
01:33:03,880 --> 01:33:04,740
富有想象力，以不同的方式思考，

2050
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:06,300
正如乔布斯所说。

2051
01:33:07,020 --> 01:33:08,480
那么是什么让人们具有创造力呢？

2052
01:33:08,940 --> 01:33:10,940
是什么让他们实现了富有想象力的飞跃？

2053
01:33:11,500 --> 01:33:13,140
这是关键问题

2054
01:33:13,140 --> 01:33:14,240
你必须问。

2055
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:16,720
你也问了你之前问过的问题，

2056
01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:18,400
这就是恶魔

2057
01:33:19,060 --> 01:33:22,160
他们的脑子里嗡嗡作响，他们如何利用它们来驱动？

2058
01:33:22,940 --> 01:33:23,760
所以你看全部

2059
01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:26,940
你试着仔细观察

2060
01:33:27,620 --> 01:33:28,400
此人。

2061
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:33,900
我做的最平凡的事情之一是

2062
01:33:34,860 --> 01:33:36,080
很多作家

2063
01:33:36,860 --> 01:33:40,220
尝试给你很多他们的意见

2064
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,160
并传教或其他什么。

2065
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:48,500
正如我所说，这位导师说有两种类型的人出来，传教士和讲故事的人。

2066
01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:50,620
做一个讲故事的人。

2067
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:54,000
我尝试

2068
01:33:54,620 --> 01:33:57,820
每当我试图表达一个想法时

2069
01:33:58,860 --> 01:34:02,040
我几乎应该拥有六个神奇的词

2070
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:03,640
写在卡片上

2071
01:34:04,480 --> 01:34:06,060
钉在我的桌子上方，

2072
01:34:06,440 --> 01:34:08,340
让我给你讲一个故事。

2073
01:34:09,260 --> 01:34:10,460
所以如果有人说

2074
01:34:11,220 --> 01:34:15,460
埃隆·马斯克如何发掘优秀人才

2075
01:34:16,700 --> 01:34:17,280
正如你所做的那样，

2076
01:34:18,140 --> 01:34:19,240
我想，好吧，让我告诉你

2077
01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:19,580
故事。

2078
01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:21,100
我会告诉你杰克·麦肯齐的故事。

2079
01:34:22,540 --> 01:34:24,820
或者这不是我发明的。

2080
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:27,420
这就是圣经中仁慈的主所做的事。

2081
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:29,180
我的意思是，它有最好的开口

2082
01:34:29,820 --> 01:34:32,440
引导句ever，你知道，在开头，逗号，

2083
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:34,020
然后是故事。

2084
01:34:34,940 --> 01:34:38,240
其次，要记住开头的那句话，

2085
01:34:38,780 --> 01:34:40,060
使其按时间顺序排列。

2086
01:34:41,180 --> 01:34:44,960
大家都在40岁

2087
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:45,660
他们生命中的一年

2088
01:34:46,380 --> 01:34:49,440
从第39年和第38年开始增长。

2089
01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:51,320
所以你想要

2090
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:53,700
展示人们如何进化和成长。

2091
01:34:54,760 --> 01:34:57,060
我有最伟大的非小说类叙事

2092
01:34:57,080 --> 01:34:59,400
态度，西蒙·舒斯特的爱丽丝·梅休，

2093
01:35:00,100 --> 01:35:03,200
除其他外，谁创造了总统的所有

2094
01:35:03,200 --> 01:35:04,660
与伍德沃德和伯恩斯坦一起的人。

2095
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:07,720
但她在我书的页边空白处贴了一张纸条

2096
01:35:08,340 --> 01:35:09,380
这是一个勾号，

2097
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:11,540
这意味着一切都恰逢其时。

2098
01:35:12,400 --> 01:35:14,160
保持时间顺序。

2099
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:15,620
如果这对圣经来说足够好的话

2100
01:35:15,660 --> 01:35:16,540
这对你来说已经足够了。

2101
01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:17,240
有趣的。

2102
01:35:17,280 --> 01:35:17,660
大部头书，

2103
01:35:17,960 --> 01:35:19,020
就像那张小纸条一样

2104
01:35:19,580 --> 01:35:21,760
但对你来说，这是极其重要的。

2105
01:35:22,020 --> 01:35:24,480
因为它是你如何构建事物的框架，

2106
01:35:24,480 --> 01:35:26,280
以及你如何理解事物，

2107
01:35:26,440 --> 01:35:30,800
也就是说，如果你按照时间顺序叙述，

2108
01:35:31,620 --> 01:35:34,400
那么你就展示了一个人是如何成长的

2109
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:38,520
从你谈论过的一次经历到下一次经历。

2110
01:35:39,340 --> 01:35:41,980
以及道德的成长，

2111
01:35:42,340 --> 01:35:42,620
有创造力的

2112
01:35:42,940 --> 01:35:44,260
增长、冒险增长、

2113
01:35:45,340 --> 01:35:45,840
智慧，

2114
01:35:46,780 --> 01:35:49,660
这就是创造力的本质。

2115
01:35:50,020 --> 01:35:51,340
但你做不到。

2116
01:35:52,120 --> 01:35:53,000
有

2117
01:35:53,540 --> 01:35:59,780
Bildungsroman这个术语，是一本带有叙述性内容并讲述故事的书

2118
01:35:59,820 --> 01:36:00,700
人们如何学习一些东西。

2119
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:03,240
我非常相信叙事。

2120
01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:04,860
如果你是一名学者，

2121
01:36:06,740 --> 01:36:07,400
有时

2122
01:36:07,780 --> 01:36:10,880
不是今天，而是大约20年前、30年前，

2123
01:36:12,200 --> 01:36:13,860
有两件事你认为不好。

2124
01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:14,340
一个是

2125
01:36:15,460 --> 01:36:20,580
有一个伟大的人物历史理论，你决定在其中写传记。

2126
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:23,300
我在大学时有一位很棒的教授。

2127
01:36:23,660 --> 01:36:24,780
她的名字叫多丽丝·卡恩斯。

2128
01:36:25,820 --> 01:36:27,040
她后来嫁给了迪克·古德温。

2129
01:36:28,020 --> 01:36:28,700
和她，

2130
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:31,780
当她申请大学终身教职时

2131
01:36:32,780 --> 01:36:33,240
写了一本传记

2132
01:36:34,280 --> 01:36:36,220
林登·约翰逊和美国梦。

2133
01:36:36,520 --> 01:36:39,120
他们拒绝了她的任期，因为这是

2134
01:36:39,120 --> 01:36:44,360
通过一个人来书写历史，有损学院的尊严。

2135
01:36:45,820 --> 01:36:46,720
那太棒了。

2136
01:36:47,000 --> 01:36:51,460
它为我们非学者打开了传记领域，

2137
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:54,480
从大卫·麦卡洛开始，

2138
01:36:55,460 --> 01:36:56,200
鲍勃·卡罗,

2139
01:36:56,980 --> 01:37:00,980
但也许约翰·米查姆和我自己属于新一代。

2140
01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:03,840
当然，我们之后还有一代人。

2141
01:37:04,700 --> 01:37:07,500
但第二件事除了通过人来讲述之外

2142
01:37:08,560 --> 01:37:16,120
学院是否倾向于蔑视他们所说的强加叙事

2143
01:37:16,980 --> 01:37:18,440
以及你用什么来讲述故事。

2144
01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:23,800
因为这意味着你要遗漏一些东西并将其变成一个叙述。

2145
01:37:24,660 --> 01:37:24,960
出色地，

2146
01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:29,460
这就是我们形成世界观的方式。

2147
01:37:30,660 --> 01:37:34,740
好吧，让我从收集理解的角度问你这个问题。

2148
01:37:36,940 --> 01:37:43,000
其中有多少是观察，有多少是采访？

2149
01:37:44,760 --> 01:37:44,960
是的。

2150
01:37:45,100 --> 01:37:47,220
嗯，显然取决于主题。

2151
01:37:47,520 --> 01:37:48,820
我的意思是，和本·富兰克林一样，

2152
01:37:48,820 --> 01:37:50,520
这一切都基于档案和每一个，

2153
01:37:51,180 --> 01:37:51,620
当然我们有

2154
01:37:52,440 --> 01:37:53,780
书信40卷。

2155
01:37:54,060 --> 01:37:57,120
他写道，那是一段美好的时光，每天你都会写20封信。

2156
01:37:58,040 --> 01:38:02,980
这本必读的书比我的几乎所有书都更多地基于观察，

2157
01:38:03,060 --> 01:38:08,660
因为他以一种让我惊叹不已的方式敞开心扉。

2158
01:38:09,100 --> 01:38:09,220
是的。

2159
01:38:09,720 --> 01:38:11,580
即使他茫然地坐着

2160
01:38:12,740 --> 01:38:16,340
多面性或对其他人感到愤怒，

2161
01:38:16,440 --> 01:38:18,620
你知道，他让我坐在那里看着。

2162
01:38:20,060 --> 01:38:22,640
我的意思是，我花了很多时间陪在詹妮弗身边。

2163
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:26,360
我去了她的实验室，编辑了一个人类基因，你知道，

2164
01:38:26,680 --> 01:38:27,980
用移液管和试管。

2165
01:38:28,520 --> 01:38:31,260
但我想说我花了

2166
01:38:31,900 --> 01:38:33,060
和她在一起30个小时。

2167
01:38:33,560 --> 01:38:38,520
我无法计算，你知道，仅仅观察清真寺就需要一百个小时或更长时间。

2168
01:38:39,180 --> 01:38:39,980
而我不是

2169
01:38:41,360 --> 01:38:44,580
确信任何传记作者，

2170
01:38:45,020 --> 01:38:46,980
也许自从博斯韦尔接任博士以来

2171
01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:51,200
约翰逊曾经有过同样多的经历

2172
01:38:52,620 --> 01:38:53,260
快了，

2173
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:57,720
意味着任何时候都可以在五英尺外进行访问。

2174
01:38:59,600 --> 01:39:00,920
正因为如此，

2175
01:39:01,540 --> 01:39:03,100
我会回到刚才所说的。

2176
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:05,580
我试图摆脱故事的束缚。

2177
01:39:06,180 --> 01:39:06,900
这与我无关。

2178
01:39:07,020 --> 01:39:09,140
这不是关于，我只是想说，好吧，

2179
01:39:10,320 --> 01:39:11,180
事情是这样的。

2180
01:39:11,500 --> 01:39:12,280
这是这个故事。

2181
01:39:12,300 --> 01:39:12,900
事情是这样的。

2182
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:17,460
然后那天晚上，他第一次进入 Twitter，让你做出自己的判断。

2183
01:39:18,480 --> 01:39:19,380
面试怎么样？

2184
01:39:20,460 --> 01:39:20,860
你曾经有过

2185
01:39:21,880 --> 01:39:23,180
很多对话。

2186
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:27,220
您对接受过采访的人表示感谢。

2187
01:39:28,660 --> 01:39:29,920
嗯，一，我得问一下

2188
01:39:31,000 --> 01:39:32,920
作为一名有抱负的面试官，我自己

2189
01:39:34,140 --> 01:39:34,990
如何？

2190
01:39:36,340 --> 01:39:37,220
人们喜欢说话。

2191
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:39,080
人们只是爱，你知道的。

2192
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:44,380
我有 140 人，也许 150 人，他们都列在后面。

2193
01:39:45,100 --> 01:39:46,320
其中一件小事

2194
01:39:46,350 --> 01:39:47,880
人们不会注意到，

2195
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:48,900
但我现在要说的是

2196
01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:50,960
是所有这些都记录在案。

2197
01:39:51,340 --> 01:39:52,880
让他们说话很容易。

2198
01:39:53,060 --> 01:39:54,480
他们都想谈论清真寺。

2199
01:39:55,060 --> 01:39:56,400
但在某个时刻说，

2200
01:39:56,760 --> 01:39:58,880
我不会在我的书中引用匿名言论。

2201
01:39:59,920 --> 01:40:00,940
我引用一些东西。

2202
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:02,180
我说，

2203
01:40:02,700 --> 01:40:03,520
如果你足够坚强

2204
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:05,420
而你也经历过这一切

2205
01:40:06,080 --> 01:40:08,700
很多时候需要两三个电话回电。

2206
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:11,120
有人会告诉我，哦不，不，不，我不想。

2207
01:40:11,660 --> 01:40:16,180
但我认为了解一切从何而来很重要。

2208
01:40:16,720 --> 01:40:17,600
还有清真寺，

2209
01:40:18,280 --> 01:40:19,000
我有那个

2210
01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:21,480
从一开始就因为我是

2211
01:40:21,480 --> 01:40:22,740
时代杂志记者。

2212
01:40:22,900 --> 01:40:25,660
我曾在新奥尔良《皮卡尤恩时报》担任记者。

2213
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:27,660
上班第一天，

2214
01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:29,040
我必须去报道一起谋杀案。

2215
01:40:30,480 --> 01:40:33,320
我用公用电话给我的编辑打电话，

2216
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:35,140
城市编辑说，

2217
01:40:35,460 --> 01:40:36,880
嗯，你和家人谈过了吗？

2218
01:40:36,940 --> 01:40:37,600
我去了，不，比利。

2219
01:40:37,700 --> 01:40:38,740
我的意思是，家人，

2220
01:40:39,060 --> 01:40:40,160
女儿刚刚得到，

2221
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:41,940
他说，你去敲门吧。

2222
01:40:42,100 --> 01:40:43,100
我敲了敲门。

2223
01:40:43,900 --> 01:40:45,500
一个小时过去了，他们还在说话。

2224
01:40:45,560 --> 01:40:47,000
他们正在拿出她的年鉴。

2225
01:40:48,160 --> 01:40:49,000
我学到的第一课，

2226
01:40:49,280 --> 01:40:52,340
如果你愿意倾听，人们就会愿意交谈。

2227
01:40:53,940 --> 01:40:55,700
无论是亨利·基辛格，

2228
01:40:55,820 --> 01:40:57,640
你只需按下按钮并说基辛格，

2229
01:40:57,680 --> 01:40:59,000
人们会告诉你这些故事。

2230
01:40:59,460 --> 01:41:00,860
一直到埃隆·马斯克，

2231
01:41:02,120 --> 01:41:02,840
每个人都说话了。

2232
01:41:03,060 --> 01:41:03,960
他家里的每个人，

2233
01:41:04,200 --> 01:41:05,880
他解雇的每一个人，每一个人。

2234
01:41:06,020 --> 01:41:06,320
我是说，

2235
01:41:07,160 --> 01:41:08,860
我认为倾听人们的意见很重要。

2236
01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:11,340
作为记者我学到的另一件事是

2237
01:41:11,540 --> 01:41:13,560
当我在新罕布什尔州报道政治时

2238
01:41:13,760 --> 01:41:14,980
以及早期的活动，

2239
01:41:16,000 --> 01:41:16,900
我从中学到了

2240
01:41:17,420 --> 01:41:20,480
两三个伟大的记者，一个叫大卫·布罗德和蒂姆·鲁瑟特，

2241
01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:22,060
已故的 NBC 人物

2242
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:24,320
他们进行所谓的敲门活动。

2243
01:41:24,480 --> 01:41:25,560
你只要走在一个街区，

2244
01:41:25,660 --> 01:41:26,580
敲门

2245
01:41:26,700 --> 01:41:28,340
并向人们询问有关选举的情况。

2246
01:41:29,100 --> 01:41:30,420
但他们说，这就是秘密。

2247
01:41:31,660 --> 01:41:33,260
不要问任何引导性问题。

2248
01:41:33,500 --> 01:41:34,620
没有任何前提。

2249
01:41:35,060 --> 01:41:37,800
只是说，嘿，我正在努力弄清楚这次选举。

2250
01:41:37,980 --> 01:41:38,720
这是怎么回事？

2251
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:40,480
你怎么认为？

2252
01:41:41,020 --> 01:41:42,000
然后保持沉默。

2253
01:41:42,660 --> 01:41:43,080
和马斯克一起，

2254
01:41:43,460 --> 01:41:43,920
第三个秘密，

2255
01:41:44,640 --> 01:41:45,520
你很清楚这一点。

2256
01:41:46,660 --> 01:41:48,420
他有时会沉默。

2257
01:41:49,180 --> 01:41:49,660
有时

2258
01:41:50,320 --> 01:41:51,700
一分钟，两分钟，四分钟。

2259
01:41:52,300 --> 01:41:53,640
不要试图填补沉默。

2260
01:41:54,440 --> 01:41:55,360
如果你是一个倾听者，

2261
01:41:56,380 --> 01:41:57,480
你必须学习，

2262
01:41:58,560 --> 01:41:58,940
好的，

2263
01:41:59,500 --> 01:42:01,040
四分钟内他什么也没说。

2264
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:02,760
我可以比他活得更长久。

2265
01:42:03,040 --> 01:42:03,500
它太硬。

2266
01:42:03,920 --> 01:42:04,780
作为人类，这是非常艰难的。

2267
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:07,060
尊重沉默真的非常非常困难。

2268
01:42:09,180 --> 01:42:10,080
说到恶魔，

2269
01:42:11,020 --> 01:42:13,240
当一片寂静时，所有的恶魔都会出现在我的脑海里。

2270
01:42:13,820 --> 01:42:17,320
我想，恐惧是如果我什么都不说，

2271
01:42:17,880 --> 01:42:18,540
这很无聊。

2272
01:42:18,620 --> 01:42:19,420
如果我说些什么，

2273
01:42:19,440 --> 01:42:20,200
这会很愚蠢。

2274
01:42:21,100 --> 01:42:23,420
这就是持续运转的基本引擎。

2275
01:42:23,540 --> 01:42:24,620
不在播客上，

2276
01:42:24,760 --> 01:42:27,380
在播客上，也在人际互动中。

2277
01:42:28,020 --> 01:42:30,140
所以我认为有那种紧张的能量

2278
01:42:30,140 --> 01:42:31,260
与人交往时。

2279
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:33,260
你永远不会出错

2280
01:42:33,980 --> 01:42:35,020
保持沉默

2281
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:37,880
如果你没什么要说的

2282
01:42:38,540 --> 01:42:39,900
不是我掌握的东西

2283
01:42:40,880 --> 01:42:43,100
但当我是一名记者时我确实如此

2284
01:42:43,140 --> 01:42:44,880
尝试掌握这一点，即

2285
01:42:46,580 --> 01:42:50,400
不要问复杂的问题。

2286
01:42:51,260 --> 01:42:53,480
别插话。

2287
01:42:54,300 --> 01:42:56,360
当有人没有完全回答问题时，

2288
01:42:56,800 --> 01:42:57,960
别说，好吧，让我，

2289
01:42:58,380 --> 01:42:59,740
你知道，保持沉默

2290
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:01,600
然后他们会继续说话。

2291
01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:03,860
只要给他们一个继续说话的机会。

2292
01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:05,440
即使他们已经完成了，

2293
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:06,140
仍然。

2294
01:43:06,700 --> 01:43:08,140
有时候他们给你的还不够。

2295
01:43:08,440 --> 01:43:09,760
而不是跟进，

2296
01:43:09,900 --> 01:43:12,140
我只会点头

2297
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:12,980
远离。

2298
01:43:13,400 --> 01:43:14,460
你说得听起来很简单。

2299
01:43:14,760 --> 01:43:15,220
有没有

2300
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:17,700
让人们更加开放的秘诀是什么？

2301
01:43:18,180 --> 01:43:19,420
我有点幸运

2302
01:43:20,060 --> 01:43:22,120
因为，你知道，我开始为

2303
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:24,000
一份日报

2304
01:43:25,040 --> 01:43:26,620
还有当时的人们，

2305
01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:29,780
他们想与报纸记者交谈。

2306
01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:31,640
但你也有自己的方式。

2307
01:43:31,820 --> 01:43:32,900
就像，我觉得你有

2308
01:43:33,580 --> 01:43:35,300
就像酒吧里的牛仔一样。

2309
01:43:35,320 --> 01:43:36,580
就像你只是想说话一样。

2310
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:37,840
好像有平局一样。

2311
01:43:37,960 --> 01:43:38,460
我不知道。

2312
01:43:39,540 --> 01:43:40,700
我不知道那是什么。

2313
01:43:40,840 --> 01:43:42,540
可能是吧，不知道是不是开发商

2314
01:43:42,580 --> 01:43:43,300
你与生俱来，

2315
01:43:43,300 --> 01:43:46,020
但有一个，感觉就像我想告诉你一个某种故事。

2316
01:43:46,260 --> 01:43:47,660
好，给我讲个故事吧。

2317
01:43:47,980 --> 01:43:50,180
有几件事。

2318
01:43:51,280 --> 01:43:51,900
我确实学到了

2319
01:43:53,260 --> 01:43:54,100
更安静。

2320
01:43:54,840 --> 01:43:57,020
我确信我知道我什么时候

2321
01:43:57,560 --> 01:43:58,560
更年轻甚至更年轻

2322
01:43:59,380 --> 01:44:02,640
我会在以下网址看到我的视频，你知道，

2323
01:44:04,080 --> 01:44:07,100
我总是试图插入一个问题的新闻。

2324
01:44:07,740 --> 01:44:11,820
所以有时你会学会变得更安静。

2325
01:44:12,120 --> 01:44:13,240
我还没有掌握它。

2326
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:14,340
我还没有学够。

2327
01:44:16,340 --> 01:44:18,380
你学会自然而然地好奇。

2328
01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:22,120
今天很多记者提问的时候

2329
01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:24,640
或者他们试图玩陷阱或者尝试

2330
01:44:24,660 --> 01:44:25,420
得到消息

2331
01:44:25,940 --> 01:44:27,120
舀或尝试，

2332
01:44:28,620 --> 01:44:30,540
你知道，做一些可以做的事情

2333
01:44:31,120 --> 01:44:31,780
铅。

2334
01:44:33,080 --> 01:44:33,760
和

2335
01:44:34,660 --> 01:44:36,080
如果你真的

2336
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:37,720
很好奇

2337
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:40,900
并且你确实想知道某个问题的答案，

2338
01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:46,120
然后人们就能看出你问这个问题是因为你想要答案，

2339
01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:48,540
不是因为你在和他们玩游戏。

2340
01:44:50,040 --> 01:44:52,140
我确信其中一些是不公开的

2341
01:44:52,260 --> 01:44:53,420
其中一些记录在案，你有

2342
01:44:54,620 --> 01:44:55,300
或许，

2343
01:44:55,760 --> 01:44:56,020
你知道，

2344
01:44:57,460 --> 01:44:59,200
只是一些令人难以置信的对话。

2345
01:44:59,560 --> 01:45:01,220
我想说一些最伟大的对话

2346
01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:02,160
曾经，但谁知道呢？

2347
01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:06,040
一些最好的对话可能发生在南美洲的某个地方

2348
01:45:06,040 --> 01:45:08,660
两个醉酒的人之间我们永远听不到的。

2349
01:45:08,900 --> 01:45:10,000
所以我不知道，我不知道。

2350
01:45:10,300 --> 01:45:11,260
但是

2351
01:45:12,260 --> 01:45:13,760
你可以给你一个设备

2352
01:45:14,780 --> 01:45:18,960
从你向像我这样的人学到的以及如何进行良好的对话中学到的东西，

2353
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:20,820
尤其是一旦录制？

2354
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:23,420
好吧，实际上是好奇。

2355
01:45:23,940 --> 01:45:27,260
我的意思是，你问我的每一个问题都是因为我认为你真的想知道

2356
01:45:27,260 --> 01:45:29,500
答案你已经完成了你的作业

2357
01:45:30,420 --> 01:45:33,300
保持开放，不要有议程。

2358
01:45:34,180 --> 01:45:35,660
我的意思是，我们都

2359
01:45:36,540 --> 01:45:39,980
当今世界有太多的议程。

2360
01:45:41,220 --> 01:45:41,500
是的。

2361
01:45:41,500 --> 01:45:42,980
所以这只是真正的好奇心

2362
01:45:43,200 --> 01:45:46,120
但是，嗯，当你说话的时候有一些东西

2363
01:45:46,140 --> 01:45:47,480
只是一对一的互动，

2364
01:45:49,260 --> 01:45:50,820
无论是埃隆、史蒂夫·乔布斯还是

2365
01:45:52,140 --> 01:45:53,180
有东西

2366
01:45:54,500 --> 01:45:56,580
那个人的心灵很美丽。

2367
01:45:57,280 --> 01:45:58,280
感觉就像

2368
01:45:59,560 --> 01:46:00,520
这是可能的

2369
01:46:01,240 --> 01:46:02,220
揭示这一点，

2370
01:46:03,500 --> 01:46:04,980
一起发现

2371
01:46:06,420 --> 01:46:07,280
有效率的。

2372
01:46:08,700 --> 01:46:10,660
这就是谈话的目标。

2373
01:46:11,160 --> 01:46:12,120
嗯，我的意思是，看，

2374
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:17,140
您是顶级播客和采访者之一

2375
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:18,780
在当今世界。

2376
01:46:19,720 --> 01:46:21,620
你对你有一种认真的态度。

2377
01:46:23,340 --> 01:46:26,320
嗯，本·富兰克林是教我的人，

2378
01:46:27,000 --> 01:46:27,600
我是说，

2379
01:46:28,040 --> 01:46:28,680
通过阅读他

2380
01:46:29,260 --> 01:46:31,360
谈话中最多的内容。

2381
01:46:31,520 --> 01:46:33,400
他就此写了一篇精彩的文章。

2382
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:35,200
它包括沉默。

2383
01:46:36,700 --> 01:46:36,840
呃，

2384
01:46:37,940 --> 01:46:39,540
但它包括

2385
01:46:41,460 --> 01:46:45,520
尝试提出真诚的问题而不是

2386
01:46:46,880 --> 01:46:47,780
明白一点。

2387
01:46:48,800 --> 01:46:49,300
我是说，

2388
01:46:50,180 --> 01:46:56,640
这有点苏格拉底式的，但每当他想知道时，

2389
01:46:57,360 --> 01:47:00,900
我想在费城建立一个消防员核心。

2390
01:47:02,680 --> 01:47:05,800
他会去他称之为“皮围裙俱乐部”的组织

2391
01:47:06,560 --> 01:47:07,680
他们会提出一个问题。

2392
01:47:08,080 --> 01:47:09,220
为什么我们没有呢？

2393
01:47:10,020 --> 01:47:11,060
需要什么？

2394
01:47:11,200 --> 01:47:11,940
什么会好呢？

2395
01:47:12,400 --> 01:47:15,220
第二部分是确保你倾听。

2396
01:47:15,740 --> 01:47:17,760
如果有人甚至只是

2397
01:47:17,780 --> 01:47:19,040
一个想法的萌芽，

2398
01:47:20,040 --> 01:47:21,340
给予他们信任。

2399
01:47:21,440 --> 01:47:21,580
喜欢

2400
01:47:22,260 --> 01:47:23,240
正如乔所说，

2401
01:47:23,780 --> 01:47:26,080
你知道，真正的问题是，

2402
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:31,960
我确实认为

2403
01:47:33,060 --> 01:47:37,420
如果我遇到这样的情况，我只是想吃顿晚饭什么的，

2404
01:47:37,900 --> 01:47:38,420
我和某人在一起，

2405
01:47:39,940 --> 01:47:42,280
我通常很好奇，我会，

2406
01:47:42,860 --> 01:47:44,300
谈话将继续进行，

2407
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:46,540
你知道，带着问题。

2408
01:47:46,740 --> 01:47:49,580
我想这也是因为

2409
01:47:49,580 --> 01:47:52,660
我对任何人在做什么都很感兴趣

2410
01:47:52,860 --> 01:47:53,960
无论我碰巧和谁在一起。

2411
01:47:55,820 --> 01:47:56,820
那就是

2412
01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:01,680
你有一种天赋，那就是你对自己的兴趣非常真诚。

2413
01:48:02,860 --> 01:48:03,480
那儿有人

2414
01:48:04,500 --> 01:48:05,660
像本杰明·富兰克林一样，

2415
01:48:06,180 --> 01:48:06,500
像，

2416
01:48:07,340 --> 01:48:08,440
我会说查理·罗斯，

2417
01:48:08,460 --> 01:48:09,900
即使他不被看好，

2418
01:48:10,380 --> 01:48:12,740
对大量主题感兴趣的人。

2419
01:48:12,740 --> 01:48:14,280
我认为这也有帮助

2420
01:48:14,680 --> 01:48:19,640
对篮球、歌剧、物理和形而上学感兴趣。

2421
01:48:21,140 --> 01:48:21,760
呃，那是一个本

2422
01:48:21,780 --> 01:48:23,620
富兰克林，这是列奥纳多的把戏，

2423
01:48:24,060 --> 01:48:24,300
这是

2424
01:48:25,160 --> 01:48:26,740
他们想知道你能知道的一切

2425
01:48:26,740 --> 01:48:28,240
可能了解所有已知的主题。

2426
01:48:30,220 --> 01:48:32,240
但这还有一个不同的方面，

2427
01:48:32,540 --> 01:48:33,400
也就是，嗯，

2428
01:48:34,200 --> 01:48:36,000
我很想听

2429
01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:38,260
你是如何解决这个问题的，或者你是否遇到过这个问题，

2430
01:48:38,720 --> 01:48:39,860
你肯定会解除武装。

2431
01:48:41,860 --> 01:48:41,900
呃，

2432
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:44,500
瞧，我就像，呃，在这里对你表示恭维，

2433
01:48:44,540 --> 01:48:45,300
试图得到你。

2434
01:48:45,440 --> 01:48:46,500
这是一个非常解除武装的方法。

2435
01:48:46,660 --> 01:48:47,040
是的。

2436
01:48:47,400 --> 01:48:49,260
我最近与本杰明和雅虎进行了交谈。

2437
01:48:49,480 --> 01:48:50,480
我们会，我们会再谈。

2438
01:48:50,700 --> 01:48:54,140
不幸的是，由于日程安排和复杂性，我们只有一个小时，

2439
01:48:54,200 --> 01:48:55,620
这是非常困难的，

2440
01:48:55,920 --> 01:48:56,900
非常困难

2441
01:48:57,340 --> 01:48:58,720
与有魅力的政治家。

2442
01:48:59,660 --> 01:49:00,460
我明白这一点，

2443
01:49:00,780 --> 01:49:03,240
但他也是一位富有魅力的演讲者

2444
01:49:03,240 --> 01:49:05,500
一小时内很难突破。

2445
01:49:07,060 --> 01:49:08,080
嗯，但是有人有

2446
01:49:09,040 --> 01:49:09,840
筑起围墙，

2447
01:49:10,220 --> 01:49:12,380
不管是因为恶魔还是因为

2448
01:49:12,380 --> 01:49:13,320
呃，他们的政客。

2449
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:15,100
所以他们有议程

2450
01:49:15,100 --> 01:49:15,980
叙述等。

2451
01:49:16,080 --> 01:49:17,900
为了突破这些，

2452
01:49:18,620 --> 01:49:20,660
嗯，我想知道是否有一些建议，一些

2453
01:49:21,040 --> 01:49:23,940
你所学到的智慧，呃，

2454
01:49:24,760 --> 01:49:27,280
通过水或其他什么方式磨损，

2455
01:49:28,900 --> 01:49:29,920
或任何方法，

2456
01:49:30,340 --> 01:49:32,300
我们作为个人建造的墙。

2457
01:49:33,220 --> 01:49:34,500
我的意思是，你称之为解除武装，

2458
01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:36,580
我不知道我是这样的人

2459
01:49:36,700 --> 01:49:38,380
但解除武装基本上意味着

2460
01:49:38,380 --> 01:49:40,600
你也拆掉了他们的盾牌。

2461
01:49:41,500 --> 01:49:43,600
你知道，当人们拥有盾牌时

2462
01:49:45,060 --> 01:49:47,860
你试图给他们安慰，

2463
01:49:48,520 --> 01:49:51,120
我对埃隆·马斯克的这个问题为零。

2464
01:49:51,780 --> 01:49:52,400
我的意思是，那是

2465
01:49:53,180 --> 01:49:54,160
就像对我解除武装一样

2466
01:49:54,560 --> 01:49:54,820
这是

2467
01:49:55,420 --> 01:49:56,640
我一直等着说，

2468
01:49:56,720 --> 01:49:57,580
好吧，他不会，

2469
01:49:57,700 --> 01:49:59,440
他，他有一个外壳，否则他不会这样做。

2470
01:50:00,100 --> 01:50:00,620
但

2471
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:01,700
他是，

2472
01:50:02,700 --> 01:50:04,040
嗯，

2473
01:50:04,600 --> 01:50:05,100
几乎

2474
01:50:05,760 --> 01:50:09,280
疯狂地开放

2475
01:50:10,360 --> 01:50:14,400
似乎并没有，呃，

2476
01:50:14,900 --> 01:50:18,080
想要编造、隐藏或伪造事情。

2477
01:50:18,980 --> 01:50:20,240
嗯，

2478
01:50:21,240 --> 01:50:22,300
我很幸运。

2479
01:50:23,280 --> 01:50:24,360
杜德娜就是这样。

2480
01:50:25,100 --> 01:50:27,160
史蒂夫·乔布斯就是这样，

2481
01:50:27,780 --> 01:50:29,260
你也必须投入时间。

2482
01:50:29,480 --> 01:50:30,200
换句话说，嗯，

2483
01:50:31,220 --> 01:50:36,140
你不能说，好吧，有一个小时的采访，我要打破每堵墙。

2484
01:50:36,400 --> 01:50:37,800
就像你第五次来访一样。

2485
01:50:39,620 --> 01:50:41,660
在我的情况下，你会学到一件事

2486
01:50:43,320 --> 01:50:44,500
第五次访问非常好，

2487
01:50:44,620 --> 01:50:45,980
但有时你不会得到第五次访问。

2488
01:50:46,400 --> 01:50:47,540
有时这只是第一次约会。

2489
01:50:48,420 --> 01:50:48,880
还有，嗯，

2490
01:50:49,480 --> 01:50:51,200
我认为归根结底，

2491
01:50:51,280 --> 01:50:52,560
我们说解除武装，

2492
01:50:52,840 --> 01:50:56,640
但这个人身上有一些东西

2493
01:50:57,320 --> 01:50:57,840
你信任。

2494
01:50:58,740 --> 01:51:00,400
我认为很多都归结为信任

2495
01:51:01,120 --> 01:51:02,540
以某种深刻的人类方式。

2496
01:51:03,200 --> 01:51:03,640
我认为，

2497
01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:07,260
呃，与，与，呃，与我交谈过的许多人，

2498
01:51:07,700 --> 01:51:10,060
有时信任是在面试后发生的，

2499
01:51:10,580 --> 01:51:11,800
这真的很伤心，因为

2500
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:12,980
就像，天哪，

2501
01:51:13,340 --> 01:51:16,320
我从来没有遇到过你这样的情况，我有表演。

2502
01:51:17,100 --> 01:51:17,760
我通常有。

2503
01:51:19,340 --> 01:51:19,660
第二，

2504
01:51:19,960 --> 01:51:23,720
我不是第一次约会的人。

2505
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:24,200
是的。

2506
01:51:24,200 --> 01:51:24,420
是的。

2507
01:51:24,420 --> 01:51:24,660
是的。

2508
01:51:24,720 --> 01:51:24,880
出色地，

2509
01:51:25,240 --> 01:51:26,520
你知道，但我很幸运。

2510
01:51:26,680 --> 01:51:28,980
我的意思是，我在，我说幸运，但我在印刷中，

2511
01:51:29,560 --> 01:51:29,960
你知道，

2512
01:51:30,520 --> 01:51:33,960
印刷品是一种有几千年历史的媒介，

2513
01:51:34,100 --> 01:51:35,320
但我们当中有人喜欢它。

2514
01:51:35,960 --> 01:51:39,840
嗯，播客媒体的本质是我是其中之一，

2515
01:51:39,840 --> 01:51:40,940
一夜情那种女孩。

2516
01:51:41,990 --> 01:51:42,740
呃，

2517
01:51:43,240 --> 01:51:44,600
让我问你关于客观性的问题。

2518
01:51:44,600 --> 01:51:46,880
你追随埃隆，也追随史蒂夫。

2519
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:47,620
就像你一样，

2520
01:51:48,460 --> 01:51:50,240
我的意思是，我什至不知道你是否会说你的朋友，

2521
01:51:50,840 --> 01:51:52,420
你必须小心这样的言语

2522
01:51:52,420 --> 01:51:53,680
但你却有一种亲密感。

2523
01:51:54,040 --> 01:51:58,820
嗯，你如何保持客观？

2524
01:52:00,100 --> 01:52:03,780
您想在讲述一个深刻的人性故事时保持客观吗？

2525
01:52:03,900 --> 01:52:04,260
是的。

2526
01:52:04,480 --> 01:52:06,120
我的意思是，我想诚实地说，

2527
01:52:06,600 --> 01:52:09,540
我认为这类似于客观。

2528
01:52:11,100 --> 01:52:12,800
呃，我试着记住

2529
01:52:14,250 --> 01:52:16,020
我为谁而写？

2530
01:52:16,700 --> 01:52:18,140
我不是为埃隆·马斯克写作。

2531
01:52:18,640 --> 01:52:19,220
正如我所说，

2532
01:52:19,860 --> 01:52:20,880
我还没有把书寄给他。

2533
01:52:21,260 --> 01:52:22,140
我不知道他是否，

2534
01:52:22,400 --> 01:52:23,940
我认为他还没读过。

2535
01:52:24,140 --> 01:52:25,480
嗯，

2536
01:52:26,380 --> 01:52:27,620
我正在为一个人写作

2537
01:52:27,840 --> 01:52:30,480
思想开放的读者。

2538
01:52:31,400 --> 01:52:32,300
和

2539
01:52:33,600 --> 01:52:35,360
如果我可以放入

2540
01:52:35,980 --> 01:52:37,600
一个故事，然后说，好吧，那会

2541
01:52:38,360 --> 01:52:41,940
激怒对象或者确实会让对象高兴。

2542
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:44,100
那是无关紧要的。

2543
01:52:44,300 --> 01:52:45,320
或者我尝试做

2544
01:52:45,320 --> 01:52:47,000
这是一个次要的考虑。

2545
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:49,500
这是读者的意愿

2546
01:52:51,240 --> 01:52:53,500
有更好的理解，因为

2547
01:52:53,520 --> 01:52:55,200
我把这个故事写进了书里。

2548
01:52:57,520 --> 01:52:58,520
我是一个有点浪漫的人。

2549
01:53:00,560 --> 01:53:04,640
所以对我来说，即使是你的爱因斯坦书也有教训

2550
01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:07,280
关于浪漫和人际关系。

2551
01:53:07,460 --> 01:53:08,000
哦亲爱的。

2552
01:53:09,260 --> 01:53:13,680
那么，浪漫关系对于伟人、伟人的成功有多重要？

2553
01:53:14,040 --> 01:53:14,480
伟大的思想？

2554
01:53:16,060 --> 01:53:20,400
有时候，影响人类进程的人

2555
01:53:21,180 --> 01:53:22,500
与有更好的关系

2556
01:53:22,580 --> 01:53:26,140
人性比他们对坐在他们周围的人的态度更重要。

2557
01:53:26,480 --> 01:53:28,800
爱因斯坦有

2558
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:31,940
两个有趣的关系

2559
01:53:32,380 --> 01:53:32,840
与妻子。

2560
01:53:33,500 --> 01:53:35,440
他的，你知道，马列娃，他的第一任妻子是

2561
01:53:35,980 --> 01:53:37,600
一个共鸣板并帮助

2562
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:40,800
特别是狭义相对论论文的数学。

2563
01:53:41,680 --> 01:53:42,260
嗯，

2564
01:53:42,820 --> 01:53:44,200
但他没有对待她

2565
01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:44,520
出色地。

2566
01:53:44,800 --> 01:53:45,300
我的意思是，他，

2567
01:53:46,040 --> 01:53:50,400
呃，让她签了一封信，保证她不会打扰他。

2568
01:53:50,440 --> 01:53:53,940
她不会，你知道，最后当她想离婚时，

2569
01:53:53,940 --> 01:53:54,800
他买不起

2570
01:53:55,460 --> 01:53:56,500
因为他还是一名专利职员。

2571
01:53:58,180 --> 01:54:00,460
所以，呃，他向她提出了一个交易，

2572
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:02,820
我认为这太棒了。

2573
01:54:03,360 --> 01:54:03,760
他说，

2574
01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:04,800
这些日子中的一天，

2575
01:54:04,900 --> 01:54:06,360
1905 年的其中一篇论文

2576
01:54:07,100 --> 01:54:08,400
即将获得诺贝尔奖。

2577
01:54:09,740 --> 01:54:09,920
如果

2578
01:54:10,500 --> 01:54:11,540
我们离婚，

2579
01:54:12,380 --> 01:54:14,100
呃，你知道，我会给你钱。

2580
01:54:15,300 --> 01:54:16,100
嗯，

2581
01:54:16,460 --> 01:54:17,120
那是很多钱

2582
01:54:17,260 --> 01:54:19,280
那时，现在就像一百万美元什么的。

2583
01:54:20,200 --> 01:54:21,220
而且她很聪明。

2584
01:54:21,300 --> 01:54:22,140
她是一位科学家。

2585
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:24,100
她咨询了其他几位科学家。

2586
01:54:24,100 --> 01:54:26,340
大约一周后，她接受了赌注。

2587
01:54:27,240 --> 01:54:28,540
直到什么时候，

2588
01:54:28,850 --> 01:54:30,920
1919年他获得诺贝尔奖？

2589
01:54:32,880 --> 01:54:33,640
呃，还有

2590
01:54:34,500 --> 01:54:35,400
她得到了所有的钱。

2591
01:54:35,440 --> 01:54:37,360
她在苏黎世购买了三栋公寓楼。

2592
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:40,480
呃，和他的第二任妻子艾尔莎，

2593
01:54:41,240 --> 01:54:44,360
这更多的是一种方便的伙伴关系。

2594
01:54:44,820 --> 01:54:45,660
不是

2595
01:54:46,400 --> 01:54:47,500
浪漫的爱情，

2596
01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:52,820
但他知道，有时候人们在生活中需要的只是一个伴侣。

2597
01:54:53,500 --> 01:54:56,180
我的意思是，有人会处理你不会处理的事情。

2598
01:54:56,880 --> 01:54:59,380
所以我想如果你看看我的书

2599
01:55:00,980 --> 01:55:05,460
它们并不是人际关系方面的伟大鼓舞人心的指南。

2600
01:55:06,620 --> 01:55:09,380
让我问你一下写作本身的实际过程。

2601
01:55:10,260 --> 01:55:12,260
当你观察、倾听时，

2602
01:55:13,000 --> 01:55:14,540
当你收集完所有信息后

2603
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:18,040
什么，呃，甚至可能只是愚蠢的平凡

2604
01:55:18,040 --> 01:55:22,640
问题是，呃，在开始写作之前你早餐吃什么？

2605
01:55:22,840 --> 01:55:23,520
你什么时候写？

2606
01:55:23,820 --> 01:55:24,260
首先，

2607
01:55:24,560 --> 01:55:26,380
早餐不是我最喜欢的一餐。

2608
01:55:26,680 --> 01:55:28,760
还有那些告诉你你

2609
01:55:28,760 --> 01:55:30,200
就得从一顿丰盛的早餐开始，

2610
01:55:31,260 --> 01:55:32,580
我斜视着。

2611
01:55:32,860 --> 01:55:33,300
是的。

2612
01:55:33,460 --> 01:55:35,320
呃，早上不是我最喜欢的

2613
01:55:35,440 --> 01:55:35,920
白天部分。

2614
01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:38,620
所以我在晚上写作

2615
01:55:39,140 --> 01:55:41,460
因为我喜欢叙事，

2616
01:55:42,100 --> 01:55:43,800
构建一本书很容易，

2617
01:55:44,120 --> 01:55:49,920
我可以做一个大纲，如果我打印出来或做笔记的话

2618
01:55:50,840 --> 01:55:51,840
一百页，

2619
01:55:52,420 --> 01:55:53,760
但一切都井井有条。

2620
01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:55,020
换句话说，

2621
01:55:56,960 --> 01:56:00,100
如果我们服务，如果有一个燃烧的人

2622
01:56:00,100 --> 01:56:03,280
他从格莱姆斯回来，然后就有了一个太阳能屋顶的东西，

2623
01:56:03,280 --> 01:56:04,400
然后有一些东西，

2624
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:07,240
我把一切都安排好了

2625
01:56:07,820 --> 01:56:08,720
天天

2626
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:10,720
作为大纲。

2627
01:56:11,020 --> 01:56:12,360
这会约束我

2628
01:56:12,360 --> 01:56:18,240
我开始写作，遵循我的第一位编辑爱丽丝·梅休 (Alice Mayhew) 的口头禅，

2629
01:56:18,760 --> 01:56:20,380
一切都恰逢其时。

2630
01:56:20,420 --> 01:56:21,520
不要超前于故事。

2631
01:56:21,560 --> 01:56:23,040
不必闪退。

2632
01:56:24,380 --> 01:56:26,080
嗯，然后拿到之后

2633
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:28,360
所以这一切都是按时间顺序排列的

2634
01:56:28,380 --> 01:56:30,560
你知道，事情，然后你必须做一些聚类。

2635
01:56:31,120 --> 01:56:32,060
你知道，你必须说，

2636
01:56:32,140 --> 01:56:35,320
好的，我们要做

2637
01:56:35,320 --> 01:56:40,600
决定做星际飞船或在德克萨斯州建工厂或其他什么。

2638
01:56:41,100 --> 01:56:45,020
有时你会遇到组织问题，

2639
01:56:45,320 --> 01:56:46,420
是的，这让我们所有人

2640
01:56:46,420 --> 01:56:47,460
到这里的路。

2641
01:56:48,140 --> 01:56:49,260
我是否将其保留在此处，

2642
01:56:49,260 --> 01:56:52,460
那一章还是我要等到

2643
01:56:52,680 --> 01:56:55,080
以后什么时候按时间顺序比较好？

2644
01:56:55,660 --> 01:56:56,440
但这些都很容易。

2645
01:56:57,080 --> 01:56:59,200
嗯，那实际呢

2646
01:56:59,880 --> 01:57:00,700
的过程

2647
01:57:01,260 --> 01:57:02,140
讲故事？

2648
01:57:02,880 --> 01:57:05,120
嗯，这就是我之前提到的口头禅，

2649
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:06,980
每当我得到

2650
01:57:08,120 --> 01:57:09,460
暂停一下，否则我不知道该怎么做

2651
01:57:09,840 --> 01:57:10,420
说些什么，

2652
01:57:10,840 --> 01:57:12,480
我只是说，让我给你讲一个故事。

2653
01:57:12,660 --> 01:57:13,980
然后我发现

2654
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:17,580
真实的轶事、故事，

2655
01:57:18,880 --> 01:57:22,780
这个故事包含了我想要传达的内容。

2656
01:57:23,200 --> 01:57:24,560
然后我没有说出我想说的话

2657
01:57:24,700 --> 01:57:25,060
传达。

2658
01:57:25,340 --> 01:57:28,700
我没有一个过渡句说：

2659
01:57:28,720 --> 01:57:33,960
你知道，埃隆有时会改变主意，他不记得自己是否改变了主意，或者，

2660
01:57:34,240 --> 01:57:34,920
你知道，你不知道，

2661
01:57:35,420 --> 01:57:37,180
你不需要过渡句。

2662
01:57:37,900 --> 01:57:38,480
你只要说，

2663
01:57:38,860 --> 01:57:41,100
好吧，这就是我接下来要说的重点。

2664
01:57:41,840 --> 01:57:42,500
所以

2665
01:57:43,080 --> 01:57:45,040
你以一句话开头：

2666
01:57:46,020 --> 01:57:49,700
你知道，一月份的一天，在德克萨斯州的工厂里，逗号。

2667
01:57:51,020 --> 01:57:56,980
嗯，我想向你请教的一件事是，

2668
01:57:56,980 --> 01:57:58,800
对于年轻人来说，对于我来说，

2669
01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:08,440
第一个建议是阅读某种意义上的传记，因为它们可以帮助你理解所有的

2670
01:58:08,500 --> 01:58:10,520
您可以通过不同的方式过上美好的生活。

2671
01:58:11,540 --> 01:58:14,000
但从写传记来看，

2672
01:58:14,180 --> 01:58:17,300
研究了这么多伟大的男人和女人，

2673
01:58:17,980 --> 01:58:21,760
对于如何生活，你能给人们什么建议，

2674
01:58:22,280 --> 01:58:22,700
今生？

2675
01:58:23,020 --> 01:58:28,040
嗯，我一直在回顾古典著作、柏拉图、亚里士多德和苏格拉底。

2676
01:58:30,060 --> 01:58:33,240
我猜这是柏拉图的格言，但他可能引用了苏格拉底的话，

2677
01:58:33,760 --> 01:58:35,760
未经审视的生活是不值得过的。

2678
01:58:37,220 --> 01:58:39,100
这又回到了认识你自己，

2679
01:58:39,520 --> 01:58:41,320
这是

2680
01:58:42,200 --> 01:58:44,080
你不必弄清楚什么是大的

2681
01:58:44,100 --> 01:58:45,040
这一切的意义，

2682
01:58:45,560 --> 01:58:46,840
但你必须弄清楚

2683
01:58:47,740 --> 01:58:49,220
你为什么要做你正在做的事情。

2684
01:58:50,780 --> 01:58:51,120
和

2685
01:58:52,100 --> 01:58:57,160
这需要一些我年轻时没有足够的东西，

2686
01:58:58,200 --> 01:59:00,540
这就是自我意识

2687
01:59:01,660 --> 01:59:03,800
并审视每一个动机，

2688
01:59:04,600 --> 01:59:05,440
我所做的一切。

2689
01:59:07,640 --> 01:59:09,360
考试会把你引向何方？

2690
01:59:10,020 --> 01:59:13,900
是不是要、要、要转变，

2691
01:59:16,640 --> 01:59:17,680
在人生轨迹上？

2692
01:59:17,900 --> 01:59:18,360
我是说，

2693
01:59:18,960 --> 01:59:21,080
这不适合我，

2694
01:59:21,220 --> 01:59:24,400
好吧，我现在决定当一名记者，

2695
01:59:24,500 --> 01:59:27,460
我会经营一个智囊团或者我会经营一个网络

2696
01:59:27,460 --> 01:59:28,480
或者我会写一份简历。

2697
01:59:30,020 --> 01:59:33,580
它实际上是按小时计算更有用的东西。

2698
01:59:34,360 --> 01:59:34,860
喜欢，

2699
01:59:35,660 --> 01:59:40,220
为什么我要对某人这么说或者为什么我要

2700
01:59:41,380 --> 01:59:43,280
做这个特定的行为吗？

2701
01:59:44,360 --> 01:59:47,060
我来这里的真正动机是什么？

2702
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:50,200
而且在更广泛的意义上

2703
01:59:50,820 --> 01:59:53,380
像我在 CNN 工作几年后那样学习，

2704
01:59:55,980 --> 02:00:02,850
我对自己生活的审视是，我不擅长管理复杂的组织。

2705
02:00:03,860 --> 02:00:05,640
我作为一名经理并不出色

2706
02:00:06,380 --> 02:00:06,960
给予选择。

2707
02:00:06,980 --> 02:00:08,960
我宁愿让别人来管理我

2708
02:00:08,960 --> 02:00:10,400
比我还要管理人。

2709
02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:13,540
但我花了一段时间才弄清楚这一点。

2710
02:00:14,040 --> 02:00:14,680
我可能是

2711
02:00:14,680 --> 02:00:18,040
我年轻时和在《时代》杂志工作时太过雄心勃勃。

2712
02:00:19,000 --> 02:00:21,100
那时我还青涩，

2713
02:00:21,880 --> 02:00:22,240
那好吧，

2714
02:00:22,800 --> 02:00:25,880
那时我正处于绿色和判断力的沙拉时代。

2715
02:00:27,260 --> 02:00:29,280
那就像在追逐

2716
02:00:30,680 --> 02:00:32,880
时代公司更上一层楼，

2717
02:00:32,880 --> 02:00:34,060
不管它是什么。

2718
02:00:35,080 --> 02:00:40,640
然后有一天，我获得了铜环，成为一名编辑，然后是顶级编辑。

2719
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:42,560
过了一会儿我意识到

2720
02:00:43,380 --> 02:00:44,860
那不是

2721
02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:48,020
真的完全就是我适合的样子

2722
02:00:48,020 --> 02:00:50,480
尤其是当我被任命负责 CNN 时。

2723
02:00:51,580 --> 02:00:53,660
我的意思是，所有的年轻人几乎都在

2724
02:00:53,680 --> 02:00:56,460
在他们的沙拉时代定义绿色和判断。

2725
02:00:57,600 --> 02:00:57,840
但

2726
02:00:59,160 --> 02:01:00,320
你学

2727
02:01:00,980 --> 02:01:02,660
是什么激励着你。

2728
02:01:02,720 --> 02:01:04,600
然后你学会问，

2729
02:01:06,160 --> 02:01:08,400
但这真的是我想要的吗？

2730
02:01:08,520 --> 02:01:10,600
我应该小心我的愿望吗？

2731
02:01:13,320 --> 02:01:13,820
之一

2732
02:01:14,480 --> 02:01:17,280
你能做的大考试就是事实

2733
02:01:17,820 --> 02:01:20,220
你和每个人有一天都会死去。

2734
02:01:21,700 --> 02:01:22,740
你改变多少，

2735
02:01:23,360 --> 02:01:24,020
艾萨克森？

2736
02:01:24,140 --> 02:01:24,760
想想死亡。

2737
02:01:25,100 --> 02:01:25,860
你害怕吗？

2738
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:28,000
不，我也没有想太多。

2739
02:01:28,060 --> 02:01:29,780
但我确实想到了史蒂夫·乔布斯的，

2740
02:01:29,880 --> 02:01:30,800
让我给你讲一个故事

2741
02:01:30,840 --> 02:01:34,300
这是史蒂夫·乔布斯的精彩故事，

2742
02:01:35,120 --> 02:01:36,120
我想他之后

2743
02:01:36,120 --> 02:01:37,740
已确诊，但在公开之前。

2744
02:01:38,400 --> 02:01:41,140
他在斯坦福大学做了一次演讲，但其他的事情，

2745
02:01:42,120 --> 02:01:43,400
他在其中说

2746
02:01:44,160 --> 02:01:46,600
我们即将死去的事实

2747
02:01:47,700 --> 02:01:48,240
让你集中注意力

2748
02:01:48,760 --> 02:01:49,380
并给你意义。

2749
02:01:49,560 --> 02:01:50,260
如果你要活下去的话

2750
02:01:50,660 --> 02:01:52,660
埃隆·马斯克对我说过，

2751
02:01:52,840 --> 02:01:54,520
这是很多技术

2752
02:01:54,520 --> 02:01:58,420
硅谷的兄弟们正在寻找永生的方法。

2753
02:01:59,080 --> 02:02:00,680
马斯克说，我可以认为，

2754
02:02:01,000 --> 02:02:02,440
没有什么比这更糟糕的了。

2755
02:02:03,160 --> 02:02:08,600
我们读过西西弗斯的神话，我们知道被判永生是多么糟糕。

2756
02:02:10,460 --> 02:02:11,080
所以

2757
02:02:12,820 --> 02:02:15,060
有一个古希腊，

2758
02:02:15,220 --> 02:02:19,020
那个走在国王身后并说道“死亡纪念”的人，

2759
02:02:19,540 --> 02:02:20,680
记住你会死。

2760
02:02:21,400 --> 02:02:26,540
它使人们远离

2761
02:02:27,520 --> 02:02:28,860
有点失去它。

2762
02:02:28,860 --> 02:02:30,320
您考虑过遗产吗？

2763
02:02:30,940 --> 02:02:33,780
成为一名传记作家的幸运之处

2764
02:02:34,820 --> 02:02:37,100
是你知道你的遗产是什么。

2765
02:02:37,380 --> 02:02:39,600
会有一个架子，它会很有趣

2766
02:02:39,620 --> 02:02:44,400
人们和你将会激励一个 17 岁的人

2767
02:02:44,940 --> 02:02:48,360
生物学学生去某个地方

2768
02:02:49,020 --> 02:02:55,620
下一个伟大的生物化学家或像埃隆·马斯克这样创办公司的人。

2769
02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:02,060
而我更多地思考的是，

2770
02:03:02,500 --> 02:03:03,540
我不会说回报，

2771
02:03:03,600 --> 02:03:04,940
这是一件很老套的事情。

2772
02:03:05,560 --> 02:03:07,140
我搬回新奥尔良

2773
02:03:08,800 --> 02:03:09,520
因为某种原因。

2774
02:03:09,960 --> 02:03:11,220
首先，飓风袭来。

2775
02:03:11,820 --> 02:03:13,520
卡特里娜飓风过后，我被要求

2776
02:03:14,300 --> 02:03:16,520
担任恢复机构副主席。

2777
02:03:17,040 --> 02:03:17,620
我意识到

2778
02:03:18,360 --> 02:03:20,020
我所拥有的一切，

2779
02:03:20,820 --> 02:03:21,680
一切都源于此

2780
02:03:22,340 --> 02:03:22,940
美丽的

2781
02:03:23,940 --> 02:03:26,060
一座陷入困境的城市的宝石。

2782
02:03:27,200 --> 02:03:29,060
我就读的那所美妙的高中，

2783
02:03:29,080 --> 02:03:31,360
我在那里学习的美妙街道

2784
02:03:31,380 --> 02:03:35,680
骑自行车是有挑战的。

2785
02:03:36,220 --> 02:03:38,120
我永远不会去解决挑战

2786
02:03:38,940 --> 02:03:41,120
在全球大层面上，

2787
02:03:41,600 --> 02:03:43,160
但我可以回家

2788
02:03:43,940 --> 02:03:46,360
并说我的遗产的一部分将是

2789
02:03:46,980 --> 02:03:48,440
我试着还钱

2790
02:03:49,480 --> 02:03:50,280
到我的家乡，

2791
02:03:50,780 --> 02:03:52,220
即使在杜兰大学任教，

2792
02:03:52,240 --> 02:03:53,620
我这样做并不是为了帮忙。

2793
02:03:53,820 --> 02:03:55,460
我很享受其中的乐趣

2794
02:03:55,940 --> 02:03:57,920
但这就像，好吧，我是社区的一部分。

2795
02:03:58,580 --> 02:04:03,260
我认为我们在美国失去了这一点，因为孤独的人之所以孤独，是因为他们不孤独

2796
02:04:03,340 --> 02:04:04,220
社区的一部分。

2797
02:04:04,660 --> 02:04:06,260
但我有我所有高中生的孩子

2798
02:04:06,640 --> 02:04:07,960
朋友们，他们都还在

2799
02:04:07,960 --> 02:04:08,360
新奥尔良。

2800
02:04:08,460 --> 02:04:10,080
我有我的家人，

2801
02:04:10,160 --> 02:04:11,420
但我也有杜兰大学，

2802
02:04:11,660 --> 02:04:13,020
新奥尔良的机构

2803
02:04:13,020 --> 02:04:13,940
一直在那里。

2804
02:04:14,800 --> 02:04:18,380
如果我能参与帮助新奥尔良的学校系统，

2805
02:04:18,760 --> 02:04:21,500
帮助青年赋权计划，

2806
02:04:22,200 --> 02:04:24,800
帮助杜兰大学的创新中心，

2807
02:04:25,280 --> 02:04:27,200
我什至是城市规划委员会的成员

2808
02:04:27,260 --> 02:04:29,000
担心分区条例

2809
02:04:29,020 --> 02:04:30,940
对于短期租赁，

2810
02:04:31,900 --> 02:04:32,680
你知道，去算一下。

2811
02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:33,860
但这就像，不，

2812
02:04:34,280 --> 02:04:36,580
让自己沉浸在我的社区中，因为我的社区

2813
02:04:37,780 --> 02:04:39,900
真是太好了

2814
02:04:40,260 --> 02:04:42,860
让我成为我所成为的人

2815
02:04:42,890 --> 02:04:49,120
年复一年地遇到麻烦，一场又一场的飓风，

2816
02:04:49,740 --> 02:04:53,220
确保每一代新人都能发挥创造力。

2817
02:04:53,760 --> 02:04:57,880
这是一座从爵士乐到美食再到建筑都充满创造力的城市。

2818
02:04:58,460 --> 02:05:00,160
所以当我想到，

2819
02:05:00,700 --> 02:05:01,760
我不会说遗产，

2820
02:05:01,860 --> 02:05:04,100
但我该怎么做才能把它还清呢？

2821
02:05:04,180 --> 02:05:04,820
这是

2822
02:05:05,420 --> 02:05:07,680
遗产的一种较低层次的表达方式。

2823
02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:11,920
我通过回到我开始的地方来偿还它

2824
02:05:11,920 --> 02:05:13,580
并第一次尝试去了解它。

2825
02:05:15,680 --> 02:05:18,880
这是对 TS 艾略特台词的抄袭。

2826
02:05:19,120 --> 02:05:21,160
我不想让你认为我想到了这一点。

2827
02:05:22,640 --> 02:05:24,140
总是引用你的消息来源，

2828
02:05:24,140 --> 02:05:24,800
我很感激。

2829
02:05:24,820 --> 02:05:29,040
TS 艾略特，如果你需要弄清楚的话，四个四重奏，

2830
02:05:29,380 --> 02:05:30,700
最后的那部分，

2831
02:05:30,940 --> 02:05:32,960
这就是我们不会停止探索。

2832
02:05:33,540 --> 02:05:36,060
我们所有探索的最终目的是

2833
02:05:36,060 --> 02:05:39,120
回到我们开始的地方，第一次认识它

2834
02:05:39,940 --> 02:05:42,420
穿过那扇未知但已半记得的大门。

2835
02:05:42,660 --> 02:05:43,580
这真是太漂亮了。

2836
02:05:44,040 --> 02:05:47,460
这就是我的灵感

2837
02:05:49,180 --> 02:05:52,060
你做什么工作，

2838
02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:54,720
我想如果这是莎士比亚的戏剧

2839
02:05:54,880 --> 02:05:56,000
你可以称之为第五幕。

2840
02:05:57,220 --> 02:05:59,920
好吧，你回到你来的地方，然后

2841
02:06:01,080 --> 02:06:03,960
不要坐在那里担心遗产，

2842
02:06:04,160 --> 02:06:05,320
但你会坐在那里说，

2843
02:06:05,620 --> 02:06:06,340
我如何确定

2844
02:06:06,340 --> 02:06:07,680
别人可以拥有

2845
02:06:09,240 --> 02:06:10,120
一个神奇的

2846
02:06:10,720 --> 02:06:12,540
轨迹从新奥尔良开始？

2847
02:06:14,120 --> 02:06:17,500
嗯，对我来说，你是有史以来最伟大的讲故事的人之一。

2848
02:06:18,000 --> 02:06:19,320
我一直是它的超级粉丝。

2849
02:06:19,380 --> 02:06:21,340
绝对不是真的，但你真是太好了。

2850
02:06:21,400 --> 02:06:23,380
看，你可以——粗暴地打断。

2851
02:06:26,870 --> 02:06:28,760
我认为

2852
02:06:29,640 --> 02:06:31,000
可能是本·富兰克林，

2853
02:06:32,080 --> 02:06:33,120
于是不知过了多少年

2854
02:06:33,160 --> 02:06:36,500
15年，爱因斯坦一路走到今天，

2855
02:06:36,820 --> 02:06:38,320
我刚刚成为你的超级粉丝。

2856
02:06:38,460 --> 02:06:41,270
你是我认为肯定的人之一

2857
02:06:41,880 --> 02:06:44,940
不会降低自己的出现

2858
02:06:44,940 --> 02:06:46,840
并与我交谈。

2859
02:06:47,780 --> 02:06:49,820
这对我来说是一份巨大的礼物。

2860
02:06:49,840 --> 02:06:53,620
嘿，我为此飞到奥斯汀，因为我是它的忠实粉丝

2861
02:06:54,240 --> 02:06:55,460
尤其是一个大粉丝

2862
02:06:55,460 --> 02:06:57,240
因为你认真对待别人

2863
02:06:57,820 --> 02:06:58,260
你关心。

2864
02:06:59,040 --> 02:07:00,300
谢谢你一千遍。

2865
02:07:00,500 --> 02:07:03,180
感谢您对我的尊重和激励

2866
02:07:03,180 --> 02:07:04,720
数百万人有你的故事。

2867
02:07:04,980 --> 02:07:07,400
再说一遍，这是一个令人难以置信的故事讲述，令人难以置信的人类。

2868
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:09,200
感谢您今天的发言。

2869
02:07:09,480 --> 02:07:10,020
谢谢你，亚历克斯。

2870
02:07:11,160 --> 02:07:14,900
感谢您收听与沃尔特·艾萨克森的对话来支持这个播客。

2871
02:07:15,200 --> 02:07:17,520
请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

2872
02:07:18,060 --> 02:07:20,060
现在让我留给你

2873
02:07:20,060 --> 02:07:21,800
我最喜欢卡尔·荣格的名言之一。

2874
02:07:23,020 --> 02:07:24,080
人们会做任何事，

2875
02:07:24,940 --> 02:07:26,080
无论多么荒唐，

2876
02:07:26,540 --> 02:07:28,680
以免面对自己的灵魂。

2877
02:07:29,880 --> 02:07:32,740
一个人不会因为想象光的形象而变得开悟，

2878
02:07:33,560 --> 02:07:36,140
而是通过让黑暗变得有意识。

2879
02:07:37,280 --> 02:07:38,720
感谢您的聆听和希望

2880
02:07:38,820 --> 02:07:40,240
下次再见。

French transcription text:

WALTER : J'espère qu'avec mes livres, je dis que ce n'est pas un guide pratique, mais c'est quelqu'un avec qui vous pouvez marcher. Vous pouvez voir Einstein grandir juif en Allemagne. Vous pouvez voir Jennifer Doudna grandir comme une étrangère, ou Léonard de Vinci ou Elon Musk dans une Afrique du Sud très violente avec un père psychologiquement difficile. Et en descendant du train, il va à un concert anti-apartheid avec son frère et il y a un homme avec un couteau qui sort de sa tête et ils entrent dans la mare de sang et cela colle à leurs âmes. Cela provoque des cicatrices qui dureront le reste de votre vie. Et la question n’est pas de savoir comment éviter d’avoir des cicatrices ? Comment gérez-vous cela ?

LEX : Ce qui suit est une conversation avec Walter Isaacson, l'un des plus grands auteurs de biographies de tous les temps. Ayant écrit des livres incroyables sur Albert Einstein, Steve Jobs, Léonard de Vinci, Jennifer Doudna, Benjamin Franklin, Henry Kissinger, et maintenant un nouveau sur Elon Musk. Nous avons parlé pendant des heures au micro et hors du micro. Je suis sûr que nous en reparlerons plusieurs fois. Walter est un écrivain, un penseur, un observateur et un être humain vraiment spécial. Je recommande fortement aux gens de lire son nouveau livre sur Elon. Je suis sûr qu'il y aura une controverse à court terme, mais à long terme, je pense que cela incitera des millions de jeunes, en particulier ceux qui ont eu une enfance difficile, qui ont des difficultés dans leur environnement ou dans leur propre esprit, à s'attaquer aux problèmes les plus difficiles de leur vie. le monde et de trouver des solutions à ces problèmes, même si les chances sont impossibles. Dans cette conversation, Walter et moi couvrons tous ses livres et utilisons leurs histoires personnelles pour aborder les principes plus larges de la recherche de la grandeur dans la science, la technologie, l'ingénierie, l'art, la politique et la vie. Il y a beaucoup de choses dans le nouveau livre d'Elon pour lesquelles je pense qu'il est préférable de les conserver lorsque je parlerai à nouveau directement à Elon sur ce podcast, ce qui sera assez tôt. Il est peut-être également bon de mentionner ici que mes amitiés comme celle d'Elon, ni aucune autre influence comme l'argent, l'accès, la renommée, le pouvoir, ne me feront jamais sacrifier mon intégrité. J'aime célébrer le bien des gens, faire preuve d'empathie et comprendre, mais j'aime aussi dénoncer les gens sur leurs conneries avec respect et compassion. Si j’échoue, j’échoue à cause d’un manque de compétences et non d’un manque d’intégrité. Je vais travailler dur pour m'améliorer. Ceci est le podcast Lex Friedman. Pour le soutenir, veuillez consulter nos sponsors dans la description. Et maintenant, chers amis, voici Walter Isaacson. Quelle est la place d’une enfance difficile dans la vie des grands hommes et femmes, des grands esprits ? Est-ce une exigence ? Est-ce un catalyseur ou est-ce juste une simple coïncidence du destin ?

WALTER : Eh bien, ce n'est pas une exigence. Certaines personnes ayant eu une enfance heureuse s'en sortent plutôt bien, mais il est certainement vrai que beaucoup de personnes vraiment motivées le sont parce qu'elles exploitent les démons de leur enfance. Même la phrase de Barack Obama dans ses mémoires, selon laquelle je pense que tout homme qui réussit essaie soit d'être à la hauteur des attentes de son père, soit d'oublier les péchés de son père. Et pour Elon, c'est particulièrement vrai car il a eu une enfance à la fois violente et difficile et un père très problématique psychologiquement. Il a ces démons qui dansent dans sa tête et en les maîtrisant, c'est en partie la raison pour laquelle il fait des choses plus risquées, plus aventureuses et plus sauvages que je ne le ferais peut-être jamais.

LEX : J'ai écrit qu'Elon parlait de son père et que parfois cela ressemblait à une torture mentale, l'interaction avec lui pendant son enfance. Pouvez-vous décrire certaines des choses que vous avez apprises ?

WALTER : Ouais, eh bien, Elon et Kimball me disaient que, par exemple, quand Elon a été victime d'intimidation sur le terrain de jeu et qu'un jour, il a été poussé sur du béton Il a fait quelques pas et s'est fait tellement matraquer le visage que Kimball a dit : « Je ne pouvais pas vraiment le reconnaître. Je veux dire, il est resté à l'hôpital pendant presque une semaine. Mais quand il est rentré à la maison, Elon a dû se tenir devant son père et celui-ci l'a réprimandé pendant plus d'une heure et l'a dit qu'il était stupide et a pris le parti de la personne qui l'avait battu.

LEX : C'est probablement l'un des événements les plus traumatisants de la vie d'Elon.

WALTER : Oui. Et il y a aussi la Veld School, une sorte de camp paramilitaire dans lequel les jeunes garçons sud-africains étaient envoyés. Et à un moment donné, il était maigre. Il a très mal à capter les signaux sociaux et émotionnels. Il parle d'être Asperger. Et donc il est traumatisé dans un camp comme celui-là. Mais la deuxième fois qu'il y était allé, il avait grandi. Il avait atteint presque six pieds et avait appris un peu de judo. Et il s'est rendu compte que s'il était battu, cela pourrait lui faire mal, mais il se contenterait de frapper la personne au nez aussi fort que possible. Ce sentiment de toujours riposter a donc également été ancré chez Elon. J'ai passé beaucoup de temps à discuter avec Errol Musk, son père.Elon ne parle plus à Errol Musk, son père, ni à Kimball. Cela fait des années. Et Errol n'a même pas l'email d'Elon. Donc, très souvent, Errol m'enverra des e-mails. EtErrol avait une de ces personnalités de Jekyll et Hyde. C'était un grand esprit d'ingénierie et surtout de science des matériaux. Je savais comment construire un camp en pleine nature en Afrique du Sud en utilisant du mica et comment il ne conduirait pas la chaleur. Mais il traversait également ces périodes sombres au cours desquelles il se montrait simplement psychologiquement violent. Et bien sûr, me dit May Musk, sa mère qui a divorcé très tôt d'Errol, le danger pour Elon est qu'il devienne son père. Et de temps en temps tu as été tellement avec lui, Lex, et tu le connais bien. Il vous parlera même des démons, de Diablo qui danse dans sa tête. Je veux dire, il comprend, il est conscient de lui-même, mais vous l'avez probablement vu à des moments où ces démons prennent le dessus et il devient très sombre et très silencieux. Et Grimes dit : Je peux prédire une minute ou deux à l'avance quand le mode démon est sur le point de se produire. Et il deviendra un peu sombre. J'étais ici à Austin une fois pour dîner avec un groupe. Et on pouvait dire que soudain, quelque chose l'avait déclenché et qu'il allait s'assombrir. Je l'ai vu lors de réunions où quelqu'un disait : nous ne pouvons pas fabriquer cette pièce pour moins de 200 $ ou non, c'est faux. Et il les réprimandera. Et puis il s'en sort. Comme vous le savez aussi, l'énorme cliché où tout à coup il vous montre un sketch des Monty Python sur son téléphone et il plaisante sur des choses. Donc je pense qu'en sortant de l'enfance, il y avait juste de nombreuses facettes, peut-être même de nombreuses personnalités, le mode ingénierie, le mode idiot, le mode charismatique, le mode visionnaire, mais aussi le démon en mode sombre.

LEX : Une citation que vous avez citée à propos d’Elon m’a vraiment marqué. J'oublie de qui ça venait, mais à l'intérieur de l'homme, il est toujours là comme un enfant, l'enfant debout devant son père.

WALTER : C'était Tallulah, sa deuxième épouse. Et elle est géniale. C'est une actrice anglaise. En fait, ils se sont mariés deux fois. Et Tallulah a dit que c'était juste lui, celui de son enfance. C'est un accro au théâtre. Kimball le dit aussi. Et j'ai demandé pourquoi. Et Tallulah a dit pour lui que l'amour et la famille sont en quelque sorte associés à ces tourments psychologiques. Et à bien des égards, il canalisera. Je veux dire, Tallulah serait avec lui en 2008, lorsque l'entreprise faisait faillite ou quoi que ce soit, ou plus tard. Et il serait tellement stressé qu’il vomirait. Et puis il canalisait les choses que son père avait dites, utilisait des phrases que son père lui avait dites. Et c'est ce qu'elle m'a dit : au fond de l'homme se trouve cet enfant mâle, toujours debout devant son père.

LEX : Dans quelle mesure est-ce vrai pour beaucoup d'entre nous, pensez-vous ?

WALTER : Je pense que c'est vrai, mais de différentes manières. Je vais dire quelque chose de personnel, c'est que j'ai eu de la chance et c'est peut-être aussi un inconvénient, avec le fait que j'ai eu le meilleur père et la meilleure mère que vous puissiez imaginer. C'étaient les personnes les plus gentilles que l'on puisse rencontrer. J'ai grandi dans un endroit magique à la Nouvelle-Orléans. Mon père était ingénieur, ingénieur électricien. Et il a toujours été gentil. Peut-être que je ne suis pas aussi motivé ou aussi fou. Je n'ai pas à prouver les choses. Je peux donc écrire sur Elon Musk. J'écris sur Einstein, Steve Jobs ou Léonard de Vinci, qui, comme vous le savez, ont été totalement déchirés par des démons et ont vécu diverses situations d'enfance difficiles, même pas légitimées par son père. Alors parfois, ceux d'entre nous qui ont la chance d'avoir une enfance vraiment douce et douce, nous grandissons avec moins de démons, mais nous grandissons avec moins de pulsions et nous finissons peut-être par être Boswell et non pas le Dr Johnson. Nous finissons par être des observateurs et non des acteurs. Et donc je respecte toujours ceux qui sont dans l'arène.

LEX : Tu ne te vois pas comme un homme dans l'arène.

WALTER : J'ai eu une carrière douce et douce et je dois couvrir des gens vraiment intéressants, mais je n'ai jamais lancé de fusée qui pourrait un jour atteindre Mars. Je ne nous ai jamais amenés dans l'air des véhicules électriques. Je ne suis jamais resté éveillé toute la nuit dans une usine. Je n'ai pas tout à fait ces pulsions ou cette dépendance au risque. Je veux dire, Elon est accro au risque. Il est accro à l'aventure. Moi, si je vois quelque chose qui est risqué, je passe du temps à calculer, ok, c'est à l'envers là. Mais c'est une autre raison pour laquelle des gens comme Elon Musk font des choses et des gens comme moi écrivent sur les Elon Musk.

LEX : Un autre aspect de cela, étant donné une enfance difficile, que ce soit Elon ou DaVinci, je me demande si il y a une certaine sagesse, des conseils que l'on peut presque tirer, que l'on peut donner aux personnes qui ont eu une enfance difficile.

WALTER : Je pense que nous avons tous des démons, même ceux d'entre nous qui ont grandi dans une partie magique de La Nouvelle-Orléans avec des parents adorables. Nous avons tous des démons. La première règle de la vie est d’exploiter vos démons. Sachez que vous êtes ambitieux ou pas ambitieux ou que vous êtes paresseux ou autre. Leonardo DaVinci savait qu'il était un procrastinateur. Je pense qu'il est utile de savoir ce qu'on mange chez soi, de savoir comment l'exploiter.Sachez également dans quoi vous êtes doué. Je prendrai Musk comme autre exemple. Je ressemble un peu plus à Kimball Musk qu'à Elon. Je suis peut-être devenu trop doté du gène de l'empathie. Qu'est ce que çasignifier? Eh bien, ça veut dire que j'allais bien quand je dirigeais Time Magazine. Il y avait un groupe d'environ 150 personnes dans la rédaction et je les connaissais tous et nous avons passé un bon moment. Quand je suis allé à CNN, je n’étais pas très doué pour être manager ou cadre d’une organisation. Je tenais un peu trop à ce que les gens ne soient pas ennuyés ou en colère contre moi. Elon a dit cela à propos de John McNeil, par exemple, qui était président de Tesla. C'est dans le livre. J'ai parlé longtemps à John McNeil et il a dit : Elon licencierait simplement les gens. Il est vraiment dur avec les gens. Il n’avait pas l’empathie pour les gens en face de lui. Elon dit, ouais, c'est vrai. John McNeil ne pouvait pas licencier des gens. Il se souciait plus de plaire aux gens en face de lui que de plaire à l'ensemble de l'entreprise ou de faire avancer les choses. Être trop doté du désir de plaire aux gens peut faire de vous un manager moins coriace. Cela ne veut pas dire qu’il n’y a pas de gens formidables qui sont surdoués. Ben Franklin, trop doué du désir de plaire aux gens. La pire critique à son égard de la part de John Adams et d'autres était qu'il était insinuant, ce qui signifiait qu'il essayait toujours de faire en sorte que les gens l'apprécient. Mais cela s'est avéré être une bonne chose lorsqu'ils ne parviennent pas à comprendre la question du grand État ou du petit État lors de la Convention constitutionnelle, lorsqu'ils ne parviennent pas à comprendre le Traité de Paris, quel qu'il soit, il rassemble les gens et cela est son super pouvoir. Donc, pour revenir aux leçons que vous avez demandées, la première était d’exploiter vos démons. La seconde est de connaître vos points forts et votre super pouvoir. Mon super pouvoir n’est certainement pas d’être un manager coriace. Après avoir dirigé CNN pendant un certain temps, j'ai dit, d'accord, j'ai prouvé que je n'aimais pas vraiment ça et que je ne savais pas bien le faire. Est-ce que j'ai d'autres talents ? Oui, je pense que j'ai le talent d'observer les gens de très près, d'écrire sur eux dans un style narratif direct, mais j'espère intéressant. C'est un pouvoir. C'est totalement différent de diriger une organisation. Il m'a fallu attendre trois ans à la tête de CNN pour réaliser que je n'étais pas fait pour être un cadre dans des situations très intenses. Elon Musk est fait pour être un cadre dans des situations très intenses, à tel point que lorsque les choses deviennent moins intenses, quand ils fabriquent suffisamment de voitures et que les fusées montent et atterrissent, il pense à autre chose pour pouvoir surgir et avoir plus d'intensité. . Il est accro à l'intensité et c'est son super pouvoir, qui est bien plus grand que celui d'un bon observateur.

LEX : Mais je pense aussi que pour s'appuyer sur cela, il ne s'agit pas seulement d'une dépendance au risque et au drame. Il y a toujours une grande mission au-dessus. Je dirais donc que c'est une empathie envers les gens dans leur ensemble.

WALTER : C'est une empathie envers l'humanité plus que l'empathie envers les trois ou quatre humains qui pourraient être assis dans la salle de conférence avec vous. Et c'est un gros problème. Vous voyez cela chez beaucoup de gens. Vous le voyez, Bill Gates, Larry Summers, Elon Musk. Ils ont toujours de l’empathie pour ces grands objectifs de l’humanité. Et parfois, ils peuvent n’avoir aucune idée des émotions des personnes en face d’eux ou parfois être insensibles. Musk, comme vous l’avez dit, est motivé par la mission plus que quiconque que j’ai jamais vu. Et ce n'est pas seulement une mission, c'est comme des missions cosmiques, ce qui signifie qu'il a trois très grandes missions. La première consiste à faire des humains une civilisation spatiale, à faire de nous des multiplanétaires ou à nous amener sur Mars. Deuxièmement, nous faire entrer dans l’ère de l’énergie durable, dans l’ère des véhicules électriques, des toits et des batteries solaires. Et troisièmement, il faut s’assurer que l’intelligence artificielle est sûre et alignée sur les valeurs humaines. Et de temps en temps, je lui parlais et nous parlions des satellites Starlink ou autre. Ou bien il pousserait les gens devant lui à SpaceX et leur dirait que si vous faites cela, nous n'atteindrons jamais Mars de notre vivant. Et puis il donnerait une conférence sur l'importance pour la conscience humaine d'atteindre Mars de notre vivant. Et je me dis, d'accord, c'est le discours d'encouragement de quelqu'un qui essaie d'inspirer une équipe ou peut-être que c'est un type de pontification que vous faites sur un podcast. Mais la 20ème fois que je l'ai regardé, j'ai réalisé, d'accord, j'y crois. En fait, c'est ce qui le motive.

LEX : Il est frustré et en colère parce qu'à cause de cette décision technique mineure, la grande mission ne sera pas accomplie. Ce n'est pas un discours d'encouragement. C'est une véritable frustration.

WALTER : Et l'impatience, une frustration. Et c’est aussi probablement la chose la plus profondément ancrée en lui, c’est sa mission. Il m'a plaisanté à un moment donné en disant à quel point il aimait lire des bandes dessinées lorsqu'il était enfant. Et il a dit que tous les gens dans les bandes dessinées essayaient de sauver le monde, mais ils portaient leurs caleçons à l'extérieur et avaient l'air ridicules. Et puis il a fait une pause et a dit, mais ils essaient de sauver le monde.Et qu'il s'agisse de Starlink en Ukraine ou de Starship allant sur Mars ou d'essayer d'obtenir une nouvelle Tesla mondiale, je pense qu'il a ce sens épique du rôle qu'il va jouer pour aider l'humanité sur de grandes choses. Et commeles personnages des bandes dessinées, c'est parfois ridicule, mais c'est aussi parfois vrai.

LEX : Quand je lisais cette partie du livre, je pensais à tous les jeunes qui luttent ainsi . Et je pense que beaucoup de gens vivent des situations différentes, qu'ils grandissent sans père, qu'ils grandissent avec des abus physiques, émotionnels, mentaux ou des démons de toute sorte, comme vous l'avez mentionné. Et c'est vraiment douloureux à lire, mais aussi très inspirant, que si vous marchez côte à côte avec ces démons, si vous ne laissez pas cette douleur vous briser ou la canaliser d'une manière ou d'une autre, si vous pouvez le dire de cette façon, vous pouvez réaliser, vous pouvez faire de grandes choses dans ce monde.

WALTER : Eh bien, c'est une vision épique de la raison pour laquelle nous écrivons des biographies, qui est plus épique que ce à quoi je pensais. Alors je dis merci parce que d'une certaine manière, ce que vous essayez de faire, c'est de dire, d'accord, je veux dire, Leonardo, vous parlez d'être un inadapté, il est né illégitime dans le village de Vinci et il est gay et il est gaucher et il est distrait et son père ne veut pas le légitimer. Et puis il s'en va vers la ville de Florence et il devient le plus grand artiste et ingénieur de cette partie de la Renaissance. J'espère que ce livre inspire. Jennifer Doudna, la pionnière de l'édition génétique qui a aidé à découvrir CRISPR, l'outil d'édition génétique que mon livre, The Code Breaker, a grandi en se sentant inadaptée à Hawaï, dans un village polynésien, étant la seule personne blanche et essayant également d'être à la hauteur. un père qui l'a poussée. Donc, si les gens peuvent lire les livres, et j'aurais dû dire à propos de Jennifer Doudna, ce que je voulais dire, c'est que son conseiller d'orientation scolaire lui a dit : non, les filles ne font pas de sciences. Vous savez, la science n'est pas pour les filles. Vous n'allez pas faire de mathématiques ou de sciences. Et donc ça la pousse à dire, d'accord, je vais faire des mathématiques et des sciences.

LEX : Juste pour vous interrompre très rapidement, mais Jennifer Doudna, vous avez écrit un livre incroyable sur elle, Nobel. Lauréat, développeur CRISPR, tout simplement incroyable, l'un des grands scientifiques du 21e siècle.

WALTER : C'est vrai. Et je parle de l'époque où Jennifer Doudna était jeune et elle se sentait vraiment, vraiment pas à sa place, comme vous et moi et beaucoup de gens quand ils ressentent cela, ils lisent des livres, ils se blottissent avec le livre. . Alors son père laisse tomber sur son lit un livre intitulé The Double Helix, le livre de James Watson sur la découverte de la structure de l'ADN par lui, Rosalind Franklin et Francis Crick. Et elle se rend compte, oh mon Dieu, que les filles peuvent devenir scientifiques. Mon conseiller d'orientation scolaire se trompe. Je pense donc que les livres, comme elle a lu ce livre, et même s'il s'agit d'une bande dessinée, comme celle qu'Elon Musk a lu, les livres peuvent parfois vous inspirer. Et chacun de mes livres parle de personnes totalement innovantes, qui n'étaient pas seulement intelligentes, car aucun d'entre nous ne sera capable d'égaler Einstein et sa puissance de traitement mental. Mais nous pouvons être aussi curieux et créatifs que lui et sortir des sentiers battus comme il l’a fait, ou comme l’a dit Steve Jobs, penser différemment. Et donc j'espère qu'avec mes livres, je dis que ce n'est pas un guide pratique, mais c'est quelqu'un avec qui vous pouvez marcher. Vous pouvez voir Einstein grandir juif en Allemagne. Vous pouvez voir Jennifer Doudna grandir comme une étrangère, ou Léonard de Vinci ou Elon Musk dans une Afrique du Sud très violente avec un père psychologiquement difficile. Et en descendant du train, quand il va à un concert contre l'apartheid avec son frère, il y a un homme avec un couteau qui sort de sa tête, et ils entrent dans la mare de sang et cela colle à leurs âmes. Cela provoque des cicatrices qui dureront le reste de votre vie. Et la question n’est pas de savoir comment éviter d’avoir des cicatrices ? Comment gérez-vous cela ?

LEX : Einstein aussi, l'un de mes, et c'est difficile de choisir ma préférée parmi vos biographies, mais Einstein, je veux dire, vous dressez vraiment le portrait d'un autre, je ne le fais pas. Je ne veux pas le qualifier d'inadapté, mais de personne qui n'a pas nécessairement une trajectoire standard dans une vie de réussite. C'est donc extrêmement inspirant. Je ne sais pas exactement quelle question poser. Il y en a un million.

WALTER : Eh bien, je vais parler des inadaptés pendant une seconde, parce que nous avons parlé de Leonardo comme étant ainsi. Einstein est juif en Allemagne à une époque où les choses commencent à devenir difficiles. Il apprend lentement à parler et c'est un penseur visuel. Alors il rêve toujours et imagine des choses. La première fois qu'il postule à l'école polytechnique de Zurich, c'est parce qu'il fuit le système éducatif allemand parce que c'est trop d'apprentissage par cœur. Il est rejeté par l'école polytechnique de Zurich. Aujourd'hui, c'est la deuxième meilleure école de Zurich et ils rejettent Einstein. J'ai essayé de trouver, mais je n'ai pas pu trouver le nom du conseiller d'admission de l'Ecole Polytechnique de Zurich. Comme si tu avais rejeté Einstein. Et puis il ne termine pas dans la première moitié de sa classe. Et une fois qu'il l'a fait et qu'il a fait des études supérieures, ils n'acceptent pas sa thèse.Il ne peut donc pas trouver de travail. Il ne l'enseigne pas. Il a même essayé environ 14 lycées et gymnases différents pour trouver un emploi et ils ne l'ont pas accepté. Donc c'est une troisième classeexaminateur à l'Office suisse des brevets en 1905. Troisième classe parce qu'on a rejeté sa thèse de doctorat. Et donc il ne peut pas être de deuxième ou de première classe parce qu’il n’a pas de doctorat. Et pourtant, il est assis sur le tabouret du bureau des brevets en 1905 et écrit trois articles qui transforment totalement la science. Et si vous pensez avoir été incompris ou sous-estimé en 1906, il s'agit toujours d'un brevet de troisième classe. En 1907, il l'est toujours. Il a fallu attendre 1909 avant que les gens réalisent que cette notion de théorie de la relativité pourrait être correcte et qu'elle pourrait bouleverser toute la physique newtonienne.

LEX : Comment est-il possible que trois des plus grands articles de l'histoire des sciences être écrit en un an par cette seule personne ? Y a-t-il des idées, des sagesses que vous tirez ?

WALTER : De plus, il est examinateur de brevets en dehors de son travail quotidien. Et il y a en réalité trois articles, mais il y a aussi un addendum parce qu'une fois que vous avez compris la théorie quantique, puis que vous avez compris la relativité et que vous comprenez les équations de Maxwell et la vitesse de la lumière, il fait un petit addendum. C’est l’équation la plus célèbre de toute la physique, qui est E égale MC au carré. C'est donc une plutôt bonne année. Cela commence en partie parce qu'il est un penseur visuel. Et je pense qu'il était utile qu'il soit au bureau des brevets plutôt que d'être l'acolyte d'un professeur à l'académie où il était censé suivre les règles. Et donc l'Office des brevets a dit de créer des dispositifs pour synchroniser les horloges parce que les Suisses viennent de passer aux fuseaux horaires standard et que les Suisses, comme vous le savez, ont tendance à être plutôt Suisses. Ils se soucient que si l'heure sonne à Bâle, elle devrait faire de même et brûler à la fin exacte. Il faut donc envoyer un signal lumineux entre deux horloges distantes. Et il visualise à quoi cela ressemblera de rouler à côté d'un faisceau lumineux. Il dit, eh bien, si vous le rattrapez, si vous allez presque aussi vite, il aura l'air stationnaire. Mais les équations de Maxwell ne permettent pas cela. Et il a dit, il me fait transpirer la paume à cause de mon inquiétude. Et donc il comprend finalement, parce qu'il examine ces appareils pour synchroniser les horloges, que si vous voyagez très, très vite, ce qui vous semble synchrone ou synchronisé est différent de celui d'une personne voyageant très vite dans l'autre sens. Et il fait un saut mental à ce moment-là : la vitesse de la lumière est toujours constante, mais le temps est relatif en fonction de votre état de mouvement. C’est donc ce genre de réflexion originale, ces bonds en avant qui ont fait de 1905 son année miracle. De même avec Musk, je veux dire, après General Motors et Ford, tout le monde abandonne les véhicules électriques pour simplement dire : je sais comment nous allons trouver un chemin pour changer la trajectoire entière du monde vers l'ère des véhicules électriques. Et puis, quand il revient de Russie, où il a essayé d'acheter une petite fusée pour pouvoir envoyer une serre expérimentale sur Mars, et ils se moquaient d'eux et leur crachaient même dessus à un moment donné lors d'un déjeuner arrosé. C'est très fortuit car lors du retour à la maison dans l'avion, sur le vol Delta Airlines, il fait comme si il faisait des calculs pour déterminer la quantité de matériaux, la quantité de métal, la quantité de carburant, combien cela coûterait réellement. Et donc il visualise des choses que d’autres diraient simplement impossibles. C'est ce que les amis de Steve Jobs appelaient le champ de distorsion de la réalité. Et ça rendait les gens fous. Cela les rendait fous, mais cela les poussait aussi à faire des choses qu'ils ne pensaient pas pouvoir faire.

LEX : Vous avez parlé de pensée visuelle. Je me demande si vous avez vu des parallèles entre les différents styles et types de pensée qui animent l'esprit de ces personnes. Alors, voyez-vous des parallèles entre Elon, Steve Jobs, Einstein, Da Vinci, en particulier dans leur façon de penser ?

WALTER : Je pense qu'ils étaient tous des penseurs visuels, peut-être issus de légers handicaps lorsqu'ils étaient enfants, ce qui signifie que Leonardo était gaucher et un peu dyslexique, je pense. Et certainement, Einstein avait une callia. Il répétait les choses. Il a mis du temps à apprendre à parler. Je pense donc que la visualisation aide beaucoup. Et avec Musk, je le vois tout le temps lorsque je parcoure les chaînes d'usine avec lui ou lors du développement de produits, où il regarde, par exemple, le bouclier thermique sous le moteur Raptor d'un propulseur de Starship. Et il dira : pourquoi faut-il qu'il en soit ainsi ? Ne pourrions-nous pas le couper de cette façon ? Ou même se débarrasser de cette partie. Et il peut visualiser la science des matériaux. Il y a de petites anecdotes dans mon livre, mais à un moment donné, il est sur la ligne Tesla et ils essaient d'obtenir 5 000 voitures par semaine en 2018. C'est une situation de vie ou de mort. Et il regarde les machines qui boulonnent quelque chose au châssis. Et Lars Moravey, un de ses grands lieutenants, arrive et ils doivent le convoquer. Et il dit : pourquoi y a-t-il six boulons ici ? Et Lars et d'autres ont expliqué, eh bien, pour les crash tests ou quoi que ce soit d'autre, la pression serait de cette façon, donc il faut le faire.Et ils étaient bla, bla, bla, bla, bla. Et il a dit non. Si vous le visualisez, vous verrez s'il y a un crash, la force disparaîtraitde cette façon et de cette façon. Et cela peut être fait avec quatre boulons. Maintenant, cela semble risqué. Et ils vont le tester et le conçoivent, mais il s’avère que c’est vrai. Je sais que cela semble mineur, mais je pourrais vous en donner 500, où, chaque jour, il visualise la physique d'un problème d'ingénierie ou de fabrication. Cela semble assez banal. Mais pour moi, si vous dites ce qui le rend spécial, il y a une question de mission. Je vous donne beaucoup de raisons, mais l'une des raisons est qu'il ne se soucie pas seulement de la conception du produit, mais aussi de la visualisation de la fabrication du produit, de la machine qui fabrique la machine. Et c’est ce que nous n’avons pas réussi à faire en Amérique au cours des 40 dernières années. Nous sous-traitons énormément de fabrication. Je ne pense pas que l'on puisse être un bon innovateur si l'on ne sait pas comment réaliser ce que l'on conçoit. Et c'est pourquoi Musk place le bureau de son designer juste à côté des chaînes de montage dans les usines afin qu'ils puissent visualiser ce qu'ils ont dessiné au fur et à mesure qu'il devient l'objet physique.

LEX : Donc tout comprendre, depuis la physique jusqu'au bout. jusqu'au logiciel, c'est comme de bout en bout.

WALTER : Eh bien, avoir un contrôle de bout en bout est important, certainement avec Steve Jobs. Je regarde mon iPhone ici. C'est une grosse affaire. Ce matériel ne fonctionne qu'avec les logiciels Apple et, pendant un certain temps, l'iTunes Store. Il a donc un bout à bout qui en fait un jardin zen à Kyoto, très soigneusement organisé, mais de toute beauté. Pour Musk, lorsqu’il était chez Tesla pour la première fois et avant d’en devenir PDG, alors qu’il n’était que président exécutif et essentiellement financier, ils externalisaient tout. Ils fabriquaient les batteries au Japon et la batterie se trouvait dans un magasin de barbecue en Thaïlande et était envoyée à l'usine Lotus en Angleterre pour être installée dans un châssis Lotus Elise, puis mentionnée. C'était un cauchemar. Vous n’aviez pas le contrôle de bout en bout du processus de fabrication. Alors il va à l’autre extrême. Il obtient une usine à Fremont de Toyota et il veut tout faire en interne, les logiciels en interne, la peinture en interne, la batterie. Il fabrique ses propres batteries. Et je pense que ce contrôle de bout en bout fait partie de sa personnalité. Mais cela permettrait également à Tesla d'être innovant.

LEX : Oui, j'ai pu voir et comprendre en détail un exemple de cela, qui est le développement du cerveau de la voiture en pilote automatique, depuis l'œil mobile. à la construction en interne du système de pilote automatique, à l'élimination de tous les capteurs qui ne sont pas riches en données pour le rendre convivial pour l'IA, en quelque sorte en disant que nous pouvons tout faire avec la vision. Et comme vous l'avez dit, en retirant certains boulons. Donc parfois ce sont de petites choses, mais parfois ce sont de très grandes choses comme se débarrasser du radar.

WALTER : Eh bien, la simple vision de se débarrasser du radar est énorme et tout le monde est contre. Tout le monde. Et c'est encore un peu un combat. Ils essaient toujours de créer une prochaine génération, une forme de radar, mais cela revient aux principes premiers. Nous parlons de visualisation. Eh bien, il commence par les premiers principes et les premiers principes de la physique impliquent des choses comme ce que les humains conduisent avec uniquement une entrée visuelle. Ils n'ont pas de radar. Ils n'ont pas de LIDAR. Ils n'ont pas de sonar. Il n'y avait donc aucune raison, dans les lois de la physique, de faire en sorte que la vision seule ne réussisse pas à créer une conduite autonome. Maintenant, cela devient pour lui un article de foi et il subit de nombreuses critiques. Et d'ailleurs, il n'a pas réussi à respecter ses délais pour devenir autonome. Il est bien trop optimiste, mais c'était le premier principe de se débarrasser des choses inutiles. Maintenant, on pourrait penser que LIDAR, pourquoi ne pas l'utiliser ? Pourquoi ne pas utiliser un béguin ? C'est comme si, oui, nous ne pouvions faire des choses que par vision, mais quand je regarde les étoiles la nuit, j'utilise aussi un télescope. Eh bien, vous pourriez utiliser le LIDAR, mais vous ne pouvez pas fabriquer des millions de voitures de cette façon à grande échelle. À un moment donné, il faut non seulement en faire un bon produit, mais aussi un produit qui puisse être mis à l'échelle. Et vous ne pouvez pas le faire sur la base de cartes comme Google Maps, car il ne pourra jamais ensuite conduire de la Nouvelle-Orléans à Slidell, où je veux aller quand il fait trop chaud à la Nouvelle-Orléans. Prenons par exemple la conduite entièrement autonome. Il est obsédé par ce qu'il appelle le robot-taxi. Nous allons construire la voiture de nouvelle génération sans volant, sans pédales, car elle sera entièrement autonome. Vous venez de l'invoquer. Vous n'aurez pas besoin de le conduire. Eh bien, encore et encore, tous ces gens dont je vous ai parlé, Lars Morave et Drew Baglino et d'autres, disent : « ok, très bien, ça a l'air vraiment bien, mais ce n'est pas encore arrivé. Nous devons construire une voiture mondiale de masse à 25 000 $ qui soit tout simplement normale avec un volant. Et oui, il s'est finalement retourné il y a quelques mois et a dit : allons-y.Et puis il commence à se concentrer sur la façon dont la chaîne de montage va fonctionner ? Comment allons-nous le faire et en faire la même plate-forme pour les robots-taxi afin que vous puissiez avoir le même assemblage. De même, pour une conduite entièrement autonome, ils le faisaient en codant des centaines dedes milliers de lignes de code qui diraient des choses comme, si vous voyez un feu rouge, arrêtez-vous. S'il y a une lumière clignotante, s'il y a deux lignes jaunes, faites ceci. S'il y a une piste cyclable, faites ceci. S'il y a un passage pour piétons, faites-le. Eh bien, c'est vraiment difficile à faire. Naly le fait uniquement grâce à l'intelligence artificielle et à l'apprentissage automatique. FSD12 sera basé sur environ un milliard d'images de Tesla chaque semaine de conducteurs de Tesla et demandera : que s'est-il passé lorsqu'un humain se trouvait dans cette situation ? Qu'a fait l'humain ? Et ne choisissons que les meilleurs humains, les chauffeurs cinq étoiles, les chauffeurs Uber, comme le dit Elon. Et donc c'est lui qui change d'avis et revient sur les premiers principes, mais dit, d'accord, je vais même changer de conduite entièrement autonome. Ce n’est donc pas basé sur des règles. Cela devient basé sur l’IA. Tout comme ChatGPT n'essaie pas de répondre à votre question, qui sont les cinq meilleurs papes ou quelque chose du genre en étudiant ? ChatGPT y parvient en ingérant des milliards d’écrits rédigés par des personnes. Ce sera de l'IA, mais le monde réel sera réalisé en ingérant de la vidéo.

LEX : Parfois, on a l'impression que lui et d'autres, ils construisent des choses dans ce monde avec succès, explorent en toute confiance une pièce sombre avec un esprit très confiant. , vision ambitieuse de ce à quoi ressemble réellement cette pièce. Ils marchent tout droit dans l'obscurité. Il n'y a pas de jouets douloureux ni de Legos au sol. Je vais juste marcher. Je sais exactement à quelle distance se trouve le mur. Et puis très vite, prêts à s'adapter au fur et à mesure qu'ils se heurtent, ils marchent sur les Lego et leur corps est rempli de beaucoup de douleur. Ce que je veux dire par là, c'est qu'il y a ce genre d'évolution qui semble se produire où vous découvrez de très bonnes idées en cours de route qui vous permettent de pivoter. Comme pour moi, depuis quelques années, quand on a pu voir avec Andrei Karpathy, l'évolution du logiciel 2 .0 du pilote automatique, il m'est devenu évident qu'il ne s'agissait pas de la voiture. Il s'agit d'Optimus, le robot. Si nous regardons en arrière dans cent ans, la voiture restera dans les mémoires comme une voiture cool, un moyen de transport agréable, mais le pilote automatique ne sera pas celui qui contrôle la voiture. Ce sera ce qui permettra aux systèmes d’IA incarnés de comprendre le monde. De manière générale, ce genre d’approche et vous y tombez en quelque sorte. Tesla sera-t-il un constructeur automobile ? S'agira-t-il d'une entreprise d'IA ? S'agira-t-il d'une entreprise de robotique ? S'agira-t-il d'une entreprise de robotique domestique ? S’agira-t-il d’une entreprise énergétique ? Et puis vous découvrez cela lentement à mesure que vous avancez avec confiance avec une vision. C'est intéressant d'observer ce genre d'évolution tant qu'elle est soutenue par cette confiance.

WALTER : Il y a quelques choses qui sont nécessaires pour cela. L’un est aventureux. On n'entre pas dans une pièce sombre sans lampe de poche et sans carte, sauf si vous prenez des risques, si vous êtes aventureux. La seconde consiste à avoir des cycles cérébraux itératifs dans lesquels vous pouvez traiter les informations, créer une boucle de rétroaction et la faire fonctionner. La troisième, et c'est ce que nous n'avons pas réussi à faire souvent aux États-Unis et peut-être dans le monde entier, c'est que lorsque l'on prend des risques, il faut se rendre compte que l'on va faire exploser les choses. Les trois premières fusées, les fusées Falcon que fabrique la NASA, explosent. Même Starship, trois minutes et demie, mais ensuite il explose du premier coup. Je pense donc que Boeing, la NASA et d’autres ne sont plus disposés à entrer dans votre pièce sombre sans savoir exactement où se trouve la sortie et le chemin éclairé menant à la sortie. Et les gens qui ont créé l’Amérique à chaque fois qu’ils sont venus ici, que les Mayflower soient des réfugiés des nazis, ont pris beaucoup de risques pour arriver ici. Et maintenant, je pense que nous avons plus d'arbitres que de preneurs de risques, plus d'avocats, de régulateurs et d'autres qui disent que vous ne pouvez pas faire cela, c'est trop risqué, que de personnes prêtes à innover. Et il vous faut les deux. Je pense que vous avez également raison sur le fait que dans 50 ou 100 ans, ce dont on se souviendra le plus de Musk, outre les voyages dans l'espace, c'est l'IA du monde réel. Pas seulement Optimus le robot, mais Optimus le robot et la voiture autonome, ce sont à peu près les mêmes. Ils utilisent des clusters GPU ou des puces dojo ou quoi que ce soit pour traiter des données du monde réel. Nous sommes tous devenus, et vous l'avez fait sur votre podcast, très enthousiasmés par le grand modèle de langage, l'IA de texte prédictive générative. C'est très bien, surtout si vous souhaitez discuter avec votre chatbot. Mais le Saint Graal est l’intelligence artificielle générale. Et le plus difficile, c’est l’IA du monde réel. Et c'est là qu'Optimus, le robot ou l'autopilotage complet, sont, je pense, loin devant tout le monde.

LEX : Eh bien, j'aime la façon dont vous avez dit bavardage. Je dirais que pour l'un des plus grands écrivains de tous les temps, c'est drôle que vous parliez du langage et de la maîtrise des langues comme de simples bavardages. Les gens sont tombés amoureux de quelques mots. Les gens se sont fait la guerre pour quelques mots. Je pense que les mots ont beaucoup de pouvoir.C'est en fait une question intéressante : la sagesse du monde, la sagesse de l'humanité est-elle dans les mots ou dans les visuels, est-elle dans le physique ? Je ne sais pas vraiment. C'est en mathématiques. Peut-être que tout se résume à des mathématiques et qu'en fin de compte, ce genre de discussion sur le réelL'IA mondiale et le langage, c'est peut-être la même chose. J'ai récemment eu la chance de passer pas mal de temps dans le métaverse avec M. Mark Zuckerberg et le garçon est le réalisme là-dedans. Ce qui va se passer dans le futur est incroyable. J'ai été scanné à Pittsburgh pendant 10 heures. Je suis entré dans le métaverse et il y a une version virtuelle de moi et j'ai pu passer du temps avec cette version virtuelle. Est-ce que vous vous aimez ? Eh bien, je ne me suis jamais aimé, mais c'était plus facile d'aimer cet autre gars. C'était intéressant. Est-ce qu'il vous aime? Il ne semble pas s'en soucier beaucoup.

WALTER : C'est le manque d'empathie.

LEX : Cela m'a fait commencer à me demander encore plus qu'avant : quelle est l'importance de cette réalité physique ? Parce que j'ai pu me voir et voir d'autres personnes dans ce métaverse, les détails du visage, toutes les choses que vous pensez, peut-être que si vous vous regardez dans le miroir, ce sont des imperfections, tout ce genre de choses. Quand je me regarde et regarde les autres, toutes ces choses sont belles. C'était réel et c'était intense et effrayant parce que vous vous dites, eh bien, êtes-vous autorisé à assassiner des gens dans le métaverse ? Car qu’est-ce que tu as le droit de faire ? Parce que vous pouvez reproduire beaucoup de ces choses et vous commencez à vous demander quelles sont les choses fondamentales qui font que la vie vaut la peine d'être vécue ici, car nous savons que ce sont des humains.

WALTER : Avez-vous parlé à Elon de son point de vue sur ce que vit dans une simulation et comment détermineriez-vous si c'est vrai ?

LEX : Oui, il y a un sentiment constant de légèreté, mais aussi un sérieux sentiment que tout cela n'est qu'un jeu.

WALTER : Une de mes théories sur Elon, une théorie mineure, est qu'il a lu le Guide du voyageur galactique une fois de trop. Comme vous le savez, il y a une scène là-dedans qui dit qu'il existe une théorie sur l'univers selon laquelle si quelqu'un découvre les secrets des significations de l'univers, il sera remplacé par un univers encore plus complexe. Ensuite, la ligne suivante qu'écrit Douglas Adams est qu'il existe une autre théorie selon laquelle cela s'est déjà produit. Je n’essaie pas de comprendre cela, mais je sais qu’Elon Musk essaie de le faire. Il y a de l'humour là-dedans. Il y a un énorme humour dans Hitchhiker's Guide. Je pense vraiment que cela a aidé Musk à sortir des périodes les plus sombres de ses périodes et à avoir le sentiment de s'amuser en découvrant ce qu'est la vie.

LEX : Je me demande s'il y a un côté plus petit que nous pourrions dire, le simple fait d'avoir compris très bien connaître Elon, la bêtise, la volonté de s'engager dans l'absurdité de tout cela et de s'amuser. Qu'est-ce que c'est? Est-ce juste une bizarrerie de personnalité ou est-ce un aspect fondamental d'un être humain qui dirige plus de six entreprises ?

WALTER : Eh bien, c'est une soupape de sécurité, tout comme les jeux vidéo, la polytopie et Elden Ring, une soupape de décharge pour lui. Il a un sens de l'humour explosif, comme vous le savez. Ce qui est étrange, c'est quand il fait la transition brusque du mode démon sombre et que vous êtes dans la salle de conférence et qu'il est vraiment contrarié par quelque chose. Non seulement il y a des vibrations sombres, mais il y a des mots sombres qui émanent et il dit, votre démission sera acceptée si vous mourez, etc. Puis quelque chose apparaît et il sort son téléphone et sort un sketch de Bonnie Pythons comme The School of Silly Walks ou quel que soit John Cleese. Il recommence à rire et tout se brise. C'est presque comme s'il avait différents modes, l'émulation du mode humain, le mode ingénierie, le mode sombre et démon, et il y a certainement le mode idiot et vertigineux.

LEX : Ouais, vous avez en fait ouvert le livre d'Elon avec des citations d'Elon et de Steve Jobs. Donc, la citation d'Elon est, à tous ceux que j'ai offensés, je veux juste dire, c'est sur SNL, je veux juste dire, j'ai réinventé les voitures électriques et j'envoie des gens sur Mars à bord d'une fusée. Tu pensais aussi que j'allais être un mec cool et normal ? Et puis la citation de Steve Jobs, bien sûr, c'est que les gens qui sont assez fous pour penser qu'ils peuvent changer le monde sont ceux qui le font. Alors, selon vous, quel est le rôle de la vieille folie et du génie ? Selon vous, quel est le rôle du fou dans tout cela ?

WALTER : Eh bien, tout d'abord, stipulons tous les deux que Musk est parfois fou. Je veux dire, et ensuite voyons, et j'essaie de le faire à travers la narration, pas à travers l'hyphilie et la prédication, où cette folie fonctionne. Raconte-moi une histoire, raconte-moi une anecdote, dis-moi où il est fou. Et le dernier exemple, AI, mais il tire sur Starship pour la première fois, entre un compte à rebours avorté et le shoot-off, il se rend à Miami pour une conférence de vente de publicités et rencontre Linda Iaccarino pour la première fois, en fait la PDG. . Je veux dire, il est très impulsif. Puis il revient, ils lancent Starship, et vous réalisez qu'il y a une motivation, qu'il y a des démons et qu'il y a aussi de la folie. Et vous avez parfois envie de les retirer. Vous voulez lui retirer son téléphone pour qu'il ne tweete pas à 3 heures du matin.Tu as envie de dire, arrête d'être si fou. Mais ensuite, vous réalisez qu'il y a une merveilleuse réplique de Shakespeare dans Mesure pour mesure à la toute fin. Il dit que même les meilleurs sont façonnés à partir de défauts. Et ainsion prend par exemple les défauts de Musk, qui incluent une folie qui peut être attachante, mais aussi une folie qui ressemble à un fou, ainsi que ce mode pulsion et démon. Je ne sais pas si on peut retirer ce brin du tissu et que le tissu reste entier.

LEX : Je me demande, parfois cela m'attriste que nous vivions dans une société qui ne célèbre même pas le plus sombre des aspects fous en reconnaissant que tout est livré dans un seul paquet. C'est l'homme dans l'arène contre le critique.

WALTER : Et l'homme dans l'arène contre le régulateur pour rendre les choses plus prosaïques.

LEX : Eh bien, permettez-moi de vous poser une question non seulement sur le fou, mais la cruauté. Vous avez donc écrit un reportage sur Steve Jobs. On vous a dit que la grande question à poser était : devait-il être si méchant, si dur et cruel, si accro au drame ? Quelle est cette réponse pour Steve Jobs ? Fallait-il être si cruel ?

WALTER : Pour Jobs, j'ai demandé Était à la fin de mon reportage, parce que c'est ce qu'il a dit au début, nous sommes en train de lancer, je pense, l'iPad 2, c’est peut-être le cas. Steve est émacié parce qu'il a été malade. Et alors je dis à Was, quelle est la réponse à ta question ? Et il a dit : eh bien, si j'avais dirigé Apple, j'aurais été plus gentil avec tout le monde. Tout le monde s'est retrouvé coincé. Nous étions comme une famille. Et puis je ne sais pas si tu sais Was, c'est comme un ours en peluche. Il a fait une pause, il a souri et il a dit, mais si j'avais dirigé Apple, je ne pense pas que nous aurions fait le Macintosh ou l'iPhone. Alors oui, il faut parfois être dur. Et Jobs a dit la même chose que Must m'a dit, à savoir que les gens comme vous adorent porter des gants de velours. Maintenant, je ne sais pas si j'ai souvent porté des gants de velours, mais vous aimez que les gens vous aiment, vous aimez parler gentiment, vous enrobez de sucre. Il dit : je ne suis qu'un enfant de la classe ouvrière et je n'ai pas ce luxe. Si quelque chose craint, je dois le dire aux gens. Ou j'ai une équipe de joueurs B. Eh bien, Musk est aussi comme ça. Et cela revient à ce que j'ai dit plus tôt, c'est-à-dire que oui, je porterais probablement des gants de velours si je pouvais les trouver chez mon mercier. Et j’essaie d’édulcorer les choses. Mais lorsque je dirigeais CNN, il fallait la remodeler. Il fallait le casser. Il fallait faire exploser certaines choses. Et je ne l'ai pas fait. C'est tellement mauvais pour moi, mais ça m'a fait réaliser, d'accord, je vais juste écrire sur les gens qui peuvent le faire.

LEX : Eh bien, cette chose à dire, je pense que c'est probablement les deux, mais Elon Dire des choses comme ça est certainement la chose la plus stupide que j'ai jamais entendue.

WALTER : Au fait, j'ai entendu Jeff Bezos dire ça. J'ai entendu Bill Gates dire cela. J'ai entendu Steve Jobs le dire. J'ai entendu Steve Jobs le dire à propos d'un smoothie. Ils en faisaient un fruit entier ou quelque chose comme ça. Ils utilisent très souvent le mot stupide.

LEX : Et vous savez qui d'autre l'a utilisé ?

WALTER : Errol Musk. Il a continué à cuisiner. Elon se tient devant lui et dit, c'est la chose la plus stupide. Tu es la personne la plus stupide. Vous ne réussirez jamais à rien. Je ne sais pas. Comme l’a dit John McNeil, le président de Tesla, devez-vous être ainsi ? Probablement pas. Il y a beaucoup de gens qui réussissent qui sont beaucoup plus gentils, mais il est parfois nécessaire d'être beaucoup plus brutalement honnête, je dirais, que les gens comme ceux qui le sont lorsqu'ils remportent les trophées du patron de l'année.

LEX : Eh bien, comme vous l’avez dit, ce genre d’idée envoyait aussi un signal. Cette idée de Steve Jobs de huit joueurs, elle a effectivement envoyé un signal à tout le monde. C'était une sorte d'encouragement pour tous ceux qui étaient présents.

WALTER : C'est vrai. Et c'est arrivé à Twitter. Lorsque nous sommes allés au siège de Twitter la veille du rachat, Andrew et James, ses deux jeunes cousins et d'autres personnes de l'équipe de pilote automatique, examinaient des lignes de code. Et Musk lui-même était assis là avec un ordinateur portable au deuxième étage du bâtiment, regardant les lignes de code écrites par les ingénieurs de Twitter. Et ils ont décidé qu'ils allaient licencier 85 % d'entre eux parce qu'ils devaient être tous impliqués. Et cette notion de sécurité psychologique, de jours de congé mental et de travail à distance, a-t-il dit non plus. Et puis c'est arrivé, en fait l'un des siens, je pense que c'était l'un de ses cousins ou peut-être que Ross Nordine a eu l'idée de ne pas être si dur et de virer tous ces gens. Demandons-leur : voulez-vous vraiment être à fond ? Parce que ça va être hardcore. Ça va être intense. Vous pouvez choisir, mais d'ici minuit ce soir, nous voulons que vous cochiez la case. Je suis hardcore, all in, je serai là en personne, je travaillerai, tu sais, ou ce n'est pas pour moi. J'ai une famille, j'ai un équilibre entre le travail et vous avez différents types de personnes et différentes étapes de leur vie. J'étais un peu plus hardcore et à fond quand j'avais la vingtaine et quand j'avais, vous savez, la cinquantaine.

LEX : Ouais.Et vous écrivez sur cette très bonne idée en fait, qu'il y a deux camps et vous découvrez, je ne le sais pas, je me demande à quel point c'est vrai. Cela sonne vrai. Vous pouvez simplement demander aux gens : dans quel camp êtes-vous ? Êtes-vous le genre de personne qui récompenseeux-mêmes, qui aiment rester éveillés jusqu'à 2 heures du matin. programmation ou autre ? Ou voyez-vous la valeur des guillemets, vous savez, sur la vie, l'équilibre entre vie professionnelle et vie privée, tout ce genre de choses. Et c'est intéressant. Je veux dire, comme vous pourriez le faire, les gens se divisent probablement en différentes étapes de la vie et vous pouvez simplement leur demander et il est logique que certaines entreprises, à certaines étapes de leur développement, se disent : nous ne voulons que des gens inconditionnels.

WALTER : Ou certaines équipes. Il n’est même pas nécessaire qu’il s’agisse d’une entreprise entière. Et tu as raison. Cela rejoint ce que je disais à propos de la règle. Le premier secret est en quelque sorte que connais-toi toi-même vient évidemment de Platon et que tout vient de Platon et de Socrate, mais et décide de cette étape de ma vie. Est-ce que je veux participer à un hackathon toute la nuit et changer le monde ? Ou est-ce que je veux apporter sagesse et stabilité, mais aussi avoir un équilibre ? Je pense que c'est bien d'avoir différentes entreprises avec des styles différents. Le problème était que Twitter se trouvait presque à un extrême avec les studios de yoga et les jours de congé pour la santé mentale et consacrait la sécurité psychologique comme l'un des mantras selon lesquels les gens ne devraient jamais se sentir psychologiquement menacés. Et lui, je me souviens du rire amer qu'il déclenchait en entendant ce mot. Il a dit non, j'aime les mots hardcore. J'aime l'intensité. J’aime le sentiment d’urgence intense comme principe de fonctionnement. Eh bien, oui, il y a des gens comme ça aussi.

LEX : Alors sachez qui vous êtes et quel type d'équipe vous souhaitez constituer. Contre la sécurité psychologique et trop d'oiseaux partout. Oh ouais.

WALTER : Souvent, Musk a fait des choses et je me demande, qu'est-ce que c'est ? Et parmi eux, il y avait le changement du nom de Twitter et la suppression des oiseaux. J'ai dit : Hé mec, on a beaucoup investi dans cette marque. Mais quand je l'ai regardé, il s'est dit, d'accord, ces doux petits oiseaux gazouillants qui tweetent au nom de Twitter, ce n'est pas du hardcore. Ce n'est pas intense. Et donc, pour le meilleur et pour le pire, je pense qu'il fait entrer les artistes dans le domaine du hardcore avec des gens qui publient des choses hardcore, avec des gens qui ont des opinions hardcore. Ce n’est pas un parc poli pour l’élite ointe aux carreaux bleus. Et je me suis dit, d'accord, ça va être mauvais. Tout va s’effondrer. Eh bien, il y a eu des problèmes, mais son intensité extrême a également signifié que de nouvelles choses se produisent là-bas. C'est donc tout à fait Elon Musk de ne pas aimer cette douceur des oiseaux gazouillant et tweetant et disant : je veux quelque chose de plus hardcore.

LEX : Comme vous l'avez écrit en faisant référence au précédent PDG de Twitter, Elon a déclaré que Twitter avait besoin d'un dragon cracheur de feu. Je pense que c'est une bonne occasion de revenir peut-être sur certains des moments mémorables de la saga Twitter, comme vous l'avez longuement écrit dans votre livre, depuis les premiers jours de réflexion sur l'acquisition jusqu'à la façon dont elle s'est déroulée jusqu'aux détails de, comme vous avez mentionné, les équipes d'ingénierie.

WALTER : Eh bien, début 2022, il avait le vent en poupe, mais comme on dit, c'est un accro au théâtre. Il n'aime pas fantôme. Et Tesla a vendu un million de véhicules. Je pense que 33 boosters Falcon 9 ont été abattus et ont atterri en toute sécurité au cours des derniers mois. Et il était la personne la plus riche du monde et la personne de l’année. Et pourtant, avait-il dit, j'ai toujours envie de remettre tous mes jetons sur la table. Je veux continuer à prendre des risques. Je ne veux pas savourer les choses. Il avait vendu toutes ses maisons. Il commence donc à acheter secrètement des actions de Twitter. Janvier, février et mars deviennent publics à un moment donné. Je ne sais pas si je dois le déclarer. Et nous étions ici à Austin, chez Gigafactory, sur la mezzanine. Et il essayait de comprendre, eh bien, où dois-je aller à partir de maintenant ? Et à ce moment-là, début avril, ils allaient lui offrir un siège au conseil d'administration et il allait conclure un accord de statu quo et s'arrêter à 10 % ou quelque chose comme ça. Maintenant, rappelez-vous, nous étions debout. C'était Luke Nozick, que vous connaissez bien, Ken Halry, certains de ses amis sur cette mezzanine ici. Et tout l'après-midi, puis tard dans la soirée, au dîner, on se demande : est-ce qu'on devrait faire ça ? Et je n'ai rien dit. Je ne suis qu'un observateur. Mais tout le monde dit : excusez-moi, pourquoi voulez-vous posséder Twitter ? Et Griffin, son fils, s'est joint au dîner. Et May, pour une raison quelconque, était en ville. Et comme tout le monde le dit, non, nous n'utilisons pas Twitter. Pourquoi ferais-tu ça? Et May a dit : eh bien, j'utilise Twitter. Et c'est presque comme si, d'accord, les données démographiques concernaient les personnes de mon âge ou de l'âge de May. Il semblait donc qu’il n’allait pas poursuivre dans cette voie. Ils lui ont offert un siège au conseil d'administration. Et puis il est parti à Hawaï chez Larry Ellison, qu'il utilise parfois. Il rencontrait une amie, Angela Bassett, une actrice. Et au lieu de profiter de trois jours de vacances, il est devenu suralimenté et a commencé à envoyer des SMS, y compris celui du dragon cracheur de feu. Je pense qu'il a utilisé cette phrase à plusieurs reprises pour dire que Parag n'était pas la personne qui allait amener Twitter à un nouveau niveau.Et puis, au moment où il arrive à Vancouver, où Grimes le rencontre, ils restent éveillés toute la nuit à jouer à Elden Ring. Il faisait une conférence TED. Etpuis à 17h30, il termine de jouer à Elden Ring et m'annonce que j'ai fait une offre. Même quand il revient, les gens essaient d’intervenir et disent : excusez-moi, pourquoi faites-vous cela ? Ce fut donc une période difficile entre fin avril et octobre lorsque la transaction fut conclue. Et les gens me demandent tout le temps : eh bien, voulait-il se retirer du marché ? J'ai dit, de quel Elon parlez-vous, à quelle heure de la journée ? Parce qu'il y aura des moments le matin où il dira, oh, le tribunal du Delaware va m'obliger à le faire. C'est horrible. Parlez à ses avocats. Vous pouvez gagner cette affaire. Sortez-moi de là. Il a rencontré ici à Austin trois ou quatre banquiers d'investissement, Blair Efron de Centerview, Bob Steele de Pirella Weinberg. Et ils lui ont proposé des options. Voulez-vous sortir ? Voulez-vous rester à l'intérieur ? Voulez-vous réduire le prix? Et je pense qu'il était mercuriel. Il y avait des moments où il m’envoyait un texto ou me disait : ça va être génial. Cela va être un accélérateur pour faire x .com comme nous le pensions il y a environ 20 ans. Et ce n'est donc que lorsqu'ils lui disent enfin début octobre, juste au moment où Optimus le robot est dévoilé en Californie, que l'avocat dit : vous n'allez probablement pas gagner cette affaire, mais mieux vaut conclure l'accord. . Et à ce moment-là, non seulement il a fait la paix avec ça, mais il en est plutôt content à un moment donné. Finalement, l’accord sera conclu un vendredi matin, je pense. Je l'ai dans le livre. Et nous y sommes jeudi et il se promène en regardant les t-shirts stay woke et le jargon de la sécurité psychologique qu'ils utilisent tous. Et lui, ses avocats et ses banquiers ont élaboré un plan pour procéder à une clôture éclair. Et la raison en était que s'ils concluaient l'accord après la fermeture des marchés pour la journée, il pourrait envoyer une lettre à Parag et à deux autres personnes, les licenciant pour un motif valable, et ce serait quelque chose que les tribunaux devront déterminer. , alors il pourrait économiser environ 200 millions. Et c'était à la fois l'argent, mais pour lui c'était une question, je ne dirai pas de principe, mais de, hé, ils m'ont induit en erreur sur les chiffres. J'ai été obligé de le faire. Je vais donc essayer cette manœuvre de jujitsu et pouvoir en tirer un peu d'argent. Puis, quand il prend le relais, c'est une scène un peu sauvage. Lui essayant de décider en trois tours différents comment ramener le personnel à 15 % de ce qu'il était. Lui qui a pris sa décision la veille de Noël, après avoir assisté à une réunion où ils lui avaient dit que nous ne pouvions pas nous débarrasser de cette batterie de serveurs de Sacramento, car elle nécessitait une redondance. Il dit, non, ce n'est pas le cas. Et il s'envole pour Austin. Et le jeune James dit : pourquoi ne pas le faire nous-mêmes ? Il fait demi-tour, ils atterrissent à Sacramento et il les retire lui-même. C'était donc une période maniaque.

LEX : Nous devrions également dire qu'en dessous de cela, il y avait un désir ou une réflexion sur la possibilité de créer une nouvelle entreprise pour créer une entreprise de médias sociaux à partir de zéro.

WALTER : Eh bien, Kimball voulait faire ça. Et Kimball ici dans un merveilleux restaurant à Austin, au déjeuner, il se dit : hé, pourquoi achètes-tu Twitter ? Commençons-en un à partir de zéro et faisons-le sur la blockchain. Maintenant, il lui a fallu un certain temps, et vous pouvez l’argumenter d’une manière ou d’une autre, pour arriver à la conclusion que la blockchain n’était pas assez rapide et suffisamment réactive pour pouvoir gérer un milliard de tweets en un jour ou deux. Il se met en colère quand ils continuent d'essayer de le faire parler à Sam Bankman Fried, qui essaie de dire : « Je vais investir, mais nous devons le faire sur la blockchain. Kimball est toujours favorable à en créer un nouveau et à le faire sur la base de la blockchain. Rétrospectivement, je pense que créer une nouvelle entreprise de médias aurait été préférable. Il n'aurait pas eu le bagage ou l'héritage qu'il est en train de briser en brisant la façon dont Twitter l'avait été. Mais il est difficile d'avoir des millions et des millions, des centaines de millions de vrais utilisateurs, pas seulement des trolls, et de repartir de zéro comme d'autres l'ont découvert, comme Macedon et Blue Sky et les fils de discussion et aucun fil de discussion n'avait même de base. Donc ça aurait été difficile.

LEX : Ouais. Et pour faire cela comme il l'a fait, il faut une autre partie sur laquelle vous écrivez avec les trois mousquetaires et toute l'ingénierie, le tir et l'intervention des ingénieurs pour essayer de devenir en quelque sorte hardcore. Il y a donc beaucoup de questions intéressantes à poser, mais à un niveau élevé, pouvez-vous simplement commenter cette partie de la saga, qui fait appel aux ingénieurs et voit, que pouvons-nous faire ici ?

WALTER : C’est vrai. Il a fait appel aux ingénieurs et a estimé que le nombre de personnes travaillant sur Tesla, le pilote automatique entièrement autonome et tous les logiciels disponibles représentait environ un dixième de ce qui faisait des logiciels pour Twitter. Et il a dit, cela ne peut pas être le cas. Et il a tiré à 85 % en trois coups différents. La première consistait simplement à licencier des gens parce qu'ils avaient examiné le codage et qu'ils avaient une équipe de personnes de l'équipe de pilote automatique de Tesla notant les codes de tout ce qui avait été écrit au cours de l'année écoulée.Ensuite, il a licencié des gens qui ne semblaient pas totalement impliqués ou loyaux. Et puis une nouvelle série de licenciements. Ainsi, à chaque étape du processus,presque tout le monde a dit, ça suffit. Cela va détruire des choses. D'Alex Spiro, son avocat à Jared Burchill, il dit : whoa, whoa, whoa. Et même Andrew et James, les jeunes cousins chargés de dresser une liste et de déterminer qui est bon ou mauvais, disent que nous en avons fait assez. Nous allons avoir de vrais ennuis. Et ils avaient en partie raison. Je veux dire, il y a eu une certaine dégradation du service, mais pas autant que la moitié des services que j'utilise la moitié du temps. Et je me réveille chaque matin, j'appuie sur l'application et d'accord, toujours là. Qu'en pensez-vous ?

LEX : C'était trop ?

WALTER : Je pense qu'il a un algorithme que nous avons mentionné plus tôt qui commence par remettre en question chaque exigence, mais c'est à lui de le supprimer , supprimer, supprimer, supprimer chaque partie. Et puis un corollaire à cela est que si vous ne parvenez pas à rajouter 20 % de ce que vous avez supprimé, c'est que vous n'en avez pas supprimé suffisamment au premier tour parce que vous avez été trop timide. Eh bien, alors tu m'as demandé, en a-t-il fait trop ? Il l'a probablement dépassé de 20 %, ce qui est sa formule. Et ils essaient probablement d'embaucher des gens maintenant pour faire avancer les choses.

LEX : Mais cela envoie un signal fort aux personnes qui sont réembauchées ou à celles qui sont toujours là.

WALTER : L'idée d'avril. Ouais. Et ce que Steve Jobs et bien d'autres grands dirigeants ont ressenti, et certainement Bezos et certainement dans les premiers jours de Microsoft, Bill Gates, c'était du hardcore, seulement des joueurs A.

LEX : Alors, quelle part du succès d'Elon diriez-vous ? ? Le succès d'Elon et de Steve Jobs réside dans le recrutement et la gestion d'équipes formidables.

WALTER : Quand j'ai demandé à Steve Jobs à un moment donné, quel était le meilleur produit que vous ayez jamais créé ? Je pensais qu'il dirait peut-être le Macintosh ou peut-être l'iPhone. Il a répondu non, ces produits sont durs. La meilleure chose que j’ai jamais créée, c’est l’équipe qui a fabriqué ces produits. Et c'est là que réside la difficulté, c'est de créer une équipe. Et il l’a fait, de Johnny Ive à Tim Cook en passant par Eddie Q et Phil Schiller. Elon a fait du bon travail en attirant des gens. Gwen Shotwell, évidemment, Linda Iaccarino, elle sait traverser les crises actuelles. Certainement des gens stellaires chez SpaceX comme Mark Jankos. Et puis chez Tesla comme Drew Bacalhino et Lars Marravey et Tom Zhu et bien d'autres. Il n'est pas autant un collaborateur d'équipe que le dit Benjamin Franklin, qui, soit dit en passant, est la meilleure équipe jamais créée, à savoir les fondateurs. Et il fallait avoir des gens vraiment intelligents comme Jefferson et Madison et des gens vraiment passionnés comme John Adams et son cousin Samuel et vraiment un gars d'une grande rectitude comme Washington. Mais il fallait aussi un Ben Franklin capable de rassembler tout le monde, de former une équipe et de les amener à faire des compromis les uns avec les autres. Musk est un aimant pour les talents formidables.

LEX : Aimant, intéressant. Mais il y a aussi les priorités d'embauche basées sur l'excellence, la fiabilité et le dynamisme. Ce sont des choses que vous avez décrites tout au long du livre. Je veux dire, il existe un ensemble d'idées assez concrètes et rigoureuses sur la base desquelles le recrutement se fait.

WALTER : Oh ouais. Et il a un très bon sens, intuitif, qui regarde simplement les gens qui pourraient, je veux dire, pas les regarder, mais les étudier qui pourraient être bons. L’une de ses façons de fonctionner est ce qu’il appelle une réunion de niveau supérieur. Et prenons une chose très spécifique comme le moteur Raptor, qui propulse le Starship. Et ça n'allait pas bien. Cela ressemblait à un buisson de spaghettis et ça allait être difficile à fabriquer. Et il s'est débarrassé des personnes qui dirigeaient cette équipe. Et je me souviens qu'il a passé quelques mois à faire ce qu'il appelle sauter le niveau, ce qui signifie qu'au lieu de rencontrer ses subordonnés directs de l'équipe Raptor, il rencontrait les gens d'un niveau en dessous d'eux. Et donc il sautait un niveau et les rencontrait. Et il a dit, c'est vrai, et je leur demande simplement ce qu'ils font. Et je les ai posés des questions. Et il a dit, et c'est ainsi que je détermine qui va émerger. Il a dit que c'était particulièrement difficile. J'étais assis à ces réunions parce que les gens portaient des masques. C’était au plus fort de la COVID. Et il a dit que cela rendait la tâche un peu plus difficile pour lui car il devait obtenir son avis. Mais j'ai vu un jeune enfant, Dreadlocks nommé Jacob McKenzie, il est dans le livre, il est assis là et il est un peu comme toi. La mentalité d’ingénierie parle d’un ton un peu monotone. Musk posait une question et il donnait une réponse et la réponse était très simple et il ne se laissait pas ébranler. Il était comme ça. Et Musk a dit qu'un jour, il l'avait appelé à 3 heures du matin. Bon, je ne dirai pas 3 heures du matin, mais après minuit, tu es toujours là ? Et Jake a dit, ouais, je suis toujours au travail. Et il a dit : OK, je vais vous confier la responsabilité du team building Raptor. Et c’était comme une grosse surprise. Mais Jacob McKenzie a maintenant une version de Raptor et quand ils en construisent au moins une par semaine, ils sont plutôt géniaux.Et c’est là que réside son talent, le talent de Musk pour trouver la bonne personne et la promouvoir. C'est là que ça se trouve.

LEX : Et en faire la promotion d'une manière où c'est comme si c'était ici le bal, icicatch.

WALTER : Ouais, ouais.

LEX : Et tu cours avec. J'ai interagi avec pas mal de gens, même du Model X, tout au long du processus, là où les gens, vous savez, sur le papier ne semblent pas être ce qu'ils seraient. capable de faire fonctionner le truc et ils le font avec beaucoup de succès.

WALTER : Et il le fait mal. Parfois, il a un bilan horrible avec la division des toits solaires. Un gars merveilleux nommé Brian Dow. Je l'aimais vraiment. Et lors de la montée en puissance d'une usine de batteries au Nevada, Musk s'est débarrassé de deux ou trois personnes et il y a Brian Dow. Je peux faire, je peux faire, je peux faire. Il reste éveillé toute la nuit, il est promu et le dirige. Et finalement Musk fait appel à deux ou trois personnes pour diriger la division des toits solaires. Appelle enfin Brian Dow. J'étais assis dans la maison de Musk à Boca Chica, ce petit deux-pièces qu'il possède. Et il propose à Brian Dow de gérer le toit solaire. Et vous savez, Brian là-bas, d'accord, je peux le faire, je peux le faire. Et à deux ou trois reprises, Musk a insisté pour qu’ils installent un toit solaire dans l’une de ces maisons de Boca Chica. C'est ce petit village à l'extrémité sud du Texas. Et tard dans la nuit, je veux dire, je devrais grimper jusqu'au sommet du toit sur ces échelles et me tenir debout sur ce toit pointu pendant que Musk dit : pourquoi avons-nous besoin de quatre vis pour mettre cette seule jambe ? Et Brian transpirait et faisait tout. Mais après quelques mois, ça n’allait pas bien et boum, Musk l’a simplement viré. J'essaie donc toujours d'apprendre : qu'est-ce qui fait que ceux qui restent s'épanouissent ?

LEX : Quelle est la leçon à retenir ? Qu'en pensez-vous ?

WALTER : Eh bien, je pense que c'est la connaissance de soi comme un Andy Krebs ou d'autres. Ils disent, je suis hardcore. Je veux vraiment envoyer une fusée sur Mars et c'est plus important que toute autre chose. L'une des personnes, je pense que c'est Tim Zeman, j'espère que quand il entendra ça, je lui trouverai la bonne personne, qui a pris du temps. Cela fonctionnait pour le pilote automatique Tesla et c'était tellement intense. Il a pris un congé et est ensuite allé travailler dans une autre entreprise. Il a dit : « J’étais épuisé chez Tesla, mais ensuite je m’ennuyais à l’endroit suivant. Alors j'ai appelé, je pense que c'était Ashok chez Tesla, et je lui ai dit, je peux revenir ? Il a dit, bien sûr. Il a dit, j'ai appris sur moi-même. Je préfère être épuisé que de m'ennuyer.

LEX : C'est une bonne phrase. Pouvez-vous vous attarder sur l'un des trois qui vous semblent intéressants en termes d'excellence, de fiabilité et de dynamisme ? Selon vous, lequel est le plus important et le plus difficile à atteindre ? La fiabilité est intéressante. Êtes-vous du genre à rouler ou à mourir ?

WALTER : Ouais. Je pense que surtout lorsqu’il s’est agi de reprendre Twitter, il pensait que la moitié des gens étaient déloyaux et il avait tort. Environ les deux tiers étaient déloyaux, et pas seulement la moitié. C'était comment les éliminer ? Il a fait quelque chose et a été fusillé, je l'appelle, ou les Mousquetaires, je pense que c'est mon surnom pour eux, qui sont les jeunes cousins et deux ou trois autres personnes. Il leur a fait regarder les messages Slack que ces personnes avaient postés. Tout le monde sur Twitter avait posté et parcouru des centaines de messages Slack. Si quelqu'un posté sur Slack interne, cet imbécile, Elon Musk, devait prendre le relais et j'ai peur qu'il soit un maniaque ou quelque chose du genre, il serait sur la liste parce qu'il veut une loyauté totale. Ils n'ont pas consulté les messages privés de Slack et je suppose que les personnes qui publient sur un tableau Slack d'entreprise doivent savoir que votre entreprise peut les consulter. Mais c’est plus que ce que j’aurais fait ou ce que la plupart des gens auraient fait. Il s’agissait de déterminer qui est profondément engagé et loyal. Je pense que c'était principalement le cas sur Twitter. Il ne reste pas assis à SpaceX pour dire qui m'est fidèle. Ailleurs, c'est l'excellence, mais c'est plutôt une évidence. Tout le monde est comme un Marc Jancosa, il suffit de fouetter intelligemment. C'est toi qui es hardcore et all-in, surtout si tu dois déménager dans cette partie d'une ville de la pointe sud du Texas appelée Boca Chica, tu dois être all-in.

LEX : Ouais. C'est le lecteur, la dernière pièce. Vous, en termes de collaboration, l'une des plus grandes équipes de tous les temps, Ben Franklin. J'aime ça. Je pensais que c'était les Beatles, mais Ben Franklin est plutôt bon. Oh non, non, non. Je suis désolé.

WALTER : Ouais. Désolé de vous offenser autant. Lisez la Constitution et lisez Abbey Road. Regardez Abbey Road. Ils sont tous les deux bons, mais ils sont dans une ligue différente.

LEX : Ouais, une ligue différente. L’une des nombreuses choses qui me viennent à l’esprit avec Ben Franklin est une incroyable gestion du temps. Y a-t-il quelque chose que vous pourriez dire sur Ben Franklin et sur Steve Jobs ? Je pense qu'il est intéressant de noter qu'Elon, au moment où vous l'écrivez, dirige six sociétés, cela dépend de la façon dont vous êtes surpris parce que c'est son propre truc, je ne sais pas. Que pouvez-vous dire de ces personnes en termes de gestion du temps ?

WALTER : Eh bien, Musk est dans une catégorie à part dans sa façon de le faire.Tout d'abord, Steve Jobs a dû diriger Pixar et Apple pendant un certain temps, mais Musk, toutes les deux heures, change d'état d'esprit, passant de la façon d'implanter la puce de liaison neuronale et de ce que fera le robot qui l'implantera.à quoi ressemble le cerveau et à quelle vitesse pouvons-nous le faire bouger, puis le bouclier thermique du Raptor ou le passage à l'imitation humaine, à l'apprentissage automatique, à la conduite autonome complète. Le soir où le conseil d’administration de Twitter a accepté l’accord, l’affaire a été énorme dans le monde entier. Je suis sûr que vous vous en souvenez, comme Musk achète Twitter. Ce n'était pas le cas lorsque l'affaire a été conclue. C'est à ce moment-là que Twitter a accepté son offre. J'ai pensé, d'accord, mais ensuite il est allé à Boca Chica, dans le sud du Texas, et a passé du temps à réparer, si je me souviens bien, une soupape du moteur Raptor qui avait un problème de fuite de méthane, et quels étaient les moyens possibles de le réparer. Tous les ingénieurs présents dans cette pièce, je suppose, pensent à ce type qui vient d'acheter Twitter, devrions-nous dire quelque chose, puis il se rend avec Kimball dans un restaurant en bord de route à Brownsville et s'assoit devant et écoute de la musique sans que personne ne le remarque. c'est vraiment lui qui est là. L'une des choses qui constituent l'une de ses forces et en quelque sorte ses faiblesses est que, au cours d'une journée donnée, il se concentre en série, séquentiellement sur de nombreuses choses différentes. Il se souciera de télécharger la vidéo sur x .com ou sur le système de paiement, puis passera immédiatement à un problème avec la FAA accordant un permis pour Starship ou à la manière de traiter avec Starlink et la CIA. Lorsqu’il est concentré sur l’une de ces choses, vous ne pouvez pas le distraire. Ce n'est pas comme s'il envisageait également de traiter avec Starlink, mais je dois également m'inquiéter de la décision de Tesla concernant la nouvelle voiture à 25 000 $. Désormais, entre ces séances, il va traiter les informations, puis se défouler. Pour le meilleur ou pour le pire, il se défoule soit en incarnant un ami en polytopie, soit en lançant quelques tweets, ce qui n'est souvent pas sain, mais c'est une libération pour lui. J'ai dit un jour qu'il était un excellent multitâche, et c'était une erreur. Les gens m'ont corrigé. C'est un travailleur en série, ce qui signifie qu'il se concentre intensément sur une tâche pendant une heure, il a presque un, comment on appelle ça, dans des restaurants où ils vous donnent un nettoyant pour le palais. Il nettoie le palais avec la polytopie, puis se concentre sur la tâche suivante.

LEX : Y a-t-il une certaine sagesse sur la gestion du temps que vous pouvez en tirer ?

WALTER : Il y a certaines choses qui ces gens le font et vous dites, d'accord, je peux être comme ça. Je peux être plus curieux. Je peux remettre en question toutes les règles et réglementations. Je ne pense tout simplement pas que quiconque devrait essayer d'imiter le style de gestion du temps de Musk, car cela nécessite un certain ensemble d'équipes qui savent comment gérer tout le reste autre que ce sur quoi il se concentre et un certain esprit qui peut changer, tout comme ses humeurs. peut changer. Vous et moi traversons des transitions et aussi si je pense à ce que je vais dire sur ce podcast, je pense aussi à l'e-mail que ma fille vient d'envoyer à propos d'une maison qu'elle regarde, et je suis multitâche . Il ne fait pas vraiment ça. Il effectue des tâches séquentiellement avec une concentration extrême.

LEX : Je ne sais pas. Je pense qu’il y a de la sagesse à en tirer. Tout d'abord, il me fait ressentir, Ben Franklin, qu'il y a beaucoup d'heures dans la journée. Il y a beaucoup de minutes dans la journée. Il n'y a aucune excuse pour ne pas faire beaucoup de choses et cela nécessite juste une concentration extrême, une concentration extrême et une urgence.

WALTER : Je pense que l'urgence féroce qui le motive est importante et elle est parfois exacerbée. Comme je l'ai dit, l'urgence d'arriver sur Mars et un vendredi soir, sur la rampe de lancement de Boca Chica à 22 heures, il n'y a que quelques personnes qui travaillent parce que c'est un vendredi soir. Ils ne sont pas censés être lancés avant huit mois. Et il ordonne une poussée. Il dit, je veux que 200 personnes ici d'ici demain travaillent sur cette plateforme. Nous devons ressentir un profond sentiment d'urgence, sinon nous n'atteindrons jamais Mars.

LEX : Ce sentiment d'urgence est aussi un dynamisme qui nous donne l'impression de vraiment prendre pleinement conscience de la vie. Je veux dire, pour moi, c'est la leçon, même le banal peut être plein de cette juste richesse. Et comme s’il fallait vraiment l’assimiler intensément. Ainsi, le changement permet ce genre d'intensité parce que la plupart d'entre nous ne peuvent pas maintenir cette intensité dans une tâche pendant une période prolongée. C'est peut-être aussi une leçon.

WALTER : C'est vrai. Et je suppose que cela revient aussi à savoir qui vous êtes, ce qui signifie qu’il y a des gens qui peuvent se concentrer intensément et d’autres qui peuvent voir des tendances dans beaucoup de choses. Écoutez, Léonard de Vinci, il n'était pas très concentré. Il était facilement distrait. Remettre à plus tard. C'est pourquoi il a plus de peintures inachevées que de peintures terminées dans son canon. Mais sa capacité à voir des modèles dans la nature et, d’une certaine manière, à traiter, à tergiverser, à se laisser distraire, cela l’a aidé dans une certaine mesure, mais Musk n’est pas comme ça.Et là, tous les quelques mois, il y a une nouvelle surtension, vous ne savez pas où elle va se produire, mais vous serez sur des toits solaires et tout d'un coup, nous aurons une surtension et il doit y avoir, vous savez, une des centaines de toits solaires construits ou cela doit être fait d'ici demain ou construire un dôme de vaisseau spatial avant l'aube et surgir et le faire. Et il y a des gens qui sont construits de cette façon. C'est inspirant, mais permet aussi d'apprécier, vous savez, qu'il y a des gens quipeut être vraiment bon, mais peut aussi savourer le succès, savourer l'instant présent, savourer le calme parfois. Le grand défaut de Musk est qu’il ne peut pas savourer l’instant présent ou le succès. Et c'est le revers de la médaille de l'intensité hardcore.

LEX : Dans Innovators, un autre de vos livres que j'adore, vous écrivez sur les individus et sur les groupes. Ainsi, l'une des questions abordées dans le livre est la suivante : est-ce que ce sont des individus ou des groupes qui inversent le cours de l'histoire ?

WALTER : Lorsque Henry Kissinger effectuait des missions de navette pour la paix au Moyen-Orient, c'est le premier livre que j'ai jamais écrit. Il a dit que lorsque j'étais professeur à Harvard, je pensais que l'histoire était déterminée par de grandes forces et des groupes de personnes. Mais quand je le vois de près, je vois quelle différence un individu peut faire. Il parle de Sadate et Golda Meir parle probablement aussi de lui-même, ou du moins dans son esprit. Et nous, biographes, avons ce sale secret que nous connaissons, nous déformons un peu l'histoire en faisant en sorte que le récit soit trop piloté par un individu. Mais parfois, c’est un individu qui en est le moteur. Musk est un cas comme celui-là. Et parfois, comme je l'ai fait avec les Innovators, il y a des équipes et des gens qui s'appuient les uns sur les autres et Gordon Moore et Bob Noyce, puis ils obtiennent Andy Grove et fabriquent la puce électronique, qui sort ensuite et Wozniak et Jobs la trouvent dans un magasin d'électronique et ils décident de construire la pomme. Il y a donc parfois des flux de forces et des groupes de personnes. Je suppose que je me trompe un peu en regardant ce que Steve Jobs, Elon Musk et Albert Einstein peuvent faire. Et j’essaie aussi de comprendre s’ils n’avaient pas existé, les forces de l’histoire et les groupes de personnes auraient-ils réussi sans eux ? C'est une bonne question historique pour quelqu'un qui aime l'histoire. Et vous pensez à la relativité restreinte, l'un des articles de 1905. Même après qu'il l'ait écrit, il faut quatre ans avant que les gens comprennent vraiment ce qu'il dit, à savoir que ce n'est pas seulement la façon dont vous observez le temps qui est relative, c'est le temps lui-même qui est relatif. Et en ce qui concerne la théorie générale, qu’il formule une décennie plus tard, je ne suis pas sûr que nous l’ayons déjà compris. Que diriez-vous de nous faire entrer dans l'ère d'un iPhone dans lequel c'est si beau qu'on ne peut pas vivre sans mille chansons dans sa poche, sans e-mail et Internet dans sa poche et sans un téléphone ? Il y a beaucoup de personnes en état de mort cérébrale, de Panasonic à Motorola, qui n'ont pas compris cela. Et cela faisait peut-être un moment. Je pense certainement que c'est vrai à l'ère des véhicules électriques. Jim et Ford, tous les gens formidables là-bas, ont écrasé le verrou. Et je veux dire que littéralement, ils ont fini par les détruire parce qu’ils ont décidé d’arrêter. De même, personne n’envoyait de roquettes. Notre navette spatiale était sur le point d'être immobilisée il y a 12 ans. Et donc Musk fait des choses et il y aura des gens qui diront que s’ils lisent le livre, ils verront l’histoire complète. Mais ils disent que ce n’est pas Musk qui a fait Tesla, mais Martin Abba Hart ou Mark Tarpenning. Non non Non. Il y avait des gens qui avaient contribué à créer les coquilles d’entreprises et d’autres choses et ils méritaient tous d’être appelés co-fondateurs. Mais celui qui nous amène à atteindre un million de véhicules électriques par an est Elon Musk. Et sans lui, je ne pense pas que nous... Écoutez, si quelqu'un dans cinq ans achète une voiture à essence, nous penserons que c'est pittoresque, c'est étrange. Je veux dire, tout à coup, nous avons changé. Nous n'allons pas le faire. 90 % d'entre eux sont Elon Musk.

LEX : Nous sommes tous mortels. Quand et comment pensez-vous qu'Elon prendra sa retraite après le programme incroyablement productif qu'il suit actuellement ?

WALTER : Je pense qu'il détesterait prendre sa retraite. Je pense qu'il ne peut pas vivre sans la pression, le drame, les sentiments. Cela n’a jamais semblé lui avoir traversé l’esprit. Il n'a jamais dit, peut-être que j'aime la maison de Larry Ellison sur la plage à Hawaï. Peut-être que je devrais y consacrer du temps. Au lieu de cela, il dit des choses comme : « J’ai appris très tôt que les vacances tuaient. Il attrape le paludisme lorsqu'il part en vacances. Je veux dire, il part en vacances à un moment donné et ils l'évincent de PayPal. Et puis il va en Afrique à un moment donné, il attrape le paludisme. Il dit, j'ai appris, les vacances tuent. Leçon apprise.

LEX : Eh bien, c'est intéressant parce que les projets sont des projets de plus de cent ans. Beaucoup d'entre eux.

WALTER : Une des choses étranges est de le voir penser à un terme incroyablement long. L'une des réunions chaque semaine au début lorsque je l'observais était celle du colonisateur de Mars. Et nous l’avons fait lors d’une réunion de deux heures sur quelle serait la structure de gouvernance sur Mars ? Que porteraient les gens ? Comment fonctionneraient les robots ? Y aurait-il une démocratie ou devrait-il y avoir une autre forme de gouvernance ? Je suis assis là et je me dis : qu'est-ce qu'ils font ? De quoi parlent-ils? Ils essaient de construire des fusées et tout le reste. Ils s’inquiètent de la structure de gouvernance de Mars.Et de même, chaque fois qu'il se trouve dans un moment de tension, comme s'il y avait une fusée sur le point d'être lancée, il commencerait à demander aux gens quelque chose dans le futur, comme le nouveau moteur principal ou quelque chose du genre. Si nous voulons construire cela, avons-noussuffisamment de matériaux prêts à être commandés ou je ne sais pas, il posera simplement des questions comme lorsqu'il construit un taxi robot, la voiture mondiale, la voiture mondiale bon marché à 25 000 $. Ce n'est pas une passion totale. On l'a persuadé de faire cela. Sa passion, ce sont les robots taxis, mais sa passion est de savoir comment allons-nous faire en sorte que cette usine puisse fabriquer un million de voitures par an ? Ainsi, même le taxi robot offre une vision à plus longue portée. Je veux dire, il le vante depuis 2016, mais pas nous. Il n’y a pas de taxis robots. Je veux dire, Waymo fait peut-être une petite expérience, mais il n'y a pas de voitures fabriquées sans volant qui vont envahir les autoroutes. Ouais. C'est pourquoi il regarde toujours vers l'avenir.

LEX : J'espère juste qu'il y a beaucoup de Da Vinci, de Steve Jobs, d'Einstein et d'Elon Musk qui font avancer la flamme.

WALTER : C'est l'une des raisons pour lesquelles vous écrivez des livres sur ces gens, c'est pour que si vous êtes une jeune femme dans une école où on ne vous dit pas de faire des sciences et que vous lisez le briseur de code sur Jennifer Doudna, vous dites, d'accord. , je peux être ça. Et quand vous dites, oh, peut-être que je serai un régulateur ou que vous dites, oh non, peut-être que je serai la personne qui repousse les limites, qui repousse les lignes, qui pousse, comme Steve Jobs l'a dit, la race humaine.

LEX : Eh bien, laissez-moi vous poser des questions sur votre esprit, votre génie, votre processus. Je vous en donne deux sur trois. D'accord. Expliquez-moi votre processus d'écriture d'une biographie. Je veux dire, plein de ça. Et pas seulement écrire une biographie, mais comprendre profondément ce que vos livres ont fait pour l’histoire humaine et les idées plus larges qui sous-tendent l’histoire humaine. Vous avez donc écrit des biographies d'individus, qui ne sont guère des individus. C'est un tableau très vaste et complexe. Et des biographies d'idées qui impliquent des individus.

WALTER : Eh bien, pour moi, la première étape consiste à essayer de comprendre comment fonctionne l'esprit. Qu'est-ce qui pousse Einstein à faire ce saut pour qu'Elon Musk dise acier inoxydable alors qu'il regarde une fusée en fibre de carbone ? Ou comment faire le saut mental ? Parce que j'écris sur les gens intelligents, mais les gens intelligents se vendent à la pelle. Ils ne représentent généralement pas grand-chose. Il faut être créatif, imaginatif pour penser différemment, comme dirait Jobs. Et alors, qu’est-ce qui rend les gens créatifs ? Qu’est-ce qui les pousse à faire des pas en avant imaginatifs ? C'est la question clé que vous devez poser. Vous posez également les questions que vous avez posées plus tôt : quels sont les démons qui vibrent dans leur tête et comment les exploitent-ils dans leurs pulsions ? Alors vous regardez tout cela et vous essayez d’observer très attentivement la personne. L'une des choses les plus banales que je fais, c'est que beaucoup d'écrivains essaient de vous donner beaucoup de leurs opinions et de prêcher ou autre. Comme je l'ai dit, ce mentor a dit qu'il y avait deux types de personnes : les prédicateurs et les conteurs. Soyez un conteur. J'essaie chaque fois que j'essaie de transmettre une pensée, il y a six mots magiques que j'aurais presque dû écrire sur une carte épinglée au-dessus de mon bureau, qui sont laissez-moi vous raconter une histoire. Donc, si quelqu'un dit comment Elon Musk découvre les bons talents comme vous l'avez fait, je pense, eh bien, laissez-moi vous raconter l'histoire. Je vais vous raconter l'histoire de Jake McKenzie. Ou alors, ce n'est pas quelque chose que j'ai inventé. C'est là que le bon Dieu le fait dans la Bible. Je veux dire, il y a la meilleure phrase d'ouverture jamais vue, vous savez, au début, une virgule, et puis ce sont des histoires. Et deuxièmement, pour reprendre cette phrase principale du début, rendez-la chronologique. Toute personne dans la 40e année de sa vie a grandi entre la 39e et la 38e année. Et donc vous voulez montrer comment les gens évoluent et grandissent. J'avais la plus grande de toutes les attitudes narratives de non-fiction, Alice Mayhew face à Simon Schuster, qui, entre autres choses, a créé tous les hommes du président avec Woodward et Bernstein. Mais elle avait une note qu'elle avait mise dans les marges de mes livres et qui servait de coche, et cela signifiait tout à temps. Gardez-le chronologique. Si c'est assez bon pour la Bible, c'est assez bon pour vous.

LEX : Intéressant. Pour moi, c'est une petite note, mais pour vous, c'est extrêmement important.

WALTER : Parce que c'est le cadre dans lequel vous structurez les choses, mais aussi comment vous comprenez les choses, c'est-à-dire si vous gardez cela dans un ordre chronologique. narratif, vous montrez alors comment une personne a grandi d'une expérience dont vous avez parlé à la suivante. Et cette croissance morale, cette croissance créative, cette croissance en prenant des risques, cette sagesse, voilà l’essence de la créativité. Mais vous ne pouvez pas le faire. Il existe un terme, Bildungsroman, qui désigne un livre qui raconte une histoire et raconte comment les gens apprennent quelque chose. Je crois beaucoup au récit. Si vous êtes universitaire, parfois pas aujourd'hui, mais il y a 20 ou 30 ans, il y avait deux choses que vous considériez comme mauvaises. L’une était d’avoir une théorie de l’histoire sur une grande personne dans laquelle vous avez décidé de faire une biographie. J'avais un excellent professeur quand j'étais à l'université. Elle s'appelait Doris Kearns. Elle épousa plus tard Dick Goodwin.Et elle, alors qu'elle se présentait pour un poste à l'université, a écrit une biographie de Lyndon Johnson et du rêve américain. Et ils lui ont refusé son mandat parce que c'était inadmissible.dignité de l’académie d’écrire l’histoire à travers une seule personne. C'est super. Cela nous a ouvert le champ de la biographie, à nous non-universitaires, à commencer par David McCullough, Bob Caro, mais peut-être que John Meacham et moi-même faisons partie d'une nouvelle génération. Et il y a certainement une génération qui viendra après nous. Mais la deuxième chose, outre le fait de le raconter à travers les gens, c'est que l'académie avait tendance à dédaigner ce qu'elle appelle imposer un récit et ce que vous en faites comme une narration. Parce que cela signifiait que vous laissiez des choses de côté et en faisiez un récit. Eh bien, c'est ainsi que nous formons notre vision du monde.

LEX : Eh bien, laissez-moi vous poser cette question en termes de compréhension. Dans quelle mesure il s'agit d'observations et dans quelle mesure d'entretiens ?

WALTER : Ouais. Euh, et cela dépend évidemment du sujet. Je veux dire, avec un Ben Franklin, tout est basé sur des archives et chacun, bien sûr, nous avons 40 volumes de lettres. Il a écrit que c'était le bon vieux temps où chaque jour on écrivait 20 lettres. Le livre incontournable est bien plus basé sur l'observation que presque n'importe lequel de mes livres, car il s'est ouvert d'une manière qui m'a époustouflé. Ouais. Même quand il était assis en polytopie vide ou bouillonnait contre d'autres personnes, vous savez, il me faisait juste rester assis là à regarder. Je veux dire, j'ai passé beaucoup de temps avec Jennifer à ses côtés. Je suis allé dans son laboratoire et j'ai modifié un gène humain et, vous savez, avec une pipette et un tube à essai. Mais je dirais que j'ai passé 30 heures avec elle. Je ne peux pas compter, vous savez, cent heures ou plus rien que pour observer la mosquée. Et je ne suis pas sûr qu'un biographe, peut-être depuis que Boswell a affronté le Dr Johnson, ait jamais eu autant de proximité, c'est-à-dire un accès permanent à cinq pieds de distance. Et c'est pour cette raison que je reviens sur ce que j'ai dit il y a un instant. J'essaie de m'éloigner de l'histoire. Il ne s'agit pas de moi. Il ne s'agit pas de, j'essaie simplement de dire, d'accord, voici ce qui s'est passé. Voici cette histoire. Voici ce qui s'est passé. Et puis le soir où il est venu sur Twitter pour la première fois et vous a laissé vous faire votre propre jugement.

LEX : Et les interviews ? Vous avez eu beaucoup de conversations. Vous remerciez les personnes avec lesquelles vous avez interviewé. Eh bien, premièrement, je dois me demander en tant qu'aspirant intervieweur, comment ?

WALTER : Les gens adorent parler. Les gens adorent, tu le sais. J'ai eu 140, peut-être 150 personnes, elles sont toutes répertoriées au dos. L'une des petites choses que les gens ne remarqueront pas, mais je vais le dire maintenant, c'est qu'elles sont toutes consignées au compte rendu. Les faire parler est facile. Ils veulent tous parler de mosquée. Mais à un moment donné, je ne mets plus de citations anonymes dans mon livre. Je cite des choses. Je dis, si vous êtes assez dur et que vous avez vécu cela, et bien souvent, cela prend deux ou trois rappels. Quelqu'un me dira, oh non, non, non, je ne veux pas. Mais je pense qu'il est important de savoir d'où tout vient. Et avec les mosquées, j’ai eu cela dès le début parce que j’étais journaliste au Time Magazine. J'avais travaillé comme journaliste pour le Times-Picayune à la Nouvelle-Orléans. Le premier jour de travail, j'ai dû couvrir un meurtre. J'ai téléphoné pour raconter l'histoire depuis un téléphone public et mon rédacteur en chef, le rédacteur en chef de la ville, m'a dit : eh bien, avez-vous parlé à la famille ? J'y suis allé, non, Billy. Je veux dire, la famille, la fille vient juste, dit-il, d'aller frapper à la porte. J'ai frappé a la porte. Une heure plus tard, ils parlaient toujours. Ils sortaient son annuaire. Première leçon que j'ai apprise : les gens veulent parler si vous êtes prêt à simplement écouter. Et que ce soit Henry Kissinger, il vous suffit d'appuyer sur le bouton et de dire Kissinger, et les gens vous racontent des histoires. Tout au long d’Elon Musk, tout le monde a parlé. Tout le monde dans sa famille, tout le monde qu'il a viré, tout le monde. Je veux dire, je pense qu'il est important d'écouter les gens. Et l'autre chose que j'ai apprise en tant que journaliste, lorsque je couvrais la politique dans le New Hampshire et les premières campagnes, j'ai appris de deux ou trois grands journalistes, un gars nommé David Broder et Tim Russert, le regretté gars de NBC. Ils font ce qu’on appelle du porte-à-porte. Il suffit de marcher dans un quartier, de frapper à une porte et d'interroger les gens sur les élections. Mais ils ont dit : voici le secret. Ne posez pas de questions suggestives. Je n'ai aucune prémisse. Dites simplement, hé, j'essaie de comprendre cette élection. Que se passe-t-il? Qu'en penses-tu? Et puis restez silencieux. Avec Musk, un troisième secret, vous le savez bien. Il se tait parfois. Parfois une minute, deux minutes, quatre minutes. N'essayez pas de combler les silences. Si vous êtes un auditeur, vous devez apprendre, d'accord, il ne dit rien pendant quatre minutes. Je peux lui survivre.

LEX : C'est dur. En tant qu'humains, c'est très difficile. Respecter le silence est vraiment très difficile. En parlant de démons, quand il y a le silence, tous les démons apparaissent dans ma tête. La peur, je pense, c'est que si je ne dis rien, c'est ennuyeux. Et si je dis quelque chose, ce sera stupide. Et c'est le moteur de base qui continue de fonctionner.Pas sur le podcast, sur le podcast, mais aussi dans l'interaction humaine. Et donc je pense qu'il y a cette énergie nerveuse lorsque l'on interagit avec les gens.

WALTER : On ne peut jamais y allervous avez tort de garder le silence si vous n'avez rien à dire. Ce n'est pas quelque chose que je maîtrise, mais quand je suis journaliste, j'essaie de maîtriser cela, c'est-à-dire ne pas poser de questions complexes. N'intervenez pas. Et quand quelqu'un n'a pas entièrement répondu à la question, ne dites pas, eh bien, laissez-moi, vous savez, garder le silence et ensuite il continuera à parler.

LEX : Donnez-lui simplement une chance de continuer. parler. Même s'ils ont en quelque sorte fini, quand même.

WALTER : Parfois, ils ne vous en ont pas donné assez. Au lieu de poursuivre, je vais simplement hocher la tête et rester à l'écart.

LEX : Vous donnez l'impression que les choses sont simples. Y a-t-il un secret pour amener les gens à s'ouvrir davantage ?

WALTER : J'ai un peu de chance parce que, vous savez, j'ai commencé en travaillant pour un quotidien et les gens à l'époque voulaient parler au journal. journaliste.

LEX : Mais vous avez aussi une certaine façon de vous considérer. J'ai l'impression que tu es comme un cowboy dans un saloon. Comme si tu voulais juste parler. Comme s'il y avait un match nul. Je ne sais pas. Je ne sais pas ce que c'est. Peut-être que c'est, je ne sais pas si c'est un développeur, vous êtes né avec, mais il y a un, j'ai l'impression que je veux vous raconter une sorte d'histoire.

WALTER : Bien, raconte-moi un histoire. Quelques choses. J'ai appris à être plus silencieux. Je suis sûr que je sais quand j'étais plus jeune ou même je verrai des vidéos de moi, vous savez, dans des reportages où j'essaie toujours de poser une question. Et ainsi, on apprend parfois à être plus silencieux. Je ne l'ai pas maîtrisé. Je ne l'ai pas assez appris. Vous apprenez à être naturellement curieux. De nombreux journalistes aujourd'hui, lorsqu'ils posent une question ou qu'ils essaient de jouer au piège ou d'essayer d'obtenir un scoop ou d'essayer, vous savez, de jouer quelque chose qui peut créer une piste. Et si vous êtes vraiment curieux et que vous voulez vraiment connaître la réponse à une question, alors les gens peuvent dire que vous l'avez posée parce que vous voulez la réponse, pas parce que vous jouez à un jeu avec eux.

LEX : Je suis sûr que certaines d'entre elles sont officieuses, d'autres officiellement, vous avez peut-être eu, vous savez, des conversations incroyables. J'allais raconter certaines des plus grandes conversations de tous les temps, mais qui sait ? Certaines des meilleures conversations de tous les temps ont probablement lieu quelque part en Amérique du Sud entre deux personnes ivres que nous n'entendons jamais. Donc je ne sais pas, je ne sais pas. Mais existe-t-il un outil que vous pouvez transmettre à quelqu'un comme moi grâce à ce que vous avez appris et comment avoir une bonne conversation, surtout une fois enregistrée ?

WALTER : Eh bien, pour être vraiment curieux. Je veux dire, chaque question que vous m'avez posée est due au fait que je pense que vous voulez réellement connaître la réponse et que vous avez fait vos devoirs pour être ouvert et ne pas avoir d'agenda. Je veux dire, nous souffrons tous du fait qu'il y a trop d'agendas dans le monde aujourd'hui.

LEX : Ouais. C'est donc juste une véritable curiosité, mais, euh, il y a quelque chose lorsque vous parlez d'une simple interaction en tête-à-tête, qu'il s'agisse d'Elon ou de Steve Jobs ou qu'il y ait quelque chose de beau dans l'esprit de cette personne. Et j’ai l’impression qu’il est possible de révéler cela, de découvrir cela ensemble efficacement. Et c'est en quelque sorte le but d'une conversation.

WALTER : Eh bien, je veux dire, écoutez, vous êtes parmi les meilleurs podcasteurs et intervieweurs au monde aujourd'hui. Vous avez du sérieux envers vous. Euh, Ben Franklin est la personne qui m'a appris, je veux dire, en le lisant le plus sur la conversation. Il a écrit un merveilleux essai à ce sujet. Cela inclut le silence. Euh, mais cela implique d'essayer de poser des questions sincères plutôt que de faire passer un message. Je veux dire, c'est un peu socratique, mais chaque fois qu'il se posait la question, je voulais créer un noyau de pompiers à Philadelphie. Il se rendait à son groupe qu'il appelait le club des tabliers de cuir et ils posaient une question. Pourquoi ne l'avons-nous pas ? Que faudrait-il ? Qu'est-ce qui serait bien ? Et puis la deuxième partie consiste à vous assurer que vous écoutez. Et si quelqu’un a ne serait-ce qu’un germe d’idée, attribuez-lui le mérite. Comme Joe l'a dit, vous savez, le vrai problème est le suivant, et je pense que si je suis dans des situations et je veux juste dire même un dîner ou quelque chose comme ça, je suis avec quelqu'un, je suis généralement curieux et je vais , la conversation se poursuivra, vous savez, avec des questions. Et je suppose que c'est aussi parce que je m'intéresse plutôt à ce que font les gens, peu importe avec qui je me trouve. Et c’est un talent que vous avez, c’est que vous êtes assez sincère dans vos intérêts. Il y a des gens comme Benjamin Franklin, comme, je dirai Charlie Rose, même s'il est en disgrâce, qui s'intéressent à énormément de sujets. Et je pense que cela aide aussi de s’intéresser au basket-ball, à l’opéra, à la physique et à la métaphysique. Euh, c'était un Ben Franklin, c'était un truc de Leonardo, c'est-à-dire qu'ils voulaient savoir tout ce que vous pouviez savoir sur tous les sujets connaissables.

LEX : Mais il y a un autre aspect à cela, c'est que, euh , que j'aimerais savoir comment vous l'avez résolu ou si vous y avez fait face, que vous êtes certainement désarmant.Euh, tu vois, je suis en train de, euh, te remplir de compliments ici, en essayant de t'avoir.

WALTER : C'est une méthode très désarmante. Ouais. J'ai récemment parlé à Benjamin et Yahoo. Nous allons, nous parleronsencore. Malheureusement, nous n'avons eu qu'une heure à cause d'un emploi du temps et de complexités, ce qui est très difficile, très difficile avec un homme politique charismatique.

LEX : Je comprends cela, mais c'est aussi un bavard charismatique, qu'il est très difficile de briser. en une heure. Euh, mais il y a des gens qui ont construit des murs, que ce soit à cause de démons ou à cause de leurs politiciens. Et donc ils ont des programmes, des récits, etc. Et donc pour surmonter ces, euh, je me demande s'il y a des conseils, une certaine sagesse que vous avez appris sur la façon, euh, d'user en quelque sorte à cause de l'eau ou autre, ou quelle que soit la méthode, les murs que nous avons construits en tant qu'individus.

WALTER : Je veux dire, vous appelez cela désarmer, ce que je ne sais pas si c'est le cas, mais désarmer signifie essentiellement que vous supprimez également leurs boucliers. Et vous savez, quand les gens ont un bouclier et que vous essayez de les réconforter, je n’ai eu aucun problème avec Elon Musk. Je veux dire, c'était comme un désarmement pour moi, c'est-à-dire que j'attendais toujours pour dire, d'accord, il ne va pas le faire, il a un obus ou il ne fera pas ça. Mais il était, euh, presque follement ouvert et ne semblait pas, euh, vouloir tourner, se cacher ou faire semblant de choses. Euh, et j'ai eu de la chance. Doudna était comme ça. Steve Jobs était comme ça, et il faut aussi y consacrer du temps. En d'autres termes, vous ne pouvez pas dire, d'accord, il y a un entretien d'une heure et je vais abattre tous les murs. C'est comme lors de votre cinquième visite.

LEX : Une des choses dans ma situation, c'est que vous apprenez que la cinquième visite est très agréable, mais parfois vous n'obtenez pas de cinquième visite. Parfois, ce n'est que le premier rendez-vous. Et, euh, je pense à quoi cela se résume, et nous avons dit désarmant, mais il y a quelque chose chez cette personne en qui vous avez confiance. Je pense que cela se résume en grande partie à une confiance profondément humaine. Et je pense, euh, avec, avec, euh, avec beaucoup de gens avec qui j'ai parlé, parfois la confiance se produit comme après l'entretien, ce qui est vraiment triste parce que c'est comme, oh mec, je n'ai jamais été dans ton situation où j'ai un spectacle.

WALTER : J'en ai habituellement. Deuxièmement, je ne suis pas une personne qui aime les premiers rendez-vous. Ouais. Ouais. Ouais. Eh bien, tu sais, mais j'ai de la chance. Je veux dire, je suis, je dis chanceux, mais je suis dans l'imprimé, vous savez, l'imprimé est un média vieux de quelques milliers d'années, mais il y a ceux d'entre nous qui l'adorent.

LEX : Eh bien , la nature du média podcast est que je suis une fille du genre aventure d'un soir. Euh, laissez-moi vous poser une question sur l'objectivité. Vous avez suivi Elon et vous suivez Steve. Comme toi, je veux dire, je ne sais même pas si tu dirais ton ami, tu dois faire attention avec des mots comme ça, mais tu es, il y a une intimité. Euh, et comment restez-vous objectif ? Voulez-vous rester objectif tout en racontant une histoire profondément humaine ?

WALTER : Ouais. Je veux dire, je veux être honnête, ce qui, je pense, revient à être objectif. Euh, j'essaie de garder à l'esprit qui, pour qui j'écris ? Je n'écris pas pour Elon Musk. Comme je l'ai dit, je ne lui ai pas envoyé le livre. Je ne sais pas s'il, je ne pense pas qu'il l'ait encore lu. Euh, j'ai une personne à qui j'écris pour le lecteur ouvert d'esprit. Et si je peux mettre une histoire et dire, eh bien, ça va énerver le sujet ou ça va vraiment le rendre heureux. Ce n'est pas pertinent. Ou j’essaie d’en faire une considération mineure. C'est ainsi que le lecteur comprendra mieux car j'ai mis cette histoire dans le livre.

LEX : Je suis un peu romantique. Donc pour moi, même votre livre d'Einstein contenait des leçons sur la romance et les relations. Oh cher. Alors, quelle est l'importance des relations amoureuses pour le succès d'un grand homme, d'une grande femme, d'un grand esprit ?

WALTER : Eh bien, parfois, les gens qui affectent le cours de l'humanité ont de meilleures relations avec l'humanité qu'avec les humains qui les entourent. eux. Einstein a eu deux relations intéressantes avec ses épouses. Sa, vous savez, Maleva, sa première femme était une caisse de résonance et une aide pour les mathématiques de l'article sur la relativité restreinte en particulier. Hum, mais il ne l'a pas bien traitée. Je veux dire, il lui a fait signer une lettre pour qu'elle ne l'interrompe pas. Elle ne l'a pas fait, vous savez, et finalement, quand elle a voulu divorcer, il n'a pas pu se le permettre parce qu'il était encore commis aux brevets. Et donc, euh, il lui a proposé un marché, ce que je trouve totalement incroyable. Il a dit qu'un de ces jours, un de ces articles de 1905 remporterait le prix Nobel. Si nous divorçons, tu sais, je te donnerai l'argent. Hum, c'était beaucoup d'argent à l'époque, comme un million de dollars maintenant ou quelque chose comme ça. Et elle est intelligente. C'est une scientifique. Elle consulte quelques autres scientifiques. Et après environ une semaine, elle accepte le pari. Est-ce jusqu'à quoi, 1919, qu'il remporte son prix Nobel ? Euh, et elle reçoit tout l'argent. Elle achète trois immeubles à Zurich. Euh, avec sa seconde épouse, Elsa, c'était plutôt un partenariat de convenance.Ce n'était pas un amour romantique, mais il le savait, et c'est parfois ce dont les gens ont besoin dans la vie, c'est juste d'un partenaire. Je veux dire, quelqu'un qui va gérer les choses que vous n'allez pas gérer. Donc je suppose que si vous regardez mes livres, ce ne sont pas de grands guides inspirants pourrelations personnelles.

LEX : Laissez-moi vous poser des questions sur le processus d'écriture lui-même. Quand vous avez observé, quand vous avez écouté, quand vous avez collecté toutes les informations, quelle est, euh, peut-être même juste la question banale et idiote de, euh, que mangez-vous au petit-déjeuner avant de commencer à écrire ?

WALTER : Quand écris-tu ? Tout d’abord, le petit-déjeuner n’est pas mon repas préféré. Et ces gens qui vous disent qu’il faut commencer par un petit-déjeuner copieux, je les regarde de travers. Oui. Euh, et le matin n'est pas mon moment préféré de la journée. Donc j'écris la nuit et parce que j'aime la narration, c'est facile de structurer un livre, c'est-à-dire que je peux faire un plan qui, si je l'imprimais ou des notes, ferait une centaine de pages, mais tout est en ordre. En d'autres termes, si nous servons, s'il y a un homme en feu et qu'il revient de Grimes et puis il y a une histoire de toit solaire, et puis il y a quelque chose, je mets tout cela en ordre jour après jour comme un aperçu. Et cela me discipline lorsque je commence à écrire pour suivre le mantra d'Alice Mayhew, ma première éditrice, qui est que tout arrive à temps. N'anticipez pas l'histoire. Pas besoin de revenir en arrière. Euh, et puis après avoir obtenu que tout soit chronologique, vous savez, les choses, alors vous devez faire un regroupement. Vous savez, vous devez dire, d'accord, nous allons prendre la décision de faire Starship ou de construire une usine au Texas ou autre. Et puis vous avez parfois le problème d’organisation, oui, et cela nous amène jusqu’ici. Est-ce que je garde ça dans tel ou tel chapitre ou est-ce que j'attends plus tard quand ce sera mieux chronologiquement ? Mais c'est facile.

LEX : Eh bien, qu'en est-il du processus même de narration de l'histoire ?

WALTER : Eh bien, c'est le mantra que j'ai mentionné plus tôt, c'est-à-dire chaque fois que j'ai une pause ou que je Je ne sais pas comment dire quelque chose, je dis juste, laisse-moi te raconter une histoire. Et puis je trouve l'anecdote, l'histoire, le conte qui englobe ce que j'essaie de transmettre. Et puis je ne dis pas ce que je cherche à transmettre. Je n'ai pas de phrase de transition qui dit, vous savez, Elon change parfois d'avis si souvent qu'il ne se souvient plus s'il avait changé d'avis ou, vous savez, vous n'avez pas besoin de phrases de transition. Dites simplement, d'accord, voici le point que je dois souligner ensuite. Et donc vous commencez par une phrase qui dit, vous savez, un jour de janvier dans l'usine au Texas, virgule.

LEX : Eh bien, l'une des choses que j'aimerais vous demander, c'est un conseil. car, pour moi, pour les jeunes, le premier conseil serait de lire des biographies dans le sens où elles vous aident à comprendre toutes les différentes manières de vivre une vie bien vécue. Mais après avoir écrit des biographies, après avoir étudié tant de grands hommes et femmes, quels conseils pourriez-vous donner aux gens sur la façon de vivre cette vie ?

WALTER : Eh bien, je reviens toujours aux classiques et à Platon. et Aristote et Socrate. Et je suppose que c'est la maxime de Platon, mais il cite peut-être Socrate, selon laquelle une vie non examinée ne vaut pas la peine d'être vécue. Et cela nous ramène à la connaissance de soi, c'est-à-dire que vous n'avez pas besoin de comprendre quelle est la grande signification de tout cela, mais vous devez comprendre pourquoi vous faites ce que vous faites. Et cela nécessite quelque chose dont je n'avais pas assez quand j'étais jeune, c'est-à-dire la conscience de soi et l'examen de chaque motivation, de tout ce que je fais.

LEX : Où te mène l'examen ? Est-ce que c'est pour, pour, pour changer de trajectoire de vie ?

WALTER : Je veux dire, ce n'est pas pour moi en quelque sorte, d'accord, j'ai maintenant décidé qu'après avoir été journaliste, je vais courir un groupe de réflexion ou je dirigerai un réseau ou j'écrirai une biographie. C'est en fait quelque chose de plus utile sur une base horaire. Par exemple, pourquoi suis-je sur le point de dire ça à quelqu'un ou pourquoi vais-je faire cet acte en particulier ? Quelle est ma véritable motivation ici ? Et aussi, dans un sens plus large, pour apprendre comme je l'ai fait après quelques années à CNN, mon examen de ma vie est que je ne suis pas doué pour diriger des organisations complexes. Je ne suis pas génial en tant que manager, étant donné le choix. Je préfère que quelqu'un d'autre me gère plutôt que moi de gérer les gens. Mais il m'a fallu du temps pour comprendre cela. Et j’étais probablement trop ambitieux quand j’étais jeune et chez Time Magazine. C’était quand j’étais vert et, oh, eh bien, c’était quand j’étais dans mes jours de salade en vert et en jugement. Et c'était comme courir après le prochain niveau chez Time Incorporated, quel qu'il soit. Et puis un jour, j'ai attrapé le ring et je suis devenu rédacteur en chef, puis rédacteur en chef. Et après un moment, j'ai réalisé que ce n'était pas vraiment ce pour quoi je suis fait, surtout quand j'ai été nommé responsable de CNN. Je veux dire, tous les jeunes sont presque par définition dans leurs jours de salade en vert et en jugement. Mais vous apprenez ce qui vous motive.Et puis tu apprends à demander, mais est-ce vraiment ce que je veux ? Dois-je faire attention à ce que je souhaite ?

LEX : L'un des examens les plus importants que vous puissiez faire est le fait que vous et tout le monde mourrez un jour. Dans quelle mesure changez-vous, Isaacson ? Pensez à la mort. As-tu peur ?

WALTER : Non, et je n'y pense pas beaucoup. Mais je penseà propos de Steve Jobs, laissez-moi vous raconter une histoire, qui est la merveilleuse histoire de Steve Jobs, je pense, après son diagnostic, mais avant qu'elle ne soit publique. Et il a donné à la fois une conférence à Stanford, mais aussi d'autres choses, dans laquelle il a dit que le fait que nous allons mourir vous permet de vous concentrer et vous donne un sens. Si vous voulez vivre, et Elon Musk me l'a dit, c'est beaucoup de frères technologiques de la Silicon Valley qui cherchent des moyens de vivre éternellement. Je ne peux penser, dit Musk, à rien de pire. Nous lisons le mythe de Sisyphe et nous savons à quel point il est mauvais d'être condamné à la vie éternelle. Il y avait donc une Grèce antique, la personne qui marchait derrière le roi et lui disait : memento mori, souviens-toi que tu vas mourir. Et ça a empêché les gens de se perdre un peu. Pensez-vous à l'héritage? La chance d’être biographe, c’est que vous savez en quelque sorte quel est votre héritage. Il y aura une étagère et elle sera composée de personnes intéressantes et vous aurez inspiré quelque part un étudiant en biologie de 17 ans à devenir le prochain grand biochimiste ou quelqu'un à créer une entreprise comme Elon Musk. Et ce à quoi je pense le plus, je ne dirai pas redonner, c'est une chose tellement banale. Je suis retourné à la Nouvelle-Orléans pour une raison. Tout d’abord, l’ouragan a frappé. Et après Katrina, on m'a demandé d'être vice-président de l'autorité de rétablissement. Et j'ai réalisé que tout ce que j'avais à faire pour moi, tout venait de ce magnifique joyau d'une ville en difficulté. Le merveilleux lycée où je suis allé, les magnifiques rues où j'ai appris à faire du vélo et il y a des défis à relever. Je ne résoudrai jamais les défis au niveau mondial, mais je peux rentrer chez moi et dire qu'une partie de mon héritage sera le suivant : j'ai essayé de le rendre à ma ville natale, même en enseignant à Tulane, ce que je ne fais pas. Je ne fais pas une faveur. J'aime vraiment ça, mais c'est comme si, d'accord, je fais partie d'une communauté. Et je pense que nous perdons cela en Amérique parce que les gens qui se sentent seuls le sont parce qu'ils ne font pas partie d'une communauté. Mais j'ai tous mes lycéens, mes amis, ils sont tous toujours à la Nouvelle-Orléans. J'ai ma famille, mais j'ai aussi Tulane, des institutions de la Nouvelle-Orléans qui existent depuis toujours. Et si je peux m'impliquer en aidant le système scolaire de la Nouvelle-Orléans, en aidant les programmes d'autonomisation des jeunes, en aidant le centre d'innovation de Tulane, j'ai même fait partie de la commission d'urbanisme, qui s'inquiète des ordonnances de zonage pour les locations à court terme, tu sais, va comprendre. Mais c'était comme, non, m'immerger dans ma communauté parce que ma communauté était incroyablement douée pour me permettre de devenir celui que je suis devenu et a du mal, année après année, ouragan après ouragan, à s'assurer que chaque nouvelle génération puisse être créative. Et c'est une ville de créativité, du jazz à la gastronomie en passant par l'architecture. Alors quand j'y pense, je ne dirai pas héritage, mais que vais-je faire pour donner au suivant ? Ce qui est une manière inférieure de dire héritage. Je donne au suivant en retournant à l'endroit où j'ai commencé et en essayant de le connaître pour la première fois. C'était une arnaque d'une ligne TS Eliot. Je ne veux pas que tu penses que j'ai pensé à celui-là.

LEX : Cite toujours tes sources, je l'apprécie.

WALTER : TS Eliot, si jamais tu as besoin de comprendre , les quatre quatuors, cette partie de la fin, où nous ne cesserons pas d'explorer. Et la fin de toute notre exploration sera de revenir au point de départ et de le connaître pour la première fois à travers la porte inconnue mais à moitié mémorisée. C'est juste magnifique. Et cela a été une source d'inspiration pour ce que vous faites, je suppose que si c'est une pièce de Shakespeare, vous l'appelleriez l'acte cinq. Eh bien, vous retournez à l'endroit où vous êtes venu et ne vous inquiétez pas de l'héritage, mais vous resterez là à vous demander : comment puis-je m'assurer que quelqu'un d'autre puisse avoir une trajectoire magique commençant à la Nouvelle-Orléans ?

LEX : Eh bien, pour moi, vous êtes l'un des plus grands conteurs de tous les temps. Je suis un grand fan.

WALTER : Certainement pas vrai, mais c'est si gentil de ta part.

LEX : Tu vois, tu peux être - Brutalement interrompant. Je pense probablement à Ben Franklin, donc pendant je ne sais pas combien d'années, 15 ans, Einstein jusqu'à aujourd'hui, j'ai juste été un grand fan de vous. Et vous faites partie des personnes qui, je pensais, ne s'abaisseraient sûrement pas à comparaître et à avoir une conversation avec moi. Et c'est juste un cadeau géant pour moi.

WALTER : Hé, j'ai pris l'avion pour Austin pour ça parce que je suis un grand fan et surtout un grand fan parce que tu prends les gens au sérieux et que tu t'en soucies.

LEX : Merci mille fois. Merci de me respecter et d'inspirer des millions de personnes avec vos histoires. Encore une fois, une narration incroyable, un humain incroyable. Et merci d'avoir parlé aujourd'hui.

WALTER : Merci, Alex.

LEX : Merci d'avoir écouté cette conversation avec Walter Isaacson pour soutenir ce podcast. Veuillez consulter nos sponsors dans la description.Et maintenant, laissez-moi vous laisser avec l'une de mes citations préférées de Carl Jung. Les gens sont prêts à tout, aussi absurde soit-il, pour éviter d’affronter leur propre âme. On ne devient pasilluminé en imaginant des figures de lumière, mais en rendant conscientes les ténèbres. Merci de votre écoute et j'espère vous revoir la prochaine fois.

French transcription subtitles:

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J'espère qu'avec mes livres je dis

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ce n'est pas un guide pratique,

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mais c'est quelqu'un avec qui vous pouvez marcher.

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Tu peux voir

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Einstein a grandi juif en Allemagne.

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Vous pouvez voir Jennifer Doudna grandir

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en tant qu'étranger ou Léonard de Vinci ou Elon Musk dans une Afrique du Sud vraiment violente

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avec un

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père psychologiquement difficile.

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Et descendre du train quand il va à la lutte contre l'apartheid

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concert avec son frère et il y a

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un homme avec un couteau qui sort de la tête et ils marchent

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dans la mare de sang et cela colle à leurs âmes.

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Ce qui provoque

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cicatrices

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qui durera le reste de votre vie.

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Et la question n'est pas

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comment éviter d'avoir des cicatrices ?

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C'est comment gérez-vous cela ?

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Ce qui suit est une conversation avec Walter Isaacson,

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l'un des plus grands auteurs de biographies de tous les temps.

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Ayant écrit des livres incroyables sur Albert Einstein,

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Steve Jobs,

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Léonard de Vinci,

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Jennifer Doudna, Benjamin Franklin,

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Henri Kissinger,

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et maintenant un nouveau sur Elon Musk.

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Nous avons parlé pendant des heures au micro et hors du micro.

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Je suis sûr que nous en reparlerons plusieurs fois.

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Walter est un écrivain, penseur, observateur vraiment spécial,

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et l'être humain.

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Je recommande fortement aux gens de lire son nouveau livre sur Elon.

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Je suis sûr qu'il y aura une controverse à court terme,

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mais

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à long terme, je pense que cela inspirera des millions de jeunes,

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surtout avec des enfances difficiles,

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avec des difficultés dans leur environnement ou dans leur propre esprit,

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s'attaquer aux problèmes les plus difficiles du

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monde et de trouver des solutions à ces problèmes,

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peu importe à quel point les chances sont impossibles.

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Dans cette conversation,

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Walter et moi couvrons tous ses livres et utilisons leurs histoires personnelles pour

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parler des grands principes de la recherche de la grandeur en science,

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en technologie,

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l'ingénierie, l'art,

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politique,

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et la vie.

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Il y a beaucoup de choses dans le nouveau livre d'Elon qui, à mon avis, seraient mieux conservées.

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car quand je parle à nouveau directement à Elon sur ce podcast,

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ce qui arrivera bien assez tôt.

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C'est peut-être aussi bien de mentionner ici que mes amitiés comme avec Elon,

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ni aucune autre influence comme l'argent, l'accès, la renommée, le pouvoir ne m'obligera jamais à sacrifier mon intégrité,

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jamais.

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J'aime célébrer le bien des gens,

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faire preuve d'empathie et comprendre,

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mais j'aime aussi dénoncer les gens pour leurs conneries

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avec respect et avec compassion.

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Si j'échoue,

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J'échoue par manque de compétence,

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pas un manque d’intégrité.

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Je vais travailler dur pour m'améliorer.

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Ceci est le podcast Lex Friedman.

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Pour le soutenir, veuillez consulter nos sponsors dans la description.

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Et maintenant, chers amis,

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voici Walter Isaacson.

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Quelle est la place d’une enfance difficile dans la vie des grands hommes et femmes, des grands esprits ?

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Est-ce une exigence ?

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Est-ce un catalyseur ou est-ce juste un simple hasard du sort ?

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Eh bien, ce n'est pas une obligation.

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Certaines personnes avec une enfance heureuse et qui s'en sortent plutôt bien,

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mais il est certainement vrai que beaucoup de gens vraiment motivés le sont parce qu'ils exploitent

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les démons de leur enfance.

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Même la phrase de Barack Obama dans ses mémoires,

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c'est-à-dire que je pense que tout homme qui réussit essaie soit d'être à la hauteur des attentes de son père

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ou vivre les péchés de son père.

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Et pour Elon, c'est particulièrement vrai parce qu'il avait

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à la fois une enfance violente et difficile et un père très problématique psychologiquement.

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Il a ces démons qui dansent dans sa tête

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et en les exploitant,

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c'est

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une partie de la raison

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qu'il fait plus risqué, plus aventureux,

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plus sauvage

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des choses que je ne ferais peut-être jamais.

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J'ai écrit qu'Elon parlait de son père

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et que parfois cela ressemblait à une torture mentale,

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l'interaction avec lui pendant son enfance.

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Pouvez-vous décrire certains des

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des choses que vous avez apprises ?

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Ouais, eh bien, Elon et Kimball me diraient ça,

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Par exemple,

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quand Elon s'est fait harceler sur le terrain de jeu

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et un jour, on l'a poussé sur des marches en béton et on lui a frappé le visage

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à tel point que Kimball a dit :

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Je n'arrivais pas vraiment à le reconnaître.

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Je veux dire, il était à l'hôpital

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pendant presque une semaine.

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Mais quand il rentra à la maison,

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Elon a dû se tenir devant son père et son

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son père l'a réprimandé pendant plus d'une heure

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et a dit qu'il était stupide et a pris le parti du

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personne qui l'avait battu.

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C'est probablement l'un des événements les plus traumatisants de la vie d'Elon.

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Oui.

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Et il y a aussi l'école Veld,

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qui est une sorte de camp paramilitaire que les jeunes du Sud

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Les garçons africains y ont été envoyés.

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Et à un moment donné,

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il était maigre.

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Il a très mal à capter les signaux sociaux

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et les signaux émotionnels.

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Il parle d'être Asperger.

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Et donc il est traumatisé dans un camp comme celui-là.

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Mais la deuxième fois qu'il y est allé,

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il avait grandi.

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Il avait grimpé jusqu'à près de six pieds et il avait appris

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un peu de judo.

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Et il s'est rendu compte que s'il se faisait tabasser,

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ça pourrait lui faire du mal,

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mais il se contentait de frapper la personne au nez aussi fort que possible.

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De sorte que

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le sentiment de toujours riposter

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a également été ancré chez Elon.

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J'ai passé beaucoup de temps à parler à Errol Musk,

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son père.

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Elon ne parle plus à Errol Musk, son père,

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Kimball non plus.

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Cela fait des années.

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Et Errol n'a même pas l'email d'Elon.

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Alors bien souvent,

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Errol m'enverra des e-mails.

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Et Errol en avait un

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Personnalités Jekyll et Hyde.

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Il était

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un grand esprit d'ingénierie et surtout de science des matériaux.

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Je savais comment construire un camp en pleine nature en Afrique du Sud en utilisant du mica et comment il ne conduirait pas la chaleur.

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Mais il entrerait aussi dans ces périodes sombres

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dans lequel il serait simplement psychologiquement abusif.

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Et bien sûr,

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May Musk me dit :

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sa mère, qui a divorcé très tôt d'Errol, a déclaré :

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le danger pour Elon est qu'il devienne son père.

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Et de temps en temps tu étais avec lui alors

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beaucoup, Lex, et tu le connais bien.

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Il te parlera même des démons,

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à propos de Diablo dansant

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sa tête.

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Je veux dire, il comprend, il est conscient de lui-même,

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mais vous l'avez probablement vu à des moments où

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ces démons prennent le dessus et il devient très sombre et très silencieux.

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Et Grimes

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dit, je peux dire à un

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minute ou deux à l’avance lorsque le mode démon est sur le point de se produire.

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Et il deviendra un peu sombre.

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J'étais ici à

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Austin une fois lors d'un dîner avec un groupe.

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Et on pouvait dire que soudain quelque chose l'avait déclenché

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et il allait devenir sombre.

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Je l'ai regardé lors de réunions où quelqu'un disait :

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nous ne pouvons pas faire cette partie

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pour moins de 200 $ ou non, c'est faux.

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Et il les réprimandera.

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Et puis il s'en sort.

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Comme vous le savez aussi, l'énorme cliché où tout à coup il vous montre un sketch des Monty Python sur son téléphone et

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il plaisante sur des choses.

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Donc je pense qu'en sortant de l'enfance,

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il y avait juste plusieurs facettes,

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peut-être même de nombreuses personnalités, le mode ingénierie,

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le mode idiot, le mode charismatique, le mode visionnaire,

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mais aussi le démon en mode sombre.

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Une citation que vous avez citée à propos d’Elon m’a vraiment marqué.

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J'oublie de qui ça venait,

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mais à l'intérieur de l'homme,

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il est toujours là quand il est enfant,

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l'enfant debout devant son père.

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C'était Tallulah,

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sa seconde épouse.

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Et elle est géniale.

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C'est une actrice anglaise.

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En fait, ils se sont mariés deux fois.

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Et Tallulah a dit que c'était juste lui, celui de son enfance.

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C'est un accro au théâtre.

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Kimball le dit aussi.

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Et j'ai demandé pourquoi.

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Et Tallulah a dit

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pour lui,

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l'amour et la famille

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sont en quelque sorte associés à ces tourments psychologiques.

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Et à bien des égards,

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il va canaliser.

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Je veux dire, Tallulah serait avec lui en 2008 lorsque l'entreprise ferait faillite ou quoi que ce soit.

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l’ont été ou plus tard.

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Et il serait tellement stressé qu’il vomirait.

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Et puis il canaliserait les choses

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que son père avait dit,

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utiliser des phrases que son père lui avait dites.

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Et alors elle m'a dit,

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au fond de l'homme se trouve cet homme-enfant toujours debout devant son père.

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Dans quelle mesure est-ce vrai pour beaucoup d’entre nous, pensez-vous ?

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Je pense que c'est vrai,

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mais de différentes manières.

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Je vais dire quelque chose de personnel,

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c'est-à-dire que j'étais

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béni et c'est peut-être aussi un inconvénient,

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avec le fait que j'avais le meilleur

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père que vous pourriez imaginer et mère.

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C'étaient les personnes les plus gentilles que l'on puisse souhaiter

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rencontrer.

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J'ai grandi dans un endroit magique à la Nouvelle-Orléans.

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Mon père était ingénieur, ingénieur électricien.

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Et il a toujours été gentil.

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Peut-être

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Je ne suis pas aussi motivé ni aussi fou.

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Je n'ai pas à prouver les choses.

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Je peux donc écrire sur Elon Musk.

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Je peux écrire sur Einstein ou Steve Jobs

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ou Léonard de Vinci,

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qui, comme tu le sais,

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était totalement déchiré par des démons et a eu différentes difficultés

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situations d'enfance, même pas légitimées par son père.

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Alors parfois, ceux d'entre nous qui ont de la chance

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assez pour avoir vraiment doux,

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douce enfance,

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nous grandissons avec moins de démons,

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mais nous grandissons avec

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moins de trajets et on finit peut-être

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étant Boswell et n'étant pas le Dr.

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Johnson.

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Nous finissons par être l'observateur,

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ne pas être l'auteur.

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Et donc je respecte toujours ceux qui sont dans l’arène.

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Vous ne vous considérez pas comme un homme dans l’arène.

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J'ai eu

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un doux,

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douce carrière

235
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et je dois couvrir des personnes vraiment intéressantes,

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mais je n'ai jamais lancé de fusée qui pourrait un jour atteindre Mars.

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Je ne nous ai jamais emménagé

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00:10:28,980 --> 00:10:30,080
l’air des véhicules électriques.

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00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:33,640
Je ne suis jamais resté éveillé toute la nuit dans une usine.

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Je n'en ai pas vraiment

241
00:10:39,340 --> 00:10:42,320
soit les lecteurs, soit le

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dépendance au risque.

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Je veux dire, Elon est accro au risque.

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00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:50,460
Il est accro à l'aventure.

245
00:10:51,260 --> 00:10:53,820
Moi, si je vois quelque chose de risqué,

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Je passe du temps à calculer,

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ok, c'est à l'envers ici.

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00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:05,000
Mais c'est une autre raison pour laquelle des gens comme Elon Musk font avancer les choses

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et des gens comme moi écrivent sur les Elon Musk.

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Un autre aspect de cela,

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étant donné une enfance difficile,

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que ce soit Elon ou DaVinci,

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Je me demande s'il y a une certaine sagesse,

254
00:11:21,740 --> 00:11:24,500
quelques conseils presque que tu peux dessiner,

255
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,280
que vous pouvez offrir aux personnes ayant eu une enfance difficile.

256
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:30,820
Je pense que nous avons tous des démons,

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00:11:31,140 --> 00:11:34,960
même ceux d'entre nous qui ont grandi dans une partie magique du Nouveau

258
00:11:34,980 --> 00:11:36,660
Orléans avec des parents adorables.

259
00:11:37,700 --> 00:11:38,540
Nous avons tous des démons.

260
00:11:42,060 --> 00:11:44,660
La première règle de la vie est d’exploiter vos démons.

261
00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:48,860
Sachez que vous êtes ambitieux ou pas ambitieux ou que vous êtes paresseux ou autre.

262
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,160
Leonardo DaVinci savait qu'il était un procrastinateur.

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Je pense

264
00:11:56,220 --> 00:11:57,840
c'est utile de savoir

265
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qu'est-ce qu'on t'a mangé,

266
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:01,520
savoir comment l'exploiter.

267
00:12:03,870 --> 00:12:06,020
Sachez également dans quoi vous êtes doué.

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00:12:06,700 --> 00:12:08,820
Je prendrai Musk comme autre exemple.

269
00:12:10,460 --> 00:12:12,160
Je ressemble un peu plus à Kimball Musk

270
00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:13,380
qu'Elon.

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00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,900
Je suis peut-être devenu trop doté du gène de l'empathie.

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00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:19,000
Qu'est-ce que cela signifie?

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00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:19,900
Bien,

274
00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,220
ça veut dire que j'allais bien quand je dirigeais Time Magazine.

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00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,360
Il s'agissait d'un groupe d'environ 150 personnes réparties dans les salles de rédaction et

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00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:28,960
Je les connaissais tous et

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00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:30,380
nous avons passé un moment joyeux.

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00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:31,760
Quand je suis allé sur CNN,

279
00:12:32,420 --> 00:12:33,680
je n'étais pas très bon

280
00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,360
en tant que gestionnaire ou dirigeant d'une organisation.

281
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:40,800
Je m'en souciais un peu trop

282
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:46,320
que les gens n'étaient pas ennuyés ou en colère contre moi.

283
00:12:47,020 --> 00:12:48,960
Elon a dit ça à propos de John McNeil,

284
00:12:49,140 --> 00:12:51,160
par exemple, qui était président de Tesla.

285
00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:52,440
C'est dans le livre.

286
00:12:52,580 --> 00:12:54,300
J'ai parlé longtemps à John McNeil

287
00:12:54,860 --> 00:12:55,680
et il dit,

288
00:12:56,850 --> 00:12:58,080
Elon juste

289
00:12:58,600 --> 00:12:59,600
licencierait des gens.

290
00:12:59,740 --> 00:13:01,080
Il est vraiment dur avec les gens.

291
00:13:01,380 --> 00:13:04,400
Il n’avait pas l’empathie pour les gens en face de lui.

292
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,240
Elon dit, ouais, c'est vrai.

293
00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:08,780
John McNeil ne pouvait pas licencier des gens.

294
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,400
Il se souciait davantage de plaire aux gens en face de lui

295
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,160
que de plaire à l'ensemble de l'entreprise ou de faire avancer les choses.

296
00:13:16,740 --> 00:13:22,600
Être trop doté du désir de plaire aux gens peut faire de vous un manager moins coriace.

297
00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,800
Cela ne veut pas dire qu’il n’y a pas de gens formidables qui sont surdoués.

298
00:13:28,140 --> 00:13:28,820
Ben Franklin,

299
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,020
surdoué du désir de plaire aux gens.

300
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:38,330
La pire critique à son égard de la part de John Adams et d'autres était qu'il insinuait,

301
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,620
ce qui signifiait qu'il essayait toujours de

302
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,160
amener les gens à l'aimer.

303
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,320
Mais cela s'est avéré être une bonne chose quand ils n'arrivent pas à comprendre le grand État,

304
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,480
petite question d'État à la Convention constitutionnelle,

305
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,660
quand ils n'arrivent pas à comprendre le Traité de Paris, quel qu'il soit,

306
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,940
il rassemble les gens et c'est son super pouvoir.

307
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:02,020
Donc, pour revenir aux leçons que vous avez demandées,

308
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,800
et la première était d'exploiter vos démons.

309
00:14:05,780 --> 00:14:09,080
La seconde est de connaître vos points forts et votre super pouvoir.

310
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:11,840
Mon super pouvoir

311
00:14:12,460 --> 00:14:14,120
ce n'est certainement pas être un manager coriace.

312
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,980
Après avoir diffusé CNN pendant un moment, j'ai dit, d'accord,

313
00:14:17,580 --> 00:14:19,280
J'ai prouvé que je ne le savais pas vraiment

314
00:14:19,300 --> 00:14:21,120
profitez-en ou sachez comment bien le faire.

315
00:14:22,060 --> 00:14:25,340
Est-ce que j'ai d'autres talents ?

316
00:14:25,420 --> 00:14:26,120
Ouais, je pense que j'ai

317
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,820
le talent d'observer les gens de très près,

318
00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,760
écrire à ce sujet d'une manière directe,

319
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:34,220
mais j'espère un style narratif intéressant.

320
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:35,380
C'est un pouvoir.

321
00:14:35,780 --> 00:14:37,760
C'est totalement différent de diriger une organisation.

322
00:14:38,140 --> 00:14:46,840
Il m'a fallu attendre trois ans à la tête de CNN pour réaliser que je n'étais pas fait pour être un cadre dans un domaine vraiment

323
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:48,900
très intense

324
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,400
situations.

325
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,860
Elon Musk est désigné pour être un cadre dans un environnement très intense

326
00:14:55,860 --> 00:14:59,480
situations à tel point que lorsque les choses deviennent moins intenses,

327
00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:02,360
alors qu'ils fabriquent suffisamment de voitures et

328
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:05,400
les fusées montent et atterrissent,

329
00:15:06,340 --> 00:15:08,500
il pense à autre chose pour pouvoir sursauter

330
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:09,660
et avoir plus d'intensité.

331
00:15:09,860 --> 00:15:15,220
Il est accro à l'intensité et c'est son super pouvoir,

332
00:15:15,260 --> 00:15:18,320
ce qui est bien plus grand que le super pouvoir d’être un bon observateur.

333
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:19,920
Mais je pense aussi

334
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,040
pour construire là-dessus,

335
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:23,600
ce n'est pas seulement une dépendance

336
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,440
au risque et au drame.

337
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,560
Il y a toujours une grande mission

338
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:30,940
Au dessus de.

339
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:38,240
Je dirais donc que c'est une empathie envers les gens dans leur ensemble.

340
00:15:39,180 --> 00:15:43,480
C'est une empathie envers l'humanité plus que l'empathie envers

341
00:15:44,020 --> 00:15:45,080
les trois ou quatre humains

342
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,280
qui pourrait être assis dans la salle de conférence avec vous.

343
00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:49,120
Et c'est un gros problème.

344
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:50,900
Vous voyez cela dans beaucoup

345
00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:51,220
de personnes.

346
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,500
Vous le voyez, Bill Gates, Larry Summers,

347
00:15:56,020 --> 00:15:56,560
Elon Musk.

348
00:15:57,660 --> 00:16:01,500
Ils ont toujours de l'empathie pour eux

349
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,600
grands objectifs de l’humanité.

350
00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:09,800
Et parfois, ils n’ont aucune idée des émotions des gens devant eux.

351
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:11,200
d'eux ou insensibles parfois.

352
00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:13,640
Musk, comme tu l'as dit,

353
00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:18,640
est motivé par la mission plus que toute autre personne que j'ai jamais vue.

354
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:20,840
Et ce n'est pas seulement une mission,

355
00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:22,220
c'est comme des missions cosmiques,

356
00:16:23,420 --> 00:16:25,420
ce qui veut dire qu'il en a trois vraiment gros

357
00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:26,460
missions.

358
00:16:26,900 --> 00:16:27,400
Un

359
00:16:28,180 --> 00:16:31,400
est de faire des humains une civilisation spatiale,

360
00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:35,400
rendez-nous multiplanétaires ou amenez-nous sur Mars.

361
00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:39,760
Deuxièmement, nous faire entrer dans l'ère de l'énergie durable,

362
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,780
pour nous amener dans l’ère des véhicules électriques et des toits solaires et

363
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:46,260
blocs-piles.

364
00:16:47,020 --> 00:16:48,300
Et le troisième est de faire

365
00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:50,520
bien sûr que l'intelligence artificielle

366
00:16:51,060 --> 00:16:53,700
est sécuritaire et conforme aux valeurs humaines.

367
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,820
Et de temps en temps, je lui parlais et nous parlions des satellites Starlink ou autre.

368
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,960
Ou il pousserait les gens devant lui à SpaceX

369
00:17:04,540 --> 00:17:05,680
et disant, si tu fais ça,

370
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:06,640
nous n'y arriverons jamais

371
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:07,600
Mars de notre vivant.

372
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,660
Et puis il donnerait une conférence sur l'importance que cela revêtait pour la conscience humaine.

373
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,500
aller sur Mars de notre vivant.

374
00:17:13,980 --> 00:17:17,800
Et je me dis, ok, c'est le discours d'encouragement de quelqu'un qui essaie de

375
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:23,060
inspirer une équipe ou peut-être est-ce un type de pontification que vous faites sur un podcast.

376
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:24,660
Mais comme le 20

377
00:17:24,780 --> 00:17:26,460
la fois où je l'ai regardé, j'ai réalisé,

378
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:27,080
d'accord,

379
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,240
Je le crois.

380
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,120
En fait, c'est ce qui le motive.

381
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:32,120
Il est

382
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:38,620
frustré et en colère qu'à cause de cette décision technique mineure,

383
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,820
la grande mission ne sera pas accomplie.

384
00:17:41,940 --> 00:17:42,720
Ce n'est pas un discours d'encouragement.

385
00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:43,960
C'est une véritable frustration.

386
00:17:45,020 --> 00:17:46,900
Et une impatience, une frustration.

387
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:55,040
Et c'est aussi probablement la chose la plus profondément ancrée en lui

388
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:56,720
est sa mission.

389
00:17:57,140 --> 00:18:02,780
Il m'a plaisanté à un moment donné en disant à quel point il aimait lire des bandes dessinées lorsqu'il était enfant.

390
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:05,220
Et il a dit, à tous les gens des bandes dessinées,

391
00:18:05,980 --> 00:18:07,540
ils essaient de sauver le monde,

392
00:18:07,580 --> 00:18:10,760
mais ils portent leurs caleçons à l'extérieur et ils ont l'air ridicules.

393
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,140
Et puis il s'est arrêté et a dit :

394
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,220
mais ils essaient de sauver le monde.

395
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,240
Et si c'est Starlink en Ukraine

396
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:24,720
ou Starship allant sur Mars ou essayant d'obtenir une nouvelle Tesla mondiale,

397
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:30,120
Je pense qu'il a ce sens épique du rôle qu'il va jouer

398
00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:33,080
en aidant l'humanité sur de grandes choses.

399
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:35,380
Et comme

400
00:18:36,060 --> 00:18:38,520
les personnages des bandes dessinées,

401
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:40,420
c'est parfois ridicule,

402
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,060
mais c'est aussi parfois vrai.

403
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:45,600
Quand je lisais cette partie du livre,

404
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,780
Je pensais à tous les jeunes qui sont

405
00:18:51,140 --> 00:18:52,180
lutter de cette façon.

406
00:18:52,220 --> 00:18:54,740
Et je pense que beaucoup de gens le sont de différentes manières,

407
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,080
s'ils grandissent sans père,

408
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,280
s'ils grandissent avec des abus physiques, émotionnels et mentaux

409
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:00,900
ou des démons de toute sorte,

410
00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:01,740
comme vous en avez parlé.

411
00:19:02,220 --> 00:19:04,380
Et c'est vraiment pénible à lire,

412
00:19:04,380 --> 00:19:06,460
mais aussi vraiment inspirant

413
00:19:07,420 --> 00:19:08,480
que si tu

414
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,800
je marche en quelque sorte côte à côte avec ces démons,

415
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,620
si tu ne laisses pas

416
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:17,480
cette douleur te brise

417
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:19,280
ou d'une manière ou d'une autre, canalisez-le,

418
00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:20,660
si tu peux le dire de cette façon,

419
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:21,680
que vous pouvez réaliser,

420
00:19:21,860 --> 00:19:23,340
vous pouvez faire de grandes choses dans ce monde.

421
00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:27,560
Eh bien, c'est une vision épique de la raison pour laquelle nous écrivons

422
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,420
biographie, qui est plus épique que ce à quoi je pensais.

423
00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:32,900
Alors je dis merci

424
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,260
parce que d'une certaine manière, ce que vous essayez de faire, c'est de dire :

425
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,760
ok, je veux dire, Leonardo, tu parles d'être un inadapté,

426
00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:42,720
il est né illégitime

427
00:19:43,540 --> 00:19:48,180
dans le village de Vinci et il est gay et il est gaucher et il est distrait

428
00:19:48,980 --> 00:19:51,960
et son père ne le légitimera pas.

429
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:58,980
Et puis il s'en va vers la ville de Florence et il devient

430
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,720
le plus grand artiste et ingénieur

431
00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:03,560
de cette partie de la Renaissance.

432
00:20:05,220 --> 00:20:06,920
J'espère que ce livre inspire.

433
00:20:06,980 --> 00:20:07,820
Jennifer Doudna,

434
00:20:08,660 --> 00:20:12,620
le pionnier de l'édition génétique qui aide à découvrir CRISPR,

435
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:14,120
outil d'édition génétique,

436
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,540
lequel mon livre, The Code Breaker,

437
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,520
elle a grandi en se sentant inadaptée à Hawaï,

438
00:20:20,620 --> 00:20:23,860
dans un village polynésien étant le seul blanc

439
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,060
et aussi essayer d'être à la hauteur d'un père qui l'a poussée.

440
00:20:27,220 --> 00:20:30,360
Donc si les gens peuvent lire les livres,

441
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:33,060
et j'aurais dû dire à propos de Jennifer Doudna,

442
00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:36,740
Ce que je voulais dire, c'est que son conseiller d'orientation scolaire lui avait dit :

443
00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:38,120
non, les filles ne font pas de sciences.

444
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:39,760
Vous savez, la science n'est pas pour les filles.

445
00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:41,480
Vous n'allez pas faire de mathématiques ou de sciences.

446
00:20:42,220 --> 00:20:44,900
Et donc ça la pousse à dire, d'accord,

447
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:47,060
Je vais faire des mathématiques et des sciences.

448
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:48,920
Juste pour vous interrompre très rapidement,

449
00:20:49,740 --> 00:20:50,560
mais Jennifer Doudna,

450
00:20:50,940 --> 00:20:54,200
vous avez écrit un livre incroyable sur elle, lauréate du prix Nobel,

451
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,200
Développeur CRISPR, tout simplement incroyable, l'un des grands scientifiques du 21e siècle.

452
00:20:58,520 --> 00:20:58,800
Droite.

453
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,800
Et je parle de l'époque où Jennifer Doudna était jeune

454
00:21:02,340 --> 00:21:03,600
et elle se sentait vraiment,

455
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,480
vraiment pas à sa place,

456
00:21:04,780 --> 00:21:08,600
comme toi et moi et beaucoup de gens quand ils ressentent cela,

457
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:09,460
ils lisent des livres,

458
00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:11,540
ils se recroquevillent avec le livre.

459
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,300
Alors son père laisse tomber un livre sur son lit intitulé La Double Hélix,

460
00:21:15,420 --> 00:21:23,240
le livre de James Watson sur la découverte de la structure de l'ADN par lui et Rosalind Franklin et Francis Crick.

461
00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:27,020
Et elle réalise, oh mon Dieu,

462
00:21:27,660 --> 00:21:29,080
les filles peuvent devenir scientifiques.

463
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,020
Mon conseiller d'orientation scolaire se trompe.

464
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,960
Donc je pense que les livres,

465
00:21:36,980 --> 00:21:38,820
comme si elle avait lu ce livre,

466
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,120
et même si c'est une bande dessinée,

467
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,720
comme l'a lu Elon Musk,

468
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,300
les livres peuvent parfois vous inspirer.

469
00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:48,660
Et chacun de mes livres parle de gens qui sont

470
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:50,340
totalement innovant,

471
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,200
qui n'étaient pas seulement intelligents,

472
00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:54,220
parce qu'aucun de nous ne le sera

473
00:21:54,220 --> 00:21:57,180
capable d'égaler Einstein et la puissance de traitement mental.

474
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,060
Mais nous pouvons être aussi curieux que lui

475
00:22:01,060 --> 00:22:04,060
et créatif et sortir des sentiers battus comme il l'a fait,

476
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,280
ou Steve Jobs l'a dit, pensez différemment.

477
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,160
Et donc j'espère qu'avec mes livres, je dis

478
00:22:11,660 --> 00:22:13,380
ce n'est pas un guide pratique,

479
00:22:13,860 --> 00:22:14,660
mais c'est quelqu'un

480
00:22:14,660 --> 00:22:15,860
vous pouvez marcher à côté.

481
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:17,460
Tu peux voir

482
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,080
Einstein a grandi juif en Allemagne.

483
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:22,740
Tu peux voir Jennifer

484
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:28,660
Doudna grandissant en outsider ou Léonard de Vinci ou Elon Musk

485
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,580
en Afrique du Sud vraiment violente

486
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:34,960
avec un père psychologiquement difficile.

487
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,340
Et descendre du train quand il va à la lutte contre l'apartheid

488
00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:39,500
concert avec son frère,

489
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:40,460
et il y a

490
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,940
un homme avec un couteau qui sort de la tête,

491
00:22:44,340 --> 00:22:47,340
et ils entrent dans la mare de sang et cela colle à leur âme.

492
00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:49,580
Ce qui provoque

493
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,580
cicatrices

494
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,020
qui dure le reste de votre vie.

495
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,420
Et la question n'est pas

496
00:22:56,940 --> 00:22:59,060
comment éviter d'avoir des cicatrices ?

497
00:22:59,260 --> 00:23:00,820
C'est comment gérez-vous cela ?

498
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:02,600
Einstein aussi,

499
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:11,040
une de mes, et c'est difficile de choisir ma préférée parmi vos biographies, mais Einstein,

500
00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:14,320
Je veux dire, tu dresses vraiment le portrait d'un autre,

501
00:23:15,140 --> 00:23:16,440
Je ne veux pas le traiter d'inadapté,

502
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:23,000
mais une personne qui n'a pas nécessairement une trajectoire standard dans une vie de réussite.

503
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,140
C'est donc extrêmement inspirant.

504
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,420
Je ne sais pas exactement quelle question poser.

505
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:32,000
Il y en a un million.

506
00:23:32,020 --> 00:23:33,980
Eh bien, je vais parler des inadaptés pendant une seconde,

507
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:36,240
parce que nous avons dit que Leonardo était ainsi.

508
00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:41,400
Einstein est juif en Allemagne à une époque où les choses commencent à devenir difficiles.

509
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:43,980
Il apprend lentement à parler

510
00:23:44,660 --> 00:23:46,220
et c'est un penseur visuel.

511
00:23:46,260 --> 00:23:48,400
Alors il rêve toujours et imagine des choses.

512
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,640
La première fois qu'il postule à l'Ecole Polytechnique de Zurich,

513
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,800
parce qu'il fuit les Allemands

514
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,180
système éducatif parce que c'est trop d'apprentissage par cœur.

515
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:01,600
Il est rejeté par l'école polytechnique de Zurich.

516
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,160
Aujourd'hui, c'est la deuxième meilleure école de Zurich et ils rejettent Einstein.

517
00:24:05,260 --> 00:24:06,120
J'ai essayé de trouver,

518
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:10,240
mais je n'ai pas pu citer le nom du conseiller d'admission de l'école polytechnique de Zurich.

519
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:11,960
Comme si tu avais rejeté Einstein.

520
00:24:12,620 --> 00:24:15,660
Et puis il ne termine pas dans la première moitié de sa classe.

521
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:17,920
Et une fois qu'il l'a fait

522
00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:22,440
et il va aux études supérieures, ils n'acceptent pas sa thèse.

523
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:23,940
Il ne peut donc pas trouver de travail.

524
00:24:23,980 --> 00:24:25,340
Il ne l'enseigne pas.

525
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:28,560
Il essaie même environ 14 lycées différents,

526
00:24:28,780 --> 00:24:31,260
gymnase pour trouver un emploi et ils

527
00:24:31,260 --> 00:24:31,980
ne le prendra pas.

528
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:36,160
Il est donc examinateur de troisième classe à l'Office suisse des brevets en 1905.

529
00:24:36,980 --> 00:24:40,660
Troisième classe parce qu'ils ont rejeté sa thèse de doctorat.

530
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,120
Et donc il ne peut pas être de deuxième ou de première classe

531
00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:45,620
parce qu'il n'a pas de doctorat.

532
00:24:46,260 --> 00:24:47,940
Et pourtant, il est assis là, sur le tabouret,

533
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,000
l'office des brevets en 1905

534
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:51,420
et écrit

535
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:55,760
trois articles qui transforment totalement la science.

536
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:58,240
Et si tu penses à être

537
00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:02,180
incompris ou méconnu en 1906,

538
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:03,040
il est encore un troisième

539
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:03,580
brevet de classe.

540
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,020
En 1907, il l'est toujours.

541
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,400
Il a fallu attendre 1909 pour que les gens réalisent que

542
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,540
La notion de théorie de la relativité pourrait être correcte et pourrait bouleverser toute la physique newtonienne.

543
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,240
Comment est-ce possible

544
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,320
pour que trois des plus grands articles de l'histoire des sciences soient rédigés

545
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,440
en un an par cette seule personne ?

546
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,460
Y a-t-il des idées,

547
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,100
les sagesses que tu dessines ?

548
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,020
De plus, il est examinateur de brevets en dehors de son travail quotidien.

549
00:25:29,140 --> 00:25:30,480
Et il y a vraiment trois papiers,

550
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:31,880
mais il y a aussi un addendum

551
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,420
parce qu'une fois que vous avez compris la théorie quantique, vous comprenez ensuite la relativité

552
00:25:36,420 --> 00:25:40,180
et tu comprends les équations de Maxwell et la vitesse de la lumière,

553
00:25:41,140 --> 00:25:42,940
il fait un petit addendum.

554
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,680
C'est l'équation la plus célèbre de toute la physique.

555
00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:48,480
qui est E est égal à MC au carré.

556
00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:50,600
C'est donc une plutôt bonne année.

557
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,900
Cela commence en partie parce qu'il est un penseur visuel.

558
00:25:54,940 --> 00:25:56,160
Et je pense que c'était utile

559
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:02,800
qu'il était au bureau des brevets plutôt que d'être l'acolyte d'un professeur du

560
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,980
académie où il était censé suivre les règles.

561
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,560
Et donc le bureau des brevets a dit de faire

562
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:12,300
des appareils pour synchroniser les horloges car les Suisses viennent de passer aux fuseaux horaires standards

563
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,300
et les Suisses, comme vous le savez, ont tendance à être plutôt Suisses.

564
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:16,700
Ils s'en soucient si ça frappe

565
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:18,480
l'heure à Bâle,

566
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:20,880
il devrait faire de même et brûler exactement à la fin.

567
00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:24,120
Il faut donc envoyer un signal lumineux entre deux horloges distantes.

568
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,360
Et il visualise à quoi cela ressemblera de rouler à côté d'un faisceau lumineux.

569
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,900
Il dit, eh bien, si tu le rattrapes,

570
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:32,900
si tu vas presque aussi vite,

571
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:33,840
ça aura l'air stationnaire.

572
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,220
Mais les équations de Maxwell

573
00:26:35,780 --> 00:26:36,760
ne permettez pas cela.

574
00:26:36,780 --> 00:26:37,200
Et il a dit,

575
00:26:37,580 --> 00:26:40,440
il fait transpirer mes paumes tellement j'étais inquiète.

576
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,500
Et donc il a finalement compris parce qu'il regardait ces appareils pour synchroniser les horloges,

577
00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:48,300
que si tu voyages vraiment très vite,

578
00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:52,840
ce qui vous semble synchrone ou synchronisé est

579
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,280
différent de celui de quelqu'un qui voyage très vite dans l'autre sens.

580
00:26:56,900 --> 00:26:58,940
Et il fait le saut mental cette fois-là

581
00:26:59,940 --> 00:27:02,120
que la vitesse de la lumière est toujours constante,

582
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,600
mais le temps est relatif en fonction de votre état de mouvement.

583
00:27:05,220 --> 00:27:08,640
C'était donc ce genre de réflexion hors des sentiers battus, ces sauts

584
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,140
cela a fait de 1905 son année miracle.

585
00:27:12,740 --> 00:27:13,920
De même avec Musk,

586
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:15,400
Je veux dire,

587
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,000
après General Motors et Ford,

588
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,060
tout le monde abandonne les véhicules électriques

589
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:21,740
pour juste

590
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:22,760
dire,

591
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:24,960
Je sais comment nous allons avoir un chemin

592
00:27:25,580 --> 00:27:30,660
pour changer toute la trajectoire du monde vers l’ère des véhicules électriques.

593
00:27:31,340 --> 00:27:32,840
Et puis quand il revient de Russie,

594
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:33,980
où il a essayé d'acheter

595
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,960
une petite fusée pour envoyer une serre expérimentale sur Mars,

596
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,500
et ils se moquaient de

597
00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:44,460
et j'ai craché dessus à un moment donné lors d'un déjeuner arrosé.

598
00:27:45,220 --> 00:27:46,720
C'est très fortuit

599
00:27:47,420 --> 00:27:49,980
parce que sur le chemin du retour dans l'avion,

600
00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:52,100
sur le vol Delta Airlines,

601
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,960
c'est comme faire les calculs de la quantité de matériaux,

602
00:27:56,140 --> 00:27:57,760
combien de métal, combien de carburant,

603
00:27:58,460 --> 00:28:00,100
combien cela coûterait-il réellement.

604
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:08,200
Et donc il visualise des choses que d’autres diraient simplement impossibles.

605
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,180
C'est ce que les amis de Steve Jobs appelaient le champ de distorsion de la réalité.

606
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:14,820
Et ça rendait les gens fous.

607
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:19,800
Cela les rendait fous, mais cela les poussait aussi à faire des choses qu'ils ne pensaient pas pouvoir faire.

608
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:21,680
Vous avez parlé de pensée visuelle.

609
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:27,120
Je me demande si vous avez vu des parallèles entre les différents styles et types de pensée

610
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:34,220
qui font fonctionner l'esprit de ces gens.

611
00:28:34,860 --> 00:28:38,940
Y a-t-il donc des parallèles entre Elon, Steve Jobs,

612
00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:40,940
Einstein, Da Vinci,

613
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,460
spécifiquement dans

614
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:43,860
comment pensent-ils ?

615
00:28:44,460 --> 00:28:46,480
Je pense qu'ils étaient tous des penseurs visuels,

616
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:49,320
peut-être venant de légers handicaps dans l'enfance,

617
00:28:50,180 --> 00:28:54,380
ce qui veut dire que Leonardo était gaucher et un peu dyslexique, je pense.

618
00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:58,340
Et certainement, Einstein avait une callia.

619
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:59,920
Il répétait les choses.

620
00:28:59,980 --> 00:29:02,020
Il a mis du temps à apprendre à parler.

621
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,980
Je pense donc que la visualisation aide beaucoup.

622
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:07,780
Et avec Musk,

623
00:29:09,140 --> 00:29:12,280
Je le vois tout le temps quand je parcours les lignes d'usine avec lui

624
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,960
ou dans le développement de produits,

625
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,300
où il regardera,

626
00:29:17,460 --> 00:29:22,680
disons, le bouclier thermique sous le moteur Raptor d'un booster Starship.

627
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:26,200
Et il dira : pourquoi faut-il qu'il en soit ainsi ?

628
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,400
Ne pourrions-nous pas le couper de cette façon ?

629
00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:28,130
Ou même

630
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,400
débarrassez-vous de cette partie.

631
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,000
Et il peut visualiser la science des matériaux.

632
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:33,300
Il y a

633
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:41,120
petites anecdotes dans mon livre, mais à un moment donné il est sur la ligne Tesla et ils essaient d'avoir 5 000 voitures

634
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,640
une semaine en 2018.

635
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:44,560
C'est une situation de vie ou de mort.

636
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,900
Et il regarde les machines qui sont

637
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,820
boulonner quelque chose au châssis.

638
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,780
Et Lars Moravey, un de ses grands lieutenants,

639
00:29:56,060 --> 00:29:58,020
arrive et ils doivent le convoquer.

640
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:58,360
Et il dit,

641
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,920
pourquoi y a-t-il six boulons ici ?

642
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,120
Et Lars et d'autres ont expliqué :

643
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,720
enfin, pour les crash tests ou autre chose,

644
00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:09,240
la pression serait de cette façon,

645
00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:09,740
donc tu dois le faire.

646
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:10,500
Et ils étaient blabla,

647
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:11,120
bla bla bla bla.

648
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:12,860
Et il a dit non.

649
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:14,460
Si vous le visualisez,

650
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,600
tu verras s'il y a un crash,

651
00:30:17,420 --> 00:30:20,500
la force irait dans un sens et dans un autre.

652
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,680
Et cela peut être fait avec quatre boulons.

653
00:30:23,940 --> 00:30:25,780
Maintenant, cela semble risqué.

654
00:30:25,940 --> 00:30:27,560
Et ils vont le tester et ils le conçoivent,

655
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:28,420
mais il s'avère que c'est vrai.

656
00:30:28,940 --> 00:30:30,180
Je sais que ça semble mineur,

657
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,540
mais je pourrais t'en donner 500,

658
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:34,620
où, un jour donné,

659
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,740
il visualise la physique

660
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,200
d'un problème d'ingénierie ou de fabrication.

661
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,020
Cela semble assez banal.

662
00:30:45,020 --> 00:30:45,900
Mais pour moi,

663
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,220
si tu dis ce qui le rend spécial,

664
00:30:48,580 --> 00:30:50,000
il y a une chose axée sur la mission.

665
00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:51,600
Je te donne beaucoup de raisons,

666
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:58,180
mais l'une des raisons est qu'il ne se soucie pas seulement du design du produit,

667
00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:02,760
mais visualiser la fabrication du produit,

668
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,820
la machine qui fabrique la machine.

669
00:31:05,220 --> 00:31:06,220
Et c'est ce que nous n'avons pas réussi à faire

670
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,660
faire en Amérique au cours des 40 dernières années.

671
00:31:08,820 --> 00:31:10,240
Nous sous-traitons énormément de fabrication.

672
00:31:10,820 --> 00:31:12,000
Je ne pense pas que tu puisses

673
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,220
être un bon innovateur

674
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,540
si vous ne savez pas comment réaliser ce que vous concevez.

675
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:23,840
Et c'est pourquoi Musk place le bureau de son designer juste à côté des chaînes de montage dans les usines afin de

676
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,020
qu'ils doivent visualiser ce qu'ils ont dessiné

677
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,660
à mesure qu'il devient l'objet physique.

678
00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:33,980
Donc tout comprendre, de la physique jusqu'au logiciel,

679
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:34,980
c'est comme de bout en bout.

680
00:31:35,380 --> 00:31:39,260
Eh bien, avoir un contrôle de bout en bout est important,

681
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,180
certainement avec Steve Jobs.

682
00:31:41,660 --> 00:31:42,940
Je regarde mon iPhone ici.

683
00:31:43,380 --> 00:31:43,960
C'est une grosse affaire.

684
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:50,100
Ce matériel ne fonctionne qu'avec les logiciels Apple et, pendant un certain temps, l'iTunes Store.

685
00:31:52,210 --> 00:31:58,440
Il a donc un bout à bout qui en fait un jardin zen à Kyoto, très soigneusement organisé,

686
00:31:58,980 --> 00:31:59,940
mais c'est une chose de beauté.

687
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:06,320
Pour Musk, lorsqu’il était chez Tesla pour la première fois et avant d’en devenir PDG,

688
00:32:06,460 --> 00:32:07,120
quand il était juste

689
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,280
le président exécutif et

690
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,440
en gros, c'est le financier qui le finance,

691
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:13,820
ils externalisaient tout.

692
00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:18,880
Ils fabriquaient les batteries au Japon et le bloc de batteries se trouvait dans un magasin de barbecue au Japon.

693
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:26,180
Thaïlande et envoyé à l'usine Lotus en Angleterre pour être installé dans un châssis Lotus Elise puis mentionné.

694
00:32:26,860 --> 00:32:28,700
C'était un cauchemar.

695
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,920
Vous n’aviez pas le contrôle de bout en bout du processus de fabrication.

696
00:32:33,460 --> 00:32:35,180
Alors il va à l’autre extrême.

697
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:41,040
Il obtient une usine à Fremont de Toyota et il veut tout faire en interne,

698
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:41,760
les logiciels

699
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,040
en interne,

700
00:32:43,420 --> 00:32:44,580
la peinture en interne,

701
00:32:45,620 --> 00:32:48,640
la batterie.

702
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:50,480
Il fabrique ses propres batteries.

703
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,740
Et je pense que ce contrôle de bout en bout fait partie de sa personnalité.

704
00:32:57,660 --> 00:32:58,380
Mais ça

705
00:32:58,980 --> 00:33:01,480
permettrait également à Tesla

706
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:03,040
être innovant.

707
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:05,000
Ouais, je dois voir

708
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,320
et comprendre en détail un

709
00:33:10,660 --> 00:33:13,180
exemple de cela, qui est le développement du

710
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:14,420
cerveau de la voiture

711
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,440
en pilote automatique, en passant par l'oeil mobile

712
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,520
à la construction en interne du système de pilote automatique pour

713
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,360
en gros, se débarrasser de tous les capteurs qui ne le sont pas

714
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,220
riche en données pour le rendre convivial pour l'IA,

715
00:33:31,940 --> 00:33:33,780
c'est en quelque sorte dire que nous pouvons tout faire avec une vision.

716
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:35,220
Et comme tu l'as dit,

717
00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:36,700
en retirant certains boulons.

718
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,380
Alors parfois ce sont de petites choses,

719
00:33:38,460 --> 00:33:41,500
mais parfois, il s'agit de choses vraiment importantes, comme se débarrasser du radar.

720
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,720
Eh bien, la vision de se débarrasser du radar est énorme

721
00:33:45,540 --> 00:33:47,040
et tout le monde est contre.

722
00:33:47,220 --> 00:33:48,900
Tout le monde. Et c'est encore un peu un combat.

723
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,620
Ils essaient toujours de créer une prochaine génération,

724
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:52,360
une forme de radar,

725
00:33:52,620 --> 00:33:54,320
mais ça revient

726
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:55,220
aux premiers principes.

727
00:33:55,820 --> 00:33:56,940
Nous parlons de visualisation.

728
00:33:57,500 --> 00:33:58,180
Eh bien, il commence

729
00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:00,720
avec les premiers principes

730
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,780
et les premiers principes de la physique impliquent des choses comme ce que les humains conduisent avec seulement

731
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:08,240
entrée visuelle.

732
00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:09,580
Ils n'ont pas de radar.

733
00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:10,560
Ils n'ont pas de LIDAR.

734
00:34:10,620 --> 00:34:11,580
Ils n'ont pas de sonar.

735
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:12,780
Et ainsi

736
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:19,520
il n'y avait aucune raison dans les lois de la physique qui fasse que seule la vision

737
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:22,520
ne réussira pas à créer une conduite autonome.

738
00:34:23,340 --> 00:34:26,940
Maintenant, cela devient pour lui un article de foi et il

739
00:34:26,940 --> 00:34:28,120
reçoit beaucoup de réticences.

740
00:34:31,020 --> 00:34:32,040
Et il est au fait,

741
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,540
n'a pas vraiment réussi à respecter ses délais de

742
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,300
devenir autonome.

743
00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:38,040
Il est bien trop optimiste,

744
00:34:39,180 --> 00:34:43,880
mais c'était ce premier principe de se débarrasser des choses inutiles.

745
00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:45,920
Maintenant, on pourrait penser que LIDAR,

746
00:34:45,980 --> 00:34:46,900
pourquoi ne pas l'utiliser ?

747
00:34:46,980 --> 00:34:48,060
Pourquoi ne pas utiliser un béguin ?

748
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,260
C'est comme si, ouais, nous ne pouvons faire les choses qu'avec la vision,

749
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:52,200
mais quand je regarde les étoiles la nuit,

750
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,700
J'utilise aussi un télescope.

751
00:34:54,420 --> 00:34:54,800
Bien,

752
00:34:55,140 --> 00:34:56,240
vous pouvez utiliser le LIDAR,

753
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,200
mais on ne peut pas fabriquer des millions de voitures de cette façon à grande échelle.

754
00:34:59,340 --> 00:35:00,260
À un certain point,

755
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,660
il faut non seulement en faire un bon produit,

756
00:35:02,820 --> 00:35:04,880
mais un produit qui va à l'échelle.

757
00:35:05,380 --> 00:35:05,920
Et tu ne peux pas faire

758
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,820
il est basé sur des cartes comme Google Maps,

759
00:35:07,940 --> 00:35:12,680
parce qu'il ne pourra jamais conduire de la Nouvelle-Orléans à

760
00:35:12,770 --> 00:35:16,220
Slidell où je veux aller quand il fait trop chaud à la Nouvelle-Orléans.

761
00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:19,300
Prenons par exemple la conduite autonome complète.

762
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:23,600
Il est obsédé par ce qu'il appelle le robot-taxi.

763
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:25,620
Nous allons construire la prochaine génération

764
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,360
voiture sans volant,

765
00:35:28,340 --> 00:35:28,980
sans pédales,

766
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:31,080
parce que ce sera un trajet entièrement autonome.

767
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:31,840
Vous venez de l'invoquer.

768
00:35:32,260 --> 00:35:34,040
Vous n'aurez pas besoin de le conduire.

769
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:35,580
Eh bien, encore et encore,

770
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:37,220
tous ces gens dont je t'ai parlé,

771
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,740
Lars Morave et Drew Baglino et d'autres,

772
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:45,060
ils disent, d'accord, très bien, ça a l'air vraiment bien, mais ce n'est pas encore arrivé.

773
00:35:45,540 --> 00:35:50,980
Nous devons construire une voiture mondiale grand public à 25 000 $, ce qui est tout simplement normal.

774
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:51,840
avec un volant.

775
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:57,760
Et oui, il s'est finalement retourné il y a quelques mois et a dit :

776
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:58,880
faisons-le.

777
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:02,320
Et puis il commence à se concentrer sur la façon dont la chaîne de montage va fonctionner ?

778
00:36:02,380 --> 00:36:07,340
Comment allons-nous le faire et en faire la même plate-forme pour les robots-taxi afin que vous puissiez avoir le même assemblage.

779
00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:08,440
De même,

780
00:36:08,940 --> 00:36:09,860
pour une conduite entièrement autonome,

781
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,880
ils le faisaient en codant des centaines de milliers de lignes de code

782
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:16,320
cela dirait des choses comme,

783
00:36:16,460 --> 00:36:17,420
si vous voyez un feu rouge,

784
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:17,960
arrêt.

785
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,180
S'il y a une lumière clignotante, s'il y a deux lignes jaunes, faites ceci.

786
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:22,500
S'il y a une piste cyclable,

787
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:22,980
fais ça.

788
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,520
S'il y a un passage pour piétons, faites-le.

789
00:36:25,020 --> 00:36:27,160
Eh bien, c'est vraiment difficile à faire.

790
00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:29,620
Naly le fait par voie artificielle

791
00:36:29,620 --> 00:36:32,020
intelligence et apprentissage automatique uniquement.

792
00:36:32,460 --> 00:36:36,400
Le FSD12 sera basé sur le milliard

793
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:37,480
cadres

794
00:36:38,140 --> 00:36:41,100
de Tesla chaque semaine des conducteurs de Tesla et disant :

795
00:36:41,460 --> 00:36:43,360
que s'est-il passé lorsqu'un humain se trouvait dans cette situation ?

796
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:44,420
Qu'a fait l'humain ?

797
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:46,000
Et choisissons seulement les meilleurs humains,

798
00:36:46,180 --> 00:36:47,500
les pilotes cinq étoiles,

799
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,500
les chauffeurs Uber, comme le dit Elon.

800
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:56,160
Et donc c'est lui qui change d'avis et revient aux premiers principes,

801
00:36:56,860 --> 00:36:57,620
mais en disant,

802
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,400
d'accord, je vais même changer de conduite entièrement autonome.

803
00:37:01,060 --> 00:37:02,400
Ce n’est donc pas basé sur des règles.

804
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,380
Cela devient basé sur l’IA.

805
00:37:04,860 --> 00:37:08,700
Tout comme ChatGPT n'essaie pas de répondre à votre question,

806
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:09,800
qui sont les cinq meilleurs

807
00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:13,040
des papes ou quelque chose comme ça en étudiant ?

808
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:19,960
ChatGPT y parvient en ayant ingéré des milliards de

809
00:37:20,580 --> 00:37:22,520
des morceaux d'écriture que les gens ont rédigés.

810
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:23,980
Ce sera l'IA,

811
00:37:24,180 --> 00:37:26,400
mais le monde réel est réalisé en ingérant de la vidéo.

812
00:37:26,860 --> 00:37:30,260
Parfois, on a l'impression que lui et les autres,

813
00:37:31,180 --> 00:37:32,860
ils construisent des choses avec succès dans ce monde,

814
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,900
explorent en toute confiance une pièce sombre

815
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,320
avec un très confiant,

816
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,080
vision ambitieuse de ce à quoi ressemble réellement cette pièce.

817
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,320
Ils marchent tout droit dans l'obscurité.

818
00:37:49,180 --> 00:37:51,840
Il n'y a pas de jouets douloureux ni de Legos au sol.

819
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,120
Je vais juste marcher.

820
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:54,900
Je sais exactement à quelle distance se trouve le mur.

821
00:37:55,580 --> 00:37:59,080
Et puis très rapidement disposé à s'adapter au fur et à mesure qu'ils se heurtent,

822
00:37:59,420 --> 00:38:00,180
ils marchent sur le

823
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,460
Lego et leur corps sont remplis de beaucoup de douleur.

824
00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:09,400
Ce que je veux dire par là, c'est qu'il y a ce genre d'évolution qui semble se produire là où vous

825
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,240
découvrez en cours de route de très bonnes idées qui vous permettent de pivoter.

826
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:15,260
Comme pour moi,

827
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,420
depuis quelques années,

828
00:38:20,460 --> 00:38:22,880
quand tu pouvais voir avec Andrei Karpathy,

829
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,000
l'évolution logicielle 2.0 du pilote automatique,

830
00:38:26,420 --> 00:38:29,740
il est devenu évident pour moi qu'il ne s'agissait pas de voiture.

831
00:38:30,540 --> 00:38:32,520
Il s'agit d'Optimus, le robot.

832
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,640
Si nous regardons en arrière dans cent ans,

833
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,820
on se souviendra de la voiture comme d'une voiture cool, d'un bon moyen de transport,

834
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,760
mais le pilote automatique ne le fera pas

835
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,460
être la chose qui contrôle la voiture.

836
00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:50,300
Ce sera ce qui permettra aux systèmes d'IA incarnés

837
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,540
pour comprendre le monde.

838
00:38:52,940 --> 00:38:53,560
Si largement,

839
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:57,420
ce genre d'approche et vous tombez en quelque sorte sur

840
00:38:57,500 --> 00:38:57,700
il.

841
00:38:57,980 --> 00:39:00,620
Tesla sera-t-il un constructeur automobile ?

842
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:02,680
S'agira-t-il d'une entreprise d'IA ?

843
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:04,580
S'agira-t-il d'une entreprise de robotique ?

844
00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:06,680
S'agira-t-il d'une entreprise de robotique domestique ?

845
00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:08,260
S’agira-t-il d’une entreprise énergétique ?

846
00:39:08,420 --> 00:39:09,440
Et puis tu es en quelque sorte

847
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:16,820
découvrez-le lentement à mesure que vous avancez avec confiance avec une vision.

848
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,880
C'est intéressant d'observer ce genre d'évolution à condition qu'elle soit soutenue par cette confiance.

849
00:39:22,010 --> 00:39:25,300
Pour cela, plusieurs éléments sont nécessaires.

850
00:39:25,620 --> 00:39:27,020
L’un est aventureux.

851
00:39:27,380 --> 00:39:32,800
On n'entre pas dans une pièce sombre sans lampe de poche et sans carte, sauf si vous prenez des risques, si vous êtes aventureux.

852
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:42,420
La seconde consiste à avoir des cycles cérébraux itératifs où vous pouvez traiter les informations et effectuer une boucle de rétroaction.

853
00:39:42,420 --> 00:39:43,080
et faites-le fonctionner.

854
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:49,880
Le troisième, et c’est ce que nous n’avons pas réussi à faire aux États-Unis et peut-être dans le monde entier,

855
00:39:50,940 --> 00:39:53,300
c'est quand tu prends des risques,

856
00:39:54,140 --> 00:39:56,260
vous devez réaliser que vous allez faire exploser les choses.

857
00:39:57,980 --> 00:39:59,380
Trois premières fusées,

858
00:40:00,620 --> 00:40:02,520
les fusées Falcon que fabrique la NASA,

859
00:40:03,260 --> 00:40:04,460
ils explosent.

860
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,400
Même Starship, trois minutes et demie,

861
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:08,160
mais ensuite ça explose du premier coup.

862
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,620
Je pense donc que Boeing, la NASA et d'autres sont devenus

863
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:18,880
vous ne voulez pas entrer dans votre pièce sombre sans savoir exactement où se trouve la sortie

864
00:40:19,020 --> 00:40:21,000
et le chemin éclairé jusqu'à la sortie.

865
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:25,820
Et les gens qui ont créé l'Amérique à chaque fois qu'ils sont venus ici,

866
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:30,600
si les Mayflower sont des réfugiés des nazis,

867
00:40:31,260 --> 00:40:33,280
ils ont pris beaucoup de risques pour arriver ici.

868
00:40:33,860 --> 00:40:36,140
Et maintenant je pense que nous avons

869
00:40:36,740 --> 00:40:40,220
plus d'arbitres que de preneurs de risques,

870
00:40:41,020 --> 00:40:45,600
plus d'avocats, de régulateurs et d'autres

871
00:40:45,620 --> 00:40:47,620
dire que tu ne peux pas faire ça, c'est trop risqué,

872
00:40:48,140 --> 00:40:49,600
que les gens prêts à innover.

873
00:40:50,060 --> 00:40:50,720
Et il vous faut les deux.

874
00:40:51,820 --> 00:40:55,060
Je pense que tu as aussi raison sur 50,

875
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,640
Dans 100 ans,

876
00:40:57,860 --> 00:41:01,000
ce pour quoi on se souviendra le plus de Musk en plus

877
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:02,100
voyage dans l'espace

878
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,300
est l’IA du monde réel.

879
00:41:05,780 --> 00:41:07,860
Pas seulement Optimus le robot,

880
00:41:08,020 --> 00:41:10,660
mais Optimus le robot et la voiture autonome,

881
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,440
ils sont à peu près les mêmes.

882
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:20,100
Ils utilisent des clusters GPU ou des puces dojo ou quoi que ce soit

883
00:41:20,420 --> 00:41:22,020
pour traiter des données du monde réel.

884
00:41:22,620 --> 00:41:24,840
Nous l'avons tous eu, et vous l'avez fait sur votre podcast,

885
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,800
assez enthousiasmé par le grand modèle de langage,

886
00:41:28,660 --> 00:41:32,300
IA de texte prédictif génératif.

887
00:41:32,980 --> 00:41:33,640
C'est très bien,

888
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,200
surtout si tu veux

889
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:36,640
discutez avec votre chatbot.

890
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,980
Mais le Saint Graal est l’intelligence artificielle générale.

891
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,480
Et le plus difficile, c’est l’IA du monde réel.

892
00:41:45,340 --> 00:41:52,680
Et c'est là que se situe Optimus, le robot ou la conduite entièrement autonome, je pense,

893
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:54,120
loin devant

894
00:41:54,660 --> 00:41:56,200
de quelqu'un d'autre.

895
00:41:57,580 --> 00:41:57,920
Bien,

896
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:00,340
J'aime la façon dont tu as dit bavarder.

897
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,320
Je dirais pour l'un des plus grands

898
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:11,560
écrivains de tous les temps, c'est drôle que vous parliez du langage et de la maîtrise des langues comme de simples bavardages.

899
00:42:12,420 --> 00:42:14,600
Les gens sont tombés amoureux de quelques mots.

900
00:42:14,780 --> 00:42:16,260
Les gens sont partis en guerre pour

901
00:42:16,260 --> 00:42:16,720
quelques mots.

902
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,380
Je pense que les mots ont beaucoup de pouvoir.

903
00:42:18,780 --> 00:42:21,040
C'est en fait une question intéressante où

904
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,380
la sagesse du monde,

905
00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:26,460
la sagesse de l'humanité est dans les mots ou est-elle dans les visuels,

906
00:42:26,740 --> 00:42:27,380
est-ce dans le physique ?

907
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,680
Je ne sais pas vraiment... C'est en mathématiques.

908
00:42:31,180 --> 00:42:33,060
Peut-être que tout se résume à des mathématiques et qu'en fin de compte,

909
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:35,780
ce genre de discussion sur le monde réel

910
00:42:35,780 --> 00:42:38,660
L’IA contre le langage, c’est peut-être la même chose.

911
00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:42,480
J'ai eu la chance de sortir pas mal

912
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,180
dans le métaverse avec M.

913
00:42:44,260 --> 00:42:49,900
Mark Zuckerberg récemment et le garçon est le réalisme là-dedans.

914
00:42:50,580 --> 00:42:54,640
Ce qui va se passer dans le futur est incroyable.

915
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,120
J'ai été scanné à Pittsburgh

916
00:42:59,900 --> 00:43:01,000
pendant 10 heures.

917
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:08,660
Je suis entré dans le métaverse et il y a une version virtuelle de moi et j'ai pu passer du temps avec cette version virtuelle.

918
00:43:09,260 --> 00:43:10,160
Est-ce que vous vous aimez ?

919
00:43:10,860 --> 00:43:12,960
Eh bien, je ne me suis jamais aimé,

920
00:43:14,020 --> 00:43:16,780
mais c'était plus facile d'aimer cet autre

921
00:43:17,460 --> 00:43:17,820
gars.

922
00:43:18,260 --> 00:43:19,020
C'était intéressant.

923
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:19,920
Est-ce qu'il vous aime?

924
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,900
Il ne semble pas s'en soucier beaucoup.

925
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:24,960
C'est le manque d'empathie.

926
00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:32,500
Cela m'a fait commencer à me remettre en question encore plus qu'avant,

927
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,760
quelle est l’importance de cette réalité physique ?

928
00:43:36,860 --> 00:43:42,200
Parce que j'ai pu me voir moi-même et voir les autres dans ce métaverse,

929
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:44,380
les détails du visage,

930
00:43:45,740 --> 00:43:49,220
toutes les choses que tu penses,

931
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,240
peut-être que si tu te regardes dans le miroir, il y a des imperfections,

932
00:43:52,260 --> 00:43:53,080
tout ce genre de choses.

933
00:43:53,980 --> 00:43:55,880
Quand je me regardais et regardais les autres,

934
00:43:56,020 --> 00:43:57,200
toutes ces choses sont belles.

935
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:57,760
Il

936
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:04,520
C'était réel et c'était intense et c'était effrayant parce que

937
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:05,400
tu es comme,

938
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:06,480
eh bien, es-tu autorisé à

939
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:07,700
tuer des gens dans le métaverse ?

940
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,440
Car qu’est-ce que tu as le droit de faire ?

941
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:13,480
Parce que vous pouvez reproduire

942
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:14,620
beaucoup de ces choses et

943
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:19,360
vous commencez à vous demander quelles sont les choses fondamentales qui font la vie

944
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,440
ça vaut la peine de vivre ici car nous savons que ce sont des humains.

945
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:24,680
Avez-vous parlé à Elon de son point de vue sur

946
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,220
qu'est-ce que vivre dans une simulation et comment savoir si c'est vrai ?

947
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,020
Oui, il y a une légèreté constante,

948
00:44:31,140 --> 00:44:33,320
mais aussi un sentiment sérieux

949
00:44:34,140 --> 00:44:35,720
que tout cela est un peu un jeu.

950
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:37,420
Une de mes théories

951
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,760
sur Elon, une théorie mineure,

952
00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:43,720
c'est qu'il a lu le Guide du voyageur galactique une fois de trop.

953
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:52,580
Comme vous le savez, il y a une scène là-dedans qui dit qu'il existe une théorie sur l'univers.

954
00:44:53,060 --> 00:44:56,960
que si jamais quelqu'un découvre les secrets des significations de l'univers,

955
00:44:57,340 --> 00:44:58,420
il sera remplacé

956
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,620
par un univers encore plus complexe.

957
00:45:00,820 --> 00:45:03,440
Ensuite, la ligne suivante écrite par Douglas Adams est :

958
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,360
il existe une autre théorie selon laquelle cela s'est déjà produit.

959
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,800
Je n'essaye pas de comprendre

960
00:45:08,820 --> 00:45:11,400
ça, mais je sais qu’Elon Musk essaie de le faire.

961
00:45:11,780 --> 00:45:13,440
Il y a de l'humour là-dedans.

962
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,440
Il y a un énorme humour dans Hitchhiker's Guide.

963
00:45:16,980 --> 00:45:21,780
Je pense vraiment que cela a aidé Musk à sortir des périodes les plus sombres de ses périodes

964
00:45:21,780 --> 00:45:24,800
le sentiment de plaisir de découvrir ce qu'est la vie.

965
00:45:25,140 --> 00:45:27,120
Je me demande s'il y a un côté plus petit que nous pourrions dire :

966
00:45:28,260 --> 00:45:32,440
juste après avoir très bien connu Elon, la bêtise,

967
00:45:33,460 --> 00:45:36,300
la volonté de s'engager dans l'absurdité de tout cela

968
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:37,780
et amusez-vous.

969
00:45:38,940 --> 00:45:39,480
Qu'est-ce que c'est?

970
00:45:40,180 --> 00:45:44,400
Est-ce juste une bizarrerie de personnalité ou est-ce un élément fondamental

971
00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:47,960
aspect d'un humain qui dirige plus de six entreprises ?

972
00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:50,900
Eh bien, c'est une soupape de décharge, comme dans la vidéo

973
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:53,080
jeux et polytopie et Elden Ring,

974
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:54,660
une soupape de décharge pour lui.

975
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,080
Il a un sens explosif

976
00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:00,360
d'humour comme vous le savez.

977
00:46:01,060 --> 00:46:04,680
Ce qui est bizarre, c'est quand il fait une transition brusque

978
00:46:05,220 --> 00:46:12,060
du mode démon sombre et vous êtes dans la salle de conférence et il est vraiment contrarié par quelque chose.

979
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,180
Non seulement il y a des vibrations sombres,

980
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,500
mais des mots sombres émanent et il dit :

981
00:46:17,820 --> 00:46:20,560
votre démission sera acceptée si vous décédez, etc.

982
00:46:21,740 --> 00:46:23,500
Puis quelque chose apparaît

983
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:25,800
et il sort son téléphone

984
00:46:26,340 --> 00:46:33,420
et sort un sketch de Bonnie Pythons comme The School of Silly Walks ou quel que soit John Cleese.

985
00:46:33,980 --> 00:46:36,440
Il recommence à rire et tout se brise.

986
00:46:39,020 --> 00:46:42,040
C'est presque comme s'il avait différents modes,

987
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,460
l'émulation du mode humain, le mode ingénierie,

988
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,100
le mode sombre et démon,

989
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,900
et il y a certainement le mode idiot et vertigineux.

990
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:59,000
Ouais, vous avez en fait ouvert le livre d'Elon avec des citations d'Elon et de Steve Jobs.

991
00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:00,880
La citation d'Elon est donc :

992
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:01,980
à tous ceux que j'ai offensés,

993
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:02,940
Je veux juste dire,

994
00:47:02,980 --> 00:47:03,920
c'est sur SNL,

995
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:05,340
Je veux juste dire,

996
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,420
J'ai réinventé les voitures électriques et j'envoie des gens sur Mars à bord d'une fusée.

997
00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:12,680
Tu pensais aussi que j'allais être un mec cool et normal ?

998
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:14,520
Et puis la citation de Steve Jobs,

999
00:47:14,540 --> 00:47:20,620
bien sûr, ce sont les gens assez fous pour penser qu’ils peuvent changer le monde qui le font.

1000
00:47:21,290 --> 00:47:25,840
Alors, selon vous, quel est le rôle des anciens

1001
00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:27,840
folie et génie ?

1002
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:29,120
Selon vous, quel est le

1003
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,280
rôle de fou dans tout ça ?

1004
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:30,760
Bien,

1005
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,620
tout d’abord, stipulons tous les deux que Musk est parfois fou.

1006
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:37,180
Je veux dire, et

1007
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,380
alors voyons,

1008
00:47:40,980 --> 00:47:44,540
et j'essaie de le faire à travers la narration, pas à travers des hyphilis

1009
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:45,680
et la prédication,

1010
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,860
où cette folie fonctionne.

1011
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:51,280
Donnez-moi une histoire,

1012
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:52,120
raconte-moi une anecdote,

1013
00:47:52,260 --> 00:47:53,100
dis-moi où il est fou.

1014
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,160
Et le presque dernier exemple,

1015
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,640
AI, mais lui qui tire sur Starship pour la première fois,

1016
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,260
entre un compte à rebours avorté et le shoot off,

1017
00:48:06,260 --> 00:48:08,680
il se rend à Miami pour une conférence sur la vente de publicités et

1018
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,460
rencontre Linda Iaccarino pour la première fois,

1019
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:11,400
fait d'elle la PDG.

1020
00:48:11,740 --> 00:48:13,340
Je veux dire, il y a une très grande impulsivité à

1021
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:13,640
lui.

1022
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:14,460
Puis il revient,

1023
00:48:14,940 --> 00:48:22,380
ils lancent Starship, et vous réalisez qu'il y a un lecteur et qu'il y a

1024
00:48:22,380 --> 00:48:24,000
des démons et il y a aussi de la folie.

1025
00:48:26,860 --> 00:48:29,940
Et vous avez parfois envie de les retirer.

1026
00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:31,700
Tu veux lui enlever

1027
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:33,800
téléphone pour qu'il ne tweete pas à 3 heures du matin.

1028
00:48:34,220 --> 00:48:35,540
Tu veux dire,

1029
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:36,720
arrête d'être si fou.

1030
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:38,960
Mais ensuite tu réalises

1031
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,300
il y a une merveilleuse réplique de Shakespeare dans Mesure pour mesure à la toute fin.

1032
00:48:43,820 --> 00:48:44,320
Il dit,

1033
00:48:44,620 --> 00:48:47,740
même les meilleurs sont façonnés à partir de défauts.

1034
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,580
Et donc tu prends les défauts de Musk,

1035
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,380
par exemple, qui comporte une folie qui peut être attachante,

1036
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,340
mais aussi une folie qui ressemble à une folie,

1037
00:49:00,210 --> 00:49:04,480
ainsi que ce mode lecteur et démon.

1038
00:49:05,860 --> 00:49:09,280
Je ne sais pas si tu peux retirer ce brin du tissu

1039
00:49:09,820 --> 00:49:11,160
et le tissu reste entier.

1040
00:49:13,060 --> 00:49:13,600
Je me demande,

1041
00:49:14,740 --> 00:49:20,000
parfois, cela m'attriste de savoir que nous vivons dans une société qui ne célèbre même pas le

1042
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:21,300
les aspects les plus sombres de la folie

1043
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,840
en reconnaissant que tout est livré dans un seul paquet.

1044
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,520
C'est l'homme dans l'arène contre le critique.

1045
00:49:28,060 --> 00:49:31,960
Et l’homme dans l’arène contre le régulateur pour rendre les choses plus prosaïques.

1046
00:49:35,090 --> 00:49:38,180
Eh bien, permettez-moi de poser des questions non seulement sur la folie, mais aussi sur la cruauté.

1047
00:49:38,780 --> 00:49:42,660
Vous avez donc écrit un reportage sur Steve Jobs.

1048
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,380
On vous a dit que la grande question à poser était :

1049
00:49:46,060 --> 00:49:47,920
fallait-il qu'il soit si méchant,

1050
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,900
si dur et cruel,

1051
00:49:50,420 --> 00:49:51,500
donc accro au drame ?

1052
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,960
Quelle est cette réponse pour Steve Jobs ?

1053
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,300
Fallait-il être si cruel ?

1054
00:49:56,660 --> 00:49:57,220
Pour les emplois,

1055
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:00,080
J'ai demandé à Was à la fin de mon reportage,

1056
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,060
parce que c'est ce qu'il a dit au début,

1057
00:50:02,820 --> 00:50:04,800
nous faisons le lancement de, je pense

1058
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:08,040
l'iPad 2, c'est peut-être le cas.

1059
00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:10,520
Steve est émacié parce que

1060
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:12,300
il a été malade.

1061
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:13,980
Et donc je dis à Was,

1062
00:50:14,020 --> 00:50:15,100
quelle est la réponse à ta question ?

1063
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,400
Et il a dit, eh bien, si j'avais dirigé Apple,

1064
00:50:18,180 --> 00:50:19,500
J'aurais été plus gentil avec tout le monde.

1065
00:50:19,660 --> 00:50:20,760
Tout le monde s'est retrouvé coincé.

1066
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:21,940
Nous étions comme une famille.

1067
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,220
Et puis je ne sais pas si tu sais,

1068
00:50:24,220 --> 00:50:25,100
il est comme un ours en peluche.

1069
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:26,560
Il s'est arrêté, il a souri et il a dit :

1070
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:28,080
mais si j'avais utilisé Apple,

1071
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,300
Je ne pense pas que nous aurions fait le Macintosh ou l'iPhone.

1072
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,780
Donc voilà,

1073
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:35,120
vous devez

1074
00:50:36,540 --> 00:50:37,640
parfois

1075
00:50:38,620 --> 00:50:39,260
être dur.

1076
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,300
Et Jobs a dit la même chose que Must m'a dit :

1077
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:44,380
c'est ce qu'il a dit,

1078
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,080
les gens comme vous adorent porter des gants de velours.

1079
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,240
Maintenant, je ne sais pas si j'ai souvent porté des gants de velours,

1080
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:52,400
mais tu aimes que les gens t'aiment,

1081
00:50:52,420 --> 00:50:53,920
tu aimes parler gentiment,

1082
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:54,300
vous enrobez les choses de sucre.

1083
00:50:54,480 --> 00:51:00,320
Il dit : je ne suis qu'un enfant de la classe ouvrière et je n'ai pas ce luxe.

1084
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:02,780
Si quelque chose craint, je dois le dire aux gens.

1085
00:51:03,180 --> 00:51:04,640
Ou j'ai une équipe de joueurs B.

1086
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:06,280
Eh bien, Musk est comme ça

1087
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:06,580
aussi.

1088
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,400
Et cela revient à ce que j'ai dit plus tôt,

1089
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:10,500
c'est-à-dire, ouais,

1090
00:51:11,020 --> 00:51:13,040
Je porterais probablement du velours

1091
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,400
des gants si je pouvais les trouver chez ma mercière.

1092
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,000
Et j’essaie d’édulcorer les choses.

1093
00:51:19,060 --> 00:51:21,400
Mais quand je dirigeais CNN,

1094
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:23,820
il fallait le remodeler.

1095
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:25,200
Il fallait le casser.

1096
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,680
Il fallait faire exploser certaines choses.

1097
00:51:28,180 --> 00:51:29,840
Et je ne l'ai pas fait.

1098
00:51:31,060 --> 00:51:33,500
C'est tellement mauvais pour moi, mais ça m'a fait réaliser,

1099
00:51:33,700 --> 00:51:35,940
ok, je vais juste écrire sur les gens qui peuvent le faire.

1100
00:51:36,180 --> 00:51:37,880
Eh bien, cette chose de dire,

1101
00:51:38,340 --> 00:51:39,500
Je pense que probablement les deux,

1102
00:51:39,620 --> 00:51:41,440
mais Elon dit certainement des choses

1103
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,380
comme si c'était la chose la plus stupide que j'ai jamais entendue.

1104
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,400
D’ailleurs, j’ai entendu Jeff Bezos dire cela.

1105
00:51:47,580 --> 00:51:48,900
J'ai entendu Bill Gates dire cela.

1106
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:50,800
J'ai entendu Steve Jobs le dire.

1107
00:51:50,940 --> 00:51:53,420
J'ai entendu Steve Jobs le dire à propos d'un smoothie.

1108
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,000
Ils en faisaient un fruit entier ou quelque chose du genre.

1109
00:51:55,660 --> 00:51:59,040
Ils utilisent très souvent le mot stupide.

1110
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:00,660
Et vous savez qui d'autre l'a utilisé ?

1111
00:52:00,860 --> 00:52:01,500
Errol Musk.

1112
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:02,560
Il a continué à cuisiner.

1113
00:52:02,780 --> 00:52:04,580
Elon se tient devant lui et dit :

1114
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:05,620
c'est la chose la plus stupide.

1115
00:52:05,740 --> 00:52:06,980
Tu es la personne la plus stupide.

1116
00:52:07,180 --> 00:52:08,440
Vous ne réussirez jamais à rien.

1117
00:52:11,460 --> 00:52:12,640
Je ne sais pas.

1118
00:52:13,900 --> 00:52:17,060
Comme l'a dit John McNeil, le président de Tesla :

1119
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:19,000
est-ce que tu dois être comme ça ?

1120
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:20,600
Probablement pas.

1121
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,340
Il y a beaucoup de succès

1122
00:52:22,380 --> 00:52:24,140
des gens beaucoup plus gentils,

1123
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:26,040
mais

1124
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:32,180
c'est parfois nécessaire

1125
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,400
pour être beaucoup plus brutalement honnête,

1126
00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:37,820
Je dirais,

1127
00:52:38,540 --> 00:52:44,060
que les gens aiment qui sont quand les trophées du patron de l'année.

1128
00:52:45,140 --> 00:52:46,880
Eh bien, comme vous l'avez dit, ce genre d'idée

1129
00:52:47,420 --> 00:52:48,840
a également envoyé un signal.

1130
00:52:49,300 --> 00:52:51,040
Cette idée de Steve Jobs de huit joueurs,

1131
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:52,720
cela a envoyé un signal à tout le monde.

1132
00:52:54,220 --> 00:52:56,820
C’était une sorte d’encouragement pour les gens qui étaient tous présents.

1133
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:57,740
Droite.

1134
00:52:57,740 --> 00:52:58,700
Et c'est arrivé à Twitter.

1135
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,460
Quand nous sommes allés au siège de Twitter la veille

1136
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,880
le rachat, il avait

1137
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:09,420
Andrew et James, ses deux jeunes cousins et d'autres personnes de

1138
00:53:09,420 --> 00:53:12,200
l'équipe de pilote automatique, parcourant des lignes de code.

1139
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,500
Et Musk lui-même était assis là avec un ordinateur portable allumé.

1140
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:15,520
le deuxième étage de l'immeuble,

1141
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,100
en regardant les lignes de code écrites par les ingénieurs de Twitter.

1142
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:25,240
Et ils ont décidé qu'ils allaient licencier 85 % d'entre eux parce qu'ils

1143
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:26,100
il fallait être à fond.

1144
00:53:26,260 --> 00:53:29,880
Et cette notion de sécurité psychologique et de congés mentaux et

1145
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:32,400
travaillant à distance, a-t-il déclaré,

1146
00:53:32,980 --> 00:53:33,060
soit.

1147
00:53:33,620 --> 00:53:33,940
Et puis

1148
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,500
c'est arrivé, en fait l'un des siens,

1149
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:39,400
je pense que c'en était un

1150
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:45,180
des cousins ou peut-être que Ross Nordine a eu l'idée de ne pas être si dur et

1151
00:53:45,180 --> 00:53:46,360
virez simplement tous ces gens.

1152
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,240
Demandons-leur : voulez-vous vraiment être à fond ?

1153
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:50,440
Parce que ça va être hardcore.

1154
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:51,640
Ça va être intense.

1155
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:53,140
Vous pouvez choisir,

1156
00:53:53,340 --> 00:53:55,900
mais d'ici minuit ce soir, nous voulons que vous cochiez la case.

1157
00:53:56,580 --> 00:53:59,000
Je suis hardcore, à fond, je serai là en personne,

1158
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,880
Je vais travailler, tu sais, ou ce n'est pas pour moi.

1159
00:54:02,180 --> 00:54:03,420
J'ai une famille,

1160
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:04,300
J'ai un équilibre entre le travail

1161
00:54:05,620 --> 00:54:08,460
et tu as différents types de personnes de cette façon et différentes

1162
00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:09,620
étapes de leur vie.

1163
00:54:09,780 --> 00:54:13,900
J'étais un peu plus hardcore et à fond quand j'avais la vingtaine et quand je

1164
00:54:13,900 --> 00:54:15,860
j'avais, vous savez, la cinquantaine.

1165
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:16,520
Ouais.

1166
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:17,420
Et tu écris à ce sujet

1167
00:54:18,020 --> 00:54:19,460
vraiment une bonne idée en fait,

1168
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:20,860
qu'il y a deux camps

1169
00:54:21,420 --> 00:54:23,100
et tu découvres,

1170
00:54:23,180 --> 00:54:25,100
Non, je me demande à quel point c'est vrai.

1171
00:54:25,100 --> 00:54:26,340
Cela sonne vrai.

1172
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:27,880
Vous pouvez simplement demander aux gens,

1173
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:28,980
Dans quel camp êtes-vous?

1174
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,980
Êtes-vous le genre de personne qui se valorise,

1175
00:54:32,100 --> 00:54:34,860
qui aiment rester éveillés jusqu'à 2 heures du matin

1176
00:54:35,180 --> 00:54:36,240
programmation ou autre ?

1177
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,160
Ou voyez-vous la valeur de quote unquote,

1178
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:40,740
tu sais, à propos de la vie,

1179
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:42,680
l'équilibre travail-vie personnelle, tout ce genre de choses.

1180
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:43,420
Et

1181
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:44,340
c'est intéressant.

1182
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:44,900
Je veux dire,

1183
00:54:46,260 --> 00:54:47,000
comme tu pourrais,

1184
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,780
les gens se divisent probablement selon les différentes étapes de la vie et

1185
00:54:50,780 --> 00:54:55,700
vous pouvez simplement leur demander et cela a du sens pour certaines entreprises à certaines étapes de leur

1186
00:54:55,740 --> 00:54:56,820
le développement doit être comme,

1187
00:54:56,820 --> 00:54:57,980
nous voulons seulement des gens hardcore.

1188
00:54:57,980 --> 00:54:58,300
Ou certaines équipes.

1189
00:54:58,500 --> 00:54:59,700
Il n’est même pas nécessaire qu’il s’agisse d’une entreprise entière.

1190
00:55:00,380 --> 00:55:00,980
Et tu as raison.

1191
00:55:01,580 --> 00:55:03,660
Cela rejoint ce que je disais à propos de la règle.

1192
00:55:04,020 --> 00:55:06,260
Le premier secret est en quelque sorte de savoir

1193
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:11,680
toi-même vient évidemment de Platon et tout vient de Platon et de Socrate,

1194
00:55:13,020 --> 00:55:15,220
mais, et

1195
00:55:16,020 --> 00:55:18,000
décider de cette étape de ma vie.

1196
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,260
Suis-je, est-ce que je veux être un hackathon toute la nuit

1197
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:23,860
et changer le monde ?

1198
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:24,600
Ou est-ce que je veux

1199
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,040
pour apporter sagesse et stabilité,

1200
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:28,380
mais aussi avoir un équilibre ?

1201
00:55:29,060 --> 00:55:30,500
Je pense que c'est bien d'avoir

1202
00:55:30,690 --> 00:55:33,260
différentes entreprises avec des styles différents.

1203
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,280
Le problème était que Twitter se trouvait presque à un extrême

1204
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:45,360
avec des studios de yoga et des jours de congé pour la santé mentale et en consacrant la sécurité psychologique comme l'un des

1205
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,940
des mantras selon lesquels les gens ne devraient jamais se sentir psychologiquement menacés.

1206
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,560
Et lui, je me souviens du rire amer qu'il

1207
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:53,240
déchaîné quand il n'arrêtait pas d'entendre ce mot.

1208
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:55,800
Il a dit non, j'aime les mots hardcore.

1209
00:55:56,260 --> 00:55:57,200
J'aime l'intensité.

1210
00:55:57,660 --> 00:56:03,060
J’aime le sentiment d’urgence intense comme principe de fonctionnement.

1211
00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:05,140
Eh bien, ouais, il y a des gens qui

1212
00:56:05,140 --> 00:56:05,760
façon aussi.

1213
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,820
Sachez donc qui vous êtes et quel type d’équipe vous souhaitez constituer.

1214
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,840
Contre la sécurité psychologique et trop d'oiseaux partout.

1215
00:56:13,340 --> 00:56:13,760
Oh ouais.

1216
00:56:14,020 --> 00:56:17,160
Bien souvent, Musk a fait des choses et je me suis dit : qu'est-ce que c'est ?

1217
00:56:18,140 --> 00:56:19,340
Et parmi eux changeait

1218
00:56:19,340 --> 00:56:21,140
le nom Twitter et se débarrasser des oiseaux.

1219
00:56:21,260 --> 00:56:21,840
J'ai dit, Hé mec,

1220
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:23,760
c'est beaucoup investi dans cette marque.

1221
00:56:24,580 --> 00:56:25,700
Mais quand je l'ai regardé,

1222
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,740
il a pensé, d'accord, ces doux petits oiseaux gazouillants tweetant au nom de Twitter,

1223
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,200
ce n'est pas du hardcore.

1224
00:56:34,380 --> 00:56:35,420
Ce n'est pas intense.

1225
00:56:35,980 --> 00:56:38,040
Et ainsi, pour le meilleur et pour le pire,

1226
00:56:38,660 --> 00:56:40,120
Je pense qu'il agit

1227
00:56:41,140 --> 00:56:47,080
dans le domaine du hardcore avec des gens qui publient des choses hardcore,

1228
00:56:47,580 --> 00:56:49,460
avec des gens ayant des opinions hardcore.

1229
00:56:50,380 --> 00:56:50,940
Ce n'est pas

1230
00:56:52,060 --> 00:56:54,140
un poli

1231
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:59,720
parc pour les carreaux bleus

1232
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,180
élite ointe.

1233
00:57:04,140 --> 00:57:05,600
Et j'ai pensé, d'accord, ça va être mauvais.

1234
00:57:05,620 --> 00:57:06,700
Tout va s’effondrer.

1235
00:57:06,780 --> 00:57:08,300
Eh bien, il y a eu des problèmes,

1236
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:14,340
mais son intensité hardcore signifie également que de nouvelles choses se produisent là-bas.

1237
00:57:14,460 --> 00:57:21,920
C'est donc tout à fait Elon Musk de ne pas aimer cette douceur des oiseaux gazouillant, tweetant et disant :

1238
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:23,660
Je veux quelque chose de plus hardcore.

1239
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:30,140
Comme vous l'avez écrit en faisant référence à l'ancien PDG de Twitter,

1240
00:57:30,620 --> 00:57:34,660
Elon a déclaré que Twitter avait besoin d'un dragon cracheur de feu.

1241
00:57:35,620 --> 00:57:38,520
Je pense que c'est une bonne occasion de peut-être

1242
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:43,400
parcourez certains des moments mémorables de la saga Twitter sur lesquels vous avez beaucoup écrit

1243
00:57:43,740 --> 00:57:44,340
dans ton livre,

1244
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:50,680
depuis les premiers jours de réflexion sur l'acquisition jusqu'à la manière dont elle s'est déroulée jusqu'à la

1245
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,100
les détails, comme vous l'avez mentionné, des équipes d'ingénierie.

1246
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,830
Eh bien, début 2022,

1247
00:57:57,300 --> 00:57:58,620
il montait haut,

1248
00:57:59,180 --> 00:57:59,800
mais comme on dit,

1249
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:00,720
c'est un accro au théâtre.

1250
00:58:00,900 --> 00:58:02,080
Il n'aime pas fantôme.

1251
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,540
Et Tesla a vendu un million de véhicules.

1252
00:58:05,740 --> 00:58:07,700
Je pense que 33 boosters,

1253
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,220
Les Falcon 9 ont été abattus et

1254
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:13,980
atterri en toute sécurité au cours des derniers mois.

1255
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:20,940
Et il était la personne la plus riche du monde et la personne de l’année.

1256
00:58:21,700 --> 00:58:22,280
Et encore,

1257
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,240
avait-il dit, j'ai toujours envie de remettre tous mes jetons sur la table.

1258
00:58:27,300 --> 00:58:28,560
Je veux continuer à prendre des risques.

1259
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:30,520
Je ne veux pas savourer les choses.

1260
00:58:31,060 --> 00:58:32,360
Il avait vendu toutes ses maisons.

1261
00:58:33,180 --> 00:58:36,320
Il commence donc à acheter secrètement des actions de Twitter.

1262
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,780
Janvier, février et mars deviennent publics à un moment donné.

1263
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:42,520
Je ne sais pas si je dois le déclarer.

1264
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:45,800
Et nous étions ici à Austin

1265
00:58:46,620 --> 00:58:48,600
chez Gigafactory sur la mezzanine.

1266
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:50,960
Et il essayait de comprendre,

1267
00:58:51,140 --> 00:58:52,200
eh bien, où dois-je aller à partir d'ici ?

1268
00:58:53,140 --> 00:58:55,300
Et à cette époque, ce début avril,

1269
00:58:55,940 --> 00:58:59,880
ils allaient lui offrir un siège au conseil d'administration et il allait conclure un accord de statu quo

1270
00:58:59,980 --> 00:59:01,680
et arrêtez-vous à 10% ou quelque chose comme ça.

1271
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:04,440
Maintenant, rappelez-vous, nous étions debout.

1272
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:05,500
C'était Luke Nozick,

1273
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:06,580
que tu connais bien,

1274
00:59:07,020 --> 00:59:07,920
Ken Halry,

1275
00:59:08,300 --> 00:59:10,600
certains de ses amis sur cette mezzanine ici.

1276
00:59:11,340 --> 00:59:12,620
Et tout l'après-midi et puis

1277
00:59:12,620 --> 00:59:14,260
tard dans la soirée au dîner

1278
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,000
c'est comme, devrions-nous faire ça ?

1279
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:18,600
Et je n'ai rien dit.

1280
00:59:18,660 --> 00:59:19,740
Je ne suis qu'un observateur.

1281
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:21,180
Mais tout le monde dit :

1282
00:59:21,460 --> 00:59:23,860
excusez-moi, pourquoi voulez-vous posséder Twitter ?

1283
00:59:24,940 --> 00:59:25,900
Et Griffin, son fils,

1284
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:27,340
rejoint au dîner.

1285
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,480
Et May, pour une raison quelconque, était en ville.

1286
00:59:30,380 --> 00:59:32,960
Et comme tout le monde le dit, non, nous n'utilisons pas Twitter.

1287
00:59:32,980 --> 00:59:34,000
Pourquoi ferais-tu ça?

1288
00:59:34,660 --> 00:59:36,060
Et May a dit : eh bien, j'utilise Twitter.

1289
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:37,680
Et c'est presque comme, d'accord,

1290
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,320
les données démographiques sont des personnes de mon âge ou de l'âge de May.

1291
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:43,580
Et c'était ainsi qu'il semblait

1292
00:59:43,580 --> 00:59:45,460
comme s'il n'allait pas poursuivre.

1293
00:59:45,700 --> 00:59:47,160
Ils lui ont offert un siège au conseil d'administration.

1294
00:59:48,860 --> 00:59:51,780
Et puis il est parti vers

1295
00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:56,240
Hawaï jusqu'à la maison de Larry Ellison,

1296
00:59:56,660 --> 00:59:57,780
qu'il utilise parfois.

1297
00:59:58,280 --> 00:59:59,260
Il rencontrait un ami,

1298
00:59:59,420 --> 01:00:01,060
Angela Bassett, une actrice.

1299
01:00:01,940 --> 01:00:05,180
Et au lieu de profiter de trois jours de vacances,

1300
01:00:06,060 --> 01:00:07,640
il vient de devenir suralimenté

1301
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,780
et j'ai commencé à envoyer des SMS,

1302
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,620
y compris celui du dragon cracheur de feu.

1303
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:13,960
Je pense

1304
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:19,140
il a utilisé cette phrase à plusieurs reprises pour dire que Parag n'était pas la personne qui allait prendre Twitter

1305
01:00:19,660 --> 01:00:20,440
à un nouveau niveau.

1306
01:00:21,180 --> 01:00:23,320
Et puis au moment où il arrive à Vancouver,

1307
01:00:23,540 --> 01:00:24,740
où Grimes le rencontre,

1308
01:00:25,260 --> 01:00:27,420
ils restent éveillés toute la nuit à jouer à Elden Ring.

1309
01:00:27,820 --> 01:00:29,020
Il faisait une conférence TED.

1310
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,060
Et puis à 17h30,

1311
01:00:32,060 --> 01:00:33,820
il finit de jouer à Elden Ring et

1312
01:00:33,820 --> 01:00:35,820
envoie que j'ai fait une offre.

1313
01:00:37,060 --> 01:00:38,440
Même quand il revient,

1314
01:00:39,020 --> 01:00:40,320
les gens essaient d'intervenir

1315
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,460
et dis, excuse-moi, pourquoi fais-tu ça ?

1316
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,040
Et donc ce fut une période difficile entre la fin

1317
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,600
Avril et octobre lorsque la transaction a été conclue.

1318
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:51,200
Et les gens me demandent tout le temps,

1319
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:53,000
eh bien, voulait-il se retirer du marché ?

1320
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:53,520
J'ai dit,

1321
01:00:53,900 --> 01:00:56,200
de quel Elon parles-tu à quelle heure de la journée ?

1322
01:00:56,620 --> 01:00:58,140
Parce qu'il y aura des moments le matin

1323
01:00:58,720 --> 01:00:59,640
quand il disait, oh,

1324
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:01,420
le tribunal du Delaware va

1325
01:01:01,420 --> 01:01:02,180
force-moi à le faire.

1326
01:01:02,220 --> 01:01:02,900
C'est horrible.

1327
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:04,260
Parlez à ses avocats.

1328
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:05,320
Vous pouvez gagner cette affaire.

1329
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:06,380
Sortez-moi de là.

1330
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,820
Il a rencontré ici à Austin trois ou quatre banquiers d'affaires,

1331
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:15,780
Blair Efron à Centerview, Bob Steele à Pirella Weinberg.

1332
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:17,300
Et ils lui ont proposé des options.

1333
01:01:17,380 --> 01:01:18,080
Voulez-vous sortir ?

1334
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:18,940
Voulez-vous rester à l'intérieur ?

1335
01:01:18,940 --> 01:01:20,040
Voulez-vous réduire le prix?

1336
01:01:21,300 --> 01:01:22,380
Et je pense qu'il l'était

1337
01:01:22,750 --> 01:01:23,200
mercuriel.

1338
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:26,380
Il y avait des moments où il m'envoyait un texto ou me disait :

1339
01:01:26,860 --> 01:01:27,900
Ça va être très bien.

1340
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:29,460
Ce sera l'accélérateur

1341
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,580
faire x.com comme nous le pensions il y a 20 ans.

1342
01:01:35,620 --> 01:01:37,180
Et donc ce n'est que lorsqu'ils

1343
01:01:37,180 --> 01:01:39,040
dis-lui enfin début octobre,

1344
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,040
juste au moment où Optimus le robot est dévoilé

1345
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,520
en Californie en fait,

1346
01:01:45,820 --> 01:01:46,360
que l'avocat dit,

1347
01:01:46,420 --> 01:01:49,120
vous n'allez probablement pas gagner cette affaire, mais

1348
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:51,080
mieux vaut conclure l'affaire.

1349
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,060
Et à ce moment-là, non seulement il a fait la paix avec ça,

1350
01:01:55,060 --> 01:01:57,000
il en est plutôt content à certains moments.

1351
01:01:57,780 --> 01:01:58,560
Finalement,

1352
01:01:58,940 --> 01:02:01,220
l'affaire va se conclure

1353
01:02:01,980 --> 01:02:04,400
je pense qu'un vendredi

1354
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:04,940
matin.

1355
01:02:04,940 --> 01:02:05,960
Je l'ai dans le livre.

1356
01:02:06,580 --> 01:02:10,100
Et nous y sommes jeudi et il se promène en regardant

1357
01:02:10,100 --> 01:02:11,740
le séjour s'est réveillé des t-shirts et

1358
01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:15,900
le jargon de la sécurité psychologique qu'ils utilisent tous.

1359
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:18,060
Et lui et ses avocats

1360
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:21,900
et les banquiers ont élaboré un plan pour procéder à une clôture éclair.

1361
01:02:23,180 --> 01:02:25,020
Et la raison en était

1362
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:27,420
s'ils concluent l'affaire

1363
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,740
après la fermeture des marchés pour la journée,

1364
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:35,300
et il pourrait envoyer une lettre à Parag et à deux autres,

1365
01:02:35,940 --> 01:02:37,680
les renvoyer pour un motif valable,

1366
01:02:38,300 --> 01:02:40,240
et ce sera quelque chose que les tribunaux devront déterminer,

1367
01:02:41,660 --> 01:02:43,760
il pourrait alors économiser environ 200 millions.

1368
01:02:44,100 --> 01:02:45,340
Et c'était à la fois l'argent,

1369
01:02:45,500 --> 01:02:46,420
mais c'est une affaire pour lui,

1370
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:48,280
Je ne dirai pas de principe, mais de,

1371
01:02:49,100 --> 01:02:49,260
Hé,

1372
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:51,260
ils m'ont induit en erreur sur les chiffres.

1373
01:02:51,300 --> 01:02:52,820
J'ai été obligé de le faire.

1374
01:02:53,300 --> 01:03:00,380
Je vais donc essayer cette manœuvre de jujitsu et pouvoir en tirer un peu d'argent.

1375
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:01,860
Puis quand il prend le relais,

1376
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:03,620
c'est une sorte de scène sauvage.

1377
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,440
Lui essayant de décider dans trois domaines différents

1378
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,960
explique comment ramener le personnel à 15% de ce qu'il était.

1379
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:13,260
Lui décidant la veille de Noël,

1380
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:15,020
après avoir assisté à une réunion

1381
01:03:15,980 --> 01:03:20,080
où ils lui ont dit que nous ne pouvions pas nous débarrasser de cette ferme de serveurs de Sacramento, parce que

1382
01:03:20,780 --> 01:03:22,260
il faut une redondance.

1383
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:23,680
Il dit, non, ce n'est pas le cas.

1384
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:25,900
Et il s'envole pour Austin.

1385
01:03:27,260 --> 01:03:28,100
Et le jeune James dit :

1386
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:29,220
pourquoi ne le faisons-nous pas nous-mêmes ?

1387
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:30,420
Il fait demi-tour à l'avion,

1388
01:03:30,460 --> 01:03:33,120
ils atterrissent à Sacramento et il les retire lui-même.

1389
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:34,800
C'était donc une période maniaque.

1390
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,620
Il faudrait aussi dire qu'en dessous,

1391
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:38,500
il y avait

1392
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:43,180
un désir ou une considération récurrente de peut-être

1393
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:44,580
Recommencer à nouveau

1394
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:48,340
entreprise pour créer une entreprise de médias sociaux à partir de zéro.

1395
01:03:48,820 --> 01:03:50,080
Eh bien, Kimball voulait faire ça.

1396
01:03:50,140 --> 01:03:52,960
Et Kimball ici dans un merveilleux restaurant à Austin,

1397
01:03:53,140 --> 01:03:54,040
au déjeuner, c'est comme, hé,

1398
01:03:54,860 --> 01:03:55,780
pourquoi tu achètes Twitter ?

1399
01:03:56,220 --> 01:03:58,880
Commençons-en un à partir de zéro et faisons-le sur la blockchain.

1400
01:03:59,820 --> 01:04:01,380
Maintenant, ça lui a pris du temps,

1401
01:04:01,380 --> 01:04:03,160
et vous pouvez argumenter d'une manière ou d'une autre,

1402
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:08,040
arriver à la conclusion que la blockchain n'était pas assez rapide

1403
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:12,140
et un temps de réponse suffisant pour pouvoir gérer un milliard de tweets

1404
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:13,500
dans un jour ou deux.

1405
01:04:14,580 --> 01:04:18,360
Il se met en colère quand ils continuent d'essayer de le faire parler à Sam Bankman Fried,

1406
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:19,620
qui essaie de dire,

1407
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:21,760
J'investirai, mais nous devons le faire sur la blockchain.

1408
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:28,720
Kimball est toujours favorable à en créer un nouveau et à le faire sur la base de la blockchain.

1409
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:31,300
En rétrospective,

1410
01:04:32,660 --> 01:04:33,100
Je pense

1411
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,640
Il aurait été préférable de créer une nouvelle entreprise de médias.

1412
01:04:35,660 --> 01:04:36,900
Il n'aurait pas eu les bagages

1413
01:04:37,620 --> 01:04:38,140
ou

1414
01:04:38,660 --> 01:04:44,240
l'héritage qu'il brise maintenant en brisant la façon dont Twitter était.

1415
01:04:44,660 --> 01:04:47,140
Mais c'est difficile d'avoir

1416
01:04:47,140 --> 01:04:49,660
des millions et des millions, des centaines de millions de

1417
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,460
de vrais utilisateurs, pas seulement des trolls,

1418
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:55,520
et repartir de zéro comme

1419
01:04:55,640 --> 01:05:01,860
d'autres l'ont trouvé, comme Macedon et Blue Sky et des fils et aucun fil n'avait même de base.

1420
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:03,220
Cela aurait donc été difficile.

1421
01:05:04,140 --> 01:05:07,330
Ouais. Et pour faire cela comme il l'a fait, il faut

1422
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,020
une autre partie que tu écris avec les trois mousquetaires

1423
01:05:11,020 --> 01:05:12,020
et toute l'ingénierie,

1424
01:05:12,940 --> 01:05:15,600
le licenciement et l'arrivée des ingénieurs

1425
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:17,360
pour essayer de devenir en quelque sorte hardcore.

1426
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,040
Il y a donc beaucoup de questions intéressantes à poser,

1427
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:21,700
mais le haut niveau,

1428
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:26,980
pouvez-vous simplement commenter cette partie de la saga, qui est

1429
01:05:28,140 --> 01:05:29,240
faire appel aux ingénieurs

1430
01:05:29,460 --> 01:05:31,120
et vu, que pouvons-nous faire ici ?

1431
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:32,220
Droite.

1432
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:34,920
Il a fait venir les ingénieurs et a pensé

1433
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:38,380
que le nombre de personnes travaillant sur Tesla,

1434
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,260
pilote automatique entièrement autonome et tous les logiciels

1435
01:05:41,260 --> 01:05:46,240
il y avait environ un dixième de ce que faisait un logiciel pour Twitter.

1436
01:05:46,380 --> 01:05:47,940
Et il a dit, cela ne peut pas être le cas.

1437
01:05:48,660 --> 01:05:49,080
Et

1438
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,280
il a tiré à 85% en trois tours différents.

1439
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:53,140
Le premier était

1440
01:05:54,180 --> 01:05:56,100
je licencie juste des gens parce que

1441
01:05:56,100 --> 01:06:02,060
ils ont examiné le codage et ont demandé à une équipe de pilotes automatiques de Tesla d'évaluer

1442
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:06,140
les codes de tout ce qui a été écrit au cours de la dernière année.

1443
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,580
Puis il a viré les gens qui ne l'ont pas fait

1444
01:06:09,580 --> 01:06:11,760
semblent totalement à fond ou fidèles.

1445
01:06:12,260 --> 01:06:14,220
Et puis une autre série de licenciements.

1446
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:19,280
Ainsi, à chaque étape du processus,

1447
01:06:19,780 --> 01:06:21,320
presque tout le monde a dit, ça suffit.

1448
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:23,240
Cela va détruire des choses.

1449
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:27,080
D'Alex Spiro, son avocat à Jared Burchill,

1450
01:06:27,580 --> 01:06:28,480
il dit, whoa, whoa, whoa.

1451
01:06:29,300 --> 01:06:30,940
Et même Andrew et James,

1452
01:06:30,940 --> 01:06:35,440
les jeunes cousins chargés de dresser une liste et de déterminer qui est bon ou mauvais,

1453
01:06:35,580 --> 01:06:36,480
disons, nous en avons fait assez.

1454
01:06:36,500 --> 01:06:38,440
Nous allons avoir de vrais problèmes.

1455
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,340
Et ils avaient en partie raison.

1456
01:06:41,620 --> 01:06:45,460
Je veux dire, il y a eu une certaine dégradation du service,

1457
01:06:46,460 --> 01:06:46,580
mais

1458
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:50,300
pas autant que la moitié des services que j’utilise la moitié du temps.

1459
01:06:51,060 --> 01:06:51,260
Et

1460
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:53,940
Je me réveille chaque matin et

1461
01:06:54,900 --> 01:06:57,060
appuyez sur l'application et d'accord, toujours là.

1462
01:06:57,420 --> 01:06:57,780
Qu'en penses-tu?

1463
01:06:57,780 --> 01:06:58,540
Était-ce trop ?

1464
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:04,920
Je pense qu'il a un algorithme que nous avons mentionné plus tôt qui commence par remettre en question chaque exigence,

1465
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:07,160
mais c'est à lui de supprimer, supprimer,

1466
01:07:07,460 --> 01:07:07,600
supprimer,

1467
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:08,980
supprimez chaque partie.

1468
01:07:09,660 --> 01:07:13,080
Et puis un corollaire à cela est que si vous

1469
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:16,420
ne finissez pas par rajouter 20 % de ce que vous avez supprimé,

1470
01:07:17,020 --> 01:07:19,060
alors tu n'en as pas supprimé assez au premier tour

1471
01:07:19,340 --> 01:07:20,140
parce que tu étais trop timide.

1472
01:07:21,180 --> 01:07:22,460
Eh bien, alors tu m'as demandé,

1473
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:23,740
en a-t-il fait trop ?

1474
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:26,060
Il l'a probablement fait plus de 20 %,

1475
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:28,480
quelle est sa formule.

1476
01:07:28,980 --> 01:07:32,780
Et ils essaient probablement d’embaucher du personnel maintenant pour faire avancer les choses.

1477
01:07:34,300 --> 01:07:39,260
Mais cela envoie un signal fort aux personnes qui sont réembauchées ou à celles qui sont toujours en poste.

1478
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:40,400
L'idée d'avril.

1479
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:48,140
Ouais. Et ce que Steve Jobs et bien d'autres grands dirigeants ont ressenti, et certainement Bezos et certainement aux débuts de Microsoft, Bill Gates,

1480
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:51,280
c'était du hardcore, seulement des joueurs A.

1481
01:07:52,180 --> 01:07:54,660
Alors, dans quelle mesure diriez-vous du succès d’Elon ?

1482
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:59,340
Le succès d'Elon et de Steve Jobs réside dans le recrutement et la gestion de grandes équipes.

1483
01:07:59,940 --> 01:08:01,600
Quand j'ai demandé à Steve Jobs à un moment donné,

1484
01:08:01,700 --> 01:08:03,800
quel a été le meilleur produit que vous ayez jamais créé ?

1485
01:08:04,620 --> 01:08:05,480
Je pensais qu'il dirait

1486
01:08:06,460 --> 01:08:09,800
peut-être le Macintosh ou peut-être l'iPhone.

1487
01:08:10,620 --> 01:08:12,200
Il a répondu non, ces produits sont durs.

1488
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,320
La meilleure chose que j'ai jamais créée, c'est l'équipe

1489
01:08:16,020 --> 01:08:17,500
qui a fabriqué ces produits.

1490
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:19,920
Et c'est là que réside la difficulté, c'est de créer une équipe.

1491
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:22,420
Et il l'a fait, de Johnny Ive à Tim Cook

1492
01:08:23,740 --> 01:08:24,580
et Eddie Q et

1493
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:25,680
Phil Schiller.

1494
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:31,080
Elon a fait du bon travail en attirant des gens.

1495
01:08:31,300 --> 01:08:32,020
Gwen Shotwell,

1496
01:08:32,660 --> 01:08:33,220
évidemment,

1497
01:08:33,900 --> 01:08:36,040
Linda Iaccarino, elle peut

1498
01:08:36,440 --> 01:08:39,200
traverser les crises actuelles.

1499
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,780
Certainement des gens stellaires chez SpaceX comme Mark Jankos.

1500
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:52,440
Et puis chez Tesla comme Drew Bacalhino et Lars Marravey et Tom Zhu et bien d'autres.

1501
01:08:54,440 --> 01:08:57,700
Il ne fait pas vraiment partie d'une équipe

1502
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,100
collaborateur comme le dit Benjamin Franklin,

1503
01:09:00,660 --> 01:09:01,280
qui d'ailleurs,

1504
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:02,900
c'est la meilleure équipe jamais créée,

1505
01:09:03,440 --> 01:09:04,140
qui sont les fondateurs.

1506
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,720
Et il fallait avoir des gens vraiment intelligents comme Jefferson et Madison et vraiment

1507
01:09:09,070 --> 01:09:15,520
des gens passionnés comme John Adams et son cousin Samuel et vraiment un gars d'une grande rectitude comme Washington.

1508
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:21,040
Mais il fallait aussi un Ben Franklin capable de rassembler tout le monde et de constituer une équipe.

1509
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,780
sortir d'eux et les amener à faire des compromis les uns avec les autres.

1510
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,740
Musk attire de formidables talents.

1511
01:09:28,580 --> 01:09:29,020
Aimant,

1512
01:09:29,440 --> 01:09:29,860
intéressant.

1513
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:35,940
Mais il y a comme les priorités de recrutement basées sur l'excellence,

1514
01:09:36,300 --> 01:09:37,480
fiabilité et dynamisme.

1515
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:39,560
Ce sont des choses que vous avez décrites tout au long du livre.

1516
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:41,700
Je veux dire, il y a une jolie

1517
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:46,040
concret et rigoureux

1518
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:50,040
ensemble d'idées sur la base desquelles l'embauche se fait.

1519
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:50,920
Oh ouais.

1520
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:52,500
Et il a un très bon,

1521
01:09:53,460 --> 01:09:55,880
Spidey, sens intuitif

1522
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:57,980
je regarde juste les gens

1523
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:01,580
qui pourrait, je veux dire, non pas les regarder, mais les étudier

1524
01:10:02,100 --> 01:10:02,740
qui pourrait être bon.

1525
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:05,120
L'un de ses

1526
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,860
modes de fonctionnement

1527
01:10:09,700 --> 01:10:11,680
C'est ce qu'il appelle une réunion de niveau supérieur.

1528
01:10:12,340 --> 01:10:15,300
Et prenons une chose très spécifique comme le moteur Raptor,

1529
01:10:15,380 --> 01:10:17,800
qui alimente le Starship.

1530
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:19,500
Et ça n'allait pas bien.

1531
01:10:19,540 --> 01:10:21,080
Cela ressemblait à un buisson de spaghettis et

1532
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:22,500
ça allait être difficile à fabriquer.

1533
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:24,360
Et il s'est débarrassé des gens

1534
01:10:24,980 --> 01:10:26,300
qui dirigeaient cette équipe.

1535
01:10:27,340 --> 01:10:33,080
Et je me souviens qu'il a passé quelques mois à faire ce qu'il appelle sauter le niveau,

1536
01:10:33,300 --> 01:10:38,460
ce qui signifie qu'au lieu de rencontrer ses subordonnés directs de l'équipe Raptor,

1537
01:10:38,860 --> 01:10:42,180
il rencontrerait les gens un niveau en dessous d'eux.

1538
01:10:43,180 --> 01:10:45,920
Et donc il sautait un niveau et les rencontrait.

1539
01:10:46,620 --> 01:10:49,740
Et il a dit, c'est vrai, et je leur demande simplement ce qu'ils font.

1540
01:10:49,820 --> 01:10:51,280
Et je les ai posés des questions.

1541
01:10:51,940 --> 01:10:54,900
Et il a dit, et c'est ainsi que je détermine qui va émerger.

1542
01:10:55,500 --> 01:10:56,900
Il a dit que c'était particulièrement difficile.

1543
01:10:57,060 --> 01:10:59,520
J'étais assis à ces réunions parce que les gens portaient des masques.

1544
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:01,220
C’était au plus fort de la COVID.

1545
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:05,620
Et il a dit que cela rendait la tâche un peu plus difficile pour lui parce qu'il devait

1546
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:06,980
obtenir l'entrée.

1547
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:11,300
Mais quand j'étais jeune, j'ai regardé les Dreadlocks

1548
01:11:12,100 --> 01:11:14,680
nommé Jacob McKenzie, il est dans le livre,

1549
01:11:15,380 --> 01:11:17,660
est assis là et il est un peu comme toi.

1550
01:11:18,380 --> 01:11:21,240
La mentalité d’ingénierie parle d’un ton un peu monotone.

1551
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:26,060
Musk poserait une question et il donnerait une réponse et la réponse serait très

1552
01:11:26,060 --> 01:11:28,300
simple et il n'a pas été secoué.

1553
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:29,500
Il était comme ça.

1554
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:31,460
Et Musk a dit un jour

1555
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:33,400
je l'ai appelé à 3 heures du matin

1556
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:35,200
Bon, je ne dirai pas 3 heures du matin, mais après minuit

1557
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:36,860
dit, tu es toujours là ?

1558
01:11:37,260 --> 01:11:38,640
Et Jake a dit, ouais, je suis toujours au travail.

1559
01:11:39,060 --> 01:11:42,680
Et il a dit : OK, je vais vous confier la responsabilité du team building Raptor.

1560
01:11:43,700 --> 01:11:45,300
Et c'était comme

1561
01:11:45,900 --> 01:11:46,940
une grosse surprise.

1562
01:11:47,500 --> 01:11:50,520
Mais Jacob McKenzie a maintenant une version de Raptor

1563
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,470
et quand ils le construisent au moins un par semaine et ils sont plutôt géniaux.

1564
01:11:54,260 --> 01:11:57,680
Et c'est là que réside son talent,

1565
01:11:58,380 --> 01:12:03,940
Le talent de Musk pour trouver la bonne personne et la promouvoir.

1566
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:05,560
C'est là que ça se trouve.

1567
01:12:05,740 --> 01:12:07,240
Et en faire la promotion d'une manière où

1568
01:12:08,060 --> 01:12:09,700
c'est comme si voici le ballon,

1569
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:10,720
ici attraper.

1570
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:11,420
Yeah Yeah.

1571
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:13,100
Et vous courez avec.

1572
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:18,340
J'ai interagi avec pas mal de gens, même du Model X,

1573
01:12:19,460 --> 01:12:20,320
tout au long de,

1574
01:12:20,780 --> 01:12:21,340
où les gens,

1575
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:22,540
vous savez, sur le papier, cela ne semble pas être le cas.

1576
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:26,120
capables de gérer la chose et ils la gèrent avec beaucoup de succès.

1577
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:27,140
Et il le fait mal.

1578
01:12:27,340 --> 01:12:30,340
Parfois, il a eu un horrible bilan avec le toit solaire

1579
01:12:31,020 --> 01:12:31,670
division.

1580
01:12:32,480 --> 01:12:34,260
Un gars merveilleux nommé Brian Dow.

1581
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:35,680
Je l'aimais vraiment.

1582
01:12:36,300 --> 01:12:39,840
Et quand ils ont fait la montée en puissance d'une usine de batteries au Nevada,

1583
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:43,880
Musk s'est débarrassé de deux ou trois personnes et il y a Brian Dow.

1584
01:12:44,260 --> 01:12:45,580
Je peux faire, je peux faire, je peux faire.

1585
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:47,540
Il reste éveillé toute la nuit, il est promu et le dirige.

1586
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:52,640
Et finalement Musk fait appel à deux ou trois personnes pour diriger la division des toits solaires.

1587
01:12:53,380 --> 01:12:54,740
Appelle enfin Brian Dow.

1588
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,060
J'étais assis dans la maison de Musk à Boca Chica, ce petit

1589
01:12:58,760 --> 01:12:59,600
il a deux chambres.

1590
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:04,160
Et il propose à Brian Dow de gérer le toit solaire.

1591
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:08,240
Et vous savez, Brian là-bas, d'accord, je peux le faire, je peux le faire.

1592
01:13:09,060 --> 01:13:14,180
Et à deux ou trois reprises, Musk a insisté pour qu'ils installent une centrale solaire.

1593
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:16,760
toit d'une de ces maisons à Boca Chica.

1594
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:19,760
C'est ce petit village à l'extrémité sud du Texas.

1595
01:13:21,020 --> 01:13:21,880
Et tard dans la nuit,

1596
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:25,140
Je veux dire, je devrais grimper jusqu'au sommet du toit avec ces

1597
01:13:25,380 --> 01:13:27,400
des échelles et montez sur ce toit pointu

1598
01:13:27,940 --> 01:13:29,640
comme Musk le dit là,

1599
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:31,900
pourquoi avons-nous besoin de quatre vis pour

1600
01:13:31,900 --> 01:13:33,660
mettre cette seule jambe ?

1601
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:37,220
Et Brian transpirait et faisait tout.

1602
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:41,480
Mais après quelques mois, ça n'allait pas bien et boum,

1603
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:44,060
Musk vient de le virer.

1604
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:46,180
Alors j'essaie toujours d'apprendre,

1605
01:13:46,820 --> 01:13:50,460
Qu’est-ce qui fait que ceux qui restent prospèrent ?

1606
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:52,400
Quelle est la leçon là-bas ?

1607
01:13:52,460 --> 01:13:52,900
Qu'en penses-tu?

1608
01:13:53,340 --> 01:13:57,220
Eh bien, je pense que c'est la connaissance de soi, à la manière d'un Andy Krebs ou d'autres.

1609
01:13:58,160 --> 01:13:58,600
Ils disent,

1610
01:13:59,980 --> 01:14:00,600
Je suis hardcore.

1611
01:14:00,780 --> 01:14:04,560
Je veux vraiment envoyer une fusée sur Mars et c'est plus important que toute autre chose.

1612
01:14:06,020 --> 01:14:07,380
L'une des personnes,

1613
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:09,240
Je pense que c'est Tim Zeman,

1614
01:14:09,380 --> 01:14:10,780
J'espère que quand il entendra ça,

1615
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:12,440
Je lui trouve la bonne personne,

1616
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:14,440
qui a pris du temps.

1617
01:14:14,440 --> 01:14:17,940
Cela fonctionnait pour le pilote automatique Tesla et c'était tellement intense.

1618
01:14:17,940 --> 01:14:20,620
Il a pris un congé et est ensuite allé travailler dans une autre entreprise.

1619
01:14:21,060 --> 01:14:23,380
Il a dit, j'étais épuisé chez Tesla,

1620
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:25,940
mais ensuite je me suis ennuyé à l'endroit suivant.

1621
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:26,680
Alors j'ai appelé,

1622
01:14:27,260 --> 01:14:28,820
Je pense que c'était Ashok chez Tesla,

1623
01:14:28,860 --> 01:14:29,820
dit, je peux revenir ?

1624
01:14:29,860 --> 01:14:30,440
Il a dit, bien sûr.

1625
01:14:30,440 --> 01:14:32,580
Il a dit, j'ai appris sur moi-même.

1626
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:34,400
Je préfère être épuisé plutôt que de m'ennuyer.

1627
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:36,000
C'est une bonne ligne.

1628
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:39,060
Peux-tu juste t'attarder

1629
01:14:39,740 --> 01:14:41,260
l'un des trois qui

1630
01:14:41,260 --> 01:14:43,380
vous paraissent intéressants en termes d'excellence,

1631
01:14:43,700 --> 01:14:44,660
fiabilité et dynamisme ?

1632
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:45,840
Lequel pensez-vous

1633
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:48,380
est-ce le plus important et le plus difficile à atteindre ?

1634
01:14:48,540 --> 01:14:50,100
La fiabilité est intéressante.

1635
01:14:51,100 --> 01:14:52,880
Êtes-vous du genre à rouler ou à mourir ?

1636
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:53,860
Ouais.

1637
01:14:54,220 --> 01:14:56,940
Je pense que surtout lorsqu'il s'agissait de reprendre Twitter,

1638
01:14:57,060 --> 01:15:00,280
il pensait que la moitié des gens étaient déloyaux et il avait tort.

1639
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:02,680
Environ les deux tiers étaient déloyaux, et pas seulement la moitié.

1640
01:15:03,740 --> 01:15:06,040
C'était comment les éliminer ?

1641
01:15:06,220 --> 01:15:09,600
Il a fait quelque chose et a été fusillé.

1642
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:13,180
Je l'appelle, ou les Mousquetaires, je pense que c'est mon surnom pour eux,

1643
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:15,400
qui sont les jeunes cousins

1644
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:16,740
et deux ou trois autres personnes.

1645
01:15:17,480 --> 01:15:18,900
Il leur a fait regarder les messages Slack

1646
01:15:19,540 --> 01:15:20,560
ces gens avaient posté.

1647
01:15:20,820 --> 01:15:22,040
Tout le monde sur Twitter avait posté

1648
01:15:22,780 --> 01:15:24,980
et ils ont parcouru des centaines de messages Slack.

1649
01:15:25,440 --> 01:15:29,040
Si quelqu'un a posté sur Slack interne,

1650
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:33,000
cet imbécile, Elon Musk, va prendre le relais et je suis

1651
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:35,740
j'ai peur qu'il soit un maniaque ou quelque chose comme ça,

1652
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:37,560
ils seraient

1653
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:41,200
sur la liste parce qu'ils veulent une fidélité totale.

1654
01:15:42,060 --> 01:15:48,580
Ils n'ont pas regardé les messages privés de Slack et je suppose que les gens qui publient sur un Slack d'entreprise

1655
01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:52,920
Le conseil d’administration doit savoir que votre entreprise peut les examiner.

1656
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:56,360
Mais c'est plus que ce que j'aurais fait

1657
01:15:56,360 --> 01:15:57,540
ou la plupart des gens l'auraient fait.

1658
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:01,500
Il s’agissait de déterminer qui est profondément engagé et loyal.

1659
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:03,440
Je pense que c'était principalement le cas

1660
01:16:04,100 --> 01:16:04,600
sur Twitter.

1661
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:08,020
Il ne reste pas assis à SpaceX pour dire qui m'est fidèle.

1662
01:16:09,540 --> 01:16:12,040
A d'autres endroits,

1663
01:16:13,380 --> 01:16:17,700
c'est l'excellence, mais c'est plutôt une évidence.

1664
01:16:18,300 --> 01:16:20,240
Tout le monde est comme un Marc Jancosa,

1665
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:21,260
fouettez simplement intelligemment.

1666
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:23,800
C'est toi, hardcore et all-in,

1667
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:25,780
surtout si tu dois déménager vers ça

1668
01:16:26,740 --> 01:16:30,280
quartier d'une ville de la pointe sud du Texas appelée Boca Chica,

1669
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:32,660
vous devez être à tapis.

1670
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:33,240
Ouais.

1671
01:16:33,660 --> 01:16:35,900
C'est le lecteur, la dernière pièce.

1672
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:38,820
Vous, en termes de collaboration,

1673
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:40,500
une des grandes équipes de tous les temps,

1674
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:41,260
Ben Franklin.

1675
01:16:41,260 --> 01:16:41,940
J'aime ça.

1676
01:16:42,740 --> 01:16:43,560
Je pensais que c'était les Beatles,

1677
01:16:43,740 --> 01:16:44,880
mais Ben Franklin est plutôt bon.

1678
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:46,080
Oh non, non, non.

1679
01:16:46,120 --> 01:16:46,960
Je suis désolé.

1680
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:47,160
Ouais.

1681
01:16:47,220 --> 01:16:48,100
Désolé de vous offenser autant.

1682
01:16:48,140 --> 01:16:50,400
Lisez la Constitution et lisez Abbey Road.

1683
01:16:50,620 --> 01:16:51,260
Regardez Abbey Road.

1684
01:16:51,440 --> 01:16:53,060
Ils sont tous les deux bons, mais ils évoluent dans une ligue différente.

1685
01:16:53,180 --> 01:16:53,920
Ouais, une ligue différente.

1686
01:16:55,030 --> 01:16:58,680
L’une des nombreuses choses qui me viennent à l’esprit avec Ben Franklin est

1687
01:16:59,260 --> 01:17:00,560
gestion du temps incroyable.

1688
01:17:01,850 --> 01:17:04,920
Y a-t-il quelque chose que vous pourriez dire à propos

1689
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:08,920
Ben Franklin et à propos

1690
01:17:09,540 --> 01:17:10,080
Steve Jobs ?

1691
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:12,760
Je pense qu'il est intéressant avec Elon que lui, au moment où vous écrivez,

1692
01:17:13,820 --> 01:17:15,020
dirige six sociétés,

1693
01:17:16,420 --> 01:17:19,440
cela dépend de la façon dont vous êtes surpris parce que c'est votre propre truc, je ne sais pas.

1694
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:24,500
Que pouvez-vous dire de ces personnes en termes de gestion du temps ?

1695
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:29,900
Eh bien, Musk est dans une catégorie à part dans sa manière de procéder.

1696
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:31,080
Tout d'abord,

1697
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:35,500
Steve Jobs a dû diriger Pixar et Apple pendant un certain temps,

1698
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:36,680
mais Musk,

1699
01:17:37,900 --> 01:17:45,020
toutes les deux heures, il change d'état d'esprit, passant de la façon d'implanter la puce de liaison neuronale et de ce qui le fera.

1700
01:17:45,020 --> 01:17:49,620
à quoi ressemble le robot qui l'implante dans le cerveau et à quelle vitesse pouvons-nous le faire bouger,

1701
01:17:50,440 --> 01:17:51,020
et puis

1702
01:17:51,580 --> 01:17:53,140
le bouclier thermique du Raptor

1703
01:17:53,660 --> 01:17:54,120
ou

1704
01:17:54,860 --> 01:17:55,640
passer à

1705
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:57,320
imitation humaine,

1706
01:17:57,760 --> 01:17:58,920
apprentissage automatique, conduite autonome complète.

1707
01:17:59,820 --> 01:18:02,640
La nuit où le forum Twitter

1708
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:04,900
a accepté l'accord,

1709
01:18:05,660 --> 01:18:07,440
c'est énorme dans le monde entier.

1710
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:08,500
Je suis sûr que tu t'en souviens,

1711
01:18:08,740 --> 01:18:10,780
comme Musk achète Twitter.

1712
01:18:11,380 --> 01:18:12,340
Ce n'était pas le cas lorsque l'affaire a été conclue.

1713
01:18:12,420 --> 01:18:13,040
C'était quand

1714
01:18:13,670 --> 01:18:15,520
le Twitter a accepté son offre.

1715
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:17,140
J'ai pensé, d'accord,

1716
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:19,000
mais ensuite il est parti

1717
01:18:19,660 --> 01:18:20,300
à Boca Chica,

1718
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:21,600
au sud du Texas,

1719
01:18:22,700 --> 01:18:26,200
et j'ai passé du temps à me fixer,

1720
01:18:26,620 --> 01:18:27,900
si je me souviens bien,

1721
01:18:28,460 --> 01:18:30,800
une soupape dans le moteur Raptor qui

1722
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:32,380
j'ai eu un problème de fuite de méthane,

1723
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:37,420
et quels étaient les moyens possibles de résoudre ce problème.

1724
01:18:38,300 --> 01:18:40,420
Tous les ingénieurs dans cette pièce,

1725
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:43,000
Je suppose, j'y pense,

1726
01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:44,500
ce type vient d'acheter Twitter,

1727
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:45,420
devrions-nous dire quelque chose,

1728
01:18:46,300 --> 01:18:50,860
puis il va avec Kimball dans un restaurant en bord de route

1729
01:18:51,780 --> 01:18:53,420
à Brownsville

1730
01:18:53,940 --> 01:18:58,140
et il s'assoit juste devant et écoute de la musique sans que personne ne remarque vraiment sa présence.

1731
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:04,220
Une des choses qui est l'une de ses forces et en quelque sorte une de ses faiblesses, d'une certaine manière.

1732
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:06,340
est dans un jour donné,

1733
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:08,100
enfer

1734
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:10,740
se concentrer en série,

1735
01:19:11,100 --> 01:19:13,580
séquentiellement sur beaucoup de choses différentes.

1736
01:19:14,140 --> 01:19:19,240
Il s'inquiétera du téléchargement de la vidéo

1737
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,400
sur x.com ou le système de paiement,

1738
01:19:22,740 --> 01:19:24,500
puis basculez immédiatement

1739
01:19:25,100 --> 01:19:26,620
à un problème avec

1740
01:19:26,620 --> 01:19:34,140
la FAA donnant un permis pour Starship ou sur la façon de traiter avec Starlink et la CIA.

1741
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:37,500
Quand il est concentré sur l'une de ces choses,

1742
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:41,200
vous ne pouvez pas le distraire.

1743
01:19:41,440 --> 01:19:43,460
Ce n'est pas comme s'il pensait aussi à

1744
01:19:44,020 --> 01:19:48,380
traiter avec Starlink, mais je dois aussi m'inquiéter de la décision de Tesla sur

1745
01:19:48,980 --> 01:19:50,780
la nouvelle voiture à 25 000 $.

1746
01:19:51,660 --> 01:19:54,000
Maintenant, il va, entre ces séances,

1747
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:56,380
traitement de l'information,

1748
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:57,760
puis défoulez-vous.

1749
01:19:58,600 --> 01:19:59,380
Pour le meilleur ou pour le pire,

1750
01:19:59,460 --> 01:20:00,500
il se défoule en

1751
01:20:01,620 --> 01:20:04,940
soit jouer un ami en polytopie, soit

1752
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:06,620
lancez quelques tweets,

1753
01:20:06,980 --> 01:20:09,220
ce qui n'est souvent pas sain,

1754
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:12,160
mais c'est une libération pour lui.

1755
01:20:13,830 --> 01:20:16,360
J'ai dit un jour qu'il était un excellent multitâche,

1756
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:17,700
et c'était une erreur.

1757
01:20:18,260 --> 01:20:19,080
Les gens m'ont corrigé.

1758
01:20:19,440 --> 01:20:20,720
C'est un travailleur en série,

1759
01:20:21,580 --> 01:20:25,280
ce qui signifie se concentrer intensément sur une tâche pendant une heure,

1760
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:29,240
a presque un, comment on appelle ça,

1761
01:20:29,360 --> 01:20:32,360
dans les restaurants où ils vous donnent un nettoyant pour le palais.

1762
01:20:32,700 --> 01:20:34,600
Il fait un nettoyant pour le palais avec

1763
01:20:34,990 --> 01:20:37,640
polytopie et se concentre ensuite sur la tâche suivante.

1764
01:20:38,220 --> 01:20:40,320
Existe-t-il une certaine sagesse à propos de la gestion du temps

1765
01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:41,860
que tu peux en tirer ?

1766
01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:44,340
Il y a certaines choses que ces gens font et vous dites :

1767
01:20:44,780 --> 01:20:46,160
ok, je peux être comme ça.

1768
01:20:46,220 --> 01:20:47,180
Je peux être plus curieux.

1769
01:20:47,220 --> 01:20:49,160
Je peux remettre en question toutes les règles et réglementations.

1770
01:20:50,620 --> 01:20:52,920
Je pense juste que personne

1771
01:20:53,740 --> 01:20:59,700
devrait essayer d'imiter le style de gestion du temps de Musk, car cela prend

1772
01:21:00,180 --> 01:21:04,860
un certain ensemble d'équipes qui savent comment gérer tout le reste autre que ce sur quoi il se concentre

1773
01:21:05,540 --> 01:21:07,280
et un certain

1774
01:21:07,820 --> 01:21:10,440
un esprit qui peut changer,

1775
01:21:10,940 --> 01:21:12,760
tout comme ses humeurs peuvent changer.

1776
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:14,980
Toi et moi traversons

1777
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,100
transitions et aussi si je pense à

1778
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:19,020
ce que je vais dire sur ce podcast,

1779
01:21:19,060 --> 01:21:23,340
Je pense aussi au mail que ma fille vient d'envoyer concernant une maison qu'elle recherche

1780
01:21:23,340 --> 01:21:26,020
à, et je suis multitâche.

1781
01:21:26,700 --> 01:21:27,760
Il ne fait pas vraiment ça.

1782
01:21:27,780 --> 01:21:31,280
Il effectue des tâches séquentiellement avec

1783
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:33,200
une concentration qui est hardcore.

1784
01:21:33,660 --> 01:21:34,040
Je ne sais pas.

1785
01:21:34,140 --> 01:21:35,640
Je pense qu’il y a de la sagesse à en tirer.

1786
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:38,220
Tout d'abord, il me fait,

1787
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:40,280
Ben Franklin me fait ressentir ça,

1788
01:21:41,020 --> 01:21:42,860
qu'il y a beaucoup d'heures dans la journée.

1789
01:21:43,180 --> 01:21:45,160
Il y a beaucoup de minutes dans la journée.

1790
01:21:46,340 --> 01:21:50,380
Il n'y a aucune excuse pour ne pas faire beaucoup de choses et cela nécessite juste une concentration extrême,

1791
01:21:51,380 --> 01:21:53,540
une concentration extrême et une urgence.

1792
01:21:54,260 --> 01:21:58,920
Je pense qu'il est extrêmement urgent

1793
01:22:00,340 --> 01:22:02,240
le conduit est important

1794
01:22:03,060 --> 01:22:04,620
et c'est parfois égrené.

1795
01:22:05,860 --> 01:22:10,280
Comme je l'ai dit, l'urgence d'aller sur Mars et un vendredi soir

1796
01:22:10,980 --> 01:22:15,400
sur la rampe de lancement de Boca Chica à 22h,

1797
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:17,420
il n'y a que quelques personnes qui travaillent parce que c'est un vendredi

1798
01:22:17,420 --> 01:22:17,720
nuit.

1799
01:22:17,740 --> 01:22:20,020
Ils ne sont pas censés être lancés avant huit mois.

1800
01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:22,440
Et il ordonne une poussée.

1801
01:22:23,020 --> 01:22:26,260
Il dit, je veux que 200 personnes ici d'ici demain travaillent sur cette plateforme.

1802
01:22:26,940 --> 01:22:29,040
Nous devons avoir un profond sentiment d'urgence

1803
01:22:29,040 --> 01:22:30,740
ou nous n'atteindrons jamais Mars.

1804
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:37,720
Ce sentiment d'urgence est aussi un dynamisme

1805
01:22:38,870 --> 01:22:42,340
c'est comme vraiment prendre la vie pleinement.

1806
01:22:42,580 --> 01:22:44,840
Je veux dire, pour moi, c'est la leçon, c'est comme,

1807
01:22:45,660 --> 01:22:49,260
même le banal peut être plein de cette juste richesse.

1808
01:22:49,540 --> 01:22:54,400
Et comme s’il fallait vraiment l’assimiler intensément.

1809
01:22:54,980 --> 01:22:56,180
Alors comme le changement

1810
01:22:57,400 --> 01:22:58,780
permet ce genre d'intensité

1811
01:22:58,780 --> 01:23:00,420
parce que la plupart d'entre nous ne peuvent pas supporter cette intensité

1812
01:23:00,420 --> 01:23:02,420
dans une tâche pendant une période prolongée.

1813
01:23:03,140 --> 01:23:04,360
C'est peut-être aussi une leçon.

1814
01:23:05,780 --> 01:23:06,020
Droite.

1815
01:23:06,380 --> 01:23:08,880
Et je suppose que ça revient aussi à savoir qui tu es,

1816
01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:10,820
ce qui veut dire qu'il y a des gens qui

1817
01:23:12,100 --> 01:23:16,300
peuvent se concentrer intensément et certaines personnes peuvent voir des tendances dans de nombreuses choses.

1818
01:23:16,580 --> 01:23:18,040
Regardez, Léonard de Vinci,

1819
01:23:19,180 --> 01:23:20,860
il n'était pas très concentré.

1820
01:23:21,420 --> 01:23:23,540
Il était facilement distrait.

1821
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:24,000
Remettre à plus tard.

1822
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:26,760
C'est pourquoi il a plus de peintures inachevées

1823
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:28,820
que de terminer les peintures de son canon.

1824
01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:32,300
Mais sa capacité à

1825
01:23:33,220 --> 01:23:35,320
voir des modèles dans la nature

1826
01:23:35,380 --> 01:23:39,340
et d'une certaine manière traiter, tergiverser,

1827
01:23:39,720 --> 01:23:40,640
être distrait,

1828
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:42,860
ça l'a aidé un peu,

1829
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:46,260
mais Musk n’est pas comme ça.

1830
01:23:46,580 --> 01:23:47,060
Et là

1831
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:50,340
tous les quelques mois comme une nouvelle poussée,

1832
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:51,820
tu ne sais pas où ce sera,

1833
01:23:51,940 --> 01:23:56,480
mais vous serez sur des toits solaires et tout d'un coup nous aurons une surtension et il doit y en avoir,

1834
01:23:56,480 --> 01:24:00,420
vous savez, une centaine de toits solaires construits ou cela doit être fait d'ici demain ou

1835
01:24:01,060 --> 01:24:05,200
fabriquez un dôme de vaisseau spatial à l'aube, déferlez et faites-le.

1836
01:24:06,230 --> 01:24:08,640
Et il y a des gens qui sont construits de cette façon.

1837
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:10,000
C'est inspirant,

1838
01:24:10,900 --> 01:24:12,750
mais apprécions aussi,

1839
01:24:13,440 --> 01:24:16,820
tu sais, qu'il y a des gens qui peuvent être vraiment bons,

1840
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:22,900
mais peut aussi savourer

1841
01:24:24,180 --> 01:24:24,800
le succès,

1842
01:24:25,140 --> 01:24:25,780
savoure l'instant,

1843
01:24:26,180 --> 01:24:27,900
savourez le calme parfois.

1844
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:32,260
Le gros défaut de Musk, c'est qu'il ne sait pas savourer

1845
01:24:33,300 --> 01:24:33,980
le moment

1846
01:24:34,500 --> 01:24:35,060
ou le succès.

1847
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:38,700
Et c’est le revers de la médaille de l’intensité hardcore.

1848
01:24:40,440 --> 01:24:41,760
Dans Innovators, un autre

1849
01:24:42,380 --> 01:24:43,500
ton livre que j'adore,

1850
01:24:43,620 --> 01:24:45,600
vous écrivez sur des individus et sur des groupes.

1851
01:24:46,540 --> 01:24:49,820
L'une des questions abordées par le livre est donc la suivante :

1852
01:24:49,900 --> 01:24:51,660
est-ce des individus ou est-ce

1853
01:24:51,660 --> 01:24:53,420
ce sont des groupes qui inversent le cours de l’histoire ?

1854
01:24:55,340 --> 01:25:02,300
Quand Henry Kissinger effectuait des missions de navette pour la paix au Moyen-Orient, c'est le premier livre que j'ai jamais écrit.

1855
01:25:03,380 --> 01:25:05,440
Il a dit, quand j'étais professeur à Harvard,

1856
01:25:06,580 --> 01:25:09,020
Je pensais que l'histoire était déterminée par de grands

1857
01:25:09,140 --> 01:25:11,360
forces et groupes de personnes.

1858
01:25:12,660 --> 01:25:13,980
Mais quand je le vois de près,

1859
01:25:14,180 --> 01:25:17,060
Je vois quelle différence un individu peut faire.

1860
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:21,740
Il parle de Sadate et Golda Meir parle probablement de lui aussi,

1861
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:23,920
ou du moins dans son esprit.

1862
01:25:25,340 --> 01:25:28,400
Et nous, biographes, avons ce sale secret que nous connaissons,

1863
01:25:28,500 --> 01:25:29,700
nous déformons l'histoire et

1864
01:25:29,700 --> 01:25:32,640
un peu en rendant le récit trop piloté par un individu.

1865
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:35,460
Mais parfois, c'est motivé par

1866
01:25:35,460 --> 01:25:35,940
un individu.

1867
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:37,380
Musk est un cas comme celui-là.

1868
01:25:37,660 --> 01:25:39,880
Et parfois, comme je l'ai fait avec les Innovateurs,

1869
01:25:41,020 --> 01:25:46,010
il y a des équipes et des gens qui s'appuient les uns sur les autres et Gordon Moore et Bob Noyce,

1870
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:48,500
puis obtenir Andy Grove et faire la micropuce,

1871
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:52,680
qui sort ensuite et Wozniak et Jobs le trouvent

1872
01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:57,400
dans un magasin d'électronique et ils décident de construire l'Apple.

1873
01:25:59,380 --> 01:26:01,160
Et donc parfois là

1874
01:26:02,020 --> 01:26:05,460
sont des flux de forces et de groupes de personnes.

1875
01:26:06,200 --> 01:26:09,560
Je suppose que je me trompe un peu en regardant

1876
01:26:09,990 --> 01:26:12,760
à quoi Steve Jobs et Elon Musk

1877
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:15,200
et Albert Einstein peut le faire.

1878
01:26:16,180 --> 01:26:18,040
Et j'essaie aussi de comprendre

1879
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:19,260
dehors s'ils n'avaient pas été là,

1880
01:26:19,420 --> 01:26:21,280
les forces de l'histoire et les groupes de personnes

1881
01:26:21,620 --> 01:26:22,880
l'avez-vous fait sans eux ?

1882
01:26:23,240 --> 01:26:27,220
C'est une bonne question historique pour quelqu'un qui aime l'histoire.

1883
01:26:28,100 --> 01:26:29,060
Et tu penses à

1884
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:30,640
relativité restreinte,

1885
01:26:31,060 --> 01:26:32,620
un des journaux de 1905.

1886
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:36,200
Même après l'avoir écrit,

1887
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:38,760
il faut quatre ans avant que les gens comprennent vraiment ce qu'il dit,

1888
01:26:38,820 --> 01:26:40,840
ce n'est pas seulement la façon dont tu

1889
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:42,140
observer le temps est relatif,

1890
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:44,100
le temps lui-même est relatif.

1891
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:46,160
Et sur la théorie générale,

1892
01:26:46,320 --> 01:26:47,720
ce qu'il fait une décennie plus tard,

1893
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:50,760
Je ne suis pas sûr que nous l'aurions déjà obtenu.

1894
01:26:51,300 --> 01:26:53,480
Et si nous nous emmenions dans

1895
01:26:53,480 --> 01:26:59,560
l'ère de l'iPhone où c'est si beau qu'on ne peut pas vivre sans mille chansons en poche,

1896
01:27:00,300 --> 01:27:01,100
e-mail et

1897
01:27:01,740 --> 01:27:04,260
Internet dans votre poche et un téléphone ?

1898
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:07,440
Il y a beaucoup de

1899
01:27:07,440 --> 01:27:11,280
Les personnes en état de mort cérébrale, de Panasonic à Motorola, n'ont pas compris.

1900
01:27:11,300 --> 01:27:12,540
Et cela faisait peut-être un moment.

1901
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:16,220
Je pense certainement que c'est vrai à l'ère des véhicules électriques.

1902
01:27:16,980 --> 01:27:17,640
Jim et Ford,

1903
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:19,320
tous les gens formidables là-bas,

1904
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:21,100
ils ont écrasé le verrou.

1905
01:27:21,200 --> 01:27:22,260
Et je veux dire ça littéralement,

1906
01:27:22,320 --> 01:27:23,840
ils ont fini par briser

1907
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:26,200
eux parce qu'ils ont décidé d'y mettre un terme.

1908
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:27,180
De même,

1909
01:27:27,780 --> 01:27:29,100
personne n'envoyait de roquettes.

1910
01:27:29,740 --> 01:27:31,940
Notre navette spatiale était sur le point d'être clouée au sol

1911
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:33,780
Il y a 12 ans.

1912
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:38,160
Et donc Musk fait les choses

1913
01:27:39,220 --> 01:27:40,760
et il y aura des gens qui diront,

1914
01:27:41,300 --> 01:27:42,240
s'ils lisent le livre,

1915
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:43,340
ils verront l'histoire complète.

1916
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:44,060
Mais ils le disent

1917
01:27:44,060 --> 01:27:45,460
ce n'est pas Musk qui a fait Tesla,

1918
01:27:45,580 --> 01:27:46,980
c'était Martin Abba Hart ou Mark Tarpenning.

1919
01:27:47,300 --> 01:27:47,620
Non non,

1920
01:27:48,220 --> 01:27:48,300
Non.

1921
01:27:48,340 --> 01:27:50,460
Il y avait des gens qui avaient aidé

1922
01:27:51,460 --> 01:27:55,040
créer les coquilles d'entreprises et d'autres choses

1923
01:27:55,580 --> 01:27:58,560
et ils méritaient tous d’être appelés co-fondateurs.

1924
01:27:59,300 --> 01:28:00,640
Mais le gars qui en fait

1925
01:28:01,200 --> 01:28:02,140
nous amène à un million

1926
01:28:02,160 --> 01:28:03,620
véhicules électriques par an

1927
01:28:04,480 --> 01:28:05,220
est Elon Musk.

1928
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:05,900
Et sans lui,

1929
01:28:07,240 --> 01:28:09,300
Je ne pense pas que nous...

1930
01:28:09,300 --> 01:28:09,560
Regarder,

1931
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:15,860
si quelqu'un dans cinq ans achète une voiture à essence,

1932
01:28:16,380 --> 01:28:18,830
nous penserons que c'est pittoresque, c'est

1933
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:19,500
impair.

1934
01:28:20,380 --> 01:28:21,660
Je veux dire, tout à coup, nous avons changé.

1935
01:28:21,820 --> 01:28:22,680
Nous n'allons pas le faire.

1936
01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:25,000
90 % d’entre eux sont Elon Musk.

1937
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:26,900
Nous sommes tous mortels.

1938
01:28:27,820 --> 01:28:32,500
Quand et comment pensez-vous qu'Elon prendra sa retraite du secteur incroyablement productif

1939
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:33,980
son horaire en ce moment ?

1940
01:28:35,160 --> 01:28:37,340
Je pense qu'il détesterait prendre sa retraite.

1941
01:28:37,640 --> 01:28:39,520
Je pense qu'il ne peut pas vivre

1942
01:28:40,820 --> 01:28:41,900
sans la pression,

1943
01:28:42,260 --> 01:28:42,920
le drame,

1944
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:45,920
le tout dans le sentiment.

1945
01:28:49,140 --> 01:28:53,800
Cela n’a jamais semblé lui avoir traversé l’esprit.

1946
01:28:54,260 --> 01:28:54,880
Il n'a jamais dit,

1947
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:58,940
peut-être que j'aime la maison de Larry Ellison sur la plage à Hawaï.

1948
01:28:59,140 --> 01:28:59,820
Peut-être que je devrais

1949
01:29:00,420 --> 01:29:01,240
employer du temps à qch.

1950
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:03,240
Au lieu de cela, il dit des choses comme :

1951
01:29:03,420 --> 01:29:06,380
J'ai appris très tôt que les vacances tuaient.

1952
01:29:07,620 --> 01:29:09,420
Il attrape le paludisme lorsqu'il part en vacances.

1953
01:29:09,700 --> 01:29:11,360
Je veux dire, il part en vacances à une heure

1954
01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:13,260
point et ils l'expulsent de PayPal.

1955
01:29:13,480 --> 01:29:14,800
Et puis il va en Afrique d'un moment,

1956
01:29:14,940 --> 01:29:15,720
il attrape le paludisme.

1957
01:29:15,860 --> 01:29:17,240
Il dit, j'ai appris, les vacances tuent.

1958
01:29:17,260 --> 01:29:17,780
Leçon apprise.

1959
01:29:18,380 --> 01:29:20,360
Eh bien, c'est intéressant parce que les projets sont

1960
01:29:21,020 --> 01:29:22,960
projets de plus de cent ans.

1961
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:23,900
Beaucoup d’entre eux.

1962
01:29:24,020 --> 01:29:25,600
Une des choses étranges

1963
01:29:27,260 --> 01:29:28,580
le regarde réfléchir

1964
01:29:29,540 --> 01:29:30,880
incroyablement long terme.

1965
01:29:31,740 --> 01:29:33,340
Une des réunions chaque semaine

1966
01:29:34,180 --> 01:29:36,980
au début quand je le regardais

1967
01:29:37,500 --> 01:29:39,120
était le colonisateur de Mars.

1968
01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:41,380
Et nous l'avons fait pendant deux heures

1969
01:29:41,380 --> 01:29:45,020
réunion sur quelle serait la structure de gouvernance sur Mars ?

1970
01:29:46,020 --> 01:29:47,200
Que porteraient les gens ?

1971
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:49,440
Comment fonctionneraient les robots ?

1972
01:29:51,500 --> 01:29:54,560
Et y aurait-il une démocratie ou devrait-il y avoir

1973
01:29:55,340 --> 01:29:58,300
une autre forme de gouvernance ?

1974
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:00,180
Je suis assis là et je dis :

1975
01:30:01,040 --> 01:30:01,520
que font-ils?

1976
01:30:01,620 --> 01:30:02,360
De quoi parlent-ils?

1977
01:30:02,980 --> 01:30:04,780
Ils essaient de construire des fusées et tout le reste.

1978
01:30:05,480 --> 01:30:08,140
Ils s’inquiètent de la structure de gouvernance de Mars.

1979
01:30:08,740 --> 01:30:09,520
Et également,

1980
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:13,840
chaque fois qu'il est dans un moment tendu,

1981
01:30:14,140 --> 01:30:14,840
comme s'il y avait une fusée qui

1982
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:15,660
sur le point d'être lancé,

1983
01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:18,780
il commencera à demander quelque chose aux gens à l'avenir,

1984
01:30:19,580 --> 01:30:20,720
comme le nouveau

1985
01:30:21,840 --> 01:30:23,480
moteur principal ou quelque chose comme ça.

1986
01:30:23,540 --> 01:30:24,360
Si nous voulons construire cela,

1987
01:30:24,680 --> 01:30:26,780
avons-nous suffisamment de matériel prêt à

1988
01:30:26,780 --> 01:30:28,980
commande ou je ne sais pas,

1989
01:30:28,980 --> 01:30:31,280
il posera juste des questions

1990
01:30:33,180 --> 01:30:35,460
comme quand il construit un taxi robot,

1991
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:39,440
la voiture mondiale, la voiture mondiale bon marché à 25 000 $.

1992
01:30:39,940 --> 01:30:41,280
Ce n'est pas une passion totale.

1993
01:30:41,480 --> 01:30:43,280
On l'a persuadé de faire cela.

1994
01:30:43,700 --> 01:30:44,960
Sa passion, ce sont les robots taxis,

1995
01:30:45,740 --> 01:30:48,480
mais sa passion est de savoir comment allons-nous faire cette usine

1996
01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:50,540
faire un million de voitures par an ?

1997
01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:55,840
Ainsi, même le taxi robot offre une vision à plus longue portée.

1998
01:30:55,980 --> 01:30:58,340
Je veux dire, il le vante depuis 2016,

1999
01:30:59,500 --> 01:31:00,820
mais nous ne le sommes pas.

2000
01:31:01,540 --> 01:31:02,740
Il n’y a pas de taxis robots.

2001
01:31:02,940 --> 01:31:03,120
Je veux dire,

2002
01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:06,460
Waymo fait peut-être une petite expérience, mais il n'y en a pas

2003
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:09,800
voitures fabriquées sans direction

2004
01:31:09,850 --> 01:31:12,140
des roues qui vont envahir les autoroutes.

2005
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:13,480
Ouais.

2006
01:31:13,480 --> 01:31:16,580
Donc, il regarde toujours vers l’avenir, c’est ce que je veux dire.

2007
01:31:17,260 --> 01:31:25,230
J'espère juste qu'il y a beaucoup de Da Vinci, de Steve Jobs et d'Einstein

2008
01:31:25,420 --> 01:31:28,760
et celui d'Elon Musk qui portent la flamme.

2009
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:30,340
C'est l'une des raisons pour lesquelles tu écris des livres

2010
01:31:30,340 --> 01:31:32,340
à propos de ces gens, c'est pour que

2011
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:36,320
si tu es une jeune femme dans une école où on ne te dit pas

2012
01:31:36,340 --> 01:31:40,040
faire de la science et vous avez lu le décrypteur de Jennifer Doudna,

2013
01:31:40,340 --> 01:31:40,960
tu dis, d'accord,

2014
01:31:41,280 --> 01:31:42,260
Je peux être ça.

2015
01:31:42,700 --> 01:31:44,180
Et quand tu dis,

2016
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:47,720
oh, peut-être que je serai un régulateur ou tu dis,

2017
01:31:47,720 --> 01:31:49,960
oh non, peut-être que je serai la personne qui pousse

2018
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:52,840
les limites, qui repousse les lignes,

2019
01:31:53,100 --> 01:31:55,860
qui pousse, comme le disait Steve Jobs, la race humaine.

2020
01:31:57,160 --> 01:31:58,280
Eh bien, laissez-moi vous poser des questions sur

2021
01:31:59,200 --> 01:31:59,940
Ton esprit,

2022
01:32:01,020 --> 01:32:01,660
ton génie,

2023
01:32:02,720 --> 01:32:03,660
votre processus.

2024
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:05,640
Je vous en donne deux sur trois.

2025
01:32:05,940 --> 01:32:06,240
D'accord.

2026
01:32:07,140 --> 01:32:08,900
Expliquez-moi votre processus d'écriture d'une biographie.

2027
01:32:09,540 --> 01:32:09,820
Je veux dire,

2028
01:32:10,320 --> 01:32:11,260
le plein.

2029
01:32:11,900 --> 01:32:13,240
Et pas seulement écrire une biographie,

2030
01:32:13,820 --> 01:32:16,960
mais comprenant profondément,

2031
01:32:17,940 --> 01:32:21,460
ce que vos livres ont fait pour le

2032
01:32:21,460 --> 01:32:24,980
l’histoire humaine et aime les idées plus grandes qui sous-tendent l’histoire humaine.

2033
01:32:25,060 --> 01:32:27,140
Vous avez donc écrit des biographies d'individus,

2034
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:29,740
qui ne sont guère des individus.

2035
01:32:30,300 --> 01:32:32,260
C'est un tableau très vaste et complexe.

2036
01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:34,460
Et les biographies de

2037
01:32:35,820 --> 01:32:39,400
des idées qui impliquent des individus.

2038
01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:43,200
Eh bien, la première étape pour moi consiste à essayer de comprendre comment fonctionne l'esprit.

2039
01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:50,720
Qu’est-ce qui a poussé Einstein à faire le pas pour qu’Elon Musk dise l’acier inoxydable

2040
01:32:50,720 --> 01:32:54,220
pendant qu'il regarde une fusée en fibre de carbone ?

2041
01:32:54,740 --> 01:32:54,920
Ou

2042
01:32:55,480 --> 01:32:57,020
comment faire le saut mental ?

2043
01:32:57,600 --> 01:32:57,880
Parce que

2044
01:32:58,360 --> 01:32:59,400
J'écris sur les gens intelligents,

2045
01:32:59,500 --> 01:33:01,000
mais les gens intelligents sont à la pelle.

2046
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:02,080
Ils ne s'élèvent généralement pas

2047
01:33:02,100 --> 01:33:02,500
trop.

2048
01:33:02,620 --> 01:33:03,520
Il faut être créatif,

2049
01:33:03,880 --> 01:33:04,740
imaginatif pour penser différemment,

2050
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:06,300
comme dirait Jobs.

2051
01:33:07,020 --> 01:33:08,480
Et alors, qu’est-ce qui rend les gens créatifs ?

2052
01:33:08,940 --> 01:33:10,940
Qu’est-ce qui les pousse à faire des pas en avant imaginatifs ?

2053
01:33:11,500 --> 01:33:13,140
C'est la question clé

2054
01:33:13,140 --> 01:33:14,240
tu dois demander.

2055
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:16,720
Vous posez également les questions que vous avez posées plus tôt,

2056
01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:18,400
c'est quoi les démons

2057
01:33:19,060 --> 01:33:22,160
ont des bruits dans leur tête et comment les exploitent-ils dans leurs lecteurs ?

2058
01:33:22,940 --> 01:33:23,760
Alors tu regardes du tout

2059
01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:26,940
ça et tu essaies d'observer très attentivement

2060
01:33:27,620 --> 01:33:28,400
la personne.

2061
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:33,900
L'une des choses les plus banales que je fais est

2062
01:33:34,860 --> 01:33:36,080
beaucoup d'écrivains

2063
01:33:36,860 --> 01:33:40,220
essaie de te donner beaucoup de leurs avis

2064
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,160
et prêcher ou quoi que ce soit.

2065
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:48,500
Comme je l'ai dit, ce mentor a dit qu'il y avait deux types de personnes : les prédicateurs et les conteurs.

2066
01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:50,620
Soyez un conteur.

2067
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:54,000
J'essaye

2068
01:33:54,620 --> 01:33:57,820
chaque fois que j'essaie de transmettre une pensée,

2069
01:33:58,860 --> 01:34:02,040
il y a six mots magiques que j'aurais presque dû avoir

2070
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:03,640
écrit sur une carte

2071
01:34:04,480 --> 01:34:06,060
épinglé au-dessus de mon bureau,

2072
01:34:06,440 --> 01:34:08,340
c'est-à-dire laissez-moi vous raconter une histoire.

2073
01:34:09,260 --> 01:34:10,460
Donc si quelqu'un dit

2074
01:34:11,220 --> 01:34:15,460
comment Elon Musk découvre-t-il les bons talents

2075
01:34:16,700 --> 01:34:17,280
comme tu l'as fait,

2076
01:34:18,140 --> 01:34:19,240
Je pense, eh bien, laisse-moi te dire

2077
01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:19,580
l'histoire.

2078
01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:21,100
Je vais vous raconter l'histoire de Jake McKenzie.

2079
01:34:22,540 --> 01:34:24,820
Ou alors, ce n'est pas quelque chose que j'ai inventé.

2080
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:27,420
C'est là que le bon Dieu le fait dans la Bible.

2081
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:29,180
Je veux dire, c'est la meilleure ouverture

2082
01:34:29,820 --> 01:34:32,440
première phrase, tu sais, au début, virgule,

2083
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:34,020
et puis ce sont des histoires.

2084
01:34:34,940 --> 01:34:38,240
Et deuxièmement, pour reprendre cette phrase principale du début,

2085
01:34:38,780 --> 01:34:40,060
rendez-le chronologique.

2086
01:34:41,180 --> 01:34:44,960
Tout le monde dans le 40ème

2087
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:45,660
année de leur vie

2088
01:34:46,380 --> 01:34:49,440
a grandi à partir de la 39e année et de la 38e année.

2089
01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:51,320
Et donc tu veux

2090
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:53,700
montrer comment les gens évoluent et grandissent.

2091
01:34:54,760 --> 01:34:57,060
J'ai eu le meilleur de tous les récits de non-fiction

2092
01:34:57,080 --> 01:34:59,400
attitudes, Alice Mayhew chez Simon Schuster,

2093
01:35:00,100 --> 01:35:03,200
qui, entre autres, a créé tous les pouvoirs du président

2094
01:35:03,200 --> 01:35:04,660
hommes avec Woodward et Bernstein.

2095
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:07,720
Mais elle avait une note qu'elle avait mise en marge de mes livres

2096
01:35:08,340 --> 01:35:09,380
c'était une tique,

2097
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:11,540
et cela signifiait tout à temps.

2098
01:35:12,400 --> 01:35:14,160
Gardez-le chronologique.

2099
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:15,620
Si c'est assez bon pour la Bible,

2100
01:35:15,660 --> 01:35:16,540
c'est assez bien pour toi.

2101
01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:17,240
Intéressant.

2102
01:35:17,280 --> 01:35:17,660
Tome,

2103
01:35:17,960 --> 01:35:19,020
comme si c'était une petite note,

2104
01:35:19,580 --> 01:35:21,760
mais pour vous, c'est extrêmement important.

2105
01:35:22,020 --> 01:35:24,480
Parce que c'est le cadre dans lequel on structure les choses,

2106
01:35:24,480 --> 01:35:26,280
mais aussi comment tu comprends les choses,

2107
01:35:26,440 --> 01:35:30,800
c'est-à-dire si vous gardez un récit chronologique,

2108
01:35:31,620 --> 01:35:34,400
alors tu montres comment une personne a grandi

2109
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:38,520
d'une expérience dont vous avez parlé à la suivante.

2110
01:35:39,340 --> 01:35:41,980
Et cette croissance morale,

2111
01:35:42,340 --> 01:35:42,620
créatif

2112
01:35:42,940 --> 01:35:44,260
croissance, croissance à risque,

2113
01:35:45,340 --> 01:35:45,840
sagesse,

2114
01:35:46,780 --> 01:35:49,660
c'est l'essence de la créativité.

2115
01:35:50,020 --> 01:35:51,340
Mais vous ne pouvez pas le faire.

2116
01:35:52,120 --> 01:35:53,000
Il y a

2117
01:35:53,540 --> 01:35:59,780
un terme, Bildungsroman, qui est un livre qui porte un récit et raconte

2118
01:35:59,820 --> 01:36:00,700
comment les gens apprennent quelque chose.

2119
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:03,240
Je crois beaucoup au récit.

2120
01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:04,860
Si vous êtes universitaire,

2121
01:36:06,740 --> 01:36:07,400
parfois

2122
01:36:07,780 --> 01:36:10,880
pas aujourd'hui, mais il y a 20 ou 30 ans,

2123
01:36:12,200 --> 01:36:13,860
il y avait deux choses que vous trouviez mauvaises.

2124
01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:14,340
L'un était

2125
01:36:15,460 --> 01:36:20,580
avoir une grande théorie de l'histoire dans laquelle vous avez décidé de faire une biographie.

2126
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:23,300
J'avais un excellent professeur quand j'étais à l'université.

2127
01:36:23,660 --> 01:36:24,780
Elle s'appelait Doris Kearns.

2128
01:36:25,820 --> 01:36:27,040
Elle épousa plus tard Dick Goodwin.

2129
01:36:28,020 --> 01:36:28,700
Et elle,

2130
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:31,780
quand elle se préparait pour un poste à l'université,

2131
01:36:32,780 --> 01:36:33,240
a écrit une biographie

2132
01:36:34,280 --> 01:36:36,220
de Lyndon Johnson et du rêve américain.

2133
01:36:36,520 --> 01:36:39,120
Et ils lui ont refusé son mandat parce que c'était

2134
01:36:39,120 --> 01:36:44,360
au-dessous de la dignité de l'académie d'écrire l'histoire à travers une seule personne.

2135
01:36:45,820 --> 01:36:46,720
C'est super.

2136
01:36:47,000 --> 01:36:51,460
Cela a ouvert le champ de la biographie à nous, non-universitaires,

2137
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:54,480
à commencer par David McCullough,

2138
01:36:55,460 --> 01:36:56,200
Bob Caro,

2139
01:36:56,980 --> 01:37:00,980
mais peut-être que John Meacham et moi-même faisons partie d'une nouvelle génération.

2140
01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:03,840
Et il y a certainement une génération qui viendra après nous.

2141
01:37:04,700 --> 01:37:07,500
Mais la deuxième chose, à part le dire à travers les gens, ce qui

2142
01:37:08,560 --> 01:37:16,120
l'académie a-t-elle tendance à dédaigner ce qu'elle appelle imposer un récit

2143
01:37:16,980 --> 01:37:18,440
et ce que vous en avez fait en narration.

2144
01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:23,800
Parce que cela signifiait que vous laissiez des choses de côté et en faisiez un récit.

2145
01:37:24,660 --> 01:37:24,960
Bien,

2146
01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:29,460
c'est ainsi que nous formons notre vision du monde.

2147
01:37:30,660 --> 01:37:34,740
Eh bien, laissez-moi vous poser cette question en termes de compréhension.

2148
01:37:36,940 --> 01:37:43,000
Dans quelle mesure il s’agit d’observations et dans quelle mesure d’entretiens ?

2149
01:37:44,760 --> 01:37:44,960
Ouais.

2150
01:37:45,100 --> 01:37:47,220
Euh, et cela dépend évidemment du sujet.

2151
01:37:47,520 --> 01:37:48,820
Je veux dire, avec un Ben Franklin,

2152
01:37:48,820 --> 01:37:50,520
tout est basé sur des archives et tout,

2153
01:37:51,180 --> 01:37:51,620
bien sûr, nous avons

2154
01:37:52,440 --> 01:37:53,780
40 volumes de lettres.

2155
01:37:54,060 --> 01:37:57,120
Il a écrit que c'était le bon vieux temps où chaque jour on écrivait 20 lettres.

2156
01:37:58,040 --> 01:38:02,980
Le livre incontournable est bien plus basé sur l'observation que presque n'importe lequel de mes livres,

2157
01:38:03,060 --> 01:38:08,660
parce qu'il s'est ouvert d'une manière qui m'a époustouflé.

2158
01:38:09,100 --> 01:38:09,220
Ouais.

2159
01:38:09,720 --> 01:38:11,580
Même quand il restait vide

2160
01:38:12,740 --> 01:38:16,340
polytopie ou bouillonnement contre d'autres personnes,

2161
01:38:16,440 --> 01:38:18,620
vous savez, il m'a fait rester assis là à regarder.

2162
01:38:20,060 --> 01:38:22,640
Je veux dire, j'ai passé beaucoup de temps avec Jennifer à ses côtés.

2163
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:26,360
Je suis allé dans son labo et j'ai modifié un gène humain et, tu sais,

2164
01:38:26,680 --> 01:38:27,980
avec une pipette et un tube à essai.

2165
01:38:28,520 --> 01:38:31,260
Mais je dirais que j'ai dépensé

2166
01:38:31,900 --> 01:38:33,060
30 heures avec elle.

2167
01:38:33,560 --> 01:38:38,520
Je ne peux pas compter, vous savez, cent heures ou plus rien que pour observer la mosquée.

2168
01:38:39,180 --> 01:38:39,980
Et je ne suis pas

2169
01:38:41,360 --> 01:38:44,580
sûr que n'importe quel biographe,

2170
01:38:45,020 --> 01:38:46,980
peut-être depuis que Boswell a engagé le Dr.

2171
01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:51,200
Johnson a toujours eu autant

2172
01:38:52,620 --> 01:38:53,260
près,

2173
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:57,720
ce qui signifie un accès à cinq pieds à tout moment.

2174
01:38:59,600 --> 01:39:00,920
Et à cause de ça,

2175
01:39:01,540 --> 01:39:03,100
Je reviens à ce que j'ai dit il y a un instant.

2176
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:05,580
J'essaie de m'éloigner de l'histoire.

2177
01:39:06,180 --> 01:39:06,900
Il ne s'agit pas de moi.

2178
01:39:07,020 --> 01:39:09,140
Il ne s'agit pas de, j'essaie juste de dire, d'accord,

2179
01:39:10,320 --> 01:39:11,180
voici ce qui s'est passé.

2180
01:39:11,500 --> 01:39:12,280
Voici cette histoire.

2181
01:39:12,300 --> 01:39:12,900
Voici ce qui s'est passé.

2182
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:17,460
Et puis la nuit où il est venu sur Twitter pour la première fois et vous a laissé vous faire votre propre jugement.

2183
01:39:18,480 --> 01:39:19,380
Et les entretiens ?

2184
01:39:20,460 --> 01:39:20,860
Vous avez eu

2185
01:39:21,880 --> 01:39:23,180
beaucoup de conversations.

2186
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:27,220
Vous remerciez les personnes avec lesquelles vous avez interviewé.

2187
01:39:28,660 --> 01:39:29,920
Eh bien, un, je dois demander

2188
01:39:31,000 --> 01:39:32,920
en tant qu'aspirant intervieweur moi-même,

2189
01:39:34,140 --> 01:39:34,990
comment ?

2190
01:39:36,340 --> 01:39:37,220
Les gens aiment parler.

2191
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:39,080
Les gens adorent, tu le sais.

2192
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:44,380
J'ai eu 140, peut-être 150 personnes, elles sont toutes répertoriées au dos.

2193
01:39:45,100 --> 01:39:46,320
Une des petites choses

2194
01:39:46,350 --> 01:39:47,880
que les gens ne remarqueront pas,

2195
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:48,900
mais je vais le dire maintenant,

2196
01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:50,960
c'est qu'ils sont tous consignés dans le dossier.

2197
01:39:51,340 --> 01:39:52,880
Les faire parler est facile.

2198
01:39:53,060 --> 01:39:54,480
Ils veulent tous parler de mosquée.

2199
01:39:55,060 --> 01:39:56,400
Mais ensuite, à un moment donné, dites :

2200
01:39:56,760 --> 01:39:58,880
Je ne mets pas de citations anonymes dans mon livre.

2201
01:39:59,920 --> 01:40:00,940
Je cite des choses.

2202
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:02,180
Je dis,

2203
01:40:02,700 --> 01:40:03,520
si tu es assez dur

2204
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:05,420
et tu as traversé ça,

2205
01:40:06,080 --> 01:40:08,700
et bien souvent, il faut deux ou trois rappels.

2206
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:11,120
Quelqu'un me dira, oh non, non, non, je ne veux pas.

2207
01:40:11,660 --> 01:40:16,180
Mais je pense qu'il est important de savoir d'où tout vient.

2208
01:40:16,720 --> 01:40:17,600
Et avec les mosquées,

2209
01:40:18,280 --> 01:40:19,000
j'avais ça

2210
01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:21,480
dès le début parce que j'étais

2211
01:40:21,480 --> 01:40:22,740
un journaliste du Time Magazine.

2212
01:40:22,900 --> 01:40:25,660
J'avais travaillé comme journaliste pour le Times-Picayune à la Nouvelle-Orléans.

2213
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:27,660
Premier jour de travail,

2214
01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:29,040
J'ai dû couvrir un meurtre.

2215
01:40:30,480 --> 01:40:33,320
J'ai téléphoné pour raconter l'histoire depuis un téléphone public et mon éditeur,

2216
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:35,140
le rédacteur en chef de la ville a dit :

2217
01:40:35,460 --> 01:40:36,880
eh bien, as-tu parlé à la famille ?

2218
01:40:36,940 --> 01:40:37,600
J'y suis allé, non, Billy.

2219
01:40:37,700 --> 01:40:38,740
Je veux dire, la famille,

2220
01:40:39,060 --> 01:40:40,160
la fille vient de recevoir,

2221
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:41,940
dit-il, va frapper à la porte.

2222
01:40:42,100 --> 01:40:43,100
J'ai frappé a la porte.

2223
01:40:43,900 --> 01:40:45,500
Une heure plus tard, ils parlaient toujours.

2224
01:40:45,560 --> 01:40:47,000
Ils sortaient son annuaire.

2225
01:40:48,160 --> 01:40:49,000
Première leçon que j'ai apprise,

2226
01:40:49,280 --> 01:40:52,340
les gens veulent parler si vous êtes prêt à simplement écouter.

2227
01:40:53,940 --> 01:40:55,700
Et que ce soit Henry Kissinger,

2228
01:40:55,820 --> 01:40:57,640
tu appuies simplement sur le bouton et tu dis Kissinger,

2229
01:40:57,680 --> 01:40:59,000
et les gens vous racontent des histoires.

2230
01:40:59,460 --> 01:41:00,860
Tout au long d'Elon Musk,

2231
01:41:02,120 --> 01:41:02,840
tout le monde parlait.

2232
01:41:03,060 --> 01:41:03,960
Tout le monde dans sa famille,

2233
01:41:04,200 --> 01:41:05,880
il a viré tout le monde, tout le monde.

2234
01:41:06,020 --> 01:41:06,320
Je veux dire,

2235
01:41:07,160 --> 01:41:08,860
Je pense qu'il est important d'écouter les gens.

2236
01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:11,340
Et l'autre chose que j'ai apprise en tant que journaliste,

2237
01:41:11,540 --> 01:41:13,560
à l'époque où je couvrais la politique dans le New Hampshire

2238
01:41:13,760 --> 01:41:14,980
et les premières campagnes,

2239
01:41:16,000 --> 01:41:16,900
J'ai appris de

2240
01:41:17,420 --> 01:41:20,480
deux ou trois grands reporters, un type nommé David Broder et Tim Russert,

2241
01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:22,060
le regretté gars de NBC.

2242
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:24,320
Ils font ce qu’on appelle du porte-à-porte.

2243
01:41:24,480 --> 01:41:25,560
Vous venez de vous promener dans un quartier,

2244
01:41:25,660 --> 01:41:26,580
frapper à une porte

2245
01:41:26,700 --> 01:41:28,340
et interrogez les gens sur les élections.

2246
01:41:29,100 --> 01:41:30,420
Mais ils ont dit : voici le secret.

2247
01:41:31,660 --> 01:41:33,260
Ne posez pas de questions suggestives.

2248
01:41:33,500 --> 01:41:34,620
Je n'ai aucune prémisse.

2249
01:41:35,060 --> 01:41:37,800
Dites simplement, hé, j'essaie de comprendre cette élection.

2250
01:41:37,980 --> 01:41:38,720
Que se passe-t-il?

2251
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:40,480
Qu'en penses-tu?

2252
01:41:41,020 --> 01:41:42,000
Et puis restez silencieux.

2253
01:41:42,660 --> 01:41:43,080
Avec Musk,

2254
01:41:43,460 --> 01:41:43,920
un troisième secret,

2255
01:41:44,640 --> 01:41:45,520
tu le sais bien.

2256
01:41:46,660 --> 01:41:48,420
Il se tait parfois.

2257
01:41:49,180 --> 01:41:49,660
Parfois

2258
01:41:50,320 --> 01:41:51,700
une minute, deux minutes, quatre minutes.

2259
01:41:52,300 --> 01:41:53,640
N'essayez pas de combler les silences.

2260
01:41:54,440 --> 01:41:55,360
Si vous êtes un auditeur,

2261
01:41:56,380 --> 01:41:57,480
tu dois apprendre,

2262
01:41:58,560 --> 01:41:58,940
d'accord,

2263
01:41:59,500 --> 01:42:01,040
il ne dit rien pendant quatre minutes.

2264
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:02,760
Je peux lui survivre.

2265
01:42:03,040 --> 01:42:03,500
C'est dur.

2266
01:42:03,920 --> 01:42:04,780
En tant qu'humains, c'est très difficile.

2267
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:07,060
Respecter le silence est vraiment très difficile.

2268
01:42:09,180 --> 01:42:10,080
En parlant de démons,

2269
01:42:11,020 --> 01:42:13,240
quand il y a le silence, tous les démons apparaissent dans ma tête.

2270
01:42:13,820 --> 01:42:17,320
La peur, je pense, c'est que si je ne dis rien,

2271
01:42:17,880 --> 01:42:18,540
c'est ennuyant.

2272
01:42:18,620 --> 01:42:19,420
Et si je dis quelque chose,

2273
01:42:19,440 --> 01:42:20,200
ça va être stupide.

2274
01:42:21,100 --> 01:42:23,420
Et c'est le moteur de base qui continue de fonctionner.

2275
01:42:23,540 --> 01:42:24,620
Pas sur le podcast,

2276
01:42:24,760 --> 01:42:27,380
sur le podcast, mais aussi dans l'interaction humaine.

2277
01:42:28,020 --> 01:42:30,140
Et donc je pense qu'il y a cette énergie nerveuse

2278
01:42:30,140 --> 01:42:31,260
lors de l'interaction avec les gens.

2279
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:33,260
Tu ne peux jamais te tromper

2280
01:42:33,980 --> 01:42:35,020
en restant silencieux

2281
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:37,880
si tu n'as rien à dire.

2282
01:42:38,540 --> 01:42:39,900
Ce n'est pas quelque chose que je maîtrise,

2283
01:42:40,880 --> 01:42:43,100
mais je le fais, quand je suis journaliste,

2284
01:42:43,140 --> 01:42:44,880
essayez de maîtriser cela, ce qui est

2285
01:42:46,580 --> 01:42:50,400
ne posez pas de questions complexes.

2286
01:42:51,260 --> 01:42:53,480
N'intervenez pas.

2287
01:42:54,300 --> 01:42:56,360
Et quand quelqu'un n'a pas entièrement répondu à la question,

2288
01:42:56,800 --> 01:42:57,960
ne dis pas, eh bien, laisse-moi,

2289
01:42:58,380 --> 01:42:59,740
tu sais, reste silencieux

2290
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:01,600
et puis ils continueront à parler.

2291
01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:03,860
Donnez-leur simplement une chance de continuer à parler.

2292
01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:05,440
Même s'ils ont en quelque sorte fini,

2293
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:06,140
toujours.

2294
01:43:06,700 --> 01:43:08,140
Parfois, ils ne vous en ont pas donné assez.

2295
01:43:08,440 --> 01:43:09,760
Au lieu de faire un suivi,

2296
01:43:09,900 --> 01:43:12,140
Je vais juste hocher la tête et

2297
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:12,980
tenir à l'écart.

2298
01:43:13,400 --> 01:43:14,460
Vous donnez l'impression que les choses sont simples.

2299
01:43:14,760 --> 01:43:15,220
Y a-t-il

2300
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:17,700
un secret pour amener les gens à s'ouvrir davantage ?

2301
01:43:18,180 --> 01:43:19,420
j'ai un peu de chance

2302
01:43:20,060 --> 01:43:22,120
parce que, tu sais, j'ai commencé à travailler pour

2303
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:24,000
un quotidien

2304
01:43:25,040 --> 01:43:26,620
et les gens à l'époque,

2305
01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:29,780
ils veulent parler au journaliste.

2306
01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:31,640
Mais vous avez aussi une certaine façon de vous.

2307
01:43:31,820 --> 01:43:32,900
Genre, j'ai l'impression que tu as

2308
01:43:33,580 --> 01:43:35,300
comme un cow-boy dans un saloon.

2309
01:43:35,320 --> 01:43:36,580
Comme si tu voulais juste parler.

2310
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:37,840
Comme s'il y avait un match nul.

2311
01:43:37,960 --> 01:43:38,460
Je ne sais pas.

2312
01:43:39,540 --> 01:43:40,700
Je ne sais pas ce que c'est.

2313
01:43:40,840 --> 01:43:42,540
C'est peut-être le cas, je ne sais pas si c'est le développeur,

2314
01:43:42,580 --> 01:43:43,300
tu es né avec ça,

2315
01:43:43,300 --> 01:43:46,020
mais il y a un, j'ai l'impression que je veux vous raconter une sorte d'histoire.

2316
01:43:46,260 --> 01:43:47,660
Bien, raconte-moi une histoire.

2317
01:43:47,980 --> 01:43:50,180
Quelques choses.

2318
01:43:51,280 --> 01:43:51,900
j'ai appris

2319
01:43:53,260 --> 01:43:54,100
pour être plus tranquille.

2320
01:43:54,840 --> 01:43:57,020
Je suis sûr de savoir quand j'étais

2321
01:43:57,560 --> 01:43:58,560
plus jeune ou même

2322
01:43:59,380 --> 01:44:02,640
Je verrai des vidéos de moi, tu sais,

2323
01:44:04,080 --> 01:44:07,100
des choses d'actualité où j'essaie toujours de poser une question.

2324
01:44:07,740 --> 01:44:11,820
Et ainsi, on apprend parfois à être plus silencieux.

2325
01:44:12,120 --> 01:44:13,240
Je ne l'ai pas maîtrisé.

2326
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:14,340
Je ne l'ai pas assez appris.

2327
01:44:16,340 --> 01:44:18,380
Vous apprenez à être naturellement curieux.

2328
01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:22,120
De nombreux journalistes aujourd'hui, lorsqu'ils posent une question

2329
01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:24,640
ou ils essaient de jouer à Gotcha ou essaient

2330
01:44:24,660 --> 01:44:25,420
pour avoir des nouvelles

2331
01:44:25,940 --> 01:44:27,120
ramasser ou essayer de,

2332
01:44:28,620 --> 01:44:30,540
tu sais, jouer quelque chose qui peut faire

2333
01:44:31,120 --> 01:44:31,780
une piste.

2334
01:44:33,080 --> 01:44:33,760
Et

2335
01:44:34,660 --> 01:44:36,080
si en fait tu

2336
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:37,720
sont curieux

2337
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:40,900
et tu veux vraiment connaître la réponse à une question,

2338
01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:46,120
alors les gens peuvent dire que vous l'avez posé parce que vous voulez la réponse,

2339
01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:48,540
pas parce que vous jouez à un jeu avec eux.

2340
01:44:50,040 --> 01:44:52,140
Je suis sûr que certains d'entre eux sont officieux,

2341
01:44:52,260 --> 01:44:53,420
certains d'entre eux sont consignés dans le dossier, vous aviez

2342
01:44:54,620 --> 01:44:55,300
peut être,

2343
01:44:55,760 --> 01:44:56,020
Vous savez,

2344
01:44:57,460 --> 01:44:59,200
juste des conversations incroyables.

2345
01:44:59,560 --> 01:45:01,220
J'allais raconter certaines des plus grandes conversations

2346
01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:02,160
jamais, mais qui sait ?

2347
01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:06,040
Certaines des meilleures conversations de tous les temps ont probablement lieu quelque part en Amérique du Sud.

2348
01:45:06,040 --> 01:45:08,660
entre deux personnes ivres qu'on n'entend jamais.

2349
01:45:08,900 --> 01:45:10,000
Donc je ne sais pas, je ne sais pas.

2350
01:45:10,300 --> 01:45:11,260
Mais est

2351
01:45:12,260 --> 01:45:13,760
il y a un appareil que tu peux donner

2352
01:45:14,780 --> 01:45:18,960
de ce que vous avez appris à quelqu'un comme moi et comment avoir une bonne conversation,

2353
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:20,820
surtout une fois enregistré ?

2354
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:23,420
Eh bien, pour être vraiment curieux.

2355
01:45:23,940 --> 01:45:27,260
Je veux dire, chaque question que tu m'as posée est parce que je pense que tu veux vraiment savoir

2356
01:45:27,260 --> 01:45:29,500
la réponse et tu as fait tes devoirs

2357
01:45:30,420 --> 01:45:33,300
être ouvert et ne pas avoir d’agenda.

2358
01:45:34,180 --> 01:45:35,660
Je veux dire, nous tous

2359
01:45:36,540 --> 01:45:39,980
souffrent du fait qu’il y a trop d’agendas dans le monde aujourd’hui.

2360
01:45:41,220 --> 01:45:41,500
Ouais.

2361
01:45:41,500 --> 01:45:42,980
C'est donc juste une véritable curiosité,

2362
01:45:43,200 --> 01:45:46,120
mais, euh, il y a quelque chose quand tu parles

2363
01:45:46,140 --> 01:45:47,480
à propos d'une simple interaction en tête-à-tête,

2364
01:45:49,260 --> 01:45:50,820
que ce soit Elon ou Steve Jobs ou

2365
01:45:52,140 --> 01:45:53,180
il y a quelque chose

2366
01:45:54,500 --> 01:45:56,580
c'est beau dans l'esprit de cette personne.

2367
01:45:57,280 --> 01:45:58,280
Et c'est comme si

2368
01:45:59,560 --> 01:46:00,520
c'est possible

2369
01:46:01,240 --> 01:46:02,220
pour révéler cela,

2370
01:46:03,500 --> 01:46:04,980
pour découvrir cela ensemble

2371
01:46:06,420 --> 01:46:07,280
efficacement.

2372
01:46:08,700 --> 01:46:10,660
Et c'est un peu le but d'une conversation.

2373
01:46:11,160 --> 01:46:12,120
Eh bien, je veux dire, écoute,

2374
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:17,140
vous faites partie des meilleurs podcasteurs et intervieweurs

2375
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:18,780
dans le monde d'aujourd'hui.

2376
01:46:19,720 --> 01:46:21,620
Vous avez du sérieux envers vous.

2377
01:46:23,340 --> 01:46:26,320
Ben Franklin est la personne qui m'a appris,

2378
01:46:27,000 --> 01:46:27,600
Je veux dire,

2379
01:46:28,040 --> 01:46:28,680
en le lisant

2380
01:46:29,260 --> 01:46:31,360
le plus sur la conversation.

2381
01:46:31,520 --> 01:46:33,400
Il a écrit un merveilleux essai à ce sujet.

2382
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:35,200
Cela inclut le silence.

2383
01:46:36,700 --> 01:46:36,840
Euh,

2384
01:46:37,940 --> 01:46:39,540
mais cela inclut

2385
01:46:41,460 --> 01:46:45,520
essayer de poser des questions sincères plutôt que

2386
01:46:46,880 --> 01:46:47,780
faire passer un message.

2387
01:46:48,800 --> 01:46:49,300
Je veux dire,

2388
01:46:50,180 --> 01:46:56,640
c'est un peu socratique, mais chaque fois qu'il se demandait,

2389
01:46:57,360 --> 01:47:00,900
Je voulais créer un noyau de pompiers à Philadelphie.

2390
01:47:02,680 --> 01:47:05,800
Il allait dans son groupe qu'il appelait le club des tabliers de cuir

2391
01:47:06,560 --> 01:47:07,680
et ils poseraient une question.

2392
01:47:08,080 --> 01:47:09,220
Pourquoi ne l'avons-nous pas ?

2393
01:47:10,020 --> 01:47:11,060
Que faudrait-il ?

2394
01:47:11,200 --> 01:47:11,940
Qu'est-ce qui serait bien ?

2395
01:47:12,400 --> 01:47:15,220
Et puis la deuxième partie consiste à vous assurer que vous écoutez.

2396
01:47:15,740 --> 01:47:17,760
Et si quelqu'un vient de le faire

2397
01:47:17,780 --> 01:47:19,040
le germe d'une idée,

2398
01:47:20,040 --> 01:47:21,340
donnez-leur du crédit pour cela.

2399
01:47:21,440 --> 01:47:21,580
Comme

2400
01:47:22,260 --> 01:47:23,240
comme Joe l'a dit,

2401
01:47:23,780 --> 01:47:26,080
tu sais, le vrai problème c'est ça,

2402
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:31,960
et je pense que

2403
01:47:33,060 --> 01:47:37,420
si je suis dans des situations et que je parle juste d'un dîner ou quelque chose comme ça,

2404
01:47:37,900 --> 01:47:38,420
Je suis avec quelqu'un,

2405
01:47:39,940 --> 01:47:42,280
Je suis généralement curieux et je vais,

2406
01:47:42,860 --> 01:47:44,300
la conversation continuera,

2407
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:46,540
vous savez, avec, avec des questions.

2408
01:47:46,740 --> 01:47:49,580
Et je suppose que c'est aussi parce que

2409
01:47:49,580 --> 01:47:52,660
Je suis assez intéressé par ce que font les gens,

2410
01:47:52,860 --> 01:47:53,960
peu importe avec qui je me trouve.

2411
01:47:55,820 --> 01:47:56,820
Et c'est

2412
01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:01,680
un talent que vous avez, c'est que vous êtes assez sincère dans vos intérêts.

2413
01:48:02,860 --> 01:48:03,480
Il y a des gens

2414
01:48:04,500 --> 01:48:05,660
comme Benjamin Franklin,

2415
01:48:06,180 --> 01:48:06,500
comme le,

2416
01:48:07,340 --> 01:48:08,440
Je dirai Charlie Rose,

2417
01:48:08,460 --> 01:48:09,900
même s'il est en disgrâce,

2418
01:48:10,380 --> 01:48:12,740
qui s'intéressent à un grand nombre de sujets.

2419
01:48:12,740 --> 01:48:14,280
Et je pense que ça aide aussi

2420
01:48:14,680 --> 01:48:19,640
s'intéresser au basket-ball, à l'opéra, à la physique et à la métaphysique.

2421
01:48:21,140 --> 01:48:21,760
Euh, c'était un Ben

2422
01:48:21,780 --> 01:48:23,620
Franklin, c'était un truc de Leonardo,

2423
01:48:24,060 --> 01:48:24,300
lequel est

2424
01:48:25,160 --> 01:48:26,740
ils voulaient savoir tout ce que tu pouvais

2425
01:48:26,740 --> 01:48:28,240
peut-être connaître tous les sujets connaissables.

2426
01:48:30,220 --> 01:48:32,240
Mais il y a un autre aspect à cela,

2427
01:48:32,540 --> 01:48:33,400
c'est-à-dire, euh,

2428
01:48:34,200 --> 01:48:36,000
que j'aimerais entendre

2429
01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:38,260
comment vous l'avez résolu ou si vous y avez fait face,

2430
01:48:38,720 --> 01:48:39,860
que tu es certainement désarmant.

2431
01:48:41,860 --> 01:48:41,900
Euh,

2432
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:44,500
tu vois, je suis en train de te parsemer de compliments,

2433
01:48:44,540 --> 01:48:45,300
essayant de t'avoir.

2434
01:48:45,440 --> 01:48:46,500
C'est une méthode très désarmante.

2435
01:48:46,660 --> 01:48:47,040
Ouais.

2436
01:48:47,400 --> 01:48:49,260
J'ai récemment parlé à Benjamin et Yahoo.

2437
01:48:49,480 --> 01:48:50,480
Nous allons, nous en reparlerons.

2438
01:48:50,700 --> 01:48:54,140
Malheureusement, à cause d'un planning et de complexités, nous n'avons eu qu'une heure,

2439
01:48:54,200 --> 01:48:55,620
ce qui est très difficile,

2440
01:48:55,920 --> 01:48:56,900
très difficile

2441
01:48:57,340 --> 01:48:58,720
avec le politicien charismatique.

2442
01:48:59,660 --> 01:49:00,460
Je comprends ça,

2443
01:49:00,780 --> 01:49:03,240
mais c'est aussi un causeur charismatique,

2444
01:49:03,240 --> 01:49:05,500
ce qui est très difficile à franchir en une heure.

2445
01:49:07,060 --> 01:49:08,080
Euh, mais il y a des gens qui ont

2446
01:49:09,040 --> 01:49:09,840
murs construits,

2447
01:49:10,220 --> 01:49:12,380
que ce soit à cause des démons ou à cause de,

2448
01:49:12,380 --> 01:49:13,320
euh, leurs politiciens.

2449
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:15,100
Et donc ils ont des agendas et

2450
01:49:15,100 --> 01:49:15,980
récits et ainsi de suite.

2451
01:49:16,080 --> 01:49:17,900
Et donc pour les surmonter,

2452
01:49:18,620 --> 01:49:20,660
euh, je me demande s'il y a des conseils, des

2453
01:49:21,040 --> 01:49:23,940
la sagesse que tu as apprise sur la façon de, euh,

2454
01:49:24,760 --> 01:49:27,280
une sorte d'usure à cause de l'eau ou autre,

2455
01:49:28,900 --> 01:49:29,920
ou quelle que soit la méthode,

2456
01:49:30,340 --> 01:49:32,300
les, les murs que nous avons construits en tant qu'individus.

2457
01:49:33,220 --> 01:49:34,500
Je veux dire, tu appelles ça désarmant,

2458
01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:36,580
ce que je ne sais pas que je suis,

2459
01:49:36,700 --> 01:49:38,380
mais désarmer signifie essentiellement

2460
01:49:38,380 --> 01:49:40,600
vous enlevez également leurs boucliers.

2461
01:49:41,500 --> 01:49:43,600
Et tu sais, quand les gens ont un bouclier

2462
01:49:45,060 --> 01:49:47,860
et tu essaies de leur apporter du réconfort,

2463
01:49:48,520 --> 01:49:51,120
Je n’ai eu aucun problème avec Elon Musk.

2464
01:49:51,780 --> 01:49:52,400
Je veux dire, c'était

2465
01:49:53,180 --> 01:49:54,160
comme désarmant pour moi,

2466
01:49:54,560 --> 01:49:54,820
lequel est

2467
01:49:55,420 --> 01:49:56,640
J'attendais toujours pour dire,

2468
01:49:56,720 --> 01:49:57,580
ok, il ne le fera pas,

2469
01:49:57,700 --> 01:49:59,440
il a une carapace, sinon il ne fera pas ça.

2470
01:50:00,100 --> 01:50:00,620
Mais

2471
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:01,700
il était,

2472
01:50:02,700 --> 01:50:04,040
euh,

2473
01:50:04,600 --> 01:50:05,100
presque

2474
01:50:05,760 --> 01:50:09,280
follement ouvert

2475
01:50:10,360 --> 01:50:14,400
et il ne semblait pas, euh,

2476
01:50:14,900 --> 01:50:18,080
je veux tourner, cacher ou faire semblant de choses.

2477
01:50:18,980 --> 01:50:20,240
Euh,

2478
01:50:21,240 --> 01:50:22,300
et j'ai eu de la chance.

2479
01:50:23,280 --> 01:50:24,360
Doudna était comme ça.

2480
01:50:25,100 --> 01:50:27,160
Steve Jobs était comme ça,

2481
01:50:27,780 --> 01:50:29,260
qu'il faut aussi y mettre du temps.

2482
01:50:29,480 --> 01:50:30,200
En d'autres termes, euh,

2483
01:50:31,220 --> 01:50:36,140
tu ne peux pas dire, d'accord, il y a une interview d'une heure et je vais abattre tous les murs.

2484
01:50:36,400 --> 01:50:37,800
C'est comme lors de votre cinquième visite.

2485
01:50:39,620 --> 01:50:41,660
Une des choses dans ma situation, tu apprends

2486
01:50:43,320 --> 01:50:44,500
la cinquième visite est très sympa,

2487
01:50:44,620 --> 01:50:45,980
mais parfois, vous n'obtenez pas une cinquième visite.

2488
01:50:46,400 --> 01:50:47,540
Parfois, ce n'est que le premier rendez-vous.

2489
01:50:48,420 --> 01:50:48,880
Et, euh,

2490
01:50:49,480 --> 01:50:51,200
Je pense à quoi ça se résume,

2491
01:50:51,280 --> 01:50:52,560
et nous avons dit désarmant,

2492
01:50:52,840 --> 01:50:56,640
mais il y a quelque chose chez cette personne qui

2493
01:50:57,320 --> 01:50:57,840
tu fais confiance.

2494
01:50:58,740 --> 01:51:00,400
Je pense que cela se résume en grande partie à la confiance

2495
01:51:01,120 --> 01:51:02,540
d'une manière profondément humaine.

2496
01:51:03,200 --> 01:51:03,640
Et je pense,

2497
01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:07,260
euh, avec, avec, euh, avec beaucoup de gens avec qui j'ai parlé,

2498
01:51:07,700 --> 01:51:10,060
parfois la confiance se produit comme après l'entretien,

2499
01:51:10,580 --> 01:51:11,800
ce qui est vraiment triste parce que

2500
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:12,980
c'est comme, oh mec,

2501
01:51:13,340 --> 01:51:16,320
Je n'ai jamais été dans ta situation où j'ai un spectacle.

2502
01:51:17,100 --> 01:51:17,760
J'ai régulièrement.

2503
01:51:19,340 --> 01:51:19,660
Deuxième,

2504
01:51:19,960 --> 01:51:23,720
Je ne suis pas une personne qui aime les premiers rendez-vous.

2505
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:24,200
Ouais.

2506
01:51:24,200 --> 01:51:24,420
Ouais.

2507
01:51:24,420 --> 01:51:24,660
Ouais.

2508
01:51:24,720 --> 01:51:24,880
Bien,

2509
01:51:25,240 --> 01:51:26,520
tu sais, mais j'ai de la chance.

2510
01:51:26,680 --> 01:51:28,980
Je veux dire, je suis dedans, je dis chanceux, mais je suis imprimé,

2511
01:51:29,560 --> 01:51:29,960
Vous savez,

2512
01:51:30,520 --> 01:51:33,960
l'impression est un support vieux de quelques milliers d'années,

2513
01:51:34,100 --> 01:51:35,320
mais il y a ceux d'entre nous qui l'aiment.

2514
01:51:35,960 --> 01:51:39,840
Eh bien, la nature du média podcast est que j'en suis un,

2515
01:51:39,840 --> 01:51:40,940
une aventure d'un soir, une sorte de fille.

2516
01:51:41,990 --> 01:51:42,740
Euh,

2517
01:51:43,240 --> 01:51:44,600
permettez-moi de vous poser des questions sur l'objectivité.

2518
01:51:44,600 --> 01:51:46,880
Vous avez suivi Elon et vous suivez Steve.

2519
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:47,620
Comme tu l'es,

2520
01:51:48,460 --> 01:51:50,240
Je veux dire, je ne sais même pas si tu dirais à ton ami,

2521
01:51:50,840 --> 01:51:52,420
il faut faire attention avec des mots comme ça,

2522
01:51:52,420 --> 01:51:53,680
mais tu l'es, il y a une intimité.

2523
01:51:54,040 --> 01:51:58,820
Euh, et comment restez-vous objectif ?

2524
01:52:00,100 --> 01:52:03,780
Vous souhaitez rester objectif tout en racontant une histoire profondément humaine ?

2525
01:52:03,900 --> 01:52:04,260
Ouais.

2526
01:52:04,480 --> 01:52:06,120
Je veux dire, je veux être honnête,

2527
01:52:06,600 --> 01:52:09,540
ce qui, je pense, revient à être objectif.

2528
01:52:11,100 --> 01:52:12,800
Euh, j'essaie de garder à l'esprit

2529
01:52:14,250 --> 01:52:16,020
pour qui, pour qui est-ce que j'écris ?

2530
01:52:16,700 --> 01:52:18,140
Je n'écris pas pour Elon Musk.

2531
01:52:18,640 --> 01:52:19,220
Comme je dis,

2532
01:52:19,860 --> 01:52:20,880
Je ne lui ai pas envoyé le livre.

2533
01:52:21,260 --> 01:52:22,140
Je ne sais pas s'il,

2534
01:52:22,400 --> 01:52:23,940
Je ne pense pas qu'il l'ait encore lu.

2535
01:52:24,140 --> 01:52:25,480
Euh,

2536
01:52:26,380 --> 01:52:27,620
J'ai une personne pour qui j'écris

2537
01:52:27,840 --> 01:52:30,480
le lecteur ouvert d’esprit.

2538
01:52:31,400 --> 01:52:32,300
Et

2539
01:52:33,600 --> 01:52:35,360
si je peux mettre

2540
01:52:35,980 --> 01:52:37,600
une histoire et dire, eh bien, ça va

2541
01:52:38,360 --> 01:52:41,940
faire chier le sujet ou ça fera vraiment plaisir au sujet.

2542
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:44,100
Ce n'est pas pertinent.

2543
01:52:44,300 --> 01:52:45,320
Ou j'essaye de faire

2544
01:52:45,320 --> 01:52:47,000
c’est une considération mineure.

2545
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:49,500
C'est la volonté du lecteur

2546
01:52:51,240 --> 01:52:53,500
avoir une meilleure compréhension parce que

2547
01:52:53,520 --> 01:52:55,200
J'ai mis cette histoire dans le livre.

2548
01:52:57,520 --> 01:52:58,520
Je suis un peu romantique.

2549
01:53:00,560 --> 01:53:04,640
Donc pour moi, même ton livre d'Einstein avait des leçons

2550
01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:07,280
sur la romance et les relations.

2551
01:53:07,460 --> 01:53:08,000
Oh cher.

2552
01:53:09,260 --> 01:53:13,680
Alors, quelle est l'importance des relations amoureuses pour le succès d'un grand homme, d'une grande femme,

2553
01:53:14,040 --> 01:53:14,480
grands esprits?

2554
01:53:16,060 --> 01:53:20,400
Eh bien, parfois, des gens qui affectent le cours de l'humanité

2555
01:53:21,180 --> 01:53:22,500
avoir de meilleures relations avec

2556
01:53:22,580 --> 01:53:26,140
l’humanité qu’avec les humains assis autour d’eux.

2557
01:53:26,480 --> 01:53:28,800
Einstein avait

2558
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:31,940
deux relations intéressantes

2559
01:53:32,380 --> 01:53:32,840
avec les femmes.

2560
01:53:33,500 --> 01:53:35,440
Sa, vous savez, Maleva, sa première femme était

2561
01:53:35,980 --> 01:53:37,600
une caisse de résonance et une aide pour

2562
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:40,800
mathématiques de l'article sur la relativité restreinte en particulier.

2563
01:53:41,680 --> 01:53:42,260
Euh,

2564
01:53:42,820 --> 01:53:44,200
mais il ne l'a pas soignée

2565
01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:44,520
Bien.

2566
01:53:44,800 --> 01:53:45,300
Je veux dire, lui,

2567
01:53:46,040 --> 01:53:50,400
euh, je lui ai fait signer une lettre pour qu'elle ne l'interrompe pas.

2568
01:53:50,440 --> 01:53:53,940
Elle ne l'a pas fait, tu sais, et finalement, quand elle a voulu divorcer,

2569
01:53:53,940 --> 01:53:54,800
il ne pouvait pas se le permettre

2570
01:53:55,460 --> 01:53:56,500
parce qu'il était encore commis aux brevets.

2571
01:53:58,180 --> 01:54:00,460
Et donc, euh, il lui a proposé un marché,

2572
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:02,820
ce qui est, je pense, totalement incroyable.

2573
01:54:03,360 --> 01:54:03,760
Il a dit,

2574
01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:04,800
un de ces jours,

2575
01:54:04,900 --> 01:54:06,360
un de ces papiers de 1905

2576
01:54:07,100 --> 01:54:08,400
va gagner le prix Nobel.

2577
01:54:09,740 --> 01:54:09,920
Si

2578
01:54:10,500 --> 01:54:11,540
nous divorçons,

2579
01:54:12,380 --> 01:54:14,100
euh, tu sais, je vais te donner l'argent.

2580
01:54:15,300 --> 01:54:16,100
Euh,

2581
01:54:16,460 --> 01:54:17,120
c'était beaucoup d'argent

2582
01:54:17,260 --> 01:54:19,280
à l'époque, comme un million de dollars maintenant ou quelque chose comme ça.

2583
01:54:20,200 --> 01:54:21,220
Et elle est intelligente.

2584
01:54:21,300 --> 01:54:22,140
C'est une scientifique.

2585
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:24,100
Elle consulte quelques autres scientifiques.

2586
01:54:24,100 --> 01:54:26,340
Et après environ une semaine, elle accepte le pari.

2587
01:54:27,240 --> 01:54:28,540
Est-ce jusqu'à quoi,

2588
01:54:28,850 --> 01:54:30,920
1919 qu'il remporte son prix Nobel ?

2589
01:54:32,880 --> 01:54:33,640
Euh, et

2590
01:54:34,500 --> 01:54:35,400
elle reçoit tout l'argent.

2591
01:54:35,440 --> 01:54:37,360
Elle achète trois immeubles à Zurich.

2592
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:40,480
Euh, avec sa seconde femme, Elsa,

2593
01:54:41,240 --> 01:54:44,360
il s'agissait plutôt d'un partenariat de convenance.

2594
01:54:44,820 --> 01:54:45,660
Ce n'était pas

2595
01:54:46,400 --> 01:54:47,500
un amour romantique,

2596
01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:52,820
mais il le savait, et c'est parfois ce dont les gens ont besoin dans la vie, c'est juste d'un partenaire.

2597
01:54:53,500 --> 01:54:56,180
Je veux dire, quelqu'un qui va gérer les choses que vous n'allez pas gérer.

2598
01:54:56,880 --> 01:54:59,380
Donc je suppose que si vous regardez mes livres,

2599
01:55:00,980 --> 01:55:05,460
ce ne sont pas de grands guides inspirants pour les relations personnelles.

2600
01:55:06,620 --> 01:55:09,380
Permettez-moi de vous poser des questions sur le processus d'écriture lui-même.

2601
01:55:10,260 --> 01:55:12,260
Quand tu as observé, quand tu as écouté,

2602
01:55:13,000 --> 01:55:14,540
quand vous avez collecté toutes les informations,

2603
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:18,040
qu'est-ce que c'est, euh, peut-être même juste du banal et idiot

2604
01:55:18,040 --> 01:55:22,640
La question est, euh, qu'est-ce que tu manges au petit-déjeuner avant de commencer à écrire ?

2605
01:55:22,840 --> 01:55:23,520
Quand écris-tu ?

2606
01:55:23,820 --> 01:55:24,260
Tout d'abord,

2607
01:55:24,560 --> 01:55:26,380
le petit-déjeuner n'est pas mon repas préféré.

2608
01:55:26,680 --> 01:55:28,760
Et ces gens qui te disent que tu

2609
01:55:28,760 --> 01:55:30,200
il faut commencer par un petit-déjeuner copieux,

2610
01:55:31,260 --> 01:55:32,580
J'ai l'air de travers.

2611
01:55:32,860 --> 01:55:33,300
Oui.

2612
01:55:33,460 --> 01:55:35,320
Euh, et le matin n'est pas mon préféré

2613
01:55:35,440 --> 01:55:35,920
partie de jour.

2614
01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:38,620
Alors j'écris la nuit et

2615
01:55:39,140 --> 01:55:41,460
parce que j'aime le récit,

2616
01:55:42,100 --> 01:55:43,800
c'est facile de structurer un livre,

2617
01:55:44,120 --> 01:55:49,920
c'est-à-dire que je peux faire un plan qui, si je l'imprimais ou si des notes seraient

2618
01:55:50,840 --> 01:55:51,840
une centaine de pages,

2619
01:55:52,420 --> 01:55:53,760
mais tout est en ordre.

2620
01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:55,020
Autrement dit,

2621
01:55:56,960 --> 01:56:00,100
si nous servons, s'il y a un homme en feu

2622
01:56:00,100 --> 01:56:03,280
et il revient de Grimes et puis il y a une histoire de toit solaire,

2623
01:56:03,280 --> 01:56:04,400
et puis il y a quelque chose,

2624
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:07,240
j'ai tout mis en ordre

2625
01:56:07,820 --> 01:56:08,720
jour après jour

2626
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:10,720
comme un aperçu.

2627
01:56:11,020 --> 01:56:12,360
Et ça me discipline quand

2628
01:56:12,360 --> 01:56:18,240
Je commence à écrire pour suivre le mantra d'Alice Mayhew, ma première éditrice,

2629
01:56:18,760 --> 01:56:20,380
ce qui est tout à temps.

2630
01:56:20,420 --> 01:56:21,520
N'anticipez pas l'histoire.

2631
01:56:21,560 --> 01:56:23,040
Pas besoin de revenir en arrière.

2632
01:56:24,380 --> 01:56:26,080
Euh, et puis après l'avoir reçu

2633
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:28,360
pour que tout soit chronologique,

2634
01:56:28,380 --> 01:56:30,560
vous savez, des choses, alors vous devez faire du clustering.

2635
01:56:31,120 --> 01:56:32,060
Tu sais, tu dois dire,

2636
01:56:32,140 --> 01:56:35,320
ok, nous allons faire le

2637
01:56:35,320 --> 01:56:40,600
décision de créer Starship ou de construire une usine au Texas ou autre.

2638
01:56:41,100 --> 01:56:45,020
Et puis on a parfois un problème d'organisation,

2639
01:56:45,320 --> 01:56:46,420
ouais, et ça nous attire tous

2640
01:56:46,420 --> 01:56:47,460
le chemin jusqu'ici.

2641
01:56:48,140 --> 01:56:49,260
Est-ce que je garde ça dans ça,

2642
01:56:49,260 --> 01:56:52,460
ce chapitre ou est-ce que j'attends

2643
01:56:52,680 --> 01:56:55,080
plus tard quand c'est mieux chronologiquement ?

2644
01:56:55,660 --> 01:56:56,440
Mais ce sont des choses faciles.

2645
01:56:57,080 --> 01:56:59,200
Eh bien, qu'en est-il du réel

2646
01:56:59,880 --> 01:57:00,700
le processus de

2647
01:57:01,260 --> 01:57:02,140
raconter l'histoire ?

2648
01:57:02,880 --> 01:57:05,120
Eh bien, c'est le mantra que j'ai mentionné plus tôt,

2649
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:06,980
c'est à chaque fois que je reçois

2650
01:57:08,120 --> 01:57:09,460
fais une pause ou je ne sais pas comment faire

2651
01:57:09,840 --> 01:57:10,420
dire quelque chose,

2652
01:57:10,840 --> 01:57:12,480
Je dis juste, laissez-moi vous raconter une histoire.

2653
01:57:12,660 --> 01:57:13,980
Et puis je trouve

2654
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:17,580
l'anecdote réelle, l'histoire,

2655
01:57:18,880 --> 01:57:22,780
le conte qui englobe ce que j'essaie de transmettre.

2656
01:57:23,200 --> 01:57:24,560
Et puis je ne dis pas ce que j'essaie de dire

2657
01:57:24,700 --> 01:57:25,060
transmettre.

2658
01:57:25,340 --> 01:57:28,700
Je n'ai pas de phrase de transition qui dit,

2659
01:57:28,720 --> 01:57:33,960
vous savez, Elon change parfois d'avis si souvent qu'il ne se souvient plus s'il a changé d'avis ou,

2660
01:57:34,240 --> 01:57:34,920
tu sais, tu ne le sais pas,

2661
01:57:35,420 --> 01:57:37,180
vous n'avez pas besoin de phrases de transition.

2662
01:57:37,900 --> 01:57:38,480
Tu dis juste,

2663
01:57:38,860 --> 01:57:41,100
très bien, voici le point que je dois souligner ensuite.

2664
01:57:41,840 --> 01:57:42,500
Et ainsi

2665
01:57:43,080 --> 01:57:45,040
vous commencez par une phrase qui dit,

2666
01:57:46,020 --> 01:57:49,700
vous savez, un jour de janvier dans l'usine du Texas, virgule.

2667
01:57:51,020 --> 01:57:56,980
Eh bien, une des choses que j'aimerais vous demander, c'est des conseils pour,

2668
01:57:56,980 --> 01:57:58,800
pour les jeunes, pour moi,

2669
01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:08,440
premier conseil serait de lire des biographies dans le sens où elles vous aident à comprendre toutes les

2670
01:58:08,500 --> 01:58:10,520
différentes façons de vivre une vie bien vécue.

2671
01:58:11,540 --> 01:58:14,000
Mais pour avoir écrit des biographies,

2672
01:58:14,180 --> 01:58:17,300
ayant étudié tant de grands hommes et femmes,

2673
01:58:17,980 --> 01:58:21,760
quels conseils pourriez-vous donner aux gens sur la façon de vivre cela,

2674
01:58:22,280 --> 01:58:22,700
cette vie?

2675
01:58:23,020 --> 01:58:28,040
Eh bien, je reviens sans cesse aux classiques, à Platon, à Aristote et à Socrate.

2676
01:58:30,060 --> 01:58:33,240
Et je suppose que c'est la maxime de Platon, mais il cite peut-être Socrate,

2677
01:58:33,760 --> 01:58:35,760
qu'une vie non examinée ne vaut pas la peine d'être vécue.

2678
01:58:37,220 --> 01:58:39,100
Et cela nous ramène à la connaissance de soi,

2679
01:58:39,520 --> 01:58:41,320
lequel est

2680
01:58:42,200 --> 01:58:44,080
tu n'as pas besoin de comprendre quel est le gros

2681
01:58:44,100 --> 01:58:45,040
le sens de tout cela,

2682
01:58:45,560 --> 01:58:46,840
mais tu dois comprendre

2683
01:58:47,740 --> 01:58:49,220
pourquoi tu fais ce que tu fais.

2684
01:58:50,780 --> 01:58:51,120
Et

2685
01:58:52,100 --> 01:58:57,160
cela demande quelque chose dont je n'avais pas assez quand j'étais jeune,

2686
01:58:58,200 --> 01:59:00,540
qui est la conscience de soi

2687
01:59:01,660 --> 01:59:03,800
et examinant chaque motif,

2688
01:59:04,600 --> 01:59:05,440
tout ce que je fais.

2689
01:59:07,640 --> 01:59:09,360
Où vous mène l’examen ?

2690
01:59:10,020 --> 01:59:13,900
Est-ce pour, pour, pour un changement,

2691
01:59:16,640 --> 01:59:17,680
dans le parcours de vie ?

2692
01:59:17,900 --> 01:59:18,360
Je veux dire,

2693
01:59:18,960 --> 01:59:21,080
ce n'est pas pour moi en quelque sorte,

2694
01:59:21,220 --> 01:59:24,400
très bien, j'ai maintenant décidé d'être journaliste,

2695
01:59:24,500 --> 01:59:27,460
Je dirigerai un groupe de réflexion ou je dirigerai un réseau

2696
01:59:27,460 --> 01:59:28,480
ou j'écrirai une biographie.

2697
01:59:30,020 --> 01:59:33,580
C'est en fait quelque chose de plus utile sur une base horaire.

2698
01:59:34,360 --> 01:59:34,860
Comme,

2699
01:59:35,660 --> 01:59:40,220
pourquoi je suis sur le point de dire ça à quelqu'un ou pourquoi je vais le dire

2700
01:59:41,380 --> 01:59:43,280
faire cet acte particulier ?

2701
01:59:44,360 --> 01:59:47,060
Quelle est ma véritable motivation ici ?

2702
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:50,200
Et aussi au sens large

2703
01:59:50,820 --> 01:59:53,380
apprendre comme je l'ai fait après quelques années à CNN,

2704
01:59:55,980 --> 02:00:02,850
Moi, mon examen de ma vie est que je ne suis pas doué pour diriger des organisations complexes.

2705
02:00:03,860 --> 02:00:05,640
Je ne suis pas génial en tant que manager,

2706
02:00:06,380 --> 02:00:06,960
donné le choix.

2707
02:00:06,980 --> 02:00:08,960
Je préférerais que quelqu'un d'autre me gère

2708
02:00:08,960 --> 02:00:10,400
que moi, je dois gérer les gens.

2709
02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:13,540
Mais il m'a fallu du temps pour comprendre cela.

2710
02:00:14,040 --> 02:00:14,680
Et j'étais probablement

2711
02:00:14,680 --> 02:00:18,040
trop ambitieux quand j'étais jeune et chez Time Magazine.

2712
02:00:19,000 --> 02:00:21,100
C'était quand j'étais vert et,

2713
02:00:21,880 --> 02:00:22,240
tant pis,

2714
02:00:22,800 --> 02:00:25,880
c'était à l'époque où j'étais dans mes jours de salade en vert et en jugement.

2715
02:00:27,260 --> 02:00:29,280
Et c'était comme courir après

2716
02:00:30,680 --> 02:00:32,880
le niveau supérieur chez Time Incorporated,

2717
02:00:32,880 --> 02:00:34,060
quoi que ce soit.

2718
02:00:35,080 --> 02:00:40,640
Et puis un jour, j'ai attrapé le ring et je suis devenu rédacteur en chef, puis rédacteur en chef.

2719
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:42,560
Et au bout d'un moment j'ai réalisé

2720
02:00:43,380 --> 02:00:44,860
ce n'était pas

2721
02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:48,020
vraiment tout à fait ce pour quoi je suis fait,

2722
02:00:48,020 --> 02:00:50,480
surtout quand j'ai été nommé responsable de CNN.

2723
02:00:51,580 --> 02:00:53,660
Je veux dire, tous les jeunes sont presque là

2724
02:00:53,680 --> 02:00:56,460
définition dans leurs jours de salade en vert et jugement.

2725
02:00:57,600 --> 02:00:57,840
Mais

2726
02:00:59,160 --> 02:01:00,320
vous apprenez

2727
02:01:00,980 --> 02:01:02,660
ce qui te motive.

2728
02:01:02,720 --> 02:01:04,600
Et puis tu apprends à demander,

2729
02:01:06,160 --> 02:01:08,400
mais est-ce vraiment ce que je veux ?

2730
02:01:08,520 --> 02:01:10,600
Dois-je faire attention à ce que je souhaite ?

2731
02:01:13,320 --> 02:01:13,820
Un des

2732
02:01:14,480 --> 02:01:17,280
les grands examens que vous pouvez faire sont le fait

2733
02:01:17,820 --> 02:01:20,220
que toi et tout le monde mourrez un jour.

2734
02:01:21,700 --> 02:01:22,740
Dans quelle mesure modifiez-vous,

2735
02:01:23,360 --> 02:01:24,020
Isaacson ?

2736
02:01:24,140 --> 02:01:24,760
Pensez à la mort.

2737
02:01:25,100 --> 02:01:25,860
En as-tu peur ?

2738
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:28,000
Non, et je n'y pense pas beaucoup.

2739
02:01:28,060 --> 02:01:29,780
Mais je pense à Steve Jobs,

2740
02:01:29,880 --> 02:01:30,800
Laissez-moi vous raconter une histoire,

2741
02:01:30,840 --> 02:01:34,300
qui est la merveilleuse histoire de Steve Jobs,

2742
02:01:35,120 --> 02:01:36,120
Je pense qu'après qu'il ait été

2743
02:01:36,120 --> 02:01:37,740
diagnostiqué, mais avant qu'il ne soit rendu public.

2744
02:01:38,400 --> 02:01:41,140
Et il a donné une conférence à Stanford, mais d'autres choses,

2745
02:01:42,120 --> 02:01:43,400
dans lequel il a dit

2746
02:01:44,160 --> 02:01:46,600
le fait que nous allons mourir

2747
02:01:47,700 --> 02:01:48,240
vous donne la concentration

2748
02:01:48,760 --> 02:01:49,380
et vous donne du sens.

2749
02:01:49,560 --> 02:01:50,260
Si tu veux vivre,

2750
02:01:50,660 --> 02:01:52,660
et Elon Musk me l'a dit,

2751
02:01:52,840 --> 02:01:54,520
ce qui représente une grande partie de la technologie

2752
02:01:54,520 --> 02:01:58,420
des frères de la Silicon Valley qui cherchent des moyens de vivre éternellement.

2753
02:01:59,080 --> 02:02:00,680
Je peux penser, dit Musk,

2754
02:02:01,000 --> 02:02:02,440
de rien de pire.

2755
02:02:03,160 --> 02:02:08,600
Nous lisons le mythe de Sisyphe et nous savons à quel point il est mauvais d'être condamné à la vie éternelle.

2756
02:02:10,460 --> 02:02:11,080
Donc

2757
02:02:12,820 --> 02:02:15,060
il y avait une Grèce antique,

2758
02:02:15,220 --> 02:02:19,020
la personne qui marchait derrière le roi et disait, memento mori,

2759
02:02:19,540 --> 02:02:20,680
souviens-toi que tu vas mourir.

2760
02:02:21,400 --> 02:02:26,540
Et cela empêchait les gens de

2761
02:02:27,520 --> 02:02:28,860
je le perds un peu.

2762
02:02:28,860 --> 02:02:30,320
Pensez-vous à l'héritage?

2763
02:02:30,940 --> 02:02:33,780
La chance d'être biographe

2764
02:02:34,820 --> 02:02:37,100
c'est que vous savez en quelque sorte quel est votre héritage.

2765
02:02:37,380 --> 02:02:39,600
Il va y avoir une étagère et ce sera intéressant

2766
02:02:39,620 --> 02:02:44,400
des gens et tu auras inspiré un jeune de 17 ans

2767
02:02:44,940 --> 02:02:48,360
étudiant en biologie quelque part où être

2768
02:02:49,020 --> 02:02:55,620
le prochain grand biochimiste ou quelqu'un qui créera une entreprise comme Elon Musk.

2769
02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:02,060
Et ce à quoi je pense le plus,

2770
02:03:02,500 --> 02:03:03,540
Je ne dirai pas de redonner,

2771
02:03:03,600 --> 02:03:04,940
c'est une chose tellement banale.

2772
02:03:05,560 --> 02:03:07,140
Je suis retourné à la Nouvelle-Orléans

2773
02:03:08,800 --> 02:03:09,520
pour une raison.

2774
02:03:09,960 --> 02:03:11,220
Tout d’abord, l’ouragan a frappé.

2775
02:03:11,820 --> 02:03:13,520
Et après Katrina, on m'a demandé de

2776
02:03:14,300 --> 02:03:16,520
être vice-président de l’autorité de recouvrement.

2777
02:03:17,040 --> 02:03:17,620
Et j'ai réalisé

2778
02:03:18,360 --> 02:03:20,020
tout ce que j'ai pour moi,

2779
02:03:20,820 --> 02:03:21,680
tout vient de ça

2780
02:03:22,340 --> 02:03:22,940
beau

2781
02:03:23,940 --> 02:03:26,060
joyau d’une ville en difficulté.

2782
02:03:27,200 --> 02:03:29,060
Le merveilleux lycée où je suis allé,

2783
02:03:29,080 --> 02:03:31,360
les rues merveilleuses où j'ai appris

2784
02:03:31,380 --> 02:03:35,680
faire du vélo et ça comporte des défis.

2785
02:03:36,220 --> 02:03:38,120
Je ne résoudrai jamais les défis

2786
02:03:38,940 --> 02:03:41,120
au grand niveau mondial,

2787
02:03:41,600 --> 02:03:43,160
mais je peux rentrer chez moi

2788
02:03:43,940 --> 02:03:46,360
et je dis qu'une partie de mon héritage sera,

2789
02:03:46,980 --> 02:03:48,440
J'ai essayé de le rembourser

2790
02:03:49,480 --> 02:03:50,280
dans ma ville natale,

2791
02:03:50,780 --> 02:03:52,220
même en enseignant à Tulane,

2792
02:03:52,240 --> 02:03:53,620
ce que je ne fais pas comme une faveur.

2793
02:03:53,820 --> 02:03:55,460
J'en profite pleinement,

2794
02:03:55,940 --> 02:03:57,920
mais c'est comme si, d'accord, je fais partie d'une communauté.

2795
02:03:58,580 --> 02:04:03,260
Et je pense que nous perdons cela en Amérique parce que les gens qui sont seuls le sont parce qu'ils ne le sont pas.

2796
02:04:03,340 --> 02:04:04,220
partie d’une communauté.

2797
02:04:04,660 --> 02:04:06,260
Mais j'ai tous mes lycéens,

2798
02:04:06,640 --> 02:04:07,960
amis, ils sont tous toujours là

2799
02:04:07,960 --> 02:04:08,360
La Nouvelle Orléans.

2800
02:04:08,460 --> 02:04:10,080
J'ai ma famille,

2801
02:04:10,160 --> 02:04:11,420
mais j'ai aussi Tulane,

2802
02:04:11,660 --> 02:04:13,020
institutions de la Nouvelle-Orléans qui

2803
02:04:13,020 --> 02:04:13,940
sont là depuis toujours.

2804
02:04:14,800 --> 02:04:18,380
Et si je peux m'impliquer pour aider le système scolaire de la Nouvelle-Orléans,

2805
02:04:18,760 --> 02:04:21,500
d'aider les programmes d'autonomisation des jeunes,

2806
02:04:22,200 --> 02:04:24,800
d'aider le centre d'innovation de Tulane,

2807
02:04:25,280 --> 02:04:27,200
J'étais même membre de la commission d'urbanisme,

2808
02:04:27,260 --> 02:04:29,000
qui s'inquiète des ordonnances de zonage

2809
02:04:29,020 --> 02:04:30,940
pour les locations de courte durée,

2810
02:04:31,900 --> 02:04:32,680
tu sais, va comprendre.

2811
02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:33,860
Mais c'était comme si, non,

2812
02:04:34,280 --> 02:04:36,580
m'immerger dans ma communauté parce que ma communauté

2813
02:04:37,780 --> 02:04:39,900
c'était tellement incroyablement bon

2814
02:04:40,260 --> 02:04:42,860
pour me permettre de devenir qui je suis devenu

2815
02:04:42,890 --> 02:04:49,120
et a des problèmes année après année, ouragan après ouragan,

2816
02:04:49,740 --> 02:04:53,220
en veillant à ce que chaque nouvelle génération puisse être créative.

2817
02:04:53,760 --> 02:04:57,880
Et c'est une ville de créativité, du jazz à la gastronomie en passant par l'architecture.

2818
02:04:58,460 --> 02:05:00,160
Alors quand j'y pense,

2819
02:05:00,700 --> 02:05:01,760
Je ne dirai pas héritage,

2820
02:05:01,860 --> 02:05:04,100
mais que vais-je faire pour payer au suivant ?

2821
02:05:04,180 --> 02:05:04,820
Lequel est

2822
02:05:05,420 --> 02:05:07,680
une manière de niveau inférieur de dire l’héritage.

2823
02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:11,920
Je donne au suivant en retournant à l'endroit où j'ai commencé

2824
02:05:11,920 --> 02:05:13,580
et j'essaie de le savoir pour la première fois.

2825
02:05:15,680 --> 02:05:18,880
C'était une arnaque d'une ligne TS Eliot.

2826
02:05:19,120 --> 02:05:21,160
Je ne veux pas que tu penses que j'ai pensé à celui-là.

2827
02:05:22,640 --> 02:05:24,140
Citez toujours vos sources,

2828
02:05:24,140 --> 02:05:24,800
Je l'apprécie.

2829
02:05:24,820 --> 02:05:29,040
TS Eliot, si jamais tu as besoin de comprendre, les quatre quatuors,

2830
02:05:29,380 --> 02:05:30,700
cette partie à la fin,

2831
02:05:30,940 --> 02:05:32,960
c'est-à-dire que nous ne cesserons pas l'exploration.

2832
02:05:33,540 --> 02:05:36,060
Et la fin de toutes nos explorations sera de

2833
02:05:36,060 --> 02:05:39,120
revenir à l'endroit où nous avons commencé et le connaître pour la première fois

2834
02:05:39,940 --> 02:05:42,420
à travers la porte inconnue mais à moitié mémorisée.

2835
02:05:42,660 --> 02:05:43,580
C'est juste magnifique.

2836
02:05:44,040 --> 02:05:47,460
Et cela a été une inspiration pour

2837
02:05:49,180 --> 02:05:52,060
que fais-tu dedans,

2838
02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:54,720
Je suppose que si c'est une pièce de Shakespeare,

2839
02:05:54,880 --> 02:05:56,000
vous appelleriez cela l'acte cinq.

2840
02:05:57,220 --> 02:05:59,920
Eh bien, tu retournes à l'endroit où tu es venu et

2841
02:06:01,080 --> 02:06:03,960
ne reste pas là à t'inquiéter de l'héritage,

2842
02:06:04,160 --> 02:06:05,320
mais tu resteras assis là à dire,

2843
02:06:05,620 --> 02:06:06,340
comment puis-je m'assurer

2844
02:06:06,340 --> 02:06:07,680
que quelqu'un d'autre peut avoir

2845
02:06:09,240 --> 02:06:10,120
un magique

2846
02:06:10,720 --> 02:06:12,540
trajectoire commençant à la Nouvelle-Orléans ?

2847
02:06:14,120 --> 02:06:17,500
Eh bien, pour moi, tu es l'un des plus grands conteurs de tous les temps.

2848
02:06:18,000 --> 02:06:19,320
J'ai été un grand fan.

2849
02:06:19,380 --> 02:06:21,340
Ce n'est certainement pas vrai, mais c'est si gentil de votre part.

2850
02:06:21,400 --> 02:06:23,380
Vous voyez, vous pouvez être... L'interrompre brutalement.

2851
02:06:26,870 --> 02:06:28,760
Je pense

2852
02:06:29,640 --> 02:06:31,000
probablement Ben Franklin,

2853
02:06:32,080 --> 02:06:33,120
donc pendant je ne sais combien d'années,

2854
02:06:33,160 --> 02:06:36,500
15 ans, Einstein jusqu'à aujourd'hui,

2855
02:06:36,820 --> 02:06:38,320
Je suis juste un grand fan de toi.

2856
02:06:38,460 --> 02:06:41,270
Et tu es une des personnes à qui je pensais sûrement

2857
02:06:41,880 --> 02:06:44,940
ne s'abaisserait pas pour paraître

2858
02:06:44,940 --> 02:06:46,840
et ayez une conversation avec moi.

2859
02:06:47,780 --> 02:06:49,820
Et c'est juste un cadeau géant pour moi.

2860
02:06:49,840 --> 02:06:53,620
Hé, j'ai pris l'avion pour Austin pour ça parce que je suis un grand fan

2861
02:06:54,240 --> 02:06:55,460
et surtout un grand fan

2862
02:06:55,460 --> 02:06:57,240
parce que tu prends les gens au sérieux

2863
02:06:57,820 --> 02:06:58,260
et tu t'en soucies.

2864
02:06:59,040 --> 02:07:00,300
Merci mille fois.

2865
02:07:00,500 --> 02:07:03,180
Merci de me respecter et de m'inspirer simplement

2866
02:07:03,180 --> 02:07:04,720
des millions de personnes avec vos histoires.

2867
02:07:04,980 --> 02:07:07,400
Encore une fois, une narration incroyable, un humain incroyable.

2868
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:09,200
Et merci d'avoir parlé aujourd'hui.

2869
02:07:09,480 --> 02:07:10,020
Merci, Alex.

2870
02:07:11,160 --> 02:07:14,900
Merci d'avoir écouté cette conversation avec Walter Isaacson pour soutenir ce podcast.

2871
02:07:15,200 --> 02:07:17,520
Veuillez consulter nos sponsors dans la description.

2872
02:07:18,060 --> 02:07:20,060
Et maintenant laisse-moi te laisser avec

2873
02:07:20,060 --> 02:07:21,800
une de mes citations préférées de Carl Jung.

2874
02:07:23,020 --> 02:07:24,080
Les gens feront n'importe quoi,

2875
02:07:24,940 --> 02:07:26,080
aussi absurde soit-il,

2876
02:07:26,540 --> 02:07:28,680
afin d'éviter d'affronter leur propre âme.

2877
02:07:29,880 --> 02:07:32,740
On ne s'éclaire pas en imaginant des figures de lumière,

2878
02:07:33,560 --> 02:07:36,140
mais en rendant les ténèbres conscientes.

2879
02:07:37,280 --> 02:07:38,720
Merci de votre écoute et de votre espoir

2880
02:07:38,820 --> 02:07:40,240
à la prochaine fois.

Portuguese transcription text:

WALTER: Espero que com meus livros eu esteja dizendo que este não é um guia prático, mas é alguém com quem você pode caminhar. Você pode ver Einstein crescendo como judeu na Alemanha. Você pode ver Jennifer Doudna crescendo como uma forasteira ou Leonardo da Vinci ou Elon Musk na violenta África do Sul com um pai psicologicamente difícil. E saindo do trem quando ele vai ao show anti-apartheid com seu irmão e há um homem com uma faca enfiada na cabeça e eles entram na poça de sangue e isso está grudado em suas almas. Isso causa cicatrizes que duram o resto da vida. E a questão não é como evitar cicatrizes? É como você lida com isso?

LEX: A seguir, uma conversa com Walter Isaacson, um dos maiores escritores de biografias de todos os tempos. Tendo escrito livros incríveis sobre Albert Einstein, Steve Jobs, Leonardo da Vinci, Jennifer Doudna, Benjamin Franklin, Henry Kissinger e agora um novo sobre Elon Musk. Conversamos por horas dentro e fora do microfone. Tenho certeza que conversaremos muitas outras vezes. Walter é um escritor, pensador, observador e ser humano verdadeiramente especial. Eu recomendo fortemente que as pessoas leiam seu novo livro sobre Elon. Tenho a certeza de que haverá controvérsia a curto prazo, mas a longo prazo penso que inspirará milhões de jovens, especialmente com infâncias difíceis, com dificuldades no seu ambiente ou nas suas próprias mentes, a enfrentarem os problemas mais difíceis da sua vida. o mundo e construir soluções para esses problemas, por mais impossíveis que sejam as probabilidades. Nesta conversa, Walter e eu cobrimos todos os seus livros e usamos histórias pessoais deles para falar sobre os princípios mais amplos da luta pela grandeza na ciência, na tecnologia, na engenharia, na arte, na política e na vida. Há muitas coisas no novo livro de Elon que achei que deveriam ser guardadas para quando eu falar diretamente com Elon novamente neste podcast, que será em breve. Talvez também seja bom mencionar aqui que minhas amizades com Elon, nem qualquer outra influência como dinheiro, acesso, fama, poder jamais resultarão no sacrifício de minha integridade, jamais. Gosto de celebrar o que há de bom nas pessoas, de ter empatia e de compreender, mas também gosto de denunciar as besteiras das pessoas com respeito e compaixão. Se eu falhar, falho por falta de habilidade, não por falta de integridade. Vou trabalhar duro para melhorar. Este é o podcast de Lex Friedman. Para apoiá-lo, confira nossos patrocinadores na descrição. E agora, queridos amigos, aqui está Walter Isaacson. Qual é o papel de uma infância difícil na vida de grandes homens e mulheres, de grandes mentes? Isso é um requisito? É um catalisador ou é apenas uma simples coincidência do destino?

WALTER: Bem, não é um requisito. Algumas pessoas com infâncias felizes se saem muito bem, mas certamente é verdade que muitas pessoas realmente motivadas são motivadas porque estão controlando os demônios de sua infância. Até mesmo a frase de Barack Obama em suas memórias, que é: acho que todo homem de sucesso está tentando corresponder às expectativas de seu pai ou superando os pecados de seu pai. E para Elon, isso é especialmente verdade porque ele teve uma infância violenta e difícil e um pai muito problemático psicologicamente. Ele tem aqueles demônios dançando em sua cabeça e, ao controlá-los, é parte da razão pela qual ele faz coisas mais arriscadas, mais aventureiras e mais selvagens do que talvez eu jamais faria.

LEX: Eu escrevi isso Elon falou sobre seu pai e que às vezes parecia uma tortura mental a interação com ele durante sua infância. Você pode descrever algumas das coisas que aprendeu?

WALTER: Sim, bem, Elon e Kimball me contariam isso, por exemplo, quando Elon sofreu bullying no parquinho e um dia foi empurrado para baixo em um concreto passos e teve o rosto tão esmurrado que Kimball disse: Eu realmente não consegui reconhecê-lo. Quero dizer, ele ficou no hospital por quase uma semana. Mas quando ele voltou para casa, Elon teve que ficar na frente de seu pai e seu pai o repreendeu por mais de uma hora e disse que ele era estúpido e ficou do lado da pessoa que havia batido nele.

LEX: Esse é provavelmente um dos eventos mais traumáticos da vida de Elon.

WALTER: Sim. E há também a veld school, que é uma espécie de campo paramilitar para onde eram enviados jovens rapazes sul-africanos. E a certa altura, ele era magro. Ele é muito ruim em captar sinais sociais e emocionais. Ele fala sobre ser Asperger. E então ele fica traumatizado em um acampamento como esse. Mas na segunda vez que ele foi, ele ficou maior. Ele atingiu quase um metro e oitenta e aprendeu um pouco de judô. E ele percebeu que se fosse espancado, isso poderia machucá-lo, mas ele simplesmente daria um soco no nariz da pessoa com a maior força possível. Portanto, essa sensação de sempre revidar também está enraizada em Elon. Passei muito tempo conversando com Errol Musk, seu pai.Elon não fala mais com Errol Musk, seu pai, nem Kimball. Já se passaram anos. E Errol nem tem o e-mail de Elon. Muitas vezes, Errol me envia e-mails. EErrol tinha uma daquelas personalidades de Jekyll e Hyde. Ele era uma grande mente da engenharia e especialmente da ciência dos materiais. Eu sabia como construir um acampamento selvagem na África do Sul usando mica e como ela não conduziria o calor. Mas ele também entraria nesses períodos sombrios em que seria apenas psicologicamente abusivo. E, claro, May Musk me disse, disse sua mãe, que se divorciou de Errol, o perigo para Elon é que ele se torne seu pai. E de vez em quando você esteve muito com ele, Lex, e o conhece bem. Ele até falará com você sobre os demônios, sobre Diablo dançando em sua cabeça. Quero dizer, ele entende, ele é autoconsciente, mas você provavelmente já o viu em momentos em que aqueles demônios assumem o controle e ele fica muito sombrio e quieto. E Grimes diz: Posso dizer com um ou dois minutos de antecedência quando o modo demoníaco está prestes a acontecer. E ele ficará um pouco sombrio. Estive aqui em Austin uma vez jantando com um grupo. E você poderia dizer que de repente algo o havia desencadeado e ele iria escurecer. Já assisti em reuniões onde alguém diria: não podemos fazer essa peça por menos de US$ 200 ou não, isso está errado. E ele vai repreendê-los. E então ele sai dessa. Como você também sabe disso, a grande foto onde de repente ele está mostrando uma esquete do Monty Python em seu telefone e está brincando sobre as coisas. Então eu acho que saindo da infância, havia muitas facetas, talvez até muitas personalidades, o modo de engenharia, o modo bobo, o modo carismático, o modo visionário, mas também o demônio no modo sombrio.

LEX: Uma citação que você citou sobre Elon realmente me chamou a atenção. Esqueci de quem era, mas dentro do homem, ele ainda está lá quando criança, a criança parada na frente de seu pai.

WALTER: Essa era Tallulah, sua segunda esposa. E ela é ótima. Ela é uma atriz inglesa. Eles foram casados duas vezes, na verdade. E Tallulah disse que é só ele desde a infância. Ele é um viciado em drama. Kimball também diz isso. E eu perguntei por quê. E Tallulah disse para ele que o amor e a família estão associados a esses tormentos psicológicos. E de muitas maneiras, ele canalizará. Quero dizer, Tallulah estaria com ele em 2008, quando a empresa estivesse falindo ou seja lá o que fosse, ou mais tarde. E ele ficaria tão estressado que vomitaria. E então ele canalizava coisas que seu pai havia dito, usava frases que seu pai havia dito para ele. E então ela me disse, no fundo do homem está esse filho ainda parado na frente de seu pai.

LEX: Até que ponto isso é verdade para muitos de nós, você acha?

WALTER: Acho que é verdade, mas de muitas maneiras diferentes. Direi algo pessoal, que fui abençoado e talvez seja uma desvantagem também, o fato de ter tido o melhor pai e mãe que você poderia imaginar. Eles eram as pessoas mais gentis que você gostaria de conhecer. Cresci em um lugar mágico em Nova Orleans. Meu pai era engenheiro, engenheiro elétrico. E ele sempre foi gentil. Talvez eu não seja tão motivado ou tão louco. Eu não tenho que provar coisas. Então posso escrever sobre Elon Musk. Posso escrever sobre Einstein ou Steve Jobs ou Leonardo da Vinci, que como vocês sabem, foi totalmente dilacerado por demônios e passou por diversas situações difíceis na infância, nem mesmo legitimadas pelo pai. Então, às vezes, aqueles de nós que têm a sorte de ter uma infância realmente gentil e doce, crescemos com menos demônios, mas crescemos com menos impulsos e acabamos talvez sendo Boswell e não sendo o Dr. Acabamos sendo o observador e não o executor. E por isso eu sempre respeito aqueles que estão na arena.

LEX: Você não se vê como um homem na arena.

WALTER: Tive uma carreira gentil e doce e tenho que cobrir pessoas realmente interessantes, mas nunca disparei um foguete que um dia pudesse chegar a Marte. Nunca nos coloquei no ar de veículos elétricos. Nunca fiquei acordado a noite toda no chão de fábrica. Não tenho exatamente isso, nem o impulso nem o vício do risco. Quero dizer, Elon é viciado em risco. Ele é viciado em aventura. Eu, se vejo algo que é arriscado, fico um tempo calculando, ok, aqui de cabeça para baixo. Mas essa é outra razão pela qual pessoas como Elon Musk realizam tarefas e pessoas como eu escrevem sobre Elon Musk.

LEX: Outro aspecto disso, dada uma infância difícil, seja Elon ou DaVinci, me pergunto se há alguma sabedoria, quase alguns conselhos que você pode desenhar, que você pode dar a pessoas com infâncias difíceis.

WALTER: Acho que todos nós temos demônios, mesmo aqueles de nós que cresceram em uma parte mágica de Nova Orleans com pais queridos. Todos nós temos demônios. A primeira regra na vida é controlar seus demônios. Saiba que você é ambicioso ou não ambicioso, ou é preguiçoso ou algo assim. Leonardo DaVinci sabia que era um procrastinador. Acho que é útil saber o que se come, saber aproveitar isso.Saiba também no que você é bom. Vou tomar Musk como outro exemplo. Sou um pouco mais parecido com Kimball Musk do que com Elon. Talvez eu tenha superado o gene da empatia. O que faz aquilosignificar? Bem, isso significa que eu estava bem quando dirigi a Time Magazine. Era um grupo de cerca de 150 pessoas na redação e eu conhecia todos eles e nos divertimos muito. Quando fui para a CNN, não era muito bom em ser gerente ou executivo de uma organização. Eu me importava um pouco demais para que as pessoas não ficassem irritadas ou bravas comigo. Elon disse isso sobre John McNeil, por exemplo, que foi presidente da Tesla. Está no livro. Conversei muito com John McNeil e ele disse: Elon simplesmente demitiria pessoas. Ele é realmente duro com as pessoas. Ele não tinha empatia pelas pessoas à sua frente. Elon diz, sim, está certo. John McNeil não podia demitir pessoas. Ele se preocupava mais em agradar as pessoas à sua frente do que em agradar todo o empreendimento ou fazer as coisas. Ser superdotado com o desejo de agradar as pessoas pode torná-lo um gerente menos duro. Isso não significa que não existam pessoas excelentes que sejam superdotadas. Ben Franklin, dotado do desejo de agradar as pessoas. A pior crítica feita por John Adams e outros a ele foi que ele era insinuante, o que significava que estava sempre tentando fazer com que as pessoas gostassem dele. Mas isso acabou por ser uma coisa boa quando eles não conseguem resolver a questão do grande estado, do pequeno estado na Convenção Constitucional, quando eles não conseguem entender o Tratado de Paris, seja ele qual for, ele une as pessoas e isso é seu superpoder. Então, voltando às lições que você pediu, a primeira foi controlar seus demônios. A segunda é conhecer seus pontos fortes e seu superpoder. Meu superpoder definitivamente não é ser um gerente durão. Depois de dirigir a CNN por um tempo, eu disse, ok, provei que não gosto muito disso ou não sei fazer isso bem. Tenho outros talentos? Sim, acho que tenho talento para observar as pessoas bem de perto, para escrever sobre isso de maneira direta, mas espero um estilo narrativo interessante. Isso é um poder. É totalmente diferente de administrar uma organização. Demorei três anos dirigindo a CNN para perceber que não fui talhado para ser um executivo em situações realmente intensas. Elon Musk é talhado para ser um executivo em situações altamente intensas, tanto que quando as coisas ficam menos intensas, quando eles realmente estão fabricando carros e foguetes suficientes subindo e pousando, ele pensa em outra coisa para poder subir e ter mais intensidade . Ele é viciado em intensidade e esse é o seu superpoder, que é muito maior do que o superpoder de ser um bom observador.

LEX: Mas acho que também para desenvolver isso, não é apenas o vício em risco e drama. Há sempre uma grande missão acima disso. Então, eu diria que é uma empatia para com as pessoas no quadro geral.

WALTER: É uma empatia para com a humanidade, mais do que a empatia para com os três ou quatro humanos que podem estar sentados na sala de conferências com você. E isso é um grande negócio. Você vê isso em muitas pessoas. Você vê, Bill Gates, Larry Summers, Elon Musk. Eles sempre tiveram empatia por esses grandes objetivos da humanidade. E às vezes eles podem não ter noção das emoções das pessoas à sua frente ou às vezes ser insensíveis. Musk, como você disse, é movido pela missão mais do que qualquer pessoa que já vi. E não é apenas missão, são como missões cósmicas, o que significa que ele tem três missões realmente grandes. Uma delas é fazer dos humanos uma civilização espacial, torná-los multiplanetários ou levar-nos a Marte. O número dois é trazer-nos para a era da energia sustentável, para nos trazer para a era dos veículos eléctricos, dos telhados solares e das baterias. E a terceira é garantir que a inteligência artificial seja segura e esteja alinhada com os valores humanos. E de vez em quando eu conversava com ele e falávamos sobre satélites Starlink ou algo assim. Ou ele estaria empurrando as pessoas à sua frente na SpaceX e dizendo: se você fizer isso, nunca chegaremos a Marte durante a nossa vida. E então ele daria a palestra sobre como era importante para a consciência humana chegar a Marte durante nossa vida. E estou pensando, ok, esta é a conversa estimulante de alguém tentando inspirar uma equipe ou talvez seja um tipo de pontificação que você faz em um podcast. Mas na 20ª vez que o observei, percebi, ok, eu acredito. Na verdade, ele é motivado por isso.

LEX: Ele está frustrado e irritado porque, por causa dessa pequena decisão de engenharia em particular, a grande missão não será cumprida. Não é uma conversa estimulante. É uma frustração literal.

WALTER: E impaciência, uma frustração. E provavelmente a coisa mais profundamente arraigada nele é sua missão. A certa altura, ele brincou comigo sobre o quanto adorava ler quadrinhos quando criança. E ele disse, todas as pessoas nos quadrinhos estão tentando salvar o mundo, mas estão vestindo cuecas por fora e parecem ridículas. E então ele fez uma pausa e disse, mas eles estão tentando salvar o mundo.E seja o Starlink na Ucrânia, a Starship indo para Marte ou tentando obter um novo Tesla global, acho que ele tem essa noção épica do papel que desempenhará ao ajudar a humanidade em grandes coisas. E gostoos personagens dos quadrinhos, às vezes é ridículo, mas às vezes também é verdade.

LEX: Quando eu estava lendo esta parte do livro, pensei em todos os jovens que estão lutando dessa forma . E acho que muitas pessoas são diferentes, quer cresçam sem pai, quer cresçam com abusos físicos, emocionais, mentais ou demônios de qualquer tipo, como você falou. E é realmente doloroso de ler, mas também muito inspirador, que se você caminhar lado a lado com esses demônios, se você não deixar essa dor te quebrar ou de alguma forma canalizá-la, se você pode colocar desta forma, você você pode alcançar, você pode fazer grandes coisas neste mundo.

WALTER: Bem, essa é uma visão épica do motivo pelo qual escrevemos biografias, o que é mais épico do que eu imaginava. Então eu agradeço porque de certa forma o que você está tentando fazer é dizer, ok, quero dizer, Leonardo, você fala sobre ser um desajustado, ele nasceu ilegítimo na vila de Vinci e é gay e é canhoto e ele está distraído e seu pai não o legitima. E então ele vai para a cidade de Florença e se torna o maior artista e engenheiro daquela parte da Renascença. Espero que este livro inspire. Jennifer Doudna, a pioneira da edição genética que ajuda a descobrir o CRISPR, ferramenta de edição genética, que está no meu livro, The Code Breaker, ela cresceu se sentindo uma desajustada no Havaí, em uma vila polinésia sendo a única pessoa branca e também tentando viver à altura um pai que a empurrou. Então, se as pessoas podem ler os livros, e eu deveria ter dito sobre Jennifer Doudna, o que quero dizer é que seu orientador escolar disse a ela: não, meninas não fazem ciências. Você sabe, a ciência não é para meninas. Você não vai fazer matemática ou ciências. E isso a leva a dizer, tudo bem, vou fazer matemática e ciências.

LEX: Só para interromper bem rápido, mas Jennifer Doudna, você escreveu um livro incrível sobre ela, Nobel Vencedor do prêmio, desenvolvedor do CRISPR, simplesmente incrível, um dos grandes cientistas do século 21.

WALTER: Certo. E estou falando de quando Jennifer Doudna era jovem e ela se sentia muito, muito deslocada, como você e eu e muitas pessoas, quando se sentem assim, leem livros, ficam enrolados com o livro . Então o pai dela deixa cair em sua cama um livro chamado The Double Helix, o livro de James Watson sobre a descoberta da estrutura do DNA feita por ele, Rosalind Franklin e Francis Crick. E ela percebe, oh meu Deus, as meninas podem se tornar cientistas. Meu orientador escolar está errado. Então eu acho que livros, como ela leu este livro, e mesmo que seja uma história em quadrinhos, como Elon Musk leu, os livros às vezes podem inspirar você. E cada um dos meus livros é sobre pessoas que são totalmente inovadoras, que não eram apenas inteligentes, porque nenhum de nós será capaz de se igualar a Einstein e ao poder de processamento mental. Mas podemos ser tão curiosos quanto ele e criativos e pensar fora da caixa como ele fez, ou como disse Steve Jobs, pensar diferente. E espero que com meus livros eu esteja dizendo que este não é um guia prático, mas é alguém com quem você pode caminhar. Você pode ver Einstein crescendo como judeu na Alemanha. Você pode ver Jennifer Doudna crescendo como uma forasteira ou Leonardo da Vinci ou Elon Musk na violenta África do Sul com um pai psicologicamente difícil. E saindo do trem quando ele vai ao show anti-apartheid com seu irmão, e há um homem com uma faca enfiada na cabeça, e eles entram na poça de sangue e isso está grudado em suas almas. Isso causa cicatrizes que duram o resto da vida. E a questão não é como evitar cicatrizes? É como você lida com isso?

LEX: Einstein também, um dos meus, e é difícil escolher minha biografia favorita, mas Einstein, quero dizer, você realmente pinta um retrato de outro, eu não Não quero chamá-lo de desajustado, mas de uma pessoa que não tem necessariamente uma trajetória padrão de sucesso na vida. Então isso é extremamente inspirador. Não sei exatamente que pergunta fazer. Há um milhão.

WALTER: Bem, vou falar sobre o desajustado por um segundo, porque falamos sobre Leonardo ser assim. Einstein é judeu na Alemanha num momento em que tudo começa a ficar difícil. Ele é lento em aprender a falar e é um pensador visual. Então ele está sempre sonhando acordado e imaginando coisas. Na primeira vez ele se inscreve na Politécnica de Zurique, porque foge do sistema educacional alemão porque é muito aprendizado mecânico. Ele é rejeitado pela Polytech de Zurique. Agora é a segunda melhor escola de Zurique e estão rejeitando Einstein. Tentei encontrar, mas não consegui, o nome do conselheiro de admissões da Politécnica de Zurique. Como você rejeitou Einstein. E então ele não termina na metade superior da turma. E quando ele o faz e vai para a pós-graduação, eles não aceitam sua dissertação.Então ele não consegue um emprego. Ele não está ensinando isso. Ele até tenta cerca de 14 escolas secundárias e ginásios diferentes para conseguir um emprego e eles não o aceitam. Então ele é uma terceira classeexaminador no escritório de patentes suíço em 1905. Terceira classe porque rejeitaram sua tese de doutorado. E então ele não pode ser de segunda nem de primeira porque não tem doutorado. E ainda assim ele está sentado no banco do escritório de patentes em 1905 e escreve três artigos que transformam totalmente a ciência. E se você está pensando em ser mal compreendido ou desvalorizado em 1906, ele ainda é uma patente de terceira classe. Em 1907, ele ainda é. Demorou até 1909 para que as pessoas percebessem que esta noção da teoria da relatividade poderia estar correta e poderia derrubar toda a física newtoniana.

LEX: Como é possível que três dos maiores artigos da história da ciência ser escrito em um ano por esta única pessoa? Você extrai alguns insights, sabedoria?

WALTER: Além disso, ele, fora do trabalho diário, é examinador de patentes. E há realmente três artigos, mas há também um adendo porque uma vez que você descobre a teoria quântica e então descobre a relatividade e entende as equações de Maxwell e a velocidade da luz, ele faz um pequeno adendo. Essa é a equação mais famosa de toda a física, que é E igual a MC ao quadrado. Então é um ano muito bom. Em parte começa porque ele é um pensador visual. E acho que foi útil que ele estivesse no escritório de patentes, em vez de ser o acólito de algum professor da academia onde deveria seguir as regras. E então o escritório de patentes disse fazer dispositivos para sincronizar relógios porque os suíços acabaram de adotar fusos horários padrão e os suíços, como vocês sabem, tendem a ser bastante suíços. Eles se importam se bater a hora em Basileia, deve fazer o mesmo e queimar exatamente no final. Então você tem que enviar um sinal luminoso entre dois relógios distantes. E ele está visualizando como seria andar ao lado de um feixe de luz. Ele diz, bem, se você alcançá-lo, se você for quase tão rápido, ele parecerá parado. Mas as equações de Maxwell não permitem isso. E ele disse, ele está fazendo minha palma suar de tanto que eu estava preocupado. E então ele finalmente descobriu, porque está olhando para esses dispositivos para sincronizar relógios, que se você estiver viajando muito, muito rápido, o que parece síncrono ou sincronizado para você é diferente do que para alguém viajando muito rápido na outra direção. E ele dá o salto mental daquela vez que a velocidade da luz é sempre constante, mas o tempo é relativo dependendo do seu estado de movimento. Então foi esse tipo de pensamento inovador, esses saltos que fizeram de 1905 o seu ano milagroso. O mesmo acontece com Musk, quero dizer, depois da General Motors e da Ford, todo mundo desiste dos veículos elétricos para apenas dizer: eu sei como teremos um caminho para mudar toda a trajetória do mundo para a era dos veículos elétricos. E então, quando ele voltou da Rússia, onde tentou comprar um pequeno foguete para poder enviar uma estufa experimental para Marte, e eles estavam zombando deles e até cuspiram neles em determinado momento de um almoço bêbado. Isso é muito fortuito porque na volta para casa no avião, no voo da Delta Airlines, ele faz os cálculos de quantos materiais, quanto de metal, quanto de combustível, quanto realmente custaria. E então ele está visualizando coisas que outras pessoas diriam que são impossíveis. É o que os amigos de Steve Jobs chamavam de campo de distorção da realidade. E isso deixou as pessoas loucas. Isso os deixou loucos, mas também os levou a fazer coisas que achavam que não seriam capazes de fazer.

LEX: Você disse pensamento visual. Eu me pergunto se você já viu paralelos entre os diferentes estilos e tipos de pensamento que operam nas mentes dessas pessoas. Então, há paralelos que você vê entre Elon, Steve Jobs, Einstein, Da Vinci, especificamente na forma como eles pensam?

WALTER: Acho que todos eles eram pensadores visuais, talvez vindo de pequenas deficiências quando crianças, o que significa que Leonardo era canhoto e um pouco dislético, eu acho. E certamente Einstein tinha callia. Ele repetia coisas. Ele demorou a aprender a falar. Então acho que visualizar ajuda muito. E com Musk, vejo isso o tempo todo quando estou andando pelas linhas da fábrica com ele ou no desenvolvimento de produtos, onde ele olha, digamos, o escudo térmico sob o motor Raptor de um propulsor da Starship. E ele dirá: por que tem que ser assim? Não poderíamos apará-lo desta forma? Ou até mesmo se livrar dessa parte. E ele pode visualizar a ciência material. Há pequenas anedotas no meu livro, mas a certa altura ele está na linha Tesla e eles estão tentando conseguir 5.000 carros por semana em 2018. É uma situação de vida ou morte. E ele está olhando para as máquinas que estão aparafusando algo no chassi. E Lars Moravey, um de seus grandes tenentes, chega e eles têm que convocá-lo. E ele diz, por que há seis parafusos aqui? E Lars e outros explicaram, bem, para os testes de colisão ou qualquer outra coisa, a pressão seria desta forma, então você tem que fazer isso.E eles eram blá, blá, blá, blá, blá. E ele disse, não. Se você visualizar, você verá que se houver um acidente, a força iriadesta forma e daquela maneira. E isso pode ser feito com quatro parafusos. Agora isso parece arriscado. E eles vão testar e projetar, mas acaba dando certo. Eu sei que isso parece insignificante, mas eu poderia lhe dar 500 deles, onde em um determinado dia ele está visualizando a física de um problema de engenharia ou manufatura. Isso parece muito mundano. Mas para mim, se você disser o que o torna especial, há uma coisa voltada para a missão. Eu te dou vários motivos, mas um dos motivos é que ele se preocupa não só com o design do produto, mas com a visualização da fabricação do produto, da máquina que faz a máquina. E foi isso que não conseguimos fazer na América nos últimos 40 anos. Terceirizamos muita fabricação. Não acho que você possa ser um bom inovador se não souber como fazer o que está projetando. E é por isso que Musk coloca sua mesa de designer bem ao lado das linhas de montagem nas fábricas para que eles tenham que visualizar o que desenharam à medida que se torna o objeto físico.

LEX: Então, entender tudo, desde a física até o fim até o software, é como se fosse de ponta a ponta.

WALTER: Bem, ter um controle de ponta a ponta é importante, certamente com Steve Jobs. Estou olhando meu iPhone aqui. É um grande negócio. Esse hardware só funciona com software da Apple e, por um tempo, com a loja iTunes. Então ele tem uma ponta a ponta que faz com que pareça um jardim Zen em Kyoto, com uma curadoria muito cuidadosa, mas uma coisa linda. Para Musk, quando esteve pela primeira vez na Tesla e antes de ser CEO, quando era apenas o presidente executivo e basicamente o financeiro que a financiava, eles estavam terceirizando tudo. Eles estavam fabricando as baterias no Japão e a bateria estaria em alguma churrascaria na Tailândia e seria enviada para a fábrica da Lotus na Inglaterra para ser colocada em um chassi do Lotus Elise e depois mencionada. Isso foi um pesadelo. Você não tinha controle de ponta a ponta do processo de fabricação. Então ele vai para o outro extremo. Ele comprou da Toyota uma fábrica em Fremont e quer fazer tudo internamente, o software internamente, a pintura internamente, a bateria. Ele fabrica suas próprias baterias. E acho que o controle de ponta a ponta faz parte da personalidade dele. Mas também permitiria que a Tesla fosse inovadora.

LEX: Sim, consegui ver e entender em detalhes um exemplo disso, que é o desenvolvimento do cérebro do carro no piloto automático, passando do olho móvel à construção interna do sistema de piloto automático, basicamente à eliminação de todos os sensores que não são ricos em dados para torná-lo compatível com a IA, meio que dizendo que podemos fazer tudo com visão. E como você disse, removendo alguns parafusos. Então, às vezes são coisas pequenas, mas às vezes são coisas realmente grandes, como se livrar do radar.

WALTER: Bem, apenas a visão se livrar do radar é enorme e todos são contra. Todo mundo. E isso ainda está lutando um pouco. Eles ainda estão tentando criar uma próxima geração, algum tipo de radar, mas isso volta aos primeiros princípios. Estamos falando sobre visualização. Bem, ele começa com os primeiros princípios e os primeiros princípios da física envolvem coisas como o que os humanos dirigem apenas com informações visuais. Eles não têm radar. Eles não têm LIDAR. Eles não têm sonar. E, portanto, não havia nenhuma razão nas leis da física que fizesse com que apenas a visão não tivesse sucesso na criação de direção autônoma. Agora isso se torna um artigo de fé para ele e ele recebe muitas críticas. E, a propósito, ele não teve muito sucesso em cumprir seus prazos para dirigir sozinho. Ele é otimista demais, mas foi esse o primeiro princípio de se livrar de coisas desnecessárias. Agora você pensaria em LIDAR, por que não usá-lo? Tipo, por que não usar uma paixão? É como, sim, só podemos fazer coisas com a visão, mas quando olho para as estrelas à noite, também uso um telescópio. Bem, você poderia usar o LIDAR, mas não pode fazer milhões de carros dessa forma em grande escala. A certa altura, você tem que torná-lo não apenas um bom produto, mas um produto que vá em escala. E você não pode fazer isso com base em mapas como o Google Maps, porque nunca será possível dirigir de Nova Orleans a Slidell, onde eu quero ir quando estiver muito quente em Nova Orleans. Tomemos, por exemplo, autocondução total. Ele está obcecado com o que chama de táxi robótico. Vamos construir o carro da próxima geração sem volante, sem pedais, porque será totalmente autônomo. Você acabou de invocá-lo. Você não precisará dirigi-lo. Bem, repetidamente, todas essas pessoas de quem falei, Lars Morave e Drew Baglino e outros, estão dizendo, ok, tudo bem, isso parece muito bom, mas ainda não aconteceu. Precisamos construir um carro global de mercado de massa de US$ 25 mil que seja normal com volante. E sim, ele finalmente se virou há alguns meses e disse, vamos lá.E então ele começa a se concentrar em como vai funcionar a linha de montagem? Como vamos fazer isso e torná-lo a mesma plataforma do táxi robótico para que você possa ter a mesma montagem. Da mesma forma, para uma autonomia total, eles estavam fazendo isso codificando centenas demilhares de linhas de código que diriam coisas como, se você vir um sinal vermelho, pare. Se houver uma luz piscando, se houver duas linhas amarelas, faça isso. Se houver uma ciclovia, faça isso. Se houver uma faixa de pedestres, faça isso. Bem, isso é realmente difícil de fazer. Naly está fazendo isso apenas por meio de inteligência artificial e aprendizado de máquina. O FSD12 será baseado em cerca de um bilhão de frames do Tesla a cada semana de motoristas do Tesla e dizendo: o que aconteceu quando um humano estava nesta situação? O que o humano fez? E vamos escolher apenas os melhores humanos, os motoristas cinco estrelas, os motoristas do Uber, como diz Elon. E então é ele mudando de ideia e indo para os primeiros princípios, mas dizendo, tudo bem, vou até mudar a direção totalmente autônoma. Então isso não é baseado em regras. Torna-se baseado em IA. Assim como o ChatGPT não tenta responder sua pergunta, quem são os cinco melhores papas ou algo assim estudando? O ChatGPT faz isso ingerindo bilhões de textos escritos por pessoas. Isso será IA, mas o mundo real será feito através da ingestão de vídeo.

LEX: Às vezes parece que ele e outros estão construindo coisas neste mundo com sucesso, estão basicamente explorando com confiança um quarto escuro com uma atitude muito confiante. , visão ambiciosa de como realmente é aquela sala. Eles estão apenas caminhando direto para a escuridão. Não há brinquedos dolorosos ou Legos no chão. Eu só vou caminhar. Eu sei exatamente a que distância está a parede. E então, rapidamente dispostos a se ajustar quando se deparam, eles pisam no Lego e seu corpo fica cheio de muita dor. O que quero dizer com isso é que existe esse tipo de evolução que parece acontecer quando você descobre ideias realmente boas ao longo do caminho que lhe permitem girar. Assim como para mim, há alguns anos, quando pudemos ver com Andrei Karpathy, a evolução do software 2.0 do piloto automático, ficou óbvio para mim que não se trata de carro. Trata-se de Optimus, o robô. Se olharmos para trás daqui a cem anos, o carro será lembrado como um carro legal, um ótimo meio de transporte, mas o piloto automático não será o que controlará o carro. Será o que permitirá que os sistemas de IA incorporados entendam o mundo. De forma ampla, esse tipo de abordagem e você meio que tropeça nela. A Tesla será uma empresa automobilística? Será uma empresa de IA? Será uma empresa de robótica? Será uma empresa de robótica doméstica? Será uma empresa de energia? E então você descobre isso lentamente à medida que avança com confiança com uma visão. É interessante observar esse tipo de evolução, desde que seja apoiada por esta confiança.

WALTER: Há algumas coisas que são necessárias para isso. Uma delas é ser aventureiro. Não se entra em um quarto escuro sem uma lanterna e um mapa, a menos que você corra riscos, a menos que seja aventureiro. A segunda é ter ciclos cerebrais iterativos onde você pode processar informações e fazer um ciclo de feedback e fazê-lo funcionar. A terceira, e é isso que falhamos muito em fazer nos Estados Unidos e talvez em todo o mundo, é que quando você assume riscos, você tem que perceber que vai explodir as coisas. Os três primeiros foguetes, os foguetes Falcon que a NASA faz, eles explodem. Até a Starship, três minutos e meio, mas depois explode pela primeira vez. Portanto, acho que a Boeing, a NASA e outros não estão dispostos a entrar no seu quarto escuro sem saber exatamente onde fica a saída e o caminho iluminado para a saída. E as pessoas que criaram a América sempre que vieram, quer o Mayflower fosse refugiados dos nazistas, correram muitos riscos para chegar aqui. E agora penso que temos mais árbitros do que tomadores de risco, mais advogados e reguladores e outros a dizer que não se pode fazer isso, que é demasiado arriscado, do que pessoas dispostas a inovar. E você precisa de ambos. Acho que você também está certo: daqui a 50, 100 anos, o que Musk será mais lembrado, além das viagens espaciais, é a IA do mundo real. Não apenas o robô Optimus, mas o robô Optimus e o carro autônomo, eles são praticamente iguais. Eles estão usando clusters de GPU ou chips dojo ou o que quer que seja para processar dados do mundo real. Todos nós ficamos, e você em seu podcast, bastante entusiasmados com o modelo de linguagem grande, IA generativa de texto preditivo. Tudo bem, especialmente se você quiser bater um papo com seu bot de bate-papo. Mas o Santo Graal é a inteligência artificial geral. E a parte difícil disso é a IA do mundo real. E é aí que o robô Optimus ou full self-drive está, eu acho, muito à frente de qualquer outro.

LEX: Bem, gostei de como você disse bate-papo. Eu diria que, para um dos maiores escritores de todos os tempos, é engraçado que você tenha falado sobre a linguagem e o domínio das línguas apenas como um bate-papo. As pessoas se apaixonaram por algumas palavras. As pessoas entraram em guerra por causa de algumas palavras. Acho que as palavras têm muito poder.Na verdade, é uma questão interessante onde a sabedoria do mundo, a sabedoria da humanidade está nas palavras ou está no visual, está no físico? Eu realmente não... é em matemática. Talvez tudo se reduza à matemática e, no final, esse tipo de discussão sobre o realIA mundial versus linguagem é a mesma coisa, talvez. Tive a chance de sair bastante no metaverso com o Sr. Mark Zuckerberg recentemente e cara, é o realismo lá. O que está por vir no futuro é incrível. Fui escaneado em Pittsburgh por 10 horas. Entrei no metaverso e há uma versão virtual minha e pude sair com essa versão virtual. Você gosta de si mesmo? Bem, eu nunca gostei de mim mesmo, mas era mais fácil gostar daquele outro cara. Isso foi interessante. Ele gosta de você? Ele não parece se importar muito.

WALTER: Essa é a falta de empatia.

LEX: Isso me fez começar a questionar ainda mais do que antes, quão importante é essa realidade física? Porque eu pude ver a mim mesmo e a outras pessoas naquele metaverso, os detalhes do rosto, todas as coisas que você pensa, talvez se você se olhar no espelho sejam imperfeições, todo esse tipo de coisa. Quando eu olhava para mim e para os outros, todas essas coisas eram lindas. Foi real, intenso e assustador porque você pensa, bem, você tem permissão para assassinar pessoas no metaverso? Porque o que você tem permissão para fazer? Porque você pode replicar muitas dessas coisas e começa a questionar quais são as coisas fundamentais que fazem a vida valer a pena aqui como sabemos que são os humanos.

WALTER: Você conversou com Elon sobre a visão dele sobre o que é viver? em uma simulação pode ser e como você descobriria se isso é verdade?

LEX: Sim, há uma constante alegria, mas também uma sensação séria de que tudo isso é um pouco como um jogo.

WALTER: Uma das minhas teorias sobre Elon, uma teoria menor, é que ele leu o Guia do Mochileiro das Galáxias com muita frequência. Como você sabe, há uma cena ali que diz que existe uma teoria sobre o universo de que se alguém descobrir os segredos dos significados do universo, será substituído por um universo ainda mais complexo. Então a próxima linha que Douglas Adams escreve é: há outra teoria de que isso já aconteceu. Não estou tentando entender isso, mas sei que Elon Musk tenta. Há um humor nisso. Há um enorme humor no Guia do Mochileiro. Eu realmente acho que isso ajudou Musk a sair do período mais sombrio para ter a sensação de diversão ao descobrir o que é a vida.

LEX: Eu me pergunto se há um lado menor que poderíamos dizer, apenas tendo conseguido conhecer muito bem o Elon, a bobagem, a vontade de se envolver no absurdo disso tudo e se divertir. O que é aquilo? Isso é apenas uma peculiaridade de personalidade ou é um aspecto fundamental de um ser humano que dirige mais de seis empresas?

WALTER: Bem, é uma válvula de alívio, assim como os videogames e a politopia e Elden Ring, uma válvula de escape para ele. Ele tem um senso de humor explosivo, como você sabe. O estranho é quando ele faz a transição abrupta do modo demônio sombrio e você está na sala de conferências e ele realmente fica chateado com alguma coisa. Não apenas existem vibrações sombrias, mas também palavras sombrias emanando e ele está dizendo, sua demissão será aceita se você morrer, etc. Então algo aparece e ele pega o telefone e mostra uma esquete de Bonnie Pythons como School of Silly Walks ou qualquer que fosse John Cleese. Ele começa a rir de novo e as coisas quebram. É quase como se ele tivesse modos diferentes, a emulação do modo humano, o modo de engenharia, o modo sombrio e demoníaco, e certamente existe o modo bobo e vertiginoso.

LEX: Sim, você realmente abriu o livro de Elon com citações de Elon e de Steve Jobs. Então a citação de Elon é, para qualquer pessoa que eu tenha ofendido, só quero dizer, isso está no SNL, só quero dizer, eu reinventei os carros elétricos e estou enviando pessoas para Marte em um foguete. Você também achou que eu seria um cara tranquilo e normal? E então a citação de Steve Jobs, é claro, é que as pessoas que são loucas o suficiente para pensar que podem mudar o mundo são aquelas que o fazem. Então, qual você acha que é o papel da velha loucura e do gênio? Qual você acha que é o papel do louco nisso?

WALTER: Bem, em primeiro lugar, vamos estipular que Musk às vezes é louco. Quero dizer, e então vamos descobrir, e tento fazer isso através da narrativa, não através de hifilismo e pregação, onde essa loucura funciona. Conte-me uma história, conte-me uma anedota, diga-me onde ele está louco. E o exemplo quase final, IA, mas ele atirando na Starship pela primeira vez, entre uma contagem regressiva abortada e o tiroteio, ele vai a Miami para uma conferência de vendas de anúncios e conhece Linda Iaccarino pela primeira vez, tornando-a CEO . Quero dizer, há uma grande impulsividade nele. Então ele voa de volta, eles lançam a Starship, e você percebe que há uma movimentação e há demônios e também há loucura. E às vezes você quer retirá-los. Você quer tirar o telefone dele para que ele não tweete às 3 da manhã.Você quer dizer, pare de ser tão louco. Mas então você percebe que há uma linha maravilhosa de Shakespeare em Medida por Medida bem no final. Ele diz que mesmo os melhores são moldados a partir de falhas. E assimvocê pega os defeitos de Musk, por exemplo, que inclui uma loucura que pode ser cativante, mas também uma loucura que é como uma loucura, bem como esse modo drive e demon. Não sei se você consegue tirar esse fio do tecido e o tecido permanece inteiro.

LEX: Eu me pergunto, às vezes me entristece que vivamos em uma sociedade que não celebra nem mesmo o mais sombrio aspectos de loucura em reconhecer que tudo vem em um único pacote. É o homem na arena versus o crítico.

WALTER: E o homem na arena versus o regulador para tornar tudo mais prosaico.

LEX: Bem, deixe-me perguntar não apenas sobre o loucura, mas a crueldade. Então você escreveu uma reportagem sobre Steve Jobs. Disseram-lhe que a grande questão a fazer era: ele tinha que ser tão mau, tão rude e cruel, tão viciado em drama? Qual é essa resposta para Steve Jobs? Ele tinha que ser tão cruel?

WALTER: Para Jobs, perguntei no final da minha reportagem, porque foi o que ele disse no início, estamos fazendo o lançamento, acho que do iPad 2, pode ter sido. Steve está emaciado porque esteve doente. E então eu digo para Was, qual é a resposta para sua pergunta? E ele disse, bem, se eu estivesse no comando da Apple, teria sido mais gentil com todos. Todo mundo ficou preso. Temos sido como uma família. E então não sei se você sabe que o Was, ele é como um ursinho de pelúcia. Ele fez uma pausa, sorriu e disse, mas se eu estivesse comandando a Apple, não acho que teríamos feito o Macintosh ou o iPhone. Então, sim, às vezes você tem que ser rude. E Jobs disse a mesma coisa que Must me disse, que ele disse, pessoas como você adoram usar luvas de veludo. Bem, eu não sei se tenho usado luvas de veludo com frequência, mas você gosta que as pessoas gostem de você, você gosta de falar docemente, suas coisas açucaradas. Ele diz: sou apenas um garoto da classe trabalhadora e não tenho esse luxo. Se algo está uma merda, tenho que dizer às pessoas que é uma merda. Ou tenho um time de jogadores B. Bem, Musk também é assim. E isso volta ao que eu disse antes, que é, sim, eu provavelmente usaria luvas de veludo se pudesse encontrá-las no meu armarinho. E eu tento adoçar as coisas. Mas quando eu dirigia a CNN, ela precisava ser remodelada. Precisava ser quebrado. Precisava que certas coisas explodissem. E eu não fiz isso. Foi tão ruim para mim, mas me fez perceber, ok, vou apenas escrever sobre as pessoas que podem fazer isso.

LEX: Bem, essa coisa de dizer, acho que provavelmente os dois, mas Elon certamente dizer coisas assim é a coisa mais estúpida que já ouvi.

WALTER: A propósito, ouvi Jeff Bezos dizer isso. Já ouvi Bill Gates dizer isso. Eu ouvi Steve Jobs dizer isso. Já ouvi Steve Jobs dizer isso sobre um smoothie. Eles estavam fazendo uma fruta inteira ou algo assim. Eles usam a palavra estúpido com muita frequência.

LEX: E você sabe quem mais usou?

WALTER: Errol Musk. Ele continuou assando. Elon fica na frente dele e diz: isso é a coisa mais estúpida. Você é a pessoa mais estúpida. Você nunca será nada. Não sei. Como disse John McNeil, presidente da Tesla, você tem que ser assim? Provavelmente não. Há muitas pessoas de sucesso que são muito mais gentis, mas às vezes é necessário ser muito mais brutalmente honesto, eu diria, do que pessoas como aquelas que são troféus de chefe do ano.

LEX: Bem, como você disse, esse tipo de ideia também enviou um sinal. Essa ideia de Steve Jobs de oito jogadores enviou um sinal para todos. Foi uma espécie de incentivo para todas as pessoas que participaram.

WALTER: Certo. E isso aconteceu com o Twitter. Quando fomos à sede do Twitter, um dia antes da aquisição, ele estava com Andrew e James, seus dois primos jovens e outras pessoas da equipe do piloto automático, repassando linhas de código. E o próprio Musk ficou sentado lá com um laptop no segundo andar do prédio, olhando as linhas de código que foram escritas pelos engenheiros do Twitter. E eles decidiram que iriam demitir 85% deles porque tinham que estar totalmente envolvidos. E essa noção de segurança psicológica e dias de folga mental e trabalho remoto, disse ele, também. E então surgiu, na verdade, um dos seus, acho que foi um dos primos ou talvez Ross Nordine teve a ideia de não sermos tão rudes e apenas despedir todas essas pessoas. Vamos perguntar a eles: você realmente quer participar? Porque isso vai ser pesado. Vai ser intenso. Você pode escolher, mas à meia-noite desta noite queremos que você marque a caixa. Eu sou hardcore, all in, estarei lá pessoalmente, vou trabalhar, sabe, ou isso não é para mim. Eu tenho uma família, tenho equilíbrio no trabalho e você tem diferentes tipos de pessoas e diferentes fases de suas vidas. Eu era um pouco mais hardcore quando tinha vinte e poucos anos e quando tinha, você sabe, cinquenta.

LEX: Sim.E você escreve sobre essa ideia muito boa, na verdade, de que existem dois campos e você descobre, eu não, me pergunto até que ponto isso é verdade. Parece verdadeiro. Você pode simplesmente perguntar às pessoas: em qual campo você está? Você é o tipo de pessoa que ganha prêmioeles mesmos, que gostam de ficar acordados até as 2 da manhã. programação ou algo assim? Ou você vê o valor de entre aspas, você sabe, sobre a vida, o equilíbrio entre vida profissional e todo esse tipo de coisa. E é interessante. Quero dizer, como você poderia, as pessoas provavelmente se dividem em diferentes estágios de vida e você pode simplesmente perguntar a elas e faz sentido para certas empresas em certos estágios de seu desenvolvimento dizerem, nós só queremos pessoas hardcore.

WALTER: Ou certas equipes. Nem precisa ser uma empresa inteira. E você está certo. Isso remonta ao que eu estava dizendo sobre regra. O primeiro segredo é conhecer a si mesmo, obviamente vem de Platão e tudo vem de Platão e Sócrates, mas, e decidir sobre esta fase da minha vida. Eu quero ser um hackathon a noite toda e mudar o mundo? Ou quero trazer sabedoria e estabilidade, mas também ter equilíbrio? Acho que é bom ter empresas diferentes com estilos diferentes. O problema era que o Twitter estava quase no extremo, com estúdios de ioga e dias de folga para saúde mental e consagrando a segurança psicológica como um dos mantras de que as pessoas nunca deveriam se sentir psicologicamente ameaçadas. E ele, eu me lembro da risada amarga que soltou ao ouvir aquela palavra. Ele disse, não, gosto das palavras hardcore. Gosto de intensidade. Gosto de um intenso senso de urgência como nosso princípio operacional. Bem, sim, há pessoas assim também.

LEX: E então saiba quem você é e que tipo de equipe você deseja construir. Contra a segurança psicológica e muitos pássaros por toda parte. Ah, sim.

WALTER: Muitas vezes Musk fez coisas e eu pensei, que diabos? E entre elas estava mudar o nome Twitter e se livrar dos pássaros. Eu disse: Ei cara, investiu muito nessa marca. Mas quando eu o observei, ele pensou, ok, esses passarinhos fofos e alegres tuitando em nome Twitter, não é hardcore. Não é intenso. E então, para o bem e para o mal, acho que ele está levando atos para o reino do hardcore com pessoas que postam coisas hardcore, com pessoas com visões hardcore. Não é um cercadinho educado para a elite ungida de xadrez azul. E eu pensei, ok, isso vai ser ruim. A coisa toda vai desmoronar. Bem, teve problemas, mas a intensidade extrema também significou que há coisas novas acontecendo lá. Portanto, é muito Elon Musk não gostar dessa doçura dos pássaros cantando e tweetando e dizendo: Quero algo mais hardcore.

LEX: Como você escreveu referindo-se ao CEO anterior do Twitter, Elon disse que o Twitter precisa de um dragão cuspidor de fogo. Acho que esta é uma boa oportunidade para talvez passar por alguns dos momentos memoráveis da saga do Twitter, como você escreveu extensivamente em seu livro, desde os primeiros dias de consideração da aquisição até como ela passou pelos detalhes de, como você mencionou, as equipes de engenharia.

WALTER: Bem, no início de 2022, ele estava em alta, mas como dizemos, ele é um viciado em drama. Ele não gosta de fantasmas. E a Tesla vendeu um milhão de veículos. Acho que 33 propulsores, Falcon 9, foram disparados e pousaram com segurança nos últimos meses. E ele era a pessoa mais rica do mundo e a pessoa mais rica do ano. E mesmo assim, ele disse, ainda quero colocar todas as minhas fichas de volta na mesa. Quero continuar correndo riscos. Não quero saborear as coisas. Ele havia vendido todas as suas casas. Então ele começa a comprar secretamente ações do Twitter. Janeiro, fevereiro, março tornam-se públicos em determinado momento. Não sei se devo declarar isso. E estávamos aqui em Austin na Gigafactory no mezanino. E ele estava tentando descobrir, bem, para onde devo ir a partir daqui? E naquela época, no início de abril, eles iriam oferecer a ele um assento no conselho e ele faria um acordo de standstill e pararia em 10% ou algo assim. Agora lembre-se, estávamos parados. Foi Luke Nozick, que você conhece bem, Ken Halry, alguns de seus amigos naquele mezanino aqui. E durante toda a tarde e até tarde da noite no jantar é como se deveríamos fazer isso? E eu não disse nada. Sou apenas o observador. Mas todo mundo está dizendo, com licença, por que você quer ser dono do Twitter? E Griffin, seu filho, juntou-se ao jantar. E May, por algum motivo, estava na cidade. E como todo mundo diz, não, não usamos o Twitter. Por que você faria isso? E May disse, bem, eu uso o Twitter. E é quase como, ok, os dados demográficos são pessoas da minha idade ou da idade de May. E então parecia que ele não iria prosseguir. Ofereceram-lhe um assento no conselho. E então ele foi para o Havaí, para a casa de Larry Ellison, que ele às vezes usa. Ele estava se encontrando com uma amiga, Angela Bassett, atriz. E em vez de aproveitar três dias de férias, ele simplesmente ficou sobrecarregado e começou a enviar mensagens de texto, incluindo a do dragão cuspidor de fogo. Acho que ele usou algumas vezes aquela frase de que Parag não era a pessoa que iria levar o Twitter a um novo nível.E então, quando ele chega a Vancouver, onde Grimes o conhece, eles ficam acordados a noite toda jogando Elden Ring. Ele estava fazendo uma palestra no TED. Eentão, às 17h30, ele termina de jogar Elden Ring e avisa que fiz uma oferta. Mesmo quando ele volta, as pessoas tentam intervir e dizem, com licença, por que você está fazendo isso? E assim foi um período difícil entre o final de abril e outubro, quando o negócio foi fechado. E as pessoas me perguntam o tempo todo, bem, ele queria sair do acordo? Eu perguntei, de qual Elon você está falando a que horas do dia? Porque haverá momentos pela manhã em que ele dirá, ah, o tribunal de Delaware vai me forçar a fazer isso. É horrível. Fale com seus advogados. Você pode ganhar este caso. Tire-me disso. Ele se encontrou aqui em Austin com três ou quatro banqueiros de investimento, Blair Efron da Centerview, Bob Steele da Pirella Weinberg. E eles lhe ofereceram opções. Você quer sair? Você quer ficar em casa? Quer reduzir o preço? E eu acho que ele era inconstante. Houve momentos em que ele me mandou uma mensagem ou disse: isso vai ser ótimo. Será o acelerador para fazer o x .com da maneira que pensávamos há 20 anos. E então só quando finalmente lhe disseram no início de outubro, exatamente quando o Optimus the Robot está sendo apresentado na Califórnia, na verdade, é que o advogado disse: provavelmente você não vai ganhar este caso, mas é melhor prosseguir com o acordo. . E a essa altura ele não apenas fez as pazes com isso, mas também está feliz com isso. Eventualmente, o negócio será fechado, acho que na manhã de sexta-feira. Eu tenho isso no livro. E estamos lá na quinta-feira e ele está vagando por aí olhando as camisetas para ficar acordado e a linguagem de segurança psicológica que todos estão usando. E ele e seus advogados e banqueiros traçaram um plano para fechar rapidamente. E a razão para isso foi se eles fechassem o negócio depois que os mercados tivessem fechado naquele dia, e ele pudesse enviar uma carta para Parag e dois outros, demitindo-os por justa causa, e isso será algo que os tribunais terão que descobrir , então ele poderia economizar cerca de 200 milhões. E foi tanto o dinheiro, mas para ele uma questão, não direi de princípio, mas de, ei, me enganaram sobre os números. Fui forçado a fazer isso. Então vou tentar essa manobra de jiu-jitsu e conseguir tirar algum dinheiro deles. Então, quando ele assume, é uma cena meio selvagem. Ele tentando decidir em três rodadas diferentes como reduzir o quadro de funcionários para 15% do que era. Ele decidiu na véspera de Natal, depois de ter participado de uma reunião onde lhe disseram que não podemos nos livrar daquele farm de servidores de Sacramento, porque precisa de redundância. Ele diz, não, não é. E ele está voando aqui para Austin. E o jovem James diz: por que não fazemos isso nós mesmos? Ele vira o avião, eles pousam em Sacramento e ele mesmo os retira. Então foi um período maníaco.

LEX: Devemos também dizer que, por trás disso, havia um desejo ou consideração de talvez começar uma nova empresa para construir uma empresa de mídia social do zero.

WALTER: Bem, Kimball queria fazer isso. E Kimball aqui em um restaurante maravilhoso em Austin, na hora do almoço fica tipo, ei, por que você está comprando o Twitter? Vamos começar do zero e fazê-lo no blockchain. Agora demorou um pouco, e você pode argumentar de uma forma ou de outra, para chegar à conclusão de que o blockchain não era rápido o suficiente e não tinha tempo de resposta suficiente para ser capaz de lidar com um bilhão de tweets em um ou dois dias. Ele fica furioso quando tentam convencê-lo a falar com Sam Bankman Fried, que está tentando dizer: Vou investir, mas temos que fazer isso no blockchain. Kimball ainda é a favor de começar um novo e fazê-lo baseado em blockchain. Em retrospecto, acho que começar uma nova empresa de mídia teria sido melhor. Ele não teria a bagagem ou o legado que está quebrando agora ao quebrar a forma como o Twitter foi. Mas é difícil ter milhões e milhões, centenas de milhões de usuários verdadeiros, não apenas trolls, e começar do zero como outros descobriram, como Macedon e Blue Sky e tópicos e nenhum tópico sequer tinha uma base. Então teria sido difícil.

LEX: Sim. E fazer isso da maneira que ele fez requer outra parte sobre a qual você escreve com os três mosqueteiros e toda a engenharia, o disparo e a contratação dos engenheiros para tentar ir para o hardcore. Portanto, há muitas perguntas interessantes a serem feitas, mas de alto nível, você pode apenas comentar sobre essa parte da saga, que é trazer os engenheiros e ver o que podemos fazer aqui?

WALTER: Certo. Ele trouxe os engenheiros e calculou que a quantidade de pessoas que usavam Tesla, piloto automático totalmente autônomo e todo o software era cerca de um décimo do que estava fazendo software para o Twitter. E ele disse: não pode ser assim. E disparou 85% em três tiros diferentes. A primeira foi apenas demitir pessoas porque elas analisaram a codificação e tinham uma equipe de pessoas da equipe do piloto automático da Tesla classificando os códigos de tudo o que foi escrito no ano passado.Então ele demitiu pessoas que não pareciam totalmente a favor ou leais. E então outra rodada de demissões. Então, a cada passo do caminho,quase todo mundo disse, isso é o suficiente. Isso vai destruir coisas. De Alex Spiro, seu advogado, a Jared Burchill, ele fica tipo, ei, ei, ei. E mesmo Andrew e James, os jovens primos encarregados de fazer uma lista e descobrir quem é bom ou mau, dizem que já fizemos o suficiente. Estaremos em sérios apuros. E eles estavam parcialmente certos. Quer dizer, houve alguma degradação do serviço, mas não tanto quanto metade dos serviços que utilizo na metade do tempo. E eu acordo todas as manhãs e clico no aplicativo e tudo bem, ainda está lá. O que você acha?

LEX: Isso foi demais?

WALTER: Acho que ele tem um algoritmo que mencionamos anteriormente que começa questionando todos os requisitos, mas cabe a ele deletar , exclua, exclua, exclua todas as partes. E um corolário disso é que se você não adicionar de volta 20% do que excluiu, então você não excluiu o suficiente na primeira rodada porque era muito tímido. Bem, então você me perguntou, ele exagerou? Ele provavelmente superou em 20%, que é a fórmula dele. E provavelmente estão tentando contratar pessoas agora para manter as coisas funcionando.

LEX: Mas isso envia um sinal forte para as pessoas que foram contratadas de volta ou para as pessoas que ainda estão lá.

WALTER : A ideia de abril. Sim. E o que Steve Jobs e muitos outros grandes líderes sentiram e certamente Bezos e certamente nos primeiros dias da Microsoft, Bill Gates, foi hardcore, apenas jogadores A.

LEX: Então, quanto do sucesso de Elon você diria ? O sucesso de Elon e Steve Jobs é a contratação e o gerenciamento de grandes equipes.

WALTER: Quando perguntei a Steve Jobs, qual foi o melhor produto que você já criou? Achei que ele diria talvez o Macintosh ou talvez o iPhone. Ele disse, não, esses produtos são difíceis. A melhor coisa que criei foi a equipe que fez esses produtos. E essa é a parte difícil: criar uma equipe. E ele fez isso, de Johnny Ive a Tim Cook, Eddie Q e Phil Schiller. Elon fez um bom trabalho trazendo pessoas. Gwen Shotwell, obviamente, Linda Iaccarino, ela pode navegar pelas crises atuais. Certamente pessoas estelares na SpaceX como Mark Jankos. E depois na Tesla como Drew Bacalhino e Lars Marravey e Tom Zhu e muitos outros. Ele não é um colaborador de equipe como diz Benjamin Franklin, que, aliás, é o melhor time já criado, que são os fundadores. E você tinha que ter pessoas realmente inteligentes como Jefferson e Madison e pessoas realmente apaixonadas como John Adams e seu primo Samuel e um cara realmente de alta retidão como Washington. Mas você também precisava de um Ben Franklin que pudesse reunir todos e formar uma equipe com eles e fazê-los se comprometer uns com os outros. Musk é um ímã para talentos incríveis.

LEX: Ímã, interessante. Mas existem as prioridades de contratação baseadas na excelência, confiabilidade e motivação. Essas são coisas que você descreveu ao longo do livro. Quer dizer, há um conjunto de ideias bastante concreto e rigoroso com base no qual a contratação é feita.

WALTER: Ah, sim. E ele tem um senso muito bom, aguçado, intuitivo, apenas olhando para as pessoas que poderiam, quer dizer, não olhando para elas, mas estudando aquelas que poderiam ser boas. Uma de suas formas de operar é o que ele chama de reunião de nível superior. E vamos pegar uma coisa muito específica como o motor Raptor, que alimenta a nave estelar. E não estava indo bem. Parecia um arbusto de espaguete e seria difícil de fabricar. E ele se livrou dos responsáveis por aquela equipe. E lembro que ele passou alguns meses fazendo o que chama de skip level, o que significa que, em vez de se reunir com seus subordinados diretos da equipe Raptor, ele se reunia com pessoas um nível abaixo deles. E então ele pularia um nível e se encontraria com eles. E ele disse, isto é, e eu apenas pergunto o que eles estão fazendo. E eu os treinei com perguntas. E ele disse, e é assim que eu descubro quem vai surgir. Ele disse que era particularmente difícil. Eu estava presente nessas reuniões porque as pessoas usavam máscaras. Foi durante o auge do COVID. E ele disse que isso tornou as coisas um pouco mais difíceis para ele porque ele precisava receber informações. Mas eu assisti quando um garoto, Dreadlocks, chamado Jacob McKenzie, ele está no livro, está sentado lá e é um pouco como você. A mentalidade da engenharia fala um pouco monótona. Musk faria uma pergunta e daria uma resposta, e a resposta seria muito direta e ele não ficaria abalado. Ele era assim. E Musk disse que um dia ligou para ele às 3 da manhã. Bem, não vou dizer 3 da manhã, mas depois da meia-noite, você ainda está por aí? E Jake disse, sim, ainda estou no trabalho. E ele disse: OK, vou colocá-lo no comando da formação da equipe Raptor. E isso foi uma grande surpresa. Mas Jacob McKenzie agora tem uma versão do Raptor e quando eles estão construindo ele pelo menos uma por semana e eles são incríveis.E é aí que reside o seu talento, o talento de Musk para encontrar a pessoa certa e promovê-la. É onde está.

LEX: E promovê-lo de uma forma que seja como se aqui estivesse a bola, aquipega.

WALTER: Sim, sim.

LEX: E você corre com ele. Eu interagi com algumas pessoas, mesmo apenas do Modelo X, o tempo todo, onde as pessoas, você sabe, no papel não parecem que seriam. capaz de executar a coisa e eles a executam com muito sucesso.

WALTER: E ele faz isso errado. Às vezes ele teve um histórico horrível com a divisão de telhados solares. Um cara maravilhoso chamado Brian Dow. Eu realmente gostei dele. E quando eles estavam fazendo o aumento da fábrica de baterias em Nevada, Musk se livrou de duas ou três pessoas e lá está Brian Dow. Pode fazer, pode fazer, pode fazer. Fica acordado a noite toda e é promovido e dirige. E então, finalmente, Musk passa por duas ou três pessoas que dirigem a divisão de telhados solares. Finalmente liga para Brian Dow. Eu estava sentado na casa de Musk em Boca Chica, aquele minúsculo quarto de dois quartos que ele tem. E ele oferece a Brian Dow o trabalho de administrar um telhado solar. E você sabe, Brian aí, ok, posso fazer, posso fazer. E duas ou três vezes Musk insistiu para que instalassem um telhado solar numa daquelas casas em Boca Chica. Esta é esta pequena vila no extremo sul do Texas. E tarde da noite, quero dizer, eu teria que subir até o topo do telhado com essas escadas e ficar em pé nesse telhado pontiagudo enquanto Musk estava lá dizendo, por que precisamos de quatro parafusos para colocar esta perna única? E Brian estava suando e fazendo tudo. Mas depois de alguns meses as coisas não estavam indo bem e bum, Musk simplesmente o demitiu. Então eu sempre tento aprender o que faz aqueles que ficam prosperarem?

LEX: Qual é a lição aí? O que você acha?

WALTER: Bem, acho que é autoconhecimento como Andy Krebs ou outros. Eles dizem, eu sou hardcore. Eu realmente quero levar um foguete para Marte e isso é mais importante do que qualquer outra coisa. Uma das pessoas, acho que é o Tim Zeman, espero que quando ele ouvir isso, eu esteja conseguindo para ele a pessoa certa, que demorou. Estava funcionando para o piloto automático do Tesla e era muito intenso. Ele tirou uma folga e depois foi para outra empresa. Ele disse: Fiquei exausto em Tesla, mas depois fiquei entediado no lugar seguinte. Aí liguei, acho que foi o Ashok da Tesla, disse, posso voltar? Ele disse, claro. Ele disse, eu aprendi sobre mim mesmo. Prefiro ficar exausto do que entediado.

LEX: Essa é uma boa frase. Você consegue se deter em um dos três que lhe parecem interessantes em termos de excelência, confiabilidade e motivação? Qual você acha que é o mais importante e o mais difícil de alcançar? A confiabilidade é interessante. Você anda ou morre?

WALTER: Sim. Acho que especialmente quando se tratou de assumir o controle do Twitter, ele pensou que metade das pessoas eram desleais e ele estava errado. Cerca de dois terços foram desleais, e não apenas metade. Foi como podemos eliminá-los? Ele fez alguma coisa e formou o pelotão de fuzilamento, eu chamo, ou os Mosqueteiros, acho que é o meu apelido para eles, que são os primos jovens e mais duas ou três pessoas. Ele os fez olhar as mensagens do Slack que essas pessoas postaram. Todos no Twitter postaram e leram centenas de mensagens do Slack. Se alguém postasse no Slack interno, aquele idiota, Elon Musk, vai assumir o controle e temo que ele seja um maníaco ou algo assim, eles estariam na lista porque querem all-in leais. Eles não analisaram as mensagens privadas do Slack e acho que as pessoas que postam em um quadro corporativo do Slack devem estar cientes de que sua empresa pode visualizá-las. Mas isso é mais do que eu teria feito ou do que a maioria das pessoas teria feito. Isso foi para descobrir quem é profundamente comprometido e leal. Acho que foi principalmente o caso do Twitter. Ele não fica sentado na SpaceX dizendo quem é leal a mim. Em outros lugares, é excelência, mas isso é um dado adquirido. Todo mundo é como um Marc Jancosa, apenas seja esperto. Você é hardcore e all-in, especialmente se você tiver que se mudar para esta cidade no extremo sul do Texas chamada Boca Chica, você tem que estar all-in.

LEX: Sim. Essa é a unidade, a última peça. Você, em termos de colaboração, é uma das grandes equipes de todos os tempos, Ben Franklin. Eu gosto disso. Achei que fossem os Beatles, mas Ben Franklin é muito bom. Ah, não, não, não. Sinto muito.

WALTER: Sim. Desculpe te ofender tanto. Leia a Constituição e leia Abbey Road. Veja Abbey Road. Ambos são bons, mas estão em uma liga diferente.

LEX: Sim, uma liga diferente. Uma das muitas coisas que vem à mente com Ben Franklin é o incrível gerenciamento de tempo. Há algo que você poderia dizer sobre Ben Franklin e Steve Jobs? Acho que o interessante do Elon é que ele, enquanto você escreve, dirige seis empresas, depende do quão surpreendente você é, porque é coisa própria, não sei. O que você pode dizer sobre essas pessoas em termos de gerenciamento de tempo?

WALTER: Bem, Musk está em uma categoria à parte na maneira como faz isso.Em primeiro lugar, Steve Jobs teve que dirigir a Pixar e a Apple por um tempo, mas Musk, a cada duas horas, está mudando sua mentalidade de como implantar o chip de link neural e qual será o robô que o implanta.na aparência do cérebro e com que rapidez podemos fazê-lo se mover, e então o escudo térmico no Raptor ou a mudança para imitação humana, aprendizado de máquina, direção autônoma total. Na noite em que o conselho do Twitter concordou com o acordo, isto é enorme em todo o mundo. Tenho certeza que você se lembra, como Musk compra o Twitter. Não foi quando o negócio foi fechado. Foi quando o Twitter aceitou sua oferta. Eu pensei, tudo bem, mas então ele foi para Boca Chica, no sul do Texas, e passou um tempo consertando, se bem me lembro, uma válvula no motor Raptor que tinha um problema de vazamento de metano, e quais eram as possíveis maneiras de consertar isso. Todos os engenheiros naquela sala, presumo, estão pensando: esse cara acabou de comprar o Twitter, deveríamos dizer alguma coisa, e então ele vai com Kimball para uma lanchonete à beira da estrada em Brownsville e apenas senta na frente e ouve música sem ninguém perceber realmente ele estar lá. Uma das coisas que é um de seus pontos fortes e fracos de certa forma é que, em um determinado dia, ele se concentrará em série, sequencialmente, em muitas coisas diferentes. Ele se preocupará em enviar vídeos para x .com ou no sistema de pagamento e, em seguida, mudará imediatamente para algum problema com a FAA dando permissão para Starship ou como lidar com Starlink e a CIA. Quando ele está focado em qualquer uma dessas coisas, você não consegue distraí-lo. Não é como se ele também estivesse pensando em negociar com a Starlink, mas também preciso me preocupar com a decisão da Tesla sobre o novo carro de US$ 25.000. Agora, ele irá, entre essas sessões, processar informações e depois desabafar. Para o bem ou para o mal, ele desabafa bancando o amigo na politopia ou disparando alguns tweets, o que muitas vezes não é uma coisa saudável, mas é uma libertação para ele. Certa vez eu disse que ele era um grande multitarefa, e isso foi um erro. As pessoas me corrigiram. Ele é um tasker em série, o que significa que se concentra intensamente numa tarefa durante uma hora, quase faz um, como dizem, em restaurantes onde lhe dão um limpador de palato. Ele limpa o paladar com politopia e depois se concentra na próxima tarefa.

LEX: Existe alguma sabedoria sobre gerenciamento de tempo que você pode extrair disso?

WALTER: Há algumas coisas que essas pessoas fazem e você diz, ok, eu posso ser assim. Posso ficar mais curioso. Posso questionar todas as regras e regulamentos. Só não acho que alguém deva tentar imitar o estilo de gerenciamento de tempo de Musk, porque é necessário um certo conjunto de equipes que saibam como lidar com tudo o mais, exceto aquilo em que ele está se concentrando, e uma certa mente que pode mudar, assim como seu humor. pode mudar. Você e eu passamos por transições e também se estou pensando no que vou dizer neste podcast, também estou pensando no e-mail que minha filha acabou de enviar sobre uma casa que ela está olhando, e estou realizando multitarefas . Na verdade, ele não faz isso. Ele executa tarefas sequencialmente com um foco intenso.

LEX: Não sei. Acho que há sabedoria em extrair disso. Em primeiro lugar, ele me faz, Ben Franklin me faz sentir assim, que o dia tem muitas horas. Há muitos minutos no dia. Não há desculpa para não fazer muita coisa e isso requer apenas um foco extremo, um foco extremo e uma urgência.

WALTER: Acho que a urgência feroz que o move é importante e às vezes é estimulada. Como eu disse, a grande urgência de chegar a Marte e numa sexta-feira à noite na plataforma de lançamento em Boca Chica às 22h, há poucas pessoas trabalhando porque é sexta-feira à noite. Eles não devem ser lançados antes de oito meses. E ele ordena uma onda. Ele diz: Quero 200 pessoas aqui amanhã trabalhando neste bloco. Temos que ter um forte senso de urgência ou nunca chegaremos a Marte.

LEX: Esse senso de urgência também é uma vibração que é como realmente assumir a vida plenamente. Quero dizer, para mim, essa é a lição: até o mundano pode estar cheio dessa riqueza justa. E como se você realmente tivesse que absorver isso intensamente. Assim como a mudança permite esse tipo de intensidade porque a maioria de nós não consegue manter essa intensidade em nenhuma tarefa por um período prolongado de tempo. Talvez isso também seja uma lição.

WALTER: Certo. E acho que isso também significa saber quem você é, o que significa que há pessoas que conseguem se concentrar intensamente e há pessoas que conseguem ver padrões em muitas coisas. Olha, Leonardo da Vinci, ele não estava tão focado. Ele se distraía facilmente. Procrastinar. É por isso que ele tem mais pinturas inacabadas do que pinturas acabadas em seu cânone. Mas a sua capacidade de ver padrões na natureza e, de certa forma, processar, procrastinar, distrair-se, isso o ajudou um pouco, mas Musk não é assim.E a cada poucos meses há uma nova onda, você não sabe onde estará, mas estará em telhados solares e de repente teremos uma onda e deve haver, você sabe, uma cem telhados solares construídos ou isso tem que ser feito amanhã ou fazer uma cúpula de nave estelar ao amanhecer e surgir e fazê-lo. E há pessoas que são construídas dessa forma. É inspirador, mas também vamos perceber, você sabe, que existem pessoas quepode ser muito bom, mas também pode saborear o sucesso, saborear o momento, saborear o silêncio às vezes. A grande falha de Musk é que ele não consegue saborear o momento ou o sucesso. E esse é o outro lado da intensidade hardcore.

LEX: Em Inovadores, outro livro seu que adoro, você escreve sobre indivíduos e sobre grupos. Portanto, uma das questões que o livro aborda é: são os indivíduos ou são os grupos que mudam o rumo da história?

WALTER: Quando Henry Kissinger estava nas missões do ônibus espacial para o Oriente Médio, a paz é o primeiro livro que eu já escreveu. Ele disse que, quando eu era professor em Harvard, pensava que a história era determinada por grandes forças e grupos de pessoas. Mas quando vejo isso de perto, vejo a diferença que um indivíduo pode fazer. Ele está falando sobre Sadat e Golda Meir, provavelmente falando sobre si mesmo também, ou pelo menos em sua mente. E nós, biógrafos, temos esse segredo sujo que conhecemos, distorcemos um pouco a história ao tornar a narrativa muito conduzida por um indivíduo. Mas às vezes é conduzido por um indivíduo. Musk é um caso assim. E às vezes, como fiz com os Inovadores, há equipes e pessoas que se baseiam umas nas outras e Gordon Moore e Bob Noyce, depois pegam Andy Grove e fazem o microchip, que então sai e Wozniak e Jobs o encontram em alguma loja de eletrônicos e eles decidem construir a Apple. E então, às vezes, há fluxos de forças e grupos de pessoas. Acho que errei um pouco ao olhar para o que Steve Jobs, Elon Musk e Albert Einstein podem fazer. E também tento descobrir se eles não existissem, as forças da história e os grupos de pessoas teriam feito isso sem eles? Essa é uma boa pergunta histórica para alguém que ama história. E você pensa na relatividade especial, um dos artigos de 1905. Mesmo depois de ele escrever, passam-se quatro anos até que as pessoas realmente entendam o que ele está dizendo, ou seja, não é apenas como você observa que o tempo é relativo, é o próprio tempo que é relativo. E na teoria geral, que ele faz uma década depois, não tenho certeza se já conseguiríamos isso. Que tal nos levar para a era de um iPhone em que ele é tão lindo que você não consegue viver sem mil músicas no bolso, e-mail e internet no bolso e um telefone? Há muitas pessoas com morte cerebral, da Panasonic à Motorola, que não entenderam isso. E pode ter passado um tempo. Certamente acho que isso se aplica à era dos veículos elétricos. Jim e Ford, todas as grandes pessoas de lá, esmagaram o parafuso. E quero dizer que, literalmente, eles acabaram destruindo-os porque decidiram interrompê-lo. Da mesma forma, ninguém estava enviando foguetes. Nosso ônibus espacial estava prestes a aterrar há 12 anos. E assim Musk faz as coisas e haverá pessoas que dirão, se lerem o livro, verão a história completa. Mas dizem que não foi Musk quem fez Tesla, foi Martin Abba Hart ou Mark Tarpenning. Não não não. Houve pessoas que ajudaram a criar as fachadas de empresas e outras coisas e todos mereciam ser chamados de cofundadores. Mas o cara que realmente nos leva a um milhão de veículos elétricos por ano é Elon Musk. E sem ele, não acho que nós... Olha, se alguém daqui a cinco anos comprar um carro movido a gasolina, pensaremos que isso é estranho, que é estranho. Quero dizer, de repente mudamos. Nós não vamos fazer isso. 90% disso é Elon Musk.

LEX: Somos todos mortais. Quando e como você acha que Elon se aposentará do horário insanamente produtivo em que está agora?

WALTER: Eu acho que ele odiaria se aposentar. Acho que ele não consegue viver sem a pressão, o drama, o sentimento total. Nunca houve nada que parecesse ter passado pela sua cabeça. Ele nunca disse que talvez eu ame a casa de Larry Ellison na praia do Havaí. Talvez eu devesse gastar tempo fazendo. Em vez disso, ele diz coisas como: Aprendi desde cedo que as férias vão matar você. Ele contrai malária quando sai de férias. Quero dizer, ele sai de férias a certa altura e eles o expulsam do PayPal. E então ele vai para a África e pega malária. Ele diz, eu aprendi, as férias matam você. Lição aprendida.

LEX: Bem, é interessante porque os projetos são projetos de mais de cem anos. Muitos deles.

WALTER: Uma das coisas estranhas é vê-lo pensar a um prazo incrivelmente longo. Uma das reuniões todas as semanas no início, quando eu o observava, era o colonizador de Marte. E fizemos uma reunião de duas horas sobre qual seria a estrutura de governança em Marte? O que as pessoas vestiriam? Como funcionariam os robôs? E haveria democracia ou deveria haver uma forma diferente de governação? Estou sentado lá dizendo: o que eles estão fazendo? Do que eles estão falando? Eles estão tentando construir foguetes e tudo mais. Eles estão preocupados com a estrutura de governação de Marte.E da mesma forma, sempre que ele estiver em um momento tenso, como se houvesse um foguete prestes a ser lançado, ele começará a perguntar às pessoas algo no futuro, como o novo motor principal ou algo assim. Se vamos construir isso, temosmateriais suficientes prontos para encomenda ou, não sei, ele apenas fará perguntas como quando está construindo um táxi-robô, o carro global, o carro global barato de US$ 25 mil. Isso não é uma paixão total. Ele foi convencido a fazer isso. Sua paixão são os táxis-robôs, mas sua paixão é como vamos fazer com que esta fábrica produza um milhão de carros por ano? Portanto, mesmo o táxi-robô é uma visão de longo alcance. Quero dizer, ele está divulgando isso desde 2016, mas nós não. Não existem táxis robôs. Quer dizer, a Waymo pode estar fazendo um pequeno experimento, mas não há carros fabricados sem volante que vão dominar as rodovias. Sim. Então, ele está sempre olhando para o futuro, é o que quero dizer.

LEX: Só espero que haja muitos Da Vinci, Steve Jobs, Einstein e Elon Musk que levem a chama adiante.

WALTER: Essa é uma das razões pelas quais você escreve livros sobre essas pessoas é para que, se você é uma jovem em uma escola onde não lhe dizem para fazer ciências e lê o decifrador de códigos sobre Jennifer Doudna, você diz, ok , eu posso ser isso. E quando você diz, ah, talvez eu seja um regulador ou você diz, ah, não, talvez eu seja a pessoa que ultrapassa os limites, que ultrapassa os limites, que empurra, como disse Steve Jobs, a raça humana.

LEX: Bem, deixe-me perguntar sobre sua mente, sua genialidade, seu processo. Vou te dar dois de três. Tudo bem. Conte-me sobre seu processo de escrever uma biografia. Quero dizer, totalmente. E não apenas escrevendo uma biografia, mas compreendendo profundamente o que seus livros fizeram pela história humana e como as ideias maiores subjacentes à história humana. Então você escreveu biografias de indivíduos, que dificilmente são indivíduos. É um quadro muito grande e complexo. E biografias de ideias que envolvem indivíduos.

WALTER: Bem, o primeiro passo para mim é tentar descobrir como a mente funciona. O que levou Einstein a dar esse salto para Elon Musk dizer aço inoxidável enquanto olha para um foguete de fibra de carbono? Ou como você dá o salto mental? Porque escrevo sobre pessoas inteligentes, mas pessoas inteligentes custam um centavo a dúzia. Eles geralmente não significam muito. É preciso ser criativo, imaginativo para pensar diferente, como diria Jobs. E então o que torna as pessoas criativas? O que os faz dar saltos imaginativos? Essa é a pergunta chave que você deve fazer. Você também faz as perguntas como fez anteriormente, que é o que os demônios estão agitando em suas cabeças e como eles os transformam em impulsos? Então você olha para tudo isso e tenta observar a pessoa com muito cuidado. Uma das coisas mais mundanas que faço é que muitos escritores tentam dar a você muitas opiniões e pregar ou algo assim. Como eu disse, esse mentor disse que surgem dois tipos de pessoas, pregadores contadores de histórias. Seja um contador de histórias. Tento sempre que estou tentando transmitir um pensamento, há seis palavras mágicas que eu quase deveria ter escrito em um cartão preso acima da minha mesa, que é deixe-me contar uma história. Então, se alguém perguntar como Elon Musk descobriu bons talentos como você, eu acho, bem, deixe-me contar a história. Vou contar a história de Jake McKenzie. Ou isso não é algo que eu inventei. É aqui que o bom Senhor faz isso na Bíblia. Quero dizer, tem a melhor frase inicial de todos os tempos, você sabe, no começo, vírgula, e depois são histórias. E em segundo lugar, para retomar a frase inicial do início, torne-a cronológica. Todo mundo no 40º ano de vida cresceu do 39º e do 38º ano. E então você quer mostrar como as pessoas evoluem e crescem. Tive a maior de todas as atitudes narrativas de não-ficção, Alice Mayhew em Simon Schuster, que entre outras coisas criou todos os homens do presidente com Woodward e Bernstein. Mas ela tinha uma nota que colocou nas margens dos meus livros, que era uma marca, e significava tudo em seu devido tempo. Mantenha-o cronológico. Se é bom o suficiente para a Bíblia, é bom o suficiente para você.

LEX: Interessante. Para mim, essa é uma pequena nota, mas para você é extremamente importante.

WALTER: Porque é a estrutura de como você estrutura as coisas, mas também como você entende as coisas, ou seja, se você mantiver uma ordem cronológica narrativa, então você está mostrando como uma pessoa cresceu de uma experiência sobre a qual você falou para a próxima. E esse crescimento moral, crescimento criativo, crescimento de assumir riscos, sabedoria, essas são as essências da criatividade. Mas você não pode fazer isso. Existe um termo, Bildungsroman, que é um livro que carrega uma narrativa e conta como as pessoas aprendem alguma coisa. Acredito muito na narrativa. Se você é um acadêmico, às vezes não hoje, mas há 20, 30 anos, havia duas coisas que você considerava ruins. Uma delas era ter uma teoria da história de uma grande pessoa na qual você decidiu fazer uma biografia. Tive um ótimo professor quando estava na faculdade. O nome dela era Doris Kearns. Mais tarde, ela se casou com Dick Goodwin.E ela, quando estava indo para a universidade, escreveu uma biografia de Lyndon Johnson e do sonho americano. E eles negaram seu mandato porque estava abaixo dodignidade da academia escrever a história através de uma pessoa. Isso é ótimo. Abriu o campo da biografia para nós, não acadêmicos, começando com David McCullough, Bob Caro, mas talvez John Meacham e eu pertençamos a uma nova geração. E certamente há uma geração vindo depois de nós. Mas a segunda coisa, além de contar através das pessoas, é que a academia tendia a desdenhar o que chamavam de imposição de uma narrativa e o que você transformava em narrativa. Porque isso significava que você estava deixando as coisas de fora e transformando isso em uma narrativa. Bem, é assim que formamos a nossa visão do mundo.

LEX: Bem, deixe-me fazer-lhe esta pergunta em termos de obtenção de entendimento. Quanto disso é uma observação e quanto são entrevistas?

WALTER: Sim. Hum, e obviamente depende do assunto. Quero dizer, com um Ben Franklin, é tudo baseado em arquivos e tudo, é claro, temos 40 volumes de cartas. Ele escreveu, eram bons velhos tempos, quando todos os dias você escrevia 20 cartas. O livro obrigatório é baseado muito mais na observação do que quase todos os meus livros, porque ele se abriu de uma forma que foi de tirar o fôlego para mim. Sim. Mesmo quando ele estava sentado em uma politopia vazia ou furioso com outras pessoas, você sabe, ele me fazia ficar ali sentado, observando. Quer dizer, passei muito tempo com Jennifer ao seu lado. Fui ao laboratório dela e editei um gene humano e, você sabe, com uma pipeta e um tubo de ensaio. Mas eu diria que passei 30 horas com ela. Não consigo contar, você sabe, cem horas ou mais apenas observando a mesquita. E não tenho certeza de que algum biógrafo, talvez desde que Boswell assumiu o trabalho do Dr. Johnson, tenha tido tanto acesso de perto, ou seja, a um metro e meio de distância em todos os momentos. E por causa disso, voltarei ao que disse há pouco. Tento sair do caminho da história. Não é sobre mim. Não se trata, tento apenas dizer, ok, aqui está o que aconteceu. Aqui está esta história. Aqui está o que aconteceu. E então, na noite em que ele entrou no Twitter pela primeira vez e deixou você formar seu próprio julgamento.

LEX: E as entrevistas? Você teve muitas conversas. Você reconhece as pessoas com quem fez entrevistas. Bem, primeiro, como aspirante a entrevistador, tenho que perguntar como?

WALTER: As pessoas adoram conversar. As pessoas simplesmente amam, você sabe disso. Já tive 140, talvez 150 pessoas, todas listadas no final. Uma das pequenas coisas que as pessoas não vão notar, mas vou dizer agora, é que todas elas estão registradas. Fazê-los falar é fácil. Todos querem falar sobre mesquita. Mas então, a certa altura, digo: não coloco citações anônimas em meu livro. Eu cito coisas. Eu digo, se você for durão o suficiente e já passou por isso, e muitas vezes são necessárias duas ou três ligações de volta. Alguém vai me dizer, ah, não, não, não, eu não quero. Mas acho importante saber de onde veio tudo. E com as mesquitas, tive isso desde o início porque era repórter da Time Magazine. Eu trabalhei como repórter do Times-Picayune em Nova Orleans. No primeiro dia de trabalho, tive que cobrir um assassinato. Liguei para contar a história de um telefone público e meu editor, o editor da cidade disse, bem, você conversou com a família? Eu fui, não, Billy. Quer dizer, a família, a filha acabou de ir, disse ele, bater na porta. Bati na porta. Uma hora depois, eles ainda estavam conversando. Eles estavam trazendo seu anuário. Lição um que aprendi: as pessoas querem falar se você estiver disposto a apenas ouvir. E quer seja Henry Kissinger, basta apertar o botão e dizer Kissinger, e as pessoas lhe contam as histórias. Durante todo o Elon Musk, todo mundo falou. Todos em sua família, todos que ele demitiu, todos. Quer dizer, acho importante ouvir as pessoas. E a outra coisa que aprendi como repórter, quando cobria política em New Hampshire e nas primeiras campanhas, aprendi com dois ou três grandes repórteres, um cara chamado David Broder e Tim Russert, o falecido cara da NBC. Eles fazem o que foi chamado de bater na porta. Você simplesmente anda por um bairro, bate na porta e pergunta às pessoas sobre a eleição. Mas eles disseram, aqui está o segredo. Não faça perguntas indutoras. Não tenha nenhuma premissa. Basta dizer, ei, estou tentando entender esta eleição. O que está acontecendo? O que você acha? E então fique em silêncio. Com Musk, um terceiro segredo, você sabe disso muito bem. Ele ficará em silêncio às vezes. Às vezes um minuto, dois minutos, quatro minutos. Não tente preencher os silêncios. Se você é ouvinte, precisa aprender, ok, ele não fala nada há quatro minutos. Eu posso sobreviver a ele.

LEX: É difícil. Como humanos, é muito difícil. Respeitar o silêncio é muito, muito difícil. Falando em demônios, quando há silêncio, todos os demônios aparecem na minha cabeça. O medo, eu acho, é que se eu não disser nada, será chato. E se eu disser alguma coisa, será estúpido. E esse é o motor básico que continua funcionando.Não no podcast, no podcast, mas também na interação humana. E então eu acho que há aquela energia nervosa ao interagir com as pessoas.

WALTER: Você nunca pode irerrado ficar em silêncio se não há nada a dizer. Não é algo que eu domine, mas, quando sou repórter, tento dominar isso, que é não fazer perguntas complexas. Não intervenha. E quando alguém não respondeu totalmente à pergunta, não diga, bem, deixe-me, você sabe, apenas fique em silêncio e então eles continuarão falando.

LEX: Apenas dê a eles uma chance de continuar conversando. Mesmo que eles já tenham terminado, ainda assim.

WALTER: Às vezes eles não te deram o suficiente. Em vez de continuar, apenas aceno com a cabeça e me afasto.

LEX: Você está fazendo com que pareça simples. Existe algum segredo para fazer com que as pessoas se abram mais?

WALTER: Tenho um pouco de sorte porque, você sabe, comecei trabalhando para um jornal diário e as pessoas daquela época queriam falar com o jornal repórter.

LEX: Mas você também tem um jeito. Tipo, eu sinto que você parece um cowboy em um saloon. Como se você só quisesse conversar. Como se houvesse um empate. Não sei. Eu não sei o que é. Talvez seja, não sei se é desenvolvedor, você nasceu com isso, mas parece que quero te contar algum tipo de história.

WALTER: Bom, me conte uma história. Algumas coisas. Aprendi a ficar mais quieto. Tenho certeza que sei quando era mais jovem ou até verei vídeos meus em, você sabe, notícias onde estou sempre tentando fazer uma pergunta. E assim você aprende a ficar mais quieto às vezes. Eu não dominei isso. Eu não aprendi o suficiente. Você aprende a ser naturalmente curioso. Muitos repórteres hoje, quando fazem uma pergunta ou estão tentando pegar a pegadinha, ou tentando obter uma notícia ou tentando, você sabe, fazer algo que possa gerar uma vantagem. E se você realmente estiver curioso e realmente quiser saber a resposta para uma pergunta, então as pessoas saberão que você fez a pergunta porque deseja a resposta, não porque está jogando um jogo com elas.

LEX : Tenho certeza de que alguns deles não oficialmente, alguns deles oficialmente, vocês tiveram talvez, você sabe, algumas conversas incríveis. Eu ia contar algumas das melhores conversas de todos os tempos, mas quem sabe? Algumas das melhores conversas de todos os tempos provavelmente acontecem em algum lugar da América do Sul entre duas pessoas bêbadas que nunca ouvimos. Então eu não, eu não sei. Mas existe algum recurso que você possa dar com o que aprendeu para alguém como eu e como ter uma boa conversa, especialmente depois de gravada?

WALTER: Bem, para ser realmente curioso. Quero dizer, todas as perguntas que você me fez é porque acho que você realmente quer saber a resposta e fez sua lição de casa para ser aberto e não ter uma agenda. Quero dizer, todos nós sofremos por haver muitas agendas no mundo hoje.

LEX: Sim. Então, isso é apenas uma curiosidade genuína, mas, hum, há algo quando você fala sobre apenas uma interação individual, seja Elon ou Steve Jobs, ou há algo lindo na mente dessa pessoa. E parece que é possível revelar isso, descobrir isso juntos de forma eficiente. E esse é o objetivo de uma conversa.

WALTER: Bem, quero dizer, olhe, você está entre os melhores podcasters e entrevistadores do mundo hoje. Você tem uma seriedade com você. Hum, Ben Franklin é a pessoa que me ensinou, quero dizer, lendo para ele mais sobre conversação. Ele escreveu um ensaio maravilhoso sobre isso. Inclui o silêncio. Uh, mas inclui tentar fazer perguntas sinceras em vez de transmitir um ponto de vista. Quero dizer, é um tanto socrático, mas sempre que ele se perguntava, eu queria começar um núcleo de bombeiros na Filadélfia. Ele iria até seu grupo que chamava de clube do avental de couro e eles fariam uma pergunta. Por que não temos isso? O que seria necessário? O que seria bom? E a segunda parte é garantir que você ouça. E se alguém tiver apenas o germe de uma ideia, dê-lhe crédito por isso. Como Joe disse, você sabe, o verdadeiro problema é este, e eu acho que se estou em situações e quero dizer apenas um jantar ou algo assim, estou com alguém, geralmente fico curioso e vou , a conversa continuará, você sabe, com, com perguntas. E acho que também é porque estou muito interessado no que as pessoas estão fazendo, com quem quer que eu esteja. E esse é um talento que você tem, que é bastante genuíno em seus interesses. Tem gente como Benjamin Franklin, como, direi Charlie Rose, mesmo sendo desfavorecido, que se interessa por uma infinidade de assuntos. E acho que também ajuda estar interessado em basquete, ópera, física e metafísica. Uh, isso foi um Ben Franklin, isso foi um truque de Leonardo, que é que eles queriam saber tudo o que você pudesse saber sobre todos os assuntos cognoscíveis.

LEX: Mas há um aspecto diferente disso, que é, hum , que adoraria saber como você resolveu ou se enfrentou, que com certeza está desarmando.Uh, veja, estou tipo, uh, enchendo você de elogios aqui, tentando te pegar.

WALTER: Esse é um método muito desarmante. Sim. Conversei recentemente com Benjamin e Yahoo. Nós vamos, vamos conversarde novo. Infelizmente, causamos um agendamento e complexidades que só tiveram uma hora, o que é muito difícil, muito difícil com o político carismático.

LEX: Eu entendo isso, mas ele também é um falador carismático, o que é muito difícil de quebrar em uma hora. Hum, mas há pessoas que construíram muros, seja por causa de demônios ou por causa de seus políticos. E então eles têm agendas e narrativas e assim por diante. E então, para romper com isso, hum, eu me pergunto se há algum conselho, alguma sabedoria que você aprendeu sobre como, uh, desgastar através da água ou qualquer outro método, as paredes que construímos como indivíduos.

WALTER: Quer dizer, você chama isso de desarmar, o que não sei se sou, mas desarmar basicamente significa que você está derrubando os escudos deles também. E você sabe, quando as pessoas têm um escudo e você tenta dar-lhes conforto, não tive esse problema com Elon Musk. Quer dizer, foi como se estivesse me desarmando, ou seja, fiquei esperando para dizer, ok, ele não vai, ele tem uma concha ou não vai fazer isso. Mas ele era, hum, quase loucamente aberto e não parecia querer ficar girando, escondendo ou fingindo coisas. Hum, e eu tive sorte. Doudna era assim. Steve Jobs era assim, e você também precisa investir tempo. Em outras palavras, hum, você não pode dizer, ok, há uma entrevista de uma hora e vou derrubar todas as paredes. É como na sua quinta visita.

LEX: Uma das coisas na minha situação, você aprende que a quinta visita é muito boa, mas às vezes você não consegue uma quinta visita. Às vezes é apenas o primeiro encontro. E, hum, acho que tudo se resume, e dissemos desarmamento, mas há algo nessa pessoa em que você confia. Acho que muito disso se resume à confiança de uma forma profundamente humana. E eu acho que, uh, com, com, uh, com muitas das pessoas com quem conversei, às vezes a confiança acontece como depois da entrevista, o que é muito triste porque é tipo, cara, eu nunca estive no seu situação em que tenho um show.

WALTER: Geralmente tenho. Em segundo lugar, não sou uma pessoa de primeiro encontro. Sim. Sim. Sim. Bem, você sabe, mas então tenho sorte. Quer dizer, estou dentro, digo, com sorte, mas estou imprimindo, você sabe, a impressão é um meio de alguns milhares de anos, mas há aqueles de nós que adoram.

LEX: Bem , a natureza do meio de podcast é que eu sou o tipo de garota que fica com uma noite só. Uh, deixe-me perguntar sobre objetividade. Você seguiu Elon e segue Steve. Tipo você, quer dizer, nem sei se você diria amigo, tem que tomar cuidado com palavras assim, mas você é, existe uma intimidade. Hum, e como você permanece objetivo? Você quer permanecer objetivo enquanto conta uma história profundamente humana?

WALTER: Sim. Quer dizer, quero ser honesto, o que acho que é o mesmo que ser objetivo. Uh, tento ter em mente para quem estou escrevendo? Não estou escrevendo para Elon Musk. Como já disse, não lhe enviei o livro. Não sei se ele, acho que ele ainda não leu. Hum, tenho uma pessoa para quem estou escrevendo para o leitor de mente aberta. E se eu puder colocar uma história e dizer, bom, isso vai irritar o sujeito ou vai realmente deixar o sujeito feliz. Isso é irrelevante. Ou tento fazer disso uma consideração menor. É para o leitor entender melhor porque coloquei essa história no livro.

LEX: Sou um pouco romântico. Então, para mim, até o seu livro de Einstein trazia lições sobre romance e relacionamentos. Oh céus. Então, quão importantes são os relacionamentos românticos para o sucesso de grandes homens, grandes mulheres, grandes mentes?

WALTER: Bem, às vezes as pessoas que afetam o curso da humanidade têm relacionamentos melhores com a humanidade do que com os humanos sentados ao redor eles. Einstein teve dois relacionamentos interessantes com esposas. Sua, você sabe, Maleva, sua primeira esposa foi uma caixa de ressonância e ajudou com a matemática do artigo sobre relatividade especial em particular. Hum, mas ele não a tratou bem. Quero dizer, ele a fez assinar uma carta dizendo que não iria interrompê-lo. Ela não quis, você sabe, e finalmente, quando ela quis o divórcio, ele não pôde pagar porque ainda era funcionário de patentes. E então, ele ofereceu a ela um acordo, o que eu acho totalmente incrível. Ele disse que um dia destes um daqueles artigos de 1905 vai ganhar o prémio Nobel. Se nos divorciarmos, você sabe, eu lhe darei o dinheiro. Hum, isso era muito dinheiro naquela época, como um milhão de dólares agora ou algo assim. E ela é inteligente. Ela é uma cientista. Ela consulta alguns outros cientistas. E depois de uma semana ou mais ela aceita a aposta. Será até 1919 que ele ganhará o prêmio Nobel? Uh, e ela fica com todo o dinheiro. Ela compra três prédios de apartamentos em Zurique. Uh, com sua segunda esposa, Elsa, foi mais uma parceria de conveniência.Não foi um amor romântico, mas ele sabia, e às vezes o que as pessoas precisam na vida é apenas de um parceiro. Quero dizer, alguém que vai lidar com as coisas que você não vai lidar. Então eu acho que se você olhar meus livros, eles não são grandes guias inspiradores pararelacionamentos pessoais.

LEX: Deixe-me perguntar sobre o próprio processo de escrita. Quando você observou, quando ouviu, quando coletou todas as informações, o que é, uh, talvez até mesmo a pergunta boba e mundana de, uh, o que você come no café da manhã antes de começar a escrever?

WALTER: Quando você escreve? Em primeiro lugar, o pequeno-almoço não é a minha refeição preferida. E aquelas pessoas que dizem que é preciso começar com um café da manhã farto, eu olho com desconfiança. Sim. Uh, e a manhã não é minha parte favorita do dia. Então escrevo à noite e porque adoro narrativa, é fácil estruturar um livro, ou seja, posso fazer um esboço que se imprimisse ou notas seriam cem páginas, mas está tudo em ordem. Em outras palavras, se servimos, se há um homem em chamas e ele está voltando de Grimes e depois há um telhado solar, e então há alguma coisa, eu coloco tudo em ordem dia após dia como um esboço. E isso me disciplina quando estou começando a escrever para seguir o mantra de Alice Mayhew, minha primeira editora, que é tudo na hora certa. Não se antecipe à história. Não precisa flashback. Hum, e depois de conseguir que tudo fique cronológico, você sabe, as coisas, então você tem que fazer alguns agrupamentos. Você sabe, você tem que dizer, ok, vamos tomar a decisão de fazer Starship ou construir uma fábrica no Texas ou algo assim. E então às vezes você tem o problema organizacional de, sim, e isso nos leva até aqui. Devo manter isso neste ou naquele capítulo ou espero até mais tarde, quando estiver melhor cronologicamente? Mas isso é fácil.

LEX: Bem, e quanto ao processo real de contar a história?

WALTER: Bem, esse é o mantra que mencionei anteriormente, que é sempre que eu faço uma pausa ou não sei como dizer alguma coisa, apenas digo, deixe-me contar uma história. E então encontro a anedota, a história, a história que engloba o que estou tentando transmitir. E então não digo o que estou tentando transmitir. Não tenho uma frase de transição que diga, você sabe, Elon às vezes muda de ideia com tanta frequência que ele não consegue se lembrar se mudou de ideia ou, você sabe, você não precisa, você não precisa de frases de transição. Você acabou de dizer, tudo bem, aqui está o que preciso abordar a seguir. E então você começa com uma frase que diz, você sabe, um dia de janeiro na fábrica no Texas, vírgula.

LEX: Bem, uma das coisas que eu adoraria lhe pedir é um conselho pois, para os jovens, para mim, o primeiro conselho seria ler biografias no sentido porque elas ajudam você a compreender todas as diferentes maneiras de viver uma vida bem vivida. Mas por ter escrito biografias, por ter estudado tantos grandes homens e mulheres, que conselho você poderia dar às pessoas sobre como viver esta, esta vida?

WALTER: Bem, eu continuo voltando aos clássicos e a Platão e Aristóteles e Sócrates. E acho que é a máxima de Platão, mas ele pode estar citando Sócrates, de que a vida não examinada não vale a pena ser vivida. E isso volta ao autoconhecimento, que é que você não precisa descobrir qual é o grande significado de tudo isso, mas precisa descobrir por que está fazendo o que está fazendo. E isso exige algo que eu não tinha o suficiente quando era jovem, que é autoconsciência e exame de cada motivo, de tudo que faço.

LEX: Aonde o exame o leva? É para, para, para uma mudança na trajetória de vida?

WALTER: Quer dizer, não é para mim, certo, agora decidi que sendo jornalista, vou concorrer um think tank ou administrarei uma rede ou escreverei uma biografia. Na verdade, é algo que é mais útil de hora em hora. Tipo, por que estou prestes a dizer isso a alguém ou por que vou fazer esse ato específico? Qual é o meu verdadeiro motivo aqui? E também no sentido mais amplo, para aprender como aprendi depois de alguns anos na CNN, meu exame da minha vida é que não sou muito bom em administrar organizações complexas. Não sou bom como gerente, se tiver escolha. Prefiro que outra pessoa me administre do que eu administre pessoas. Mas demorei um pouco para descobrir isso. E provavelmente eu era ambicioso demais quando era jovem e estava na Time Magazine. Foi quando eu era verde e, ah, bem, foi quando eu estava em meus dias de salada, verde e julgador. E foi como perseguir o próximo nível na Time Incorporated, seja ele qual for. E então, um dia, peguei o anel de bronze e me tornei editor e depois editor principal. E depois de um tempo percebi que não era exatamente isso que eu estava preparado para ser, especialmente quando fui encarregado da CNN. Quero dizer, todos os jovens estão quase por definição em seus dias de salada verdes e criteriosos. Mas você aprende o que está motivando você.E aí você aprende a perguntar, mas é isso mesmo que eu quero? Devo ter cuidado com o que desejo?

LEX: Um dos grandes exames que você pode fazer é o fato de que você e todos morrem um dia. Quanto você altera, Isaacson? Pense na morte. Você tem medo disso?

WALTER: Não, e eu não penso muito nisso. Mas eu achosobre Steve Jobs, deixe-me contar uma história, que é a maravilhosa história de Steve Jobs, acho que depois que ele foi diagnosticado, mas antes de se tornar público. E ele deu uma palestra em Stanford, mas outras coisas, em que ele disse que o fato de que vamos morrer dá foco e sentido. Se você vai viver, e Elon Musk me disse isso, muitos dos caras da tecnologia no Vale do Silício estão procurando maneiras de viver para sempre. Não consigo pensar, diz Musk, em nada pior. Lemos o mito de Sísifo e sabemos como é ruim ser condenado à vida eterna. Então houve uma Grécia antiga, a pessoa que caminhava atrás do rei e dizia, memento mori, lembre-se que você vai morrer. E evitou que as pessoas se perdessem um pouco. Você pensa em legado? A sorte de ser biógrafo é que você sabe qual é o seu legado. Haverá uma estante com pessoas interessantes e você terá inspirado um estudante de biologia de 17 anos em algum lugar a ser o próximo grande bioquímico ou alguém a abrir uma empresa como Elon Musk. E no que penso mais, não direi retribuir, isso é uma coisa tão banal. Voltei para Nova Orleans por um motivo. Em primeiro lugar, o furacão atingiu. E depois do Katrina, fui convidado para ser vice-presidente da autoridade de recuperação. E percebi que tudo o que tenho a meu favor, tudo vem desta linda joia de uma cidade problemática. O colégio maravilhoso que frequentei, as ruas maravilhosas onde aprendi a andar de bicicleta e tem desafios. Nunca vou resolver desafios a nível global, mas posso voltar para casa e dizer que parte do meu legado será: tentei retribuir à minha cidade natal, mesmo ensinando em Tulane, que não conheço. não faça um favor. Eu gosto muito disso, mas é tipo, tudo bem, faço parte de uma comunidade. E acho que perdemos isso na América porque as pessoas que estão sozinhas estão sozinhas porque não fazem parte de uma comunidade. Mas eu tenho todos os meus filhos do ensino médio, amigos, eles ainda estão em Nova Orleans. Tenho minha família, mas também tenho Tulane, instituições em Nova Orleans que estão lá desde sempre. E se posso ajudar o sistema escolar de Nova Orleães, ajudar os programas de capacitação dos jovens, ajudar o centro de inovação em Tulane, estive até na comissão de planeamento urbano, que se preocupa com regulamentos de zoneamento para alugueres de curta duração, você sabe, vai entender. Mas foi tipo, não, mergulhei na minha comunidade, porque minha comunidade foi incrivelmente boa em permitir que eu me tornasse quem me tornei e enfrenta problemas ano após ano, furacão após furacão, garantindo que cada nova geração possa ser criativa. E é uma cidade de criatividade, do jazz à comida, à arquitetura. Então, quando penso nisso, não direi legado, mas o que vou fazer para pagá-lo adiante? Qual é uma forma inferior de dizer legado. Pago adiante voltando ao lugar onde comecei e tentando conhecê-lo pela primeira vez. Isso foi um roubo de uma linha de TS Eliot. Não quero que você pense que pensei nisso.

LEX: Sempre cite suas fontes, agradeço.

WALTER: TS Eliot, se você precisar descobrir , os quatro quartetos, aquela parte no final, que não deixaremos de explorar. E o fim de toda a nossa exploração será regressar ao local onde começámos e conhecê-lo pela primeira vez através do portão desconhecido mas meio lembrado. É simplesmente lindo. E isso tem sido uma inspiração para o que você faz, acho que se for uma peça de Shakespeare, você chamaria de quinto ato. Bem, você volta para o lugar de onde veio e não fica aí sentado se preocupando com o legado, mas você fica aí dizendo: como posso ter certeza de que outra pessoa possa ter uma trajetória mágica começando em Nova Orleans?

LEX: Bem, para mim, você é um dos maiores contadores de histórias de todos os tempos. Eu sou um grande fã.

WALTER: Definitivamente não é verdade, mas é muito gentil da sua parte.

LEX: Veja, você pode ser - Interrompendo brutalmente. Acho que provavelmente Ben Franklin, então não sei quantos anos, 15 anos, Einstein até hoje, sou um grande fã seu. E você é uma das pessoas que pensei que certamente não se rebaixaria a aparecer e conversar comigo. E é apenas um presente gigante para mim.

WALTER: Ei, eu voei para Austin para isso porque sou um grande fã e especialmente um grande fã porque você leva as pessoas a sério e se importa.

LEX: Obrigado mil vezes. Obrigado por me respeitar e por inspirar milhões de pessoas com suas histórias. Novamente, uma narrativa incrível, um ser humano incrível. E obrigado por conversar hoje.

WALTER: Obrigado, Alex.

LEX: Obrigado por ouvir esta conversa com Walter Isaacson para apoiar este podcast. Confira nossos patrocinadores na descrição.E agora deixe-me deixar vocês com uma das minhas citações favoritas de Carl Jung. As pessoas farão qualquer coisa, por mais absurda que seja, para evitar enfrentar suas próprias almas. Um não se tornailuminado imaginando figuras de luz, mas tornando consciente a escuridão. Obrigado por ouvir e esperamos vê-lo na próxima vez.

Portuguese transcription subtitles:

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Espero que com meus livros eu esteja dizendo

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este não é um guia prático,

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mas este é alguém com quem você pode caminhar.

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Você pode ver

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Einstein crescendo como judeu na Alemanha.

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Você pode ver Jennifer Doudna crescendo

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como um estranho ou Leonardo da Vinci ou Elon Musk na violenta África do Sul

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com um

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pai psicologicamente difícil.

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E sair do trem quando for para o anti-apartheid

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show com seu irmão e há

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um homem com uma faca enfiada na cabeça e eles pisam

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na poça de sangue e isso está grudado em suas almas.

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Isso causa

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cicatrizes

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que dura o resto da sua vida.

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E a questão não é

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como você evita ficar com cicatrizes?

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É como você lida com isso?

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A seguir está uma conversa com Walter Isaacson,

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um dos maiores escritores de biografias de todos os tempos.

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Tendo escrito livros incríveis sobre Albert Einstein,

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Steve Jobs,

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Leonardo da Vinci,

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Jennifer Doudna, Benjamin Franklin,

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Henrique Kissinger,

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e agora um novo sobre Elon Musk.

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Conversamos por horas dentro e fora do microfone.

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Tenho certeza que conversaremos muitas outras vezes.

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Walter é um escritor, pensador, observador verdadeiramente especial,

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e ser humano.

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Eu recomendo fortemente que as pessoas leiam seu novo livro sobre Elon.

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Tenho certeza de que haverá controvérsias de curto prazo,

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mas

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a longo prazo, penso que irá inspirar milhões de jovens,

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especialmente com infâncias difíceis,

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com dificuldades em seu entorno ou em suas próprias mentes,

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para enfrentar os problemas mais difíceis do

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mundo e construir soluções para esses problemas,

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não importa quão impossíveis sejam as probabilidades.

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Nesta conversa,

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Walter e eu cobrimos todos os seus livros e usamos histórias pessoais deles para

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falar sobre os princípios maiores de luta pela grandeza na ciência,

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em tecnologia,

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engenharia, arte,

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política,

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e vida.

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Há muitas coisas no novo livro de Elon que achei que seria melhor salvar

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pois quando eu falar diretamente com Elon novamente neste podcast,

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o que será em breve.

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Talvez também seja bom mencionar aqui que minhas amizades com Elon

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nem qualquer outra influência como dinheiro, acesso, fama, poder resultará no sacrifício de minha integridade,

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sempre.

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Eu gosto de celebrar o que há de bom nas pessoas,

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ter empatia e compreender,

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mas também gosto de criticar as pessoas por suas besteiras

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com respeito e com compaixão.

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Se eu falhar,

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Eu falho por falta de habilidade,

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não é falta de integridade.

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Vou trabalhar duro para melhorar.

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Este é o podcast de Lex Friedman.

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Para apoiá-lo, confira nossos patrocinadores na descrição.

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E agora, queridos amigos,

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aqui está Walter Isaacson.

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Qual é o papel de uma infância difícil na vida de grandes homens e mulheres, de grandes mentes?

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Isso é um requisito?

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É um catalisador ou é apenas uma simples coincidência do destino?

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Bem, não é um requisito.

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Algumas pessoas com infâncias felizes que se dão muito bem,

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mas certamente é verdade que muitas pessoas realmente motivadas são motivadas porque estão aproveitando

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os demônios de sua infância.

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Até a frase de Barack Obama nas suas memórias,

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isto é, acho que todo homem de sucesso está tentando corresponder às expectativas de seu pai

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ou viver os pecados de seu pai.

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E para Elon, isso é especialmente verdade porque ele tinha

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uma infância violenta e difícil e um pai muito problemático psicologicamente.

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Ele tem aqueles demônios dançando em sua cabeça

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e aproveitando-os,

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isso é

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parte da razão

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que ele faz mais arriscado, mais aventureiro,

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mais selvagem

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coisas do que talvez eu jamais faria.

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Escrevi que Elon falou sobre seu pai

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e que às vezes parecia uma tortura mental,

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a interação com ele durante sua infância.

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Você pode descrever alguns dos

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coisas que você aprendeu?

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Sim, bem, Elon e Kimball me diriam isso,

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por exemplo,

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quando Elon sofreu bullying no parquinho

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e um dia foi empurrado por alguns degraus de concreto e teve seu rosto esmurrado

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tão mal que Kimball disse:

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Eu realmente não consegui reconhecê-lo.

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Quero dizer, ele estava no hospital

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por quase uma semana.

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Mas quando ele voltou para casa,

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Elon teve que ficar na frente de seu pai e de seu

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pai o repreendeu por mais de uma hora

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e disse que ele era estúpido e ficou do lado do

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pessoa que o espancou.

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Esse é provavelmente um dos acontecimentos mais traumáticos da vida de Elon.

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Sim.

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E também há a escola veld,

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que é uma espécie de campo paramilitar que os jovens do Sul

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Meninos africanos foram enviados para.

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E em um ponto,

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ele era magro.

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Ele é muito ruim em captar dicas sociais

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e sinais emocionais.

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Ele fala sobre ser Asperger.

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E então ele fica traumatizado em um acampamento como esse.

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Mas na segunda vez que ele foi,

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ele ficou maior.

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Ele subiu quase um metro e oitenta e aprendeu

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um pouco de judô.

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E ele percebeu que se estivesse apanhando,

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isso pode machucá-lo,

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mas ele apenas dava um soco no nariz da pessoa com a maior força possível.

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Para que

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sensação de sempre revidar

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também está enraizado em Elon.

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Passei muito tempo conversando com Errol Musk,

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o pai dele.

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Elon não fala mais com Errol Musk, seu pai,

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nem Kimball.

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Já se passaram anos.

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E Errol nem tem o e-mail de Elon.

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Então, muitas vezes,

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Errol me enviará e-mails.

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E Errol tinha um desses

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Personalidades de Jekyll e Hyde.

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Ele era

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uma grande mente da engenharia e especialmente da ciência dos materiais.

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Eu sabia como construir um acampamento na África do Sul usando mica e como ela não conduziria o calor.

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Mas ele também entraria nesses períodos sombrios

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em que ele seria apenas psicologicamente abusivo.

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E claro,

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Maio Musk me diz,

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sua mãe, que se divorciou de Errol, disse logo:

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o perigo para Elon é que ele se torne seu pai.

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E de vez em quando você esteve com ele tanto

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muito, Lex, e você o conhece bem.

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Ele até falará com você sobre os demônios,

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sobre Diablo dançando em

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a sua cabeça.

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Quero dizer, ele entende, ele é autoconsciente,

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mas você provavelmente já o viu em momentos onde

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aqueles demônios assumem o controle e ele fica muito sombrio e quieto.

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E Grimes

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diz, posso contar uma

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um ou dois minutos de antecedência quando o modo demoníaco estiver prestes a acontecer.

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E ele ficará um pouco sombrio.

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Eu estava aqui às

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Austin uma vez jantando com um grupo.

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E você poderia dizer que de repente algo o desencadeou

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e ele ia escurecer.

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Eu assisti isso em reuniões onde alguém diria:

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não podemos fazer essa parte

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por menos de US$ 200 ou não, isso está errado.

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E ele vai repreendê-los.

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E então ele sai dessa.

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Como você também sabe disso, a grande foto onde de repente ele está mostrando uma peça do Monty Python em seu telefone e

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ele está brincando sobre as coisas.

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Então eu acho que saindo da infância,

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havia muitas facetas,

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talvez até muitas personalidades, o modo de engenharia,

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o modo bobo, o modo carismático, o modo visionário,

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mas também o demônio no modo escuro.

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Uma citação que você citou sobre Elon realmente se destacou para mim.

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Eu esqueci de quem era,

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mas dentro do homem,

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ele ainda está lá quando criança,

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a criança parada na frente de seu pai.

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Essa foi Tallulah,

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sua segunda esposa.

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E ela é ótima.

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Ela é uma atriz inglesa.

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Eles foram casados duas vezes, na verdade.

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E Tallulah disse que é só ele desde a infância.

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Ele é um viciado em drama.

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Kimball também diz isso.

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E eu perguntei por quê.

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E Tallulah disse

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para ele,

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amor e família

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estão associados a esses tormentos psicológicos.

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E de muitas maneiras,

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ele canalizará.

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Quero dizer, Tallulah estaria com ele em 2008, quando a empresa estivesse falindo ou o que quer que seja.

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foram ou mais tarde.

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E ele ficaria tão estressado que vomitaria.

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E então ele canalizaria as coisas

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que seu pai havia dito,

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usar frases que seu pai havia dito a ele.

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E então ela me disse,

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bem no fundo do homem está esse filho ainda parado na frente de seu pai.

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Até que ponto isso é verdade para muitos de nós, você acha?

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Eu acho que é verdade,

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mas de muitas maneiras diferentes.

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Direi algo pessoal,

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que é que eu estava

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abençoado e talvez seja uma desvantagem também,

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com o fato de que eu tive o maior

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pai que você poderia imaginar e mãe.

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Eles eram as pessoas mais gentis que você poderia querer

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encontrar.

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Cresci em um lugar mágico em Nova Orleans.

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Meu pai era engenheiro, engenheiro elétrico.

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E ele sempre foi gentil.

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Talvez

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Não sou tão motivado ou tão louco.

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Eu não tenho que provar coisas.

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Então posso escrever sobre Elon Musk.

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Posso escrever sobre Einstein ou Steve Jobs

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ou Leonardo da Vinci,

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quem, como você sabe,

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foi totalmente dilacerado por demônios e teve diferentes dificuldades

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situações de infância, nem sequer legitimadas pelo pai.

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Então, às vezes, aqueles de nós que têm sorte

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o suficiente para ter realmente gentil,

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doce infância,

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crescemos com menos demônios,

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mas crescemos com

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menos unidades e acabamos talvez

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sendo Boswell e não sendo Dr.

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Johnson.

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Acabamos sendo o observador,

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não sendo o fazedor.

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E por isso sempre respeito quem está na arena.

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Você não se vê como um homem na arena.

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eu tenho tido

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um suave,

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doce carreira

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e tenho que cobrir pessoas realmente interessantes,

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mas nunca disparei um foguete que algum dia pudesse chegar a Marte.

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Eu nunca nos mudei para

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o ar dos veículos elétricos.

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Nunca fiquei acordado a noite toda no chão de fábrica.

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Eu não tenho exatamente isso

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as unidades ou o

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vício em risco.

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Quero dizer, Elon é viciado em risco.

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Ele é viciado em aventura.

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Eu, se vejo algo arriscado,

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Passo algum tempo calculando,

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ok, de cabeça para baixo aqui.

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Mas essa é outra razão pela qual pessoas como Elon Musk realizam tarefas

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e pessoas como eu escrevem sobre Elon Musk.

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Um outro aspecto disso,

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dada uma infância difícil,

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seja Elon ou DaVinci,

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Eu me pergunto se há alguma sabedoria,

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alguns conselhos quase que você pode desenhar,

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que você pode dar a pessoas com infâncias difíceis.

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Acho que todos nós temos demônios,

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mesmo aqueles de nós que cresceram em uma parte mágica do Novo

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Orleans com pais queridos.

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Todos nós temos demônios.

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A primeira regra na vida é controlar seus demônios.

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Saiba que você é ambicioso ou não ambicioso, ou é preguiçoso ou algo assim.

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Leonardo DaVinci sabia que era um procrastinador.

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Eu penso

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é útil saber

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o que comeu em você,

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saiba como aproveitá-lo.

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Saiba também no que você é bom.

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Vou tomar Musk como outro exemplo.

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Sou um pouco mais parecido com Kimball Musk

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do que Elom.

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Talvez eu tenha superado o gene da empatia.

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O que isso significa?

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Bem,

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significa que eu estava bem quando dirigi a Time Magazine.

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Era um grupo de cerca de 150 pessoas na redação e

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Eu conhecia todos eles e

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nós nos divertimos muito.

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Quando fui para a CNN,

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eu não fui muito bom

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em ser gerente ou executivo de uma organização.

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Eu me importei um pouco demais

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que as pessoas não ficassem irritadas ou bravas comigo.

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Elon disse isso sobre John McNeil,

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por exemplo, quem foi presidente da Tesla.

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Está no livro.

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Conversei com John McNeil há muito tempo

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e ele diz:

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Elon apenas

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demitiria pessoas.

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Ele é realmente duro com as pessoas.

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00:13:01,380 --> 00:13:04,400
Ele não tinha empatia pelas pessoas à sua frente.

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Elon diz, sim, está certo.

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00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:08,780
John McNeil não podia demitir pessoas.

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Ele se preocupava mais em agradar as pessoas à sua frente

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do que agradar a empresa inteira ou fazer as coisas.

296
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Ser superdotado com o desejo de agradar as pessoas pode torná-lo um gerente menos duro.

297
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Isso não significa que não existam pessoas excelentes que sejam superdotadas.

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Bem Franklin,

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dotado do desejo de agradar as pessoas.

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00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:38,330
A pior crítica feita por John Adams e outros a ele foi que ele estava insinuando,

301
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,620
o que significava que ele estava sempre tentando

302
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,160
fazer com que as pessoas gostem dele.

303
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,320
Mas isso acabou por ser uma coisa boa quando eles não conseguem descobrir o grande estado,

304
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,480
pequena questão de estado na Convenção Constitucional,

305
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,660
quando não conseguem entender o Tratado de Paris, seja ele qual for,

306
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,940
ele une as pessoas e esse é o seu superpoder.

307
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:02,020
Então, voltando às lições que você perguntou,

308
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,800
e a primeira foi controlar seus demônios.

309
00:14:05,780 --> 00:14:09,080
A segunda é conhecer seus pontos fortes e seu superpoder.

310
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:11,840
Meu superpoder

311
00:14:12,460 --> 00:14:14,120
definitivamente não é ser um gerente duro.

312
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,980
Depois de administrar a CNN por um tempo, eu disse, ok,

313
00:14:17,580 --> 00:14:19,280
Eu provei que não

314
00:14:19,300 --> 00:14:21,120
aproveite ou saiba fazer isso bem.

315
00:14:22,060 --> 00:14:25,340
Tenho outros talentos?

316
00:14:25,420 --> 00:14:26,120
Sim, acho que tenho

317
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,820
o talento para observar as pessoas bem de perto,

318
00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,760
escrever sobre isso de forma direta,

319
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:34,220
mas espero um estilo narrativo interessante.

320
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:35,380
Isso é um poder.

321
00:14:35,780 --> 00:14:37,760
É totalmente diferente de administrar uma organização.

322
00:14:38,140 --> 00:14:46,840
Levei três anos dirigindo a CNN para perceber que não fui talhado para ser um executivo em um mundo realmente

323
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:48,900
alta intensidade

324
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,400
situações.

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00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,860
Elon Musk é escolhido para ser executivo em atividades altamente intensas

326
00:14:55,860 --> 00:14:59,480
situações tanto que quando as coisas ficam menos intensas,

327
00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:02,360
quando eles realmente estão fabricando carros suficientes e

328
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:05,400
foguetes estão subindo e pousando,

329
00:15:06,340 --> 00:15:08,500
ele pensa em outra coisa para poder surgir

330
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:09,660
e ter mais intensidade.

331
00:15:09,860 --> 00:15:15,220
Ele é viciado em intensidade e esse é seu superpoder,

332
00:15:15,260 --> 00:15:18,320
o que é muito maior do que o superpoder de ser um bom observador.

333
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:19,920
Mas eu acho também

334
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,040
para construir sobre isso,

335
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:23,600
não é só vício

336
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,440
ao risco e ao drama.

337
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,560
Sempre há uma grande missão

338
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:30,940
acima dele.

339
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:38,240
Então, eu diria que é uma empatia pelas pessoas no quadro geral.

340
00:15:39,180 --> 00:15:43,480
É mais uma empatia para com a humanidade do que uma empatia para com

341
00:15:44,020 --> 00:15:45,080
os três ou quatro humanos

342
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,280
que pode estar sentado na sala de conferências com você.

343
00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:49,120
E isso é um grande negócio.

344
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:50,900
Você vê isso em muito

345
00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:51,220
de pessoas.

346
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,500
Você vê, Bill Gates, Larry Summers,

347
00:15:56,020 --> 00:15:56,560
Elon Musk.

348
00:15:57,660 --> 00:16:01,500
Eles sempre têm empatia por esses

349
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,600
grandes objetivos da humanidade.

350
00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:09,800
E às vezes eles podem não ter noção das emoções das pessoas à sua frente.

351
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:11,200
deles ou insensíveis às vezes.

352
00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:13,640
Musk, como você disse,

353
00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:18,640
é movido pela missão mais do que qualquer pessoa que já vi.

354
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:20,840
E não é só missão,

355
00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:22,220
é como missões cósmicas,

356
00:16:23,420 --> 00:16:25,420
o que significa que ele tem três realmente grandes

357
00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:26,460
missões.

358
00:16:26,900 --> 00:16:27,400
Um

359
00:16:28,180 --> 00:16:31,400
é fazer dos humanos uma civilização espacial,

360
00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:35,400
torne-nos multiplanetários ou leve-nos a Marte.

361
00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:39,760
O número dois é trazer-nos para a era da energia sustentável,

362
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,780
para nos trazer para a era dos veículos elétricos e dos telhados solares e

363
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:46,260
baterias.

364
00:16:47,020 --> 00:16:48,300
E o terceiro é fazer

365
00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:50,520
certeza de que a inteligência artificial

366
00:16:51,060 --> 00:16:53,700
é seguro e está alinhado com os valores humanos.

367
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,820
E de vez em quando eu conversava com ele e falávamos sobre satélites Starlink ou algo assim.

368
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,960
Ou ele estaria empurrando as pessoas à sua frente na SpaceX

369
00:17:04,540 --> 00:17:05,680
e dizendo, se você fizer isso,

370
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:06,640
nunca chegaremos

371
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:07,600
Marte em nossa vida.

372
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,660
E então ele daria a palestra o quão importante era para a consciência humana

373
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,500
chegar a Marte durante a nossa vida.

374
00:17:13,980 --> 00:17:17,800
E estou pensando, ok, esta é a conversa estimulante de alguém tentando

375
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:23,060
inspire uma equipe ou talvez seja um tipo de pontificação que você faz em um podcast.

376
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:24,660
Mas tipo no dia 20

377
00:17:24,780 --> 00:17:26,460
vez que o observei, percebi,

378
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:27,080
OK,

379
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,240
Eu acredito nisso.

380
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,120
Na verdade, ele é movido por isso.

381
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:32,120
Ele é

382
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:38,620
frustrado e irritado porque por causa desta pequena decisão de engenharia específica,

383
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,820
a grande missão não será cumprida.

384
00:17:41,940 --> 00:17:42,720
Não é uma conversa estimulante.

385
00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:43,960
É uma frustração literal.

386
00:17:45,020 --> 00:17:46,900
E impaciência, uma frustração.

387
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:55,040
E também é provavelmente a coisa mais profundamente enraizada nele

388
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:56,720
é a sua missão.

389
00:17:57,140 --> 00:18:02,780
A certa altura, ele brincou comigo sobre o quanto adorava ler quadrinhos quando criança.

390
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:05,220
E ele disse, todas as pessoas nos quadrinhos,

391
00:18:05,980 --> 00:18:07,540
eles estão tentando salvar o mundo,

392
00:18:07,580 --> 00:18:10,760
mas eles estão usando cuecas por fora e parecem ridículos.

393
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,140
E então ele fez uma pausa e disse:

394
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,220
mas eles estão tentando salvar o mundo.

395
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,240
E seja Starlink na Ucrânia

396
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:24,720
ou uma nave estelar indo para Marte ou tentando obter um novo Tesla global,

397
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:30,120
Acho que ele tem uma noção épica do papel que vai desempenhar

398
00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:33,080
em ajudar a humanidade em grandes coisas.

399
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:35,380
E gosto

400
00:18:36,060 --> 00:18:38,520
os personagens dos quadrinhos,

401
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:40,420
às vezes é ridículo,

402
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,060
mas às vezes também é verdade.

403
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:45,600
Quando eu estava lendo esta parte do livro,

404
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,780
Estava pensando em todos os jovens que estão

405
00:18:51,140 --> 00:18:52,180
lutando desta forma.

406
00:18:52,220 --> 00:18:54,740
E acho que muitas pessoas estão de maneiras diferentes,

407
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,080
se eles crescem sem pai,

408
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,280
se eles cresceram com abuso físico, emocional e mental

409
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:00,900
ou demônios de qualquer espécie,

410
00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:01,740
como você falou.

411
00:19:02,220 --> 00:19:04,380
E é muito doloroso ler,

412
00:19:04,380 --> 00:19:06,460
mas também muito inspirador

413
00:19:07,420 --> 00:19:08,480
que se você

414
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,800
meio que caminhar lado a lado com esses demônios,

415
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,620
se você não deixar

416
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:17,480
essa dor quebra você

417
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:19,280
ou de alguma forma canalizá-lo,

418
00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:20,660
se você pode colocar desta forma,

419
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:21,680
que você pode alcançar,

420
00:19:21,860 --> 00:19:23,340
você pode fazer grandes coisas neste mundo.

421
00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:27,560
Bem, essa é uma visão épica do motivo pelo qual escrevemos

422
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,420
biografia, que é mais épica do que eu imaginava.

423
00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:32,900
Então eu digo obrigado

424
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,260
porque de certa forma o que você está tentando fazer é dizer,

425
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,760
ok, quero dizer, Leonardo, você fala sobre ser um desajustado,

426
00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:42,720
ele nasceu ilegítimo

427
00:19:43,540 --> 00:19:48,180
na vila de Vinci e ele é gay e é canhoto e está distraído

428
00:19:48,980 --> 00:19:51,960
e seu pai não o legitimará.

429
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:58,980
E então ele vai para a cidade de Florença e se torna

430
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,720
o maior artista e engenheiro

431
00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:03,560
daquela parte do Renascimento.

432
00:20:05,220 --> 00:20:06,920
Espero que este livro inspire.

433
00:20:06,980 --> 00:20:07,820
Jennifer Doudna,

434
00:20:08,660 --> 00:20:12,620
o pioneiro da edição genética que ajuda a descobrir o CRISPR,

435
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:14,120
ferramenta de edição genética,

436
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,540
que meu livro, The Code Breaker,

437
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,520
ela cresceu se sentindo uma desajustada no Havaí,

438
00:20:20,620 --> 00:20:23,860
em uma vila polinésia sendo a única pessoa branca

439
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,060
e também tentando fazer jus a um pai que a pressionou.

440
00:20:27,220 --> 00:20:30,360
Então, se as pessoas puderem ler os livros,

441
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:33,060
e eu deveria ter dito sobre Jennifer Doudna,

442
00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:36,740
o que quero dizer é que ela foi informada pelo orientador escolar,

443
00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:38,120
não, meninas não fazem ciência.

444
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:39,760
Você sabe, a ciência não é para meninas.

445
00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:41,480
Você não vai fazer matemática ou ciências.

446
00:20:42,220 --> 00:20:44,900
E então isso a leva a dizer, tudo bem,

447
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:47,060
Vou fazer matemática e ciências.

448
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:48,920
Só para interromper bem rápido,

449
00:20:49,740 --> 00:20:50,560
mas Jennifer Doudna,

450
00:20:50,940 --> 00:20:54,200
você escreveu um livro incrível sobre ela, ganhadora do Prêmio Nobel,

451
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,200
Desenvolvedor CRISPR, simplesmente incrível, um dos grandes cientistas do século XXI.

452
00:20:58,520 --> 00:20:58,800
Certo.

453
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,800
E estou falando de quando Jennifer Doudna era jovem

454
00:21:02,340 --> 00:21:03,600
e ela sentiu realmente,

455
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,480
realmente fora do lugar,

456
00:21:04,780 --> 00:21:08,600
como você e eu e muitas pessoas quando se sentem assim,

457
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:09,460
eles leem livros,

458
00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:11,540
eles vão para o enrolamento com o livro.

459
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,300
Então o pai dela deixa cair um livro na cama dela chamado The Double Helix,

460
00:21:15,420 --> 00:21:23,240
o livro de James Watson sobre a descoberta da estrutura do DNA por ele e Rosalind Franklin e Francis Crick.

461
00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:27,020
E ela percebe, oh meu Deus,

462
00:21:27,660 --> 00:21:29,080
as meninas podem se tornar cientistas.

463
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,020
Meu orientador escolar está errado.

464
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,960
Então eu acho que livros,

465
00:21:36,980 --> 00:21:38,820
como ela leu este livro,

466
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,120
e mesmo que seja uma história em quadrinhos,

467
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,720
como Elon Musk leu,

468
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,300
os livros às vezes podem inspirar você.

469
00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:48,660
E cada um dos meus livros é sobre pessoas que estão

470
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:50,340
totalmente inovador,

471
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,200
que não eram apenas inteligentes,

472
00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:54,220
porque nenhum de nós vai ser

473
00:21:54,220 --> 00:21:57,180
capaz de igualar Einstein e o poder de processamento mental.

474
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,060
Mas podemos ser tão curiosos quanto ele

475
00:22:01,060 --> 00:22:04,060
e criativo e pensa fora da caixa como ele fez,

476
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,280
ou disse Steve Jobs, pense diferente.

477
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,160
E então espero que com meus livros, estou dizendo

478
00:22:11,660 --> 00:22:13,380
este não é um guia prático,

479
00:22:13,860 --> 00:22:14,660
mas isso é alguém

480
00:22:14,660 --> 00:22:15,860
você pode caminhar ao lado.

481
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:17,460
Você pode ver

482
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,080
Einstein crescendo como judeu na Alemanha.

483
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:22,740
Você pode ver Jennifer

484
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:28,660
Doudna crescendo como um estranho ou Leonardo da Vinci ou Elon Musk

485
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,580
na realmente violenta África do Sul

486
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:34,960
com um pai psicologicamente difícil.

487
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,340
E sair do trem quando for para o anti-apartheid

488
00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:39,500
concerto com seu irmão,

489
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:40,460
e há

490
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,940
um homem com uma faca enfiada na cabeça,

491
00:22:44,340 --> 00:22:47,340
e eles entram na poça de sangue e isso gruda em suas almas.

492
00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:49,580
Isso causa

493
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,580
cicatrizes

494
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,020
que dura o resto da sua vida.

495
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,420
E a questão não é

496
00:22:56,940 --> 00:22:59,060
como você evita ficar com cicatrizes?

497
00:22:59,260 --> 00:23:00,820
É como você lida com isso?

498
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:02,600
Einstein também

499
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:11,040
uma das minhas, e é difícil escolher a minha favorita de suas biografias, mas Einstein,

500
00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:14,320
Quero dizer, você realmente pinta o retrato de outra pessoa,

501
00:23:15,140 --> 00:23:16,440
Eu não quero chamá-lo de desajustado,

502
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:23,000
mas uma pessoa que não tem necessariamente uma trajetória padrão de sucesso na vida.

503
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,140
Então isso é extremamente inspirador.

504
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,420
Não sei exatamente que pergunta fazer.

505
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:32,000
Há um milhão.

506
00:23:32,020 --> 00:23:33,980
Bem, vou falar sobre o desajustado por um segundo,

507
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:36,240
porque falamos sobre Leonardo ser assim.

508
00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:41,400
Einstein é judeu na Alemanha num momento em que tudo começa a ficar difícil.

509
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:43,980
Ele é lento em aprender a falar

510
00:23:44,660 --> 00:23:46,220
e ele é um pensador visual.

511
00:23:46,260 --> 00:23:48,400
Então ele está sempre sonhando acordado e imaginando coisas.

512
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,640
A primeira vez que ele se inscreveu na Politécnica de Zurique,

513
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,800
porque ele foge do alemão

514
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,180
sistema educacional porque é muito aprendizado mecânico.

515
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:01,600
Ele é rejeitado pela Polytech de Zurique.

516
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,160
Agora é a segunda melhor escola de Zurique e estão rejeitando Einstein.

517
00:24:05,260 --> 00:24:06,120
Eu tentei encontrar,

518
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:10,240
mas não consegui o nome do conselheiro de admissões da Politécnica de Zurique.

519
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:11,960
Como você rejeitou Einstein.

520
00:24:12,620 --> 00:24:15,660
E então ele não termina na metade superior da turma.

521
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:17,920
E uma vez que ele faz

522
00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:22,440
e ele faz pós-graduação, eles não aceitam a dissertação dele.

523
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:23,940
Então ele não consegue um emprego.

524
00:24:23,980 --> 00:24:25,340
Ele não está ensinando isso.

525
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:28,560
Ele até tenta cerca de 14 escolas secundárias diferentes,

526
00:24:28,780 --> 00:24:31,260
ginásio para conseguir um emprego e eles

527
00:24:31,260 --> 00:24:31,980
não vai levá-lo.

528
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:36,160
Então ele é um examinador de terceira classe no escritório de patentes suíço em 1905.

529
00:24:36,980 --> 00:24:40,660
Terceira turma porque rejeitaram a sua tese de doutoramento.

530
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,120
E então ele não pode ser de segunda ou primeira classe

531
00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:45,620
porque ele não tem doutorado.

532
00:24:46,260 --> 00:24:47,940
E ainda assim ele está sentado ali no banquinho

533
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,000
o escritório de patentes em 1905

534
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:51,420
e escreve

535
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:55,760
três artigos que transformam totalmente a ciência.

536
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:58,240
E se você está pensando em ser

537
00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:02,180
incompreendido ou desvalorizado em 1906,

538
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:03,040
ele ainda é um terceiro

539
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:03,580
patente de classe.

540
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,020
Em 1907, ele ainda é.

541
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,400
Demorou até 1909 para que as pessoas percebessem que isso

542
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,540
A noção da teoria da relatividade pode estar correta e pode derrubar toda a física newtoniana.

543
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,240
Como isso é possível

544
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,320
para que três dos maiores artigos da história da ciência fossem escritos

545
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,440
em um ano por esta pessoa?

546
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,460
Existem alguns insights,

547
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,100
sabedorias que você desenha?

548
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,020
Além disso, ele, desempregado, é examinador de patentes.

549
00:25:29,140 --> 00:25:30,480
E há realmente três papéis,

550
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:31,880
mas também há um adendo

551
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,420
porque uma vez que você descobre a teoria quântica e depois descobre a relatividade

552
00:25:36,420 --> 00:25:40,180
e você está entendendo as equações de Maxwell e a velocidade da luz,

553
00:25:41,140 --> 00:25:42,940
ele faz um pequeno adendo.

554
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,680
Essa é a equação mais famosa de toda a física,

555
00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:48,480
que é E igual a MC ao quadrado.

556
00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:50,600
Então é um ano muito bom.

557
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,900
Em parte começa porque ele é um pensador visual.

558
00:25:54,940 --> 00:25:56,160
E acho que foi útil

559
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:02,800
que ele estava no escritório de patentes, em vez de ser o acólito de algum professor do

560
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,980
academia onde ele deveria seguir as regras.

561
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,560
E então o escritório de patentes disse fazer

562
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:12,300
dispositivos para sincronizar relógios porque os suíços acabaram de adotar fusos horários padrão

563
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,300
e os suíços, como sabem, tendem a ser bastante suíços.

564
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:16,700
Eles se importam se isso acontecer

565
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:18,480
a hora em Basileia,

566
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:20,880
deve fazer o mesmo e queimar exatamente no final.

567
00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:24,120
Então você tem que enviar um sinal luminoso entre dois relógios distantes.

568
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,360
E ele está visualizando como seria andar ao lado de um feixe de luz.

569
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,900
Ele diz, bem, se você alcançar isso,

570
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:32,900
se você for quase tão rápido,

571
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:33,840
parecerá estacionário.

572
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,220
Mas as equações de Maxwell

573
00:26:35,780 --> 00:26:36,760
não permita isso.

574
00:26:36,780 --> 00:26:37,200
E ele disse,

575
00:26:37,580 --> 00:26:40,440
ele está fazendo minha palma suar por eu estar tão preocupado.

576
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,500
E então ele finalmente descobriu, porque está olhando para esses dispositivos para sincronizar relógios,

577
00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:48,300
que se você estiver viajando muito, muito rápido,

578
00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:52,840
o que parece síncrono para você ou sincronizado para você é

579
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,280
diferente do que para alguém viajando muito rápido na outra direção.

580
00:26:56,900 --> 00:26:58,940
E ele dá o salto mental dessa vez

581
00:26:59,940 --> 00:27:02,120
que a velocidade da luz é sempre constante,

582
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,600
mas o tempo é relativo dependendo do seu estado de movimento.

583
00:27:05,220 --> 00:27:08,640
Então foi esse tipo de pensamento inovador, aqueles saltos

584
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,140
que fez de 1905 o seu ano milagroso.

585
00:27:12,740 --> 00:27:13,920
Da mesma forma com Musk,

586
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:15,400
Quero dizer,

587
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,000
depois da General Motors e da Ford,

588
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,060
todo mundo desiste dos veículos elétricos

589
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:21,740
para apenas

590
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:22,760
dizer,

591
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:24,960
Eu sei como vamos ter um caminho

592
00:27:25,580 --> 00:27:30,660
mudar toda a trajetória do mundo para a era dos veículos elétricos.

593
00:27:31,340 --> 00:27:32,840
E então, quando ele voltar da Rússia,

594
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:33,980
onde ele tentou comprar

595
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,960
um pequeno foguete para que ele pudesse enviar uma estufa experimental para Marte,

596
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,500
e eles estavam zombando

597
00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:44,460
eles e realmente cuspiu neles em um almoço bêbado.

598
00:27:45,220 --> 00:27:46,720
Isso é muito fortuito

599
00:27:47,420 --> 00:27:49,980
porque no caminho de volta para casa no avião,

600
00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:52,100
no voo da Delta Airlines,

601
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,960
ele gosta de fazer cálculos de quantos materiais,

602
00:27:56,140 --> 00:27:57,760
quanto metal, quanto combustível,

603
00:27:58,460 --> 00:28:00,100
quanto isso realmente custaria.

604
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:08,200
E então ele está visualizando coisas que outras pessoas diriam que são impossíveis.

605
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,180
É o que os amigos de Steve Jobs chamavam de campo de distorção da realidade.

606
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:14,820
E isso deixou as pessoas loucas.

607
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:19,800
Isso os deixou loucos, mas também os levou a fazer coisas que achavam que não seriam capazes de fazer.

608
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:21,680
Você disse pensamento visual.

609
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:27,120
Eu me pergunto se você viu paralelos entre os diferentes estilos e tipos de pensamento

610
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:34,220
que operam as mentes dessas pessoas.

611
00:28:34,860 --> 00:28:38,940
Então, há paralelos que você vê entre Elon, Steve Jobs,

612
00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:40,940
Einstein, Da Vinci,

613
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,460
especificamente em

614
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:43,860
como eles pensam?

615
00:28:44,460 --> 00:28:46,480
Acho que todos eram pensadores visuais,

616
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:49,320
talvez vindo de pequenas deficiências quando crianças,

617
00:28:50,180 --> 00:28:54,380
o que significa que Leonardo era canhoto e um pouco dislético, eu acho.

618
00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:58,340
E certamente Einstein tinha callia.

619
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:59,920
Ele repetia coisas.

620
00:28:59,980 --> 00:29:02,020
Ele demorou a aprender a falar.

621
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,980
Então acho que visualizar ajuda muito.

622
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:07,780
E com Almíscar,

623
00:29:09,140 --> 00:29:12,280
Eu vejo isso o tempo todo quando estou andando pelas linhas da fábrica com ele

624
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,960
ou no desenvolvimento de produtos,

625
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,300
para onde ele vai olhar,

626
00:29:17,460 --> 00:29:22,680
digamos, o escudo térmico sob o motor Raptor de um propulsor da nave estelar.

627
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:26,200
E ele dirá: por que tem que ser assim?

628
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,400
Não poderíamos apará-lo desta forma?

629
00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:28,130
Ou mesmo

630
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,400
livre-se dessa parte.

631
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,000
E ele pode visualizar a ciência material.

632
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:33,300
Há

633
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:41,120
pequenas anedotas no meu livro, mas a certa altura ele está na linha Tesla e eles estão tentando conseguir 5.000 carros

634
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,640
uma semana em 2018.

635
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:44,560
É uma situação de vida ou morte.

636
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,900
E ele está olhando para as máquinas que estão

637
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,820
aparafusando algo no chassi.

638
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,780
E Lars Moravey, um dos seus grandes tenentes,

639
00:29:56,060 --> 00:29:58,020
vem e eles têm que invocá-lo.

640
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:58,360
E ele diz:

641
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,920
por que há seis parafusos aqui?

642
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,120
E Lars e outros explicaram,

643
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,720
bem, para os testes de colisão ou qualquer outra coisa,

644
00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:09,240
a pressão seria desta forma,

645
00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:09,740
então você tem que fazer isso.

646
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:10,500
E eles eram blá,

647
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:11,120
Blá blá blá blá.

648
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:12,860
E ele disse, não.

649
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:14,460
Se você visualizá-lo,

650
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,600
você verá se há um acidente,

651
00:30:17,420 --> 00:30:20,500
a força iria para um lado e para outro.

652
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,680
E isso pode ser feito com quatro parafusos.

653
00:30:23,940 --> 00:30:25,780
Agora isso parece arriscado.

654
00:30:25,940 --> 00:30:27,560
E eles vão testar e projetar,

655
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:28,420
mas acontece que está certo.

656
00:30:28,940 --> 00:30:30,180
Eu sei que isso parece menor,

657
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,540
mas eu poderia te dar 500 desses,

658
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:34,620
onde em qualquer dia,

659
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,740
ele está visualizando a física

660
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,200
de um problema de engenharia ou fabricação.

661
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,020
Isso parece muito mundano.

662
00:30:45,020 --> 00:30:45,900
Mas por mim,

663
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,220
se você disser o que o torna especial,

664
00:30:48,580 --> 00:30:50,000
há uma coisa voltada para a missão.

665
00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:51,600
Eu te dou muitas razões,

666
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:58,180
mas uma das razões é que ele não se preocupa apenas com o design do produto,

667
00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:02,760
mas visualizando a fabricação do produto,

668
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,820
a máquina que faz a máquina.

669
00:31:05,220 --> 00:31:06,220
E foi isso que falhamos

670
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,660
fazer na América nos últimos 40 anos.

671
00:31:08,820 --> 00:31:10,240
Terceirizamos muita fabricação.

672
00:31:10,820 --> 00:31:12,000
Eu não acho que você pode

673
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,220
seja um bom inovador

674
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,540
se você não sabe como fazer as coisas que está projetando.

675
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:23,840
E é por isso que Musk coloca sua mesa de designer bem ao lado das linhas de montagem nas fábricas, para que

676
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,020
que eles têm que visualizar o que desenharam

677
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,660
à medida que se torna o objeto físico.

678
00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:33,980
Então, entender tudo, desde a física até o software,

679
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:34,980
é como se fosse de ponta a ponta.

680
00:31:35,380 --> 00:31:39,260
Bem, ter um controle de ponta a ponta é importante,

681
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,180
certamente com Steve Jobs.

682
00:31:41,660 --> 00:31:42,940
Estou olhando meu iPhone aqui.

683
00:31:43,380 --> 00:31:43,960
É um grande negócio.

684
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:50,100
Esse hardware só funciona com software da Apple e, por um tempo, com a loja iTunes.

685
00:31:52,210 --> 00:31:58,440
Então ele tem uma ponta a ponta que faz com que pareça um jardim Zen em Kyoto, com uma curadoria muito cuidadosa,

686
00:31:58,980 --> 00:31:59,940
mas uma coisa linda.

687
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:06,320
Para Musk, quando esteve pela primeira vez na Tesla e antes de ser CEO,

688
00:32:06,460 --> 00:32:07,120
quando ele era apenas

689
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,280
o presidente executivo e

690
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,440
basicamente o financeiro que o financia,

691
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:13,820
eles estavam terceirizando tudo.

692
00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:18,880
Eles estavam fabricando as baterias no Japão e a bateria estaria em alguma churrascaria no

693
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:26,180
Tailândia e enviado para a fábrica da Lotus na Inglaterra para ser colocado em um chassi Lotus Elise e depois mencionado.

694
00:32:26,860 --> 00:32:28,700
Isso foi um pesadelo.

695
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,920
Você não tinha controle de ponta a ponta do processo de fabricação.

696
00:32:33,460 --> 00:32:35,180
Então ele vai para o outro extremo.

697
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:41,040
Ele comprou uma fábrica da Toyota em Fremont e quer fazer tudo internamente,

698
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:41,760
o software

699
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,040
internamente,

700
00:32:43,420 --> 00:32:44,580
a pintura interna,

701
00:32:45,620 --> 00:32:48,640
a bateria.

702
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:50,480
Ele fabrica suas próprias baterias.

703
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,740
E acho que o controle de ponta a ponta faz parte da personalidade dele.

704
00:32:57,660 --> 00:32:58,380
Mas isso

705
00:32:58,980 --> 00:33:01,480
também permitiria Tesla

706
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:03,040
ser inovador.

707
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:05,000
Sim, eu tenho que ver

708
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,320
e entender em detalhes um

709
00:33:10,660 --> 00:33:13,180
exemplo disso, que é o desenvolvimento do

710
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:14,420
cérebro do carro

711
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,440
no piloto automático, passando do olho móvel

712
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,520
construir internamente o sistema de piloto automático para

713
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,360
basicamente se livrando de todos os sensores que não são

714
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,220
rico em dados para torná-lo amigável à IA,

715
00:33:31,940 --> 00:33:33,780
meio que dizendo que podemos fazer tudo com visão.

716
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:35,220
E como você disse,

717
00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:36,700
removendo alguns dos parafusos.

718
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,380
Então, às vezes são coisas pequenas,

719
00:33:38,460 --> 00:33:41,500
mas às vezes são coisas realmente grandes, como se livrar do radar.

720
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,720
Bem, apenas a visão se livrar do radar é enorme

721
00:33:45,540 --> 00:33:47,040
e todo mundo é contra.

722
00:33:47,220 --> 00:33:48,900
Todo mundo. E isso ainda está lutando um pouco.

723
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,620
Eles ainda estão tentando fazer uma próxima geração,

724
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:52,360
alguma forma de radar,

725
00:33:52,620 --> 00:33:54,320
mas ele volta

726
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:55,220
aos primeiros princípios.

727
00:33:55,820 --> 00:33:56,940
Estamos falando sobre visualização.

728
00:33:57,500 --> 00:33:58,180
Bem, ele começa

729
00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:00,720
com os primeiros princípios

730
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,780
e os primeiros princípios da física envolvem coisas como o que os humanos dirigem apenas com

731
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:08,240
entrada visual.

732
00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:09,580
Eles não têm radar.

733
00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:10,560
Eles não têm LIDAR.

734
00:34:10,620 --> 00:34:11,580
Eles não têm sonar.

735
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:12,780
E assim

736
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:19,520
não havia nenhuma razão nas leis da física que fizesse com que a visão apenas

737
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:22,520
não terá sucesso na criação de direção autônoma.

738
00:34:23,340 --> 00:34:26,940
Agora isso se torna um artigo de fé para ele e ele

739
00:34:26,940 --> 00:34:28,120
recebe muita resistência.

740
00:34:31,020 --> 00:34:32,040
E ele está a propósito,

741
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,540
não teve tanto sucesso em cumprir seus prazos de

742
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,300
começando a dirigir sozinho.

743
00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:38,040
Ele é muito otimista,

744
00:34:39,180 --> 00:34:43,880
mas foram os primeiros princípios de se livrar de coisas desnecessárias.

745
00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:45,920
Agora você pensaria LIDAR,

746
00:34:45,980 --> 00:34:46,900
por que não usá-lo?

747
00:34:46,980 --> 00:34:48,060
Tipo, por que não usar uma paixão?

748
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,260
É como, sim, só podemos fazer as coisas com visão,

749
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:52,200
mas quando olho para as estrelas à noite,

750
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,700
Eu também uso um telescópio.

751
00:34:54,420 --> 00:34:54,800
Bem,

752
00:34:55,140 --> 00:34:56,240
você poderia usar LIDAR,

753
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,200
mas você não pode fazer milhões de carros dessa forma em grande escala.

754
00:34:59,340 --> 00:35:00,260
Em um determinado ponto,

755
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,660
você tem que torná-lo não apenas um bom produto,

756
00:35:02,820 --> 00:35:04,880
mas um produto que vai em escala.

757
00:35:05,380 --> 00:35:05,920
E você não pode fazer

758
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,820
é baseado em mapas como o Google Maps,

759
00:35:07,940 --> 00:35:12,680
porque nunca será capaz de dirigir de Nova Orleans para

760
00:35:12,770 --> 00:35:16,220
Slidell para onde quero ir quando estiver muito quente em Nova Orleans.

761
00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:19,300
Tomemos, por exemplo, autocondução total.

762
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:23,600
Ele está obcecado com o que chama de táxi robótico.

763
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:25,620
Vamos construir a próxima geração

764
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,360
carro sem volante,

765
00:35:28,340 --> 00:35:28,980
sem pedais,

766
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:31,080
porque será totalmente autônomo.

767
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:31,840
Você acabou de invocá-lo.

768
00:35:32,260 --> 00:35:34,040
Você não precisará dirigi-lo.

769
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:35,580
Bem, uma e outra vez,

770
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:37,220
todas essas pessoas de quem te falei,

771
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,740
Lars Morave e Drew Baglino e outros,

772
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:45,060
eles estão dizendo, ok, tudo bem, parece muito bom, mas ainda não aconteceu.

773
00:35:45,540 --> 00:35:50,980
Precisamos construir um carro global de mercado de massa de US$ 25.000 que seja normal

774
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:51,840
com volante.

775
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:57,760
E sim, ele finalmente se virou há alguns meses e disse:

776
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:58,880
vamos fazê-lo.

777
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:02,320
E então ele começa a se concentrar em como vai funcionar a linha de montagem?

778
00:36:02,380 --> 00:36:07,340
Como vamos fazer isso e torná-lo a mesma plataforma do táxi robótico para que você possa ter a mesma montagem.

779
00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:08,440
Da mesma maneira,

780
00:36:08,940 --> 00:36:09,860
para auto-condução completa,

781
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,880
eles estavam fazendo isso codificando centenas de milhares de linhas de código

782
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:16,320
isso diria coisas como,

783
00:36:16,460 --> 00:36:17,420
se você ver uma luz vermelha,

784
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:17,960
parar.

785
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,180
Se houver uma luz piscando, se houver duas linhas amarelas, faça isso.

786
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:22,500
Se houver uma ciclovia,

787
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:22,980
fazem isto.

788
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,520
Se houver uma faixa de pedestres, faça isso.

789
00:36:25,020 --> 00:36:27,160
Bem, isso é realmente difícil de fazer.

790
00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:29,620
Naly está fazendo isso através de artificial

791
00:36:29,620 --> 00:36:32,020
apenas inteligência e aprendizado de máquina.

792
00:36:32,460 --> 00:36:36,400
O FSD12 basear-se-á em cerca de mil milhões

793
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:37,480
quadros

794
00:36:38,140 --> 00:36:41,100
da Tesla todas as semanas dos motoristas da Tesla e dizendo:

795
00:36:41,460 --> 00:36:43,360
o que aconteceu quando um humano estava nesta situação?

796
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:44,420
O que o humano fez?

797
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:46,000
E vamos escolher apenas os melhores humanos,

798
00:36:46,180 --> 00:36:47,500
os pilotos cinco estrelas,

799
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,500
os motoristas do Uber, como diz Elon.

800
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:56,160
E então é ele mudando de ideia e indo para os primeiros princípios,

801
00:36:56,860 --> 00:36:57,620
mas dizendo,

802
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,400
tudo bem, vou até mudar a direção totalmente autônoma.

803
00:37:01,060 --> 00:37:02,400
Então isso não é baseado em regras.

804
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,380
Torna-se baseado em IA.

805
00:37:04,860 --> 00:37:08,700
Assim como o ChatGPT não tenta responder à sua pergunta,

806
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:09,800
quem são os cinco melhores

807
00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:13,040
papas ou algo assim estudando?

808
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:19,960
ChatGPT faz isso ingerindo bilhões de

809
00:37:20,580 --> 00:37:22,520
peças escritas que as pessoas fizeram.

810
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:23,980
Isto será IA,

811
00:37:24,180 --> 00:37:26,400
mas o mundo real é feito através da ingestão de vídeo.

812
00:37:26,860 --> 00:37:30,260
Às vezes parece que ele e outros,

813
00:37:31,180 --> 00:37:32,860
eles estão construindo coisas neste mundo com sucesso,

814
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,900
estão basicamente explorando com confiança um quarto escuro

815
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,320
com muita confiança,

816
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,080
visão ambiciosa de como realmente é aquela sala.

817
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,320
Eles estão apenas caminhando direto para a escuridão.

818
00:37:49,180 --> 00:37:51,840
Não há brinquedos dolorosos ou Legos no chão.

819
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,120
Eu só vou caminhar.

820
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:54,900
Eu sei exatamente a que distância está a parede.

821
00:37:55,580 --> 00:37:59,080
E então, muito rapidamente, dispostos a se ajustar à medida que se deparam,

822
00:37:59,420 --> 00:38:00,180
eles pisam no

823
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,460
Lego e seu corpo estão cheios de muita dor.

824
00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:09,400
O que quero dizer com isso é que existe esse tipo de evolução que parece acontecer onde você

825
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,240
descubra ideias realmente boas ao longo do caminho que permitem que você gire.

826
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:15,260
Como para mim,

827
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,420
desde há alguns anos,

828
00:38:20,460 --> 00:38:22,880
quando você pôde ver com Andrei Karpathy,

829
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,000
a evolução do software 2.0 do piloto automático,

830
00:38:26,420 --> 00:38:29,740
ficou óbvio para mim que não se trata do carro.

831
00:38:30,540 --> 00:38:32,520
Trata-se de Optimus, o robô.

832
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,640
Se olharmos para trás daqui a cem anos,

833
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,820
o carro será lembrado como um carro legal, um bom transporte,

834
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,760
mas o piloto automático não

835
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,460
seja a coisa que controla o carro.

836
00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:50,300
Será o que permitirá sistemas de IA incorporados

837
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,540
para entender o mundo.

838
00:38:52,940 --> 00:38:53,560
De forma tão ampla,

839
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:57,420
esse tipo de abordagem e você meio que tropeça

840
00:38:57,500 --> 00:38:57,700
isto.

841
00:38:57,980 --> 00:39:00,620
A Tesla será uma empresa automobilística?

842
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:02,680
Será uma empresa de IA?

843
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:04,580
Será uma empresa de robótica?

844
00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:06,680
Será uma empresa de robótica doméstica?

845
00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:08,260
Será uma empresa de energia?

846
00:39:08,420 --> 00:39:09,440
E então você meio que

847
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:16,820
lentamente descubra isso à medida que você avança com confiança com uma visão.

848
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,880
É interessante observar esse tipo de evolução, desde que seja apoiada por esta confiança.

849
00:39:22,010 --> 00:39:25,300
Existem algumas coisas que são necessárias para isso.

850
00:39:25,620 --> 00:39:27,020
Uma delas é ser aventureiro.

851
00:39:27,380 --> 00:39:32,800
Não se entra em um quarto escuro sem uma lanterna e um mapa, a menos que você corra riscos, a menos que seja aventureiro.

852
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:42,420
A segunda é ter ciclos cerebrais iterativos onde você pode processar informações e fazer um ciclo de feedback

853
00:39:42,420 --> 00:39:43,080
e fazê-lo funcionar.

854
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:49,880
A terceira, e é isso que deixamos de fazer muito nos Estados Unidos e talvez em todo o mundo,

855
00:39:50,940 --> 00:39:53,300
é quando você corre riscos,

856
00:39:54,140 --> 00:39:56,260
você tem que perceber que vai explodir as coisas.

857
00:39:57,980 --> 00:39:59,380
Os três primeiros foguetes,

858
00:40:00,620 --> 00:40:02,520
os foguetes Falcon que a NASA faz,

859
00:40:03,260 --> 00:40:04,460
eles explodem.

860
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,400
Até a Starship, três minutos e meio,

861
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:08,160
mas então explode pela primeira vez.

862
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,620
Então eu acho que a Boeing, a NASA e outros se tornaram

863
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:18,880
não deseja entrar em seu quarto escuro sem saber exatamente onde fica a saída

864
00:40:19,020 --> 00:40:21,000
e o caminho iluminado para a saída.

865
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:25,820
E as pessoas que criaram a América sempre que vieram,

866
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:30,600
se o Mayflower é refugiados dos nazistas,

867
00:40:31,260 --> 00:40:33,280
eles correram muitos riscos para chegar aqui.

868
00:40:33,860 --> 00:40:36,140
E agora acho que temos

869
00:40:36,740 --> 00:40:40,220
mais árbitros do que tomadores de risco,

870
00:40:41,020 --> 00:40:45,600
mais advogados e reguladores e outros

871
00:40:45,620 --> 00:40:47,620
dizer que você não pode fazer isso é muito arriscado,

872
00:40:48,140 --> 00:40:49,600
do que pessoas dispostas a inovar.

873
00:40:50,060 --> 00:40:50,720
E você precisa de ambos.

874
00:40:51,820 --> 00:40:55,060
Acho que você também está certo em 50,

875
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,640
Daqui a 100 anos,

876
00:40:57,860 --> 00:41:01,000
pelo que Musk será mais lembrado além

877
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:02,100
viagem ao espaço

878
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,300
é a IA do mundo real.

879
00:41:05,780 --> 00:41:07,860
Não apenas o robô Optimus,

880
00:41:08,020 --> 00:41:10,660
mas Optimus, o robô e o carro autônomo,

881
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,440
eles são praticamente iguais.

882
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:20,100
Eles estão usando clusters de GPU ou chips dojo ou o que quer que seja

883
00:41:20,420 --> 00:41:22,020
para processar dados do mundo real.

884
00:41:22,620 --> 00:41:24,840
Todos nós temos, e você fez no seu podcast,

885
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,800
bastante entusiasmado com o grande modelo de linguagem,

886
00:41:28,660 --> 00:41:32,300
IA de texto preditivo generativo.

887
00:41:32,980 --> 00:41:33,640
Isso é bom,

888
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,200
especialmente se você quiser

889
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:36,640
converse com seu bot de bate-papo.

890
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,980
Mas o Santo Graal é a inteligência artificial geral.

891
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,480
E a parte difícil disso é a IA do mundo real.

892
00:41:45,340 --> 00:41:52,680
E é aí que está o robô Optimus ou full self-drive, eu acho,

893
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:54,120
bem adiante

894
00:41:54,660 --> 00:41:56,200
de qualquer outra pessoa.

895
00:41:57,580 --> 00:41:57,920
Bem,

896
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:00,340
Eu gosto de como você disse bate-papo.

897
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,320
Eu diria que é um dos maiores

898
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:11,560
escritores de todos os tempos, é engraçado que vocês tenham falado sobre a linguagem e o domínio das línguas apenas como um bate-papo.

899
00:42:12,420 --> 00:42:14,600
As pessoas se apaixonaram por algumas palavras.

900
00:42:14,780 --> 00:42:16,260
As pessoas foram para guerras

901
00:42:16,260 --> 00:42:16,720
algumas palavras.

902
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,380
Acho que as palavras têm muito poder.

903
00:42:18,780 --> 00:42:21,040
Na verdade, é uma questão interessante onde

904
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,380
a sabedoria do mundo,

905
00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:26,460
a sabedoria da humanidade está em palavras ou em imagens,

906
00:42:26,740 --> 00:42:27,380
está no físico?

907
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,680
Eu realmente não... É em matemática.

908
00:42:31,180 --> 00:42:33,060
Talvez tudo se reduza à matemática e, no final,

909
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:35,780
esse tipo de discussão sobre o mundo real

910
00:42:35,780 --> 00:42:38,660
IA versus linguagem é a mesma coisa, talvez.

911
00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:42,480
Eu tive a chance de sair um pouco

912
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,180
no metaverso com o Sr.

913
00:42:44,260 --> 00:42:49,900
Mark Zuckerberg recentemente e cara, é o realismo aí.

914
00:42:50,580 --> 00:42:54,640
O que está por vir no futuro é incrível.

915
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,120
Fui digitalizado em Pittsburgh

916
00:42:59,900 --> 00:43:01,000
por 10 horas.

917
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:08,660
Entrei no metaverso e há uma versão virtual minha e pude sair com essa versão virtual.

918
00:43:09,260 --> 00:43:10,160
Você gosta de si mesmo?

919
00:43:10,860 --> 00:43:12,960
Bem, eu nunca gostei de mim mesmo,

920
00:43:14,020 --> 00:43:16,780
mas era mais fácil gostar daquele outro

921
00:43:17,460 --> 00:43:17,820
cara.

922
00:43:18,260 --> 00:43:19,020
Isso foi interessante.

923
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:19,920
Ele gosta de você?

924
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,900
Ele não parece se importar muito.

925
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:24,960
Essa é a falta de empatia.

926
00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:32,500
Isso me fez começar a questionar ainda mais do que antes,

927
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,760
quão importante é esta realidade física?

928
00:43:36,860 --> 00:43:42,200
Porque pude ver a mim mesmo e a outras pessoas naquele metaverso,

929
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:44,380
os detalhes do rosto,

930
00:43:45,740 --> 00:43:49,220
todas as coisas que você pensa,

931
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,240
talvez se você se olhar no espelho haja imperfeições,

932
00:43:52,260 --> 00:43:53,080
todo esse tipo de coisa.

933
00:43:53,980 --> 00:43:55,880
Quando eu estava olhando para mim e para os outros,

934
00:43:56,020 --> 00:43:57,200
todas essas coisas são lindas.

935
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:57,760
Isto

936
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:04,520
foi real e foi intenso e foi assustador porque

937
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:05,400
você é como,

938
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:06,480
bem, você tem permissão para

939
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:07,700
assassinar pessoas no metaverso?

940
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,440
Porque o que você tem permissão para fazer?

941
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:13,480
Porque você pode replicar

942
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:14,620
muitas dessas coisas e

943
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:19,360
você começa a questionar quais são as coisas fundamentais que tornam a vida

944
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,440
vale a pena viver aqui, pois sabemos que são humanos.

945
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:24,680
Você conversou com Elon sobre suas opiniões sobre

946
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,220
o que pode ser viver em uma simulação e como você descobriria se isso é verdade?

947
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,020
Sim, há uma alegria constante,

948
00:44:31,140 --> 00:44:33,320
mas também um sentido sério

949
00:44:34,140 --> 00:44:35,720
que tudo isso é um pouco como um jogo.

950
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:37,420
Uma das minhas teorias

951
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,760
em Elon, uma teoria menor,

952
00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:43,720
é que ele leu o Guia do Mochileiro das Galáxias com muita frequência.

953
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:52,580
Como você sabe, há uma cena ali que diz que existe uma teoria sobre o universo

954
00:44:53,060 --> 00:44:56,960
que se alguém descobrir os segredos dos significados do universo,

955
00:44:57,340 --> 00:44:58,420
ele será substituído

956
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,620
por um universo ainda mais complexo.

957
00:45:00,820 --> 00:45:03,440
Então a próxima linha que Douglas Adams escreve é:

958
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,360
há outra teoria de que isso já aconteceu.

959
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,800
Eu não estou tentando entender

960
00:45:08,820 --> 00:45:11,400
isso, mas sei que Elon Musk tenta.

961
00:45:11,780 --> 00:45:13,440
Há um humor nisso.

962
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,440
Há um enorme humor no Guia do Mochileiro.

963
00:45:16,980 --> 00:45:21,780
Eu realmente acho que isso ajudou Musk a sair do seu período mais sombrio para ter

964
00:45:21,780 --> 00:45:24,800
a sensação de diversão de descobrir o que é a vida.

965
00:45:25,140 --> 00:45:27,120
Eu me pergunto se há um lado menor que poderíamos dizer,

966
00:45:28,260 --> 00:45:32,440
só de ter conhecido Elon muito bem, que bobagem,

967
00:45:33,460 --> 00:45:36,300
a vontade de se envolver no absurdo de tudo

968
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:37,780
e divirta-se.

969
00:45:38,940 --> 00:45:39,480
O que é aquilo?

970
00:45:40,180 --> 00:45:44,400
Isso é apenas uma peculiaridade de personalidade ou é uma questão fundamental

971
00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:47,960
aspecto de um ser humano que dirige mais de seis empresas?

972
00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:50,900
Bem, é uma válvula de alívio como no vídeo

973
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:53,080
jogos e politopia e Elden Ring,

974
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:54,660
uma válvula de escape para ele.

975
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,080
Ele tem um senso explosivo

976
00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:00,360
de humor como você sabe.

977
00:46:01,060 --> 00:46:04,680
O estranho é quando ele faz a transição abrupta

978
00:46:05,220 --> 00:46:12,060
do modo demônio escuro e você está na sala de conferências e ele realmente ficou chateado com alguma coisa.

979
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,180
Não só existem vibrações sombrias,

980
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,500
mas há palavras sombrias emanando e ele está dizendo:

981
00:46:17,820 --> 00:46:20,560
sua demissão será aceita se você morrer, etc.

982
00:46:21,740 --> 00:46:23,500
Então algo aparece

983
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:25,800
e ele pega seu telefone

984
00:46:26,340 --> 00:46:33,420
e faz uma esquete de Bonnie Pythons como School of Silly Walks ou qualquer outro John Cleese.

985
00:46:33,980 --> 00:46:36,440
Ele começa a rir de novo e as coisas quebram.

986
00:46:39,020 --> 00:46:42,040
É quase como se ele tivesse modos diferentes,

987
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,460
a emulação do modo humano, o modo de engenharia,

988
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,100
o modo escuro e demoníaco,

989
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,900
e certamente existe o modo bobo e vertiginoso.

990
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:59,000
Sim, você abriu o livro de Elon com citações de Elon e de Steve Jobs.

991
00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:00,880
Então a citação de Elon é,

992
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:01,980
para qualquer pessoa que eu tenha ofendido,

993
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:02,940
Eu apenas quero dizer,

994
00:47:02,980 --> 00:47:03,920
isso está no SNL,

995
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:05,340
Eu apenas quero dizer,

996
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,420
Reinventei os carros eléctricos e estou a enviar pessoas para Marte num foguetão.

997
00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:12,680
Você também achou que eu seria um cara tranquilo e normal?

998
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:14,520
E então a citação de Steve Jobs,

999
00:47:14,540 --> 00:47:20,620
claro, são as pessoas que são loucas o suficiente para pensar que podem mudar o mundo que o fazem.

1000
00:47:21,290 --> 00:47:25,840
Então, qual você acha que é o papel do velho

1001
00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:27,840
loucura e gênio?

1002
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:29,120
O que você acha que é

1003
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,280
papel do louco nisso?

1004
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:30,760
Bem,

1005
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,620
em primeiro lugar, vamos estipular que Musk às vezes é louco.

1006
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:37,180
Quero dizer, e

1007
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,380
então vamos descobrir,

1008
00:47:40,980 --> 00:47:44,540
e tento fazer isso contando histórias, não através de hifilismo

1009
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:45,680
e pregação,

1010
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,860
onde essa loucura funciona.

1011
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:51,280
Dê-me uma história,

1012
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:52,120
conte-me uma anedota,

1013
00:47:52,260 --> 00:47:53,100
diga-me onde ele é louco.

1014
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,160
E o exemplo quase final,

1015
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,640
AI, mas ele atirando na Starship pela primeira vez,

1016
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,260
entre uma contagem regressiva abortada e o tiroteio,

1017
00:48:06,260 --> 00:48:08,680
ele vai a Miami para uma conferência de vendas de anúncios e

1018
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,460
conhece Linda Iaccarino pela primeira vez,

1019
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:11,400
faz dela a CEO.

1020
00:48:11,740 --> 00:48:13,340
Quero dizer, há uma grande impulsividade em

1021
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:13,640
ele.

1022
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:14,460
Então ele voa de volta,

1023
00:48:14,940 --> 00:48:22,380
eles lançam a Starship, e você percebe que há um impulso e há

1024
00:48:22,380 --> 00:48:24,000
demônios e também há loucura.

1025
00:48:26,860 --> 00:48:29,940
E às vezes você quer retirá-los.

1026
00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:31,700
Você quer tirar o dele

1027
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:33,800
telefone para que ele não tweete às 3 da manhã.

1028
00:48:34,220 --> 00:48:35,540
Você quer dizer,

1029
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:36,720
pare de ser tão louco.

1030
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:38,960
Mas então você percebe

1031
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,300
há uma linha maravilhosa de Shakespeare em Medida por Medida bem no final.

1032
00:48:43,820 --> 00:48:44,320
Ele diz,

1033
00:48:44,620 --> 00:48:47,740
mesmo os melhores são moldados a partir de falhas.

1034
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,580
E então você assume as falhas de Musk,

1035
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,380
por exemplo, que inclui uma loucura que pode ser cativante,

1036
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,340
mas também uma loucura que é como uma loucura,

1037
00:49:00,210 --> 00:49:04,480
bem como este modo drive e demon.

1038
00:49:05,860 --> 00:49:09,280
Não sei se dá para tirar esse fio do tecido

1039
00:49:09,820 --> 00:49:11,160
e o tecido permanece inteiro.

1040
00:49:13,060 --> 00:49:13,600
Eu me pergunto,

1041
00:49:14,740 --> 00:49:20,000
às vezes me entristece saber que vivemos numa sociedade que não celebra nem mesmo o

1042
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:21,300
aspectos mais sombrios da loucura

1043
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,840
em reconhecer que tudo vem em um único pacote.

1044
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,520
É o homem na arena versus o crítico.

1045
00:49:28,060 --> 00:49:31,960
E o homem na arena contra o regulador para tornar tudo mais prosaico.

1046
00:49:35,090 --> 00:49:38,180
Bem, deixe-me perguntar não apenas sobre a loucura, mas sobre a crueldade.

1047
00:49:38,780 --> 00:49:42,660
Então você escreveu uma reportagem sobre Steve Jobs.

1048
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,380
Foi-lhe dito que a grande pergunta a fazer era:

1049
00:49:46,060 --> 00:49:47,920
ele tinha que ser tão mau,

1050
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,900
tão áspero e cruel,

1051
00:49:50,420 --> 00:49:51,500
tão viciado em drama?

1052
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,960
Qual é essa resposta para Steve Jobs?

1053
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,300
Ele tinha que ser tão cruel?

1054
00:49:56,660 --> 00:49:57,220
Para empregos,

1055
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:00,080
Eu perguntei Estava no final do meu relatório,

1056
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,060
porque foi isso que ele disse no início,

1057
00:50:02,820 --> 00:50:04,800
estamos fazendo o lançamento, eu acho

1058
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:08,040
o iPad 2, pode ter sido.

1059
00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:10,520
Steve está emaciado porque

1060
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:12,300
ele esteve doente.

1061
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:13,980
E então eu digo para Was,

1062
00:50:14,020 --> 00:50:15,100
qual é a resposta para sua pergunta?

1063
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,400
E ele disse, bem, se eu estivesse comandando a Apple,

1064
00:50:18,180 --> 00:50:19,500
Eu teria sido mais gentil com todos.

1065
00:50:19,660 --> 00:50:20,760
Todo mundo ficou preso.

1066
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:21,940
Temos sido como uma família.

1067
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,220
E então eu não sei se você sabe Foi,

1068
00:50:24,220 --> 00:50:25,100
ele é como um ursinho de pelúcia.

1069
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:26,560
Ele fez uma pausa, sorriu e disse:

1070
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:28,080
mas se eu estivesse comandando a Apple,

1071
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,300
Não creio que teríamos feito o Macintosh ou o iPhone.

1072
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,780
Então sim,

1073
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:35,120
você tem que

1074
00:50:36,540 --> 00:50:37,640
às vezes

1075
00:50:38,620 --> 00:50:39,260
seja áspero.

1076
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,300
E Jobs disse a mesma coisa que Must me disse:

1077
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:44,380
o que ele disse,

1078
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,080
pessoas como você adoram usar luvas de veludo.

1079
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,240
Agora não sei se usei luvas de veludo com frequência,

1080
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:52,400
mas você gosta que as pessoas gostem de você,

1081
00:50:52,420 --> 00:50:53,920
você gosta de falar coisas doces,

1082
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:54,300
você adoça as coisas.

1083
00:50:54,480 --> 00:51:00,320
Ele diz: sou apenas um garoto da classe trabalhadora e não tenho esse luxo.

1084
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:02,780
Se algo está uma merda, tenho que dizer às pessoas que é uma merda.

1085
00:51:03,180 --> 00:51:04,640
Ou tenho um time de jogadores B.

1086
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:06,280
Bem, Musk é assim

1087
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:06,580
também.

1088
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,400
E volta ao que eu disse antes,

1089
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:10,500
o que é, sim,

1090
00:51:11,020 --> 00:51:13,040
Eu provavelmente usaria veludo

1091
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,400
luvas se eu pudesse encontrá-las no meu armarinho.

1092
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,000
E eu tento adoçar as coisas.

1093
00:51:19,060 --> 00:51:21,400
Mas quando eu dirigia a CNN,

1094
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:23,820
precisava ser remodelado.

1095
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:25,200
Precisava ser quebrado.

1096
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,680
Precisava que certas coisas explodissem.

1097
00:51:28,180 --> 00:51:29,840
E eu não fiz isso.

1098
00:51:31,060 --> 00:51:33,500
Foi tão ruim para mim, mas me fez perceber,

1099
00:51:33,700 --> 00:51:35,940
ok, vou apenas escrever sobre as pessoas que podem fazer isso.

1100
00:51:36,180 --> 00:51:37,880
Bem, essa coisa de dizer,

1101
00:51:38,340 --> 00:51:39,500
Acho que provavelmente os dois,

1102
00:51:39,620 --> 00:51:41,440
mas Elon certamente está dizendo coisas

1103
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,380
como se essa fosse a coisa mais estúpida que já ouvi.

1104
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,400
A propósito, ouvi Jeff Bezos dizer isso.

1105
00:51:47,580 --> 00:51:48,900
Já ouvi Bill Gates dizer isso.

1106
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:50,800
Eu ouvi Steve Jobs dizer isso.

1107
00:51:50,940 --> 00:51:53,420
Já ouvi Steve Jobs dizer isso sobre um smoothie.

1108
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,000
Eles estavam fazendo uma fruta inteira ou algo assim.

1109
00:51:55,660 --> 00:51:59,040
Eles usam a palavra estúpido com muita frequência.

1110
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:00,660
E sabe quem mais usou?

1111
00:52:00,860 --> 00:52:01,500
Errol Musk.

1112
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:02,560
Ele continuou assando.

1113
00:52:02,780 --> 00:52:04,580
Elon fica na frente dele e diz:

1114
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:05,620
isso é a coisa mais estúpida.

1115
00:52:05,740 --> 00:52:06,980
Você é a pessoa mais estúpida.

1116
00:52:07,180 --> 00:52:08,440
Você nunca será nada.

1117
00:52:11,460 --> 00:52:12,640
Não sei.

1118
00:52:13,900 --> 00:52:17,060
Como disse John McNeil, presidente da Tesla:

1119
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:19,000
você tem que ser assim?

1120
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:20,600
Provavelmente não.

1121
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,340
Há muitos sucessos

1122
00:52:22,380 --> 00:52:24,140
pessoas que são muito mais gentis,

1123
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:26,040
mas

1124
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:32,180
às vezes é necessário

1125
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,400
para ser muito mais brutalmente honesto,

1126
00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:37,820
Eu diria,

1127
00:52:38,540 --> 00:52:44,060
do que pessoas como quem são os troféus de chefe do ano.

1128
00:52:45,140 --> 00:52:46,880
Bem, como você disse, esse tipo de ideia

1129
00:52:47,420 --> 00:52:48,840
também enviou um sinal.

1130
00:52:49,300 --> 00:52:51,040
Essa ideia de Steve Jobs de oito jogadores,

1131
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:52,720
enviou um sinal para todos.

1132
00:52:54,220 --> 00:52:56,820
Foi uma espécie de incentivo para as pessoas que estão presentes.

1133
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:57,740
Certo.

1134
00:52:57,740 --> 00:52:58,700
E isso aconteceu com o Twitter.

1135
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,460
Quando fomos à sede do Twitter no dia anterior

1136
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,880
a aquisição, ele estava tendo

1137
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:09,420
Andrew e James, seus dois primos jovens e outras pessoas de

1138
00:53:09,420 --> 00:53:12,200
a equipe do piloto automático, repassando linhas de código.

1139
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,500
E o próprio Musk ficou lá sentado com um laptop ligado

1140
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:15,520
o segundo andar do prédio,

1141
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,100
olhando as linhas de código que foram escritas pelos engenheiros do Twitter.

1142
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:25,240
E eles decidiram que iriam demitir 85% deles porque

1143
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:26,100
tinha que estar com tudo dentro.

1144
00:53:26,260 --> 00:53:29,880
E esta noção de segurança psicológica e folgas mentais e

1145
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:32,400
trabalhando remotamente, ele disse,

1146
00:53:32,980 --> 00:53:33,060
qualquer.

1147
00:53:33,620 --> 00:53:33,940
E então

1148
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,500
surgiu, na verdade, um dele,

1149
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:39,400
acho que foi um

1150
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:45,180
dos primos ou talvez Ross Nordine teve a ideia de não sermos tão rudes e

1151
00:53:45,180 --> 00:53:46,360
apenas demita todas essas pessoas.

1152
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,240
Vamos perguntar a eles: você realmente quer participar?

1153
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:50,440
Porque isso vai ser pesado.

1154
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:51,640
Vai ser intenso.

1155
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:53,140
Você pode escolher,

1156
00:53:53,340 --> 00:53:55,900
mas à meia-noite desta noite queremos que você marque a caixa.

1157
00:53:56,580 --> 00:53:59,000
Sou hardcore, com tudo, estarei lá pessoalmente,

1158
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,880
Vou trabalhar, você sabe, ou isso não é para mim.

1159
00:54:02,180 --> 00:54:03,420
Eu tenho uma família,

1160
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:04,300
Eu tenho equilíbrio de trabalho

1161
00:54:05,620 --> 00:54:08,460
e você tem diferentes tipos de pessoas dessa maneira e diferentes

1162
00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:09,620
etapas de sua vida.

1163
00:54:09,780 --> 00:54:13,900
Eu era um pouco mais hardcore quando tinha vinte e poucos anos e quando

1164
00:54:13,900 --> 00:54:15,860
estava, você sabe, na casa dos cinquenta.

1165
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:16,520
Sim.

1166
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:17,420
E você escreve sobre isso

1167
00:54:18,020 --> 00:54:19,460
ideia muito boa, na verdade,

1168
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:20,860
que há dois campos

1169
00:54:21,420 --> 00:54:23,100
e você descobre,

1170
00:54:23,180 --> 00:54:25,100
Eu não, me pergunto até que ponto isso é verdade.

1171
00:54:25,100 --> 00:54:26,340
Parece verdadeiro.

1172
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:27,880
Você pode simplesmente perguntar às pessoas,

1173
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:28,980
em qual acampamento você está?

1174
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,980
Você é o tipo de pessoa que se valoriza,

1175
00:54:32,100 --> 00:54:34,860
que gostam de ficar acordados até às 2 da manhã.

1176
00:54:35,180 --> 00:54:36,240
programação ou algo assim?

1177
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,160
Ou você vê o valor de aspas entre aspas,

1178
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:40,740
você sabe, sobre a vida,

1179
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:42,680
equilíbrio entre vida profissional e todo esse tipo de coisa.

1180
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:43,420
E

1181
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:44,340
é interessante.

1182
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:44,900
Quero dizer,

1183
00:54:46,260 --> 00:54:47,000
como você poderia,

1184
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,780
as pessoas provavelmente se dividem em diferentes fases da vida e

1185
00:54:50,780 --> 00:54:55,700
você pode simplesmente perguntar a eles e isso faz sentido para certas empresas em determinados estágios de seu

1186
00:54:55,740 --> 00:54:56,820
desenvolvimento para ser como,

1187
00:54:56,820 --> 00:54:57,980
só queremos pessoas hardcore.

1188
00:54:57,980 --> 00:54:58,300
Ou certas equipes.

1189
00:54:58,500 --> 00:54:59,700
Nem precisa ser uma empresa inteira.

1190
00:55:00,380 --> 00:55:00,980
E você está certo.

1191
00:55:01,580 --> 00:55:03,660
Isso remonta ao que eu estava dizendo sobre regra.

1192
00:55:04,020 --> 00:55:06,260
O primeiro segredo é saber

1193
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:11,680
você mesmo obviamente vem de Platão e tudo vem de Platão e Sócrates,

1194
00:55:13,020 --> 00:55:15,220
mas e

1195
00:55:16,020 --> 00:55:18,000
decidir sobre esta fase da minha vida.

1196
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,260
Eu quero ser um hackathon a noite toda

1197
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:23,860
e mudar o mundo?

1198
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:24,600
Ou eu quero

1199
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,040
para trazer sabedoria e estabilidade,

1200
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:28,380
mas também tem equilíbrio?

1201
00:55:29,060 --> 00:55:30,500
Eu acho que é bom ter

1202
00:55:30,690 --> 00:55:33,260
empresas diferentes com estilos diferentes.

1203
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,280
O problema era que o Twitter estava quase em um extremo

1204
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:45,360
com estúdios de ioga e folgas para saúde mental e consagrando a segurança psicológica como um dos

1205
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,940
mantras de que as pessoas nunca deveriam se sentir psicologicamente ameaçadas.

1206
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,560
E ele, eu me lembro da risada amarga que ele

1207
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:53,240
desencadeado quando ele continuou ouvindo essa palavra.

1208
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:55,800
Ele disse, não, gosto das palavras hardcore.

1209
00:55:56,260 --> 00:55:57,200
Gosto de intensidade.

1210
00:55:57,660 --> 00:56:03,060
Gosto de um intenso senso de urgência como nosso princípio operacional.

1211
00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:05,140
Bem, sim, há pessoas que

1212
00:56:05,140 --> 00:56:05,760
caminho também.

1213
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,820
E assim saiba quem você é e saiba que tipo de equipe deseja construir.

1214
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,840
Contra a segurança psicológica e muitos pássaros por toda parte.

1215
00:56:13,340 --> 00:56:13,760
Oh sim.

1216
00:56:14,020 --> 00:56:17,160
Muitas vezes Musk fez coisas e eu pensei, que diabos?

1217
00:56:18,140 --> 00:56:19,340
E entre eles estava mudando

1218
00:56:19,340 --> 00:56:21,140
o nome Twitter e se livrar dos pássaros.

1219
00:56:21,260 --> 00:56:21,840
Eu disse: Ei cara,

1220
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:23,760
é muito investido nessa marca.

1221
00:56:24,580 --> 00:56:25,700
Mas quando eu o observei,

1222
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,740
ele pensou, ok, esses passarinhos fofos e alegres twittando em nome do Twitter,

1223
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,200
não é grave.

1224
00:56:34,380 --> 00:56:35,420
Não é intenso.

1225
00:56:35,980 --> 00:56:38,040
E assim, para o bem e para o mal,

1226
00:56:38,660 --> 00:56:40,120
Eu acho que ele está agindo

1227
00:56:41,140 --> 00:56:47,080
no reino hardcore com pessoas que postam coisas hardcore,

1228
00:56:47,580 --> 00:56:49,460
com pessoas com visões radicais.

1229
00:56:50,380 --> 00:56:50,940
Não é

1230
00:56:52,060 --> 00:56:54,140
um educado

1231
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:59,720
cercadinho para o azul verificado

1232
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,180
elite ungida.

1233
00:57:04,140 --> 00:57:05,600
E eu pensei, ok, isso vai ser ruim.

1234
00:57:05,620 --> 00:57:06,700
A coisa toda vai desmoronar.

1235
00:57:06,780 --> 00:57:08,300
Bem, ele teve problemas,

1236
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:14,340
mas a intensidade extrema disso também significa que há coisas novas acontecendo lá.

1237
00:57:14,460 --> 00:57:21,920
Portanto, é muito Elon Musk não gostar dessa doçura dos pássaros cantando, tweetando e dizendo:

1238
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:23,660
Quero algo mais hardcore.

1239
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:30,140
Como você escreveu referindo-se ao CEO anterior do Twitter,

1240
00:57:30,620 --> 00:57:34,660
Elon disse que o Twitter precisa de um dragão cuspidor de fogo.

1241
00:57:35,620 --> 00:57:38,520
Acho que esta é uma boa oportunidade para talvez

1242
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:43,400
passe por alguns dos momentos memoráveis da saga do Twitter sobre os quais você escreveu extensivamente

1243
00:57:43,740 --> 00:57:44,340
em seu livro,

1244
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:50,680
desde os primeiros dias de consideração da aquisição até como ela passou até o

1245
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,100
detalhes, como você mencionou, das equipes de engenharia.

1246
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,830
Bem, no início de 2022,

1247
00:57:57,300 --> 00:57:58,620
ele estava voando alto,

1248
00:57:59,180 --> 00:57:59,800
mas como dizemos,

1249
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:00,720
ele é um viciado em drama.

1250
00:58:00,900 --> 00:58:02,080
Ele não gosta de fantasmas.

1251
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,540
E a Tesla vendeu um milhão de veículos.

1252
00:58:05,740 --> 00:58:07,700
Acho que 33 reforços,

1253
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,220
Falcon 9s foram baleados e

1254
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:13,980
pousou com segurança nos últimos meses.

1255
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:20,940
E ele era a pessoa mais rica do mundo e a pessoa mais rica do ano.

1256
00:58:21,700 --> 00:58:22,280
E ainda,

1257
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,240
ele disse, ainda quero colocar todas as minhas fichas de volta na mesa.

1258
00:58:27,300 --> 00:58:28,560
Quero continuar correndo riscos.

1259
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:30,520
Não quero saborear as coisas.

1260
00:58:31,060 --> 00:58:32,360
Ele havia vendido todas as suas casas.

1261
00:58:33,180 --> 00:58:36,320
Então ele começa a comprar secretamente ações do Twitter.

1262
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,780
Janeiro, fevereiro, março se tornam públicos em determinado momento.

1263
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:42,520
Não sei se devo declarar isso.

1264
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:45,800
E estávamos aqui em Austin

1265
00:58:46,620 --> 00:58:48,600
na Gigafactory no mezanino.

1266
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:50,960
E ele estava tentando descobrir,

1267
00:58:51,140 --> 00:58:52,200
bem, para onde vou a partir daqui?

1268
00:58:53,140 --> 00:58:55,300
E naquela época, neste início de abril,

1269
00:58:55,940 --> 00:58:59,880
eles iriam oferecer a ele um assento no conselho e ele faria um acordo de standstill

1270
00:58:59,980 --> 00:59:01,680
e pare em 10% ou algo assim.

1271
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:04,440
Agora lembre-se, estávamos parados.

1272
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:05,500
Foi Luke Nozick,

1273
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:06,580
quem você conhece bem,

1274
00:59:07,020 --> 00:59:07,920
Ken Halry,

1275
00:59:08,300 --> 00:59:10,600
alguns de seus amigos naquele mezanino aqui.

1276
00:59:11,340 --> 00:59:12,620
E a tarde toda e depois

1277
00:59:12,620 --> 00:59:14,260
tarde da noite no jantar

1278
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,000
é tipo, devemos fazer isso?

1279
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:18,600
E eu não disse nada.

1280
00:59:18,660 --> 00:59:19,740
Sou apenas o observador.

1281
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:21,180
Mas todo mundo está dizendo:

1282
00:59:21,460 --> 00:59:23,860
com licença, por que você quer ser dono do Twitter?

1283
00:59:24,940 --> 00:59:25,900
E Griffin, seu filho,

1284
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:27,340
juntou-se ao jantar.

1285
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,480
E May, por algum motivo, estava na cidade.

1286
00:59:30,380 --> 00:59:32,960
E como todo mundo diz, não, não usamos o Twitter.

1287
00:59:32,980 --> 00:59:34,000
Por que você faria isso?

1288
00:59:34,660 --> 00:59:36,060
E May disse, bem, eu uso o Twitter.

1289
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:37,680
E é quase como, ok,

1290
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,320
os dados demográficos são pessoas da minha idade ou da idade de May.

1291
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:43,580
E assim parecia

1292
00:59:43,580 --> 00:59:45,460
como se ele não fosse persegui-lo.

1293
00:59:45,700 --> 00:59:47,160
Ofereceram-lhe um assento no conselho.

1294
00:59:48,860 --> 00:59:51,780
E então ele foi para

1295
00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:56,240
Havaí para a casa de Larry Ellison,

1296
00:59:56,660 --> 00:59:57,780
que ele às vezes usa.

1297
00:59:58,280 --> 00:59:59,260
Ele estava se encontrando com um amigo,

1298
00:59:59,420 --> 01:00:01,060
Angela Bassett, uma atriz.

1299
01:00:01,940 --> 01:00:05,180
E em vez de aproveitar três dias de férias,

1300
01:00:06,060 --> 01:00:07,640
ele simplesmente ficou sobrecarregado

1301
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,780
e comecei a enviar mensagens de texto,

1302
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,620
incluindo o dragão cuspidor de fogo.

1303
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:13,960
Eu penso

1304
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:19,140
ele usou algumas vezes aquela frase de que Parag não era a pessoa que iria levar o Twitter

1305
01:00:19,660 --> 01:00:20,440
para um novo nível.

1306
01:00:21,180 --> 01:00:23,320
E então, quando ele chegar a Vancouver,

1307
01:00:23,540 --> 01:00:24,740
onde Grimes o conhece,

1308
01:00:25,260 --> 01:00:27,420
eles ficam acordados a noite toda jogando Elden Ring.

1309
01:00:27,820 --> 01:00:29,020
Ele estava fazendo uma palestra no TED.

1310
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,060
E então, às 5h30,

1311
01:00:32,060 --> 01:00:33,820
ele termina de jogar Elden Ring e

1312
01:00:33,820 --> 01:00:35,820
envia que fiz uma oferta.

1313
01:00:37,060 --> 01:00:38,440
Mesmo quando ele voltar,

1314
01:00:39,020 --> 01:00:40,320
as pessoas estão tentando intervir

1315
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,460
e diga, com licença, por que você está fazendo isso?

1316
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,040
E então foi um período difícil entre o final

1317
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,600
Abril e outubro, quando o negócio foi fechado.

1318
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:51,200
E as pessoas me perguntam o tempo todo,

1319
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:53,000
bem, ele queria sair do acordo?

1320
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:53,520
Eu disse,

1321
01:00:53,900 --> 01:00:56,200
de qual Elon você está falando a que horas do dia?

1322
01:00:56,620 --> 01:00:58,140
Porque haverá momentos pela manhã

1323
01:00:58,720 --> 01:00:59,640
quando ele dizia, oh,

1324
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:01,420
o tribunal de Delaware vai

1325
01:01:01,420 --> 01:01:02,180
me forçar a fazer isso.

1326
01:01:02,220 --> 01:01:02,900
É horrível.

1327
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:04,260
Fale com seus advogados.

1328
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:05,320
Você pode ganhar este caso.

1329
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:06,380
Tire-me disso.

1330
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,820
Ele se encontrou aqui em Austin com três ou quatro banqueiros de investimento,

1331
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:15,780
Blair Efron da Centerview, Bob Steele da Pirella Weinberg.

1332
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:17,300
E eles lhe ofereceram opções.

1333
01:01:17,380 --> 01:01:18,080
Você quer sair?

1334
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:18,940
Você quer ficar em casa?

1335
01:01:18,940 --> 01:01:20,040
Quer reduzir o preço?

1336
01:01:21,300 --> 01:01:22,380
E eu acho que ele estava

1337
01:01:22,750 --> 01:01:23,200
mercurial.

1338
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:26,380
Houve momentos em que ele me mandou uma mensagem ou me disse:

1339
01:01:26,860 --> 01:01:27,900
Isso vai ser ótimo.

1340
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:29,460
Vai ser o acelerador

1341
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,580
fazer o x.com da maneira que pensávamos há 20 anos.

1342
01:01:35,620 --> 01:01:37,180
E então não é até que eles

1343
01:01:37,180 --> 01:01:39,040
finalmente diga a ele no início de outubro,

1344
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,040
logo quando Optimus the Robot está sendo revelado

1345
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,520
na Califórnia, na verdade,

1346
01:01:45,820 --> 01:01:46,360
que o advogado diz,

1347
01:01:46,420 --> 01:01:49,120
você provavelmente não vai ganhar este caso, mas

1348
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:51,080
é melhor prosseguir com o acordo.

1349
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,060
E até então ele não apenas fez as pazes com isso,

1350
01:01:55,060 --> 01:01:57,000
ele fica feliz com isso às vezes.

1351
01:01:57,780 --> 01:01:58,560
Eventualmente,

1352
01:01:58,940 --> 01:02:01,220
o negócio vai ser fechado

1353
01:02:01,980 --> 01:02:04,400
Acho que uma sexta-feira

1354
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:04,940
manhã.

1355
01:02:04,940 --> 01:02:05,960
Eu tenho isso no livro.

1356
01:02:06,580 --> 01:02:10,100
E estamos lá na quinta-feira e ele está vagando olhando

1357
01:02:10,100 --> 01:02:11,740
a estadia acordou camisetas e

1358
01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:15,900
linguagem de segurança psicológica que todos usam.

1359
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:18,060
E ele e seus advogados

1360
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:21,900
e os banqueiros traçaram um plano para fechar rapidamente.

1361
01:02:23,180 --> 01:02:25,020
E a razão para isso foi

1362
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:27,420
se eles fecharem o negócio

1363
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,740
depois que os mercados fecharam naquele dia,

1364
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:35,300
e ele poderia enviar uma carta para Parag e outros dois,

1365
01:02:35,940 --> 01:02:37,680
despedindo-os por justa causa,

1366
01:02:38,300 --> 01:02:40,240
e isso será algo que os tribunais terão que descobrir,

1367
01:02:41,660 --> 01:02:43,760
então ele poderia economizar cerca de 200 milhões.

1368
01:02:44,100 --> 01:02:45,340
E foi tanto o dinheiro,

1369
01:02:45,500 --> 01:02:46,420
mas para ele é um assunto,

1370
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:48,280
Não direi de princípio, mas de,

1371
01:02:49,100 --> 01:02:49,260
ei,

1372
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:51,260
eles me enganaram sobre os números.

1373
01:02:51,300 --> 01:02:52,820
Fui forçado a fazer isso.

1374
01:02:53,300 --> 01:03:00,380
Então vou tentar essa manobra de jiu-jitsu e conseguir tirar algum dinheiro deles.

1375
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:01,860
Então, quando ele assumir,

1376
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:03,620
é uma cena meio selvagem.

1377
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,440
Ele tentando decidir em três diferentes

1378
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,960
rodadas sobre como reduzir o pessoal para 15% do que era.

1379
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:13,260
Ele decidindo na véspera de Natal,

1380
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:15,020
depois que ele esteve em uma reunião

1381
01:03:15,980 --> 01:03:20,080
onde eles disseram a ele que não podemos nos livrar daquele farm de servidores de Sacramento, porque

1382
01:03:20,780 --> 01:03:22,260
é preciso uma redundância.

1383
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:23,680
Ele diz, não, não é.

1384
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:25,900
E ele está voando aqui para Austin.

1385
01:03:27,260 --> 01:03:28,100
E o jovem James diz:

1386
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:29,220
por que não fazemos isso nós mesmos?

1387
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:30,420
Ele vira o avião,

1388
01:03:30,460 --> 01:03:33,120
eles pousam em Sacramento e ele mesmo os retira.

1389
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:34,800
Então foi um período maníaco.

1390
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,620
Deveríamos também dizer que por baixo disso,

1391
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:38,500
houve

1392
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:43,180
um desejo contínuo ou consideração de talvez

1393
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:44,580
começar de novo

1394
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:48,340
empresa para construir uma empresa de mídia social do zero.

1395
01:03:48,820 --> 01:03:50,080
Bem, Kimball queria fazer isso.

1396
01:03:50,140 --> 01:03:52,960
E Kimball aqui em um restaurante maravilhoso em Austin,

1397
01:03:53,140 --> 01:03:54,040
no almoço é tipo, ei,

1398
01:03:54,860 --> 01:03:55,780
por que você está comprando o Twitter?

1399
01:03:56,220 --> 01:03:58,880
Vamos começar do zero e fazê-lo no blockchain.

1400
01:03:59,820 --> 01:04:01,380
Agora demorou um pouco,

1401
01:04:01,380 --> 01:04:03,160
e você pode argumentar de uma forma ou de outra,

1402
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:08,040
chegar à conclusão de que o blockchain não era rápido o suficiente

1403
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:12,140
e tempo de resposta suficiente para lidar com um bilhão de tweets

1404
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:13,500
em um ou dois dias.

1405
01:04:14,580 --> 01:04:18,360
Ele fica bravo quando eles tentam convencê-lo a falar com Sam Bankman Fried,

1406
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:19,620
quem está tentando dizer,

1407
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:21,760
Vou investir, mas temos que fazer isso no blockchain.

1408
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:28,720
Kimball ainda é a favor de começar um novo e fazê-lo baseado em blockchain.

1409
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:31,300
Em retrospecto,

1410
01:04:32,660 --> 01:04:33,100
Eu penso

1411
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,640
começar uma nova empresa de mídia teria sido melhor.

1412
01:04:35,660 --> 01:04:36,900
Ele não teria a bagagem

1413
01:04:37,620 --> 01:04:38,140
ou

1414
01:04:38,660 --> 01:04:44,240
o legado que ele está quebrando agora ao quebrar a forma como o Twitter era.

1415
01:04:44,660 --> 01:04:47,140
Mas é difícil ter

1416
01:04:47,140 --> 01:04:49,660
milhões e milhões, centenas de milhões de

1417
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,460
verdadeiros usuários, não apenas trolls,

1418
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:55,520
e começar do zero como

1419
01:04:55,640 --> 01:05:01,860
outros descobriram, como Macedon e Blue Sky e fios e nenhum fio tinha sequer uma base.

1420
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:03,220
Então teria sido difícil.

1421
01:05:04,140 --> 01:05:07,330
Sim. E para fazer isso da maneira que ele fez, é necessário

1422
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,020
outra parte que você escreve sobre os três mosqueteiros

1423
01:05:11,020 --> 01:05:12,020
e toda a engenharia,

1424
01:05:12,940 --> 01:05:15,600
a demissão e a contratação dos engenheiros

1425
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:17,360
para tentar ir para o hardcore.

1426
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,040
Portanto, há muitos tipos de perguntas interessantes a serem feitas,

1427
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:21,700
mas o alto nível,

1428
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:26,980
você pode apenas comentar sobre essa parte da saga, que é

1429
01:05:28,140 --> 01:05:29,240
trazendo os engenheiros

1430
01:05:29,460 --> 01:05:31,120
e vendo como, o que podemos fazer aqui?

1431
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:32,220
Certo.

1432
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:34,920
Ele trouxe os engenheiros e imaginou

1433
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:38,380
que a quantidade de pessoas fazendo Tesla,

1434
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,260
piloto automático totalmente autônomo e todo o software

1435
01:05:41,260 --> 01:05:46,240
havia cerca de um décimo do que estava sendo feito com software para o Twitter.

1436
01:05:46,380 --> 01:05:47,940
E ele disse: não pode ser assim.

1437
01:05:48,660 --> 01:05:49,080
E

1438
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,280
ele disparou 85% em três tiros diferentes.

1439
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:53,140
O primeiro foi

1440
01:05:54,180 --> 01:05:56,100
apenas demitindo pessoas porque

1441
01:05:56,100 --> 01:06:02,060
eles analisaram a codificação e uma equipe de pessoas da equipe do piloto automático da Tesla avaliou

1442
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:06,140
os códigos de tudo o que foi escrito no ano passado ou mais.

1443
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,580
Então ele demitiu pessoas que não o fizeram

1444
01:06:09,580 --> 01:06:11,760
parecem estar totalmente comprometidos ou leais.

1445
01:06:12,260 --> 01:06:14,220
E então outra rodada de demissões.

1446
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:19,280
Então, a cada passo do caminho,

1447
01:06:19,780 --> 01:06:21,320
quase todo mundo disse, isso é o suficiente.

1448
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:23,240
Isso vai destruir coisas.

1449
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:27,080
De Alex Spiro, seu advogado, a Jared Burchill,

1450
01:06:27,580 --> 01:06:28,480
ele fica tipo, ei, ei, ei.

1451
01:06:29,300 --> 01:06:30,940
E até mesmo Andrew e James,

1452
01:06:30,940 --> 01:06:35,440
os jovens primos encarregados de fazer uma lista e descobrir quem é bom ou mau,

1453
01:06:35,580 --> 01:06:36,480
digamos, já fizemos o suficiente.

1454
01:06:36,500 --> 01:06:38,440
Estaremos em sérios apuros.

1455
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,340
E eles estavam parcialmente certos.

1456
01:06:41,620 --> 01:06:45,460
Quer dizer, houve alguma degradação do serviço,

1457
01:06:46,460 --> 01:06:46,580
mas

1458
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:50,300
não tanto quanto metade dos serviços que uso na metade do tempo.

1459
01:06:51,060 --> 01:06:51,260
E

1460
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:53,940
Eu acordo todas as manhãs e

1461
01:06:54,900 --> 01:06:57,060
acesse o aplicativo e tudo bem, ainda está lá.

1462
01:06:57,420 --> 01:06:57,780
O que você acha?

1463
01:06:57,780 --> 01:06:58,540
Isso foi demais?

1464
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:04,920
Acho que ele tem um algoritmo que mencionamos anteriormente que começa questionando todos os requisitos,

1465
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:07,160
mas cabe a ele deletar, deletar,

1466
01:07:07,460 --> 01:07:07,600
excluir,

1467
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:08,980
exclua todas as partes.

1468
01:07:09,660 --> 01:07:13,080
E então um corolário disso é se você

1469
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:16,420
não acabe adicionando de volta 20% do que você excluiu,

1470
01:07:17,020 --> 01:07:19,060
então você não apagou o suficiente na primeira rodada

1471
01:07:19,340 --> 01:07:20,140
porque você era muito tímido.

1472
01:07:21,180 --> 01:07:22,460
Bem, então você me perguntou,

1473
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:23,740
ele exagerou?

1474
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:26,060
Ele provavelmente superou em 20%,

1475
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:28,480
qual é a fórmula dele.

1476
01:07:28,980 --> 01:07:32,780
E provavelmente estão tentando contratar pessoas agora para manter as coisas funcionando.

1477
01:07:34,300 --> 01:07:39,260
Mas envia um sinal forte para as pessoas que foram contratadas novamente ou para as pessoas que ainda estão lá.

1478
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:40,400
A ideia de abril.

1479
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:48,140
Sim. E o que Steve Jobs e muitos outros grandes líderes sentiram e certamente Bezos e certamente nos primeiros dias da Microsoft Bill Gates

1480
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:51,280
era hardcore, apenas jogadores A.

1481
01:07:52,180 --> 01:07:54,660
Então, quanto você diria do sucesso de Elon?

1482
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:59,340
O sucesso de Elon e Steve Jobs é a contratação e gestão de grandes equipes.

1483
01:07:59,940 --> 01:08:01,600
Quando perguntei a Steve Jobs em determinado momento,

1484
01:08:01,700 --> 01:08:03,800
qual foi o melhor produto que você já criou?

1485
01:08:04,620 --> 01:08:05,480
Eu pensei que ele diria

1486
01:08:06,460 --> 01:08:09,800
talvez o Macintosh ou talvez o iPhone.

1487
01:08:10,620 --> 01:08:12,200
Ele disse, não, esses produtos são difíceis.

1488
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,320
A melhor coisa que já criei foi a equipe

1489
01:08:16,020 --> 01:08:17,500
que fabricava esses produtos.

1490
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:19,920
E essa é a parte difícil: criar uma equipe.

1491
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:22,420
E ele fez, de Johnny Ive a Tim Cook

1492
01:08:23,740 --> 01:08:24,580
e Eddie Q e

1493
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:25,680
Phil Schiller.

1494
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:31,080
Elon fez um bom trabalho trazendo pessoas.

1495
01:08:31,300 --> 01:08:32,020
Gwen Shotwell,

1496
01:08:32,660 --> 01:08:33,220
obviamente,

1497
01:08:33,900 --> 01:08:36,040
Linda Iaccarino, ela pode

1498
01:08:36,440 --> 01:08:39,200
navegar pelas crises atuais.

1499
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,780
Certamente pessoas estelares na SpaceX como Mark Jankos.

1500
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:52,440
E depois na Tesla como Drew Bacalhino e Lars Marravey e Tom Zhu e muitos outros.

1501
01:08:54,440 --> 01:08:57,700
Ele não é tanto um time

1502
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,100
colaborador como diz Benjamin Franklin,

1503
01:09:00,660 --> 01:09:01,280
quem, aliás,

1504
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:02,900
essa é a melhor equipe já criada,

1505
01:09:03,440 --> 01:09:04,140
quais são os fundadores.

1506
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,720
E você tinha que ter pessoas realmente inteligentes como Jefferson e Madison e realmente

1507
01:09:09,070 --> 01:09:15,520
pessoas apaixonadas como John Adams e seu primo Samuel e realmente um cara de grande retidão como Washington.

1508
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:21,040
Mas você também precisava de um Ben Franklin que pudesse reunir todos e formar uma equipe

1509
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,780
fora deles e fazê-los comprometer-se um com o outro.

1510
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,740
Musk é um ímã para talentos incríveis.

1511
01:09:28,580 --> 01:09:29,020
Magnético,

1512
01:09:29,440 --> 01:09:29,860
interessante.

1513
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:35,940
Mas existem as prioridades de contratação baseadas na excelência,

1514
01:09:36,300 --> 01:09:37,480
confiabilidade e motivação.

1515
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:39,560
Essas são coisas que você descreveu ao longo do livro.

1516
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:41,700
Quero dizer, há uma linda

1517
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:46,040
concreto e rigoroso

1518
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:50,040
conjunto de ideias com base nas quais a contratação é feita.

1519
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:50,920
Oh sim.

1520
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:52,500
E ele tem um muito bom,

1521
01:09:53,460 --> 01:09:55,880
sentido aranha e intuitivo

1522
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:57,980
só olhando para as pessoas

1523
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:01,580
quem poderia, quero dizer, não olhando para eles, mas estudando-os

1524
01:10:02,100 --> 01:10:02,740
quem poderia ser bom.

1525
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:05,120
Um dos seus

1526
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,860
formas de operar

1527
01:10:09,700 --> 01:10:11,680
é o que ele chama de reunião de salto de nível.

1528
01:10:12,340 --> 01:10:15,300
E vamos pegar algo muito específico como o motor Raptor,

1529
01:10:15,380 --> 01:10:17,800
que está alimentando a nave estelar.

1530
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:19,500
E não estava indo bem.

1531
01:10:19,540 --> 01:10:21,080
Parecia um arbusto de espaguete e

1532
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:22,500
seria difícil de fabricar.

1533
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:24,360
E ele se livrou das pessoas

1534
01:10:24,980 --> 01:10:26,300
que estavam no comando daquela equipe.

1535
01:10:27,340 --> 01:10:33,080
E lembro que ele passou alguns meses fazendo o que chama de pular nível,

1536
01:10:33,300 --> 01:10:38,460
o que significa que em vez de se reunir com seus subordinados diretos da equipe Raptor,

1537
01:10:38,860 --> 01:10:42,180
ele se encontraria com as pessoas um nível abaixo delas.

1538
01:10:43,180 --> 01:10:45,920
E então ele pularia um nível e se encontraria com eles.

1539
01:10:46,620 --> 01:10:49,740
E ele disse, isto é, e eu apenas pergunto o que eles estão fazendo.

1540
01:10:49,820 --> 01:10:51,280
E eu os treinei com perguntas.

1541
01:10:51,940 --> 01:10:54,900
E ele disse, e é assim que eu descubro quem vai surgir.

1542
01:10:55,500 --> 01:10:56,900
Ele disse que era particularmente difícil.

1543
01:10:57,060 --> 01:10:59,520
Eu estava presente nessas reuniões porque as pessoas usavam máscaras.

1544
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:01,220
Foi durante o auge do COVID.

1545
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:05,620
E ele disse que isso tornou as coisas um pouco mais difíceis para ele porque ele tem que

1546
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:06,980
obtenha a entrada.

1547
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:11,300
Mas eu assisti quando criança, Dreadlocks

1548
01:11:12,100 --> 01:11:14,680
chamado Jacob McKenzie, ele está no livro,

1549
01:11:15,380 --> 01:11:17,660
está sentado lá e ele é um pouco como você.

1550
01:11:18,380 --> 01:11:21,240
A mentalidade da engenharia fala um pouco monótona.

1551
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:26,060
Musk faria uma pergunta e daria uma resposta e a resposta seria muito

1552
01:11:26,060 --> 01:11:28,300
direto e ele não ficou abalado.

1553
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:29,500
Ele era assim.

1554
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:31,460
E Musk disse um dia

1555
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:33,400
liguei para ele às 3 da manhã.

1556
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:35,200
Bem, não direi 3 da manhã, mas depois da meia-noite

1557
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:36,860
disse, você ainda está por aí?

1558
01:11:37,260 --> 01:11:38,640
E Jake disse, sim, ainda estou no trabalho.

1559
01:11:39,060 --> 01:11:42,680
E ele disse: OK, vou colocá-lo no comando da formação da equipe Raptor.

1560
01:11:43,700 --> 01:11:45,300
E isso foi tipo

1561
01:11:45,900 --> 01:11:46,940
uma grande surpresa.

1562
01:11:47,500 --> 01:11:50,520
Mas Jacob McKenzie agora ganhou uma versão do Raptor

1563
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,470
e quando eles estão construindo ele pelo menos um por semana e eles são incríveis.

1564
01:11:54,260 --> 01:11:57,680
E é aí que o seu talento,

1565
01:11:58,380 --> 01:12:03,940
O talento de Musk para encontrar a pessoa certa e promovê-la.

1566
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:05,560
É onde está.

1567
01:12:05,740 --> 01:12:07,240
E promovê-lo de uma forma onde

1568
01:12:08,060 --> 01:12:09,700
é como se aqui estivesse a bola,

1569
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:10,720
aqui pega.

1570
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:11,420
Yeah, yeah.

1571
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:13,100
E você corre com isso.

1572
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:18,340
Eu interagi com algumas pessoas até mesmo do Modelo X,

1573
01:12:19,460 --> 01:12:20,320
em toda parte,

1574
01:12:20,780 --> 01:12:21,340
onde pessoas,

1575
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:22,540
você sabe, no papel não parece que seriam.

1576
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:26,120
capazes de executar a coisa e eles a executam com muito sucesso.

1577
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:27,140
E ele faz isso errado.

1578
01:12:27,340 --> 01:12:30,340
Às vezes ele teve um histórico horrível com o telhado solar

1579
01:12:31,020 --> 01:12:31,670
divisão.

1580
01:12:32,480 --> 01:12:34,260
Um cara maravilhoso chamado Brian Dow.

1581
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:35,680
Eu realmente gostei dele.

1582
01:12:36,300 --> 01:12:39,840
E quando eles estavam fazendo o aumento da fábrica de baterias em Nevada,

1583
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:43,880
Musk se livrou de duas ou três pessoas e aí está Brian Dow.

1584
01:12:44,260 --> 01:12:45,580
Pode fazer, pode fazer, pode fazer.

1585
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:47,540
Fica acordado a noite toda e é promovido e dirige.

1586
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:52,640
E então, finalmente, Musk passa por duas ou três pessoas que dirigem a divisão de telhados solares.

1587
01:12:53,380 --> 01:12:54,740
Finalmente liga para Brian Dow.

1588
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,060
Eu estava sentado na casa do Musk em Boca Chica, aquele pequenino

1589
01:12:58,760 --> 01:12:59,600
dois quartos ele tem.

1590
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:04,160
E ele oferece a Brian Dow o trabalho de administrar um telhado solar.

1591
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:08,240
E você sabe, Brian aí, ok, posso fazer, posso fazer.

1592
01:13:09,060 --> 01:13:14,180
E duas ou três vezes Musk insistiu que instalassem um sistema solar

1593
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:16,760
telhado de uma daquelas casas em Boca Chica.

1594
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:19,760
Esta é esta pequena vila no extremo sul do Texas.

1595
01:13:21,020 --> 01:13:21,880
E tarde da noite,

1596
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:25,140
Quero dizer, eu teria que subir até o topo do telhado com estes

1597
01:13:25,380 --> 01:13:27,400
escadas e ficar neste telhado pontiagudo

1598
01:13:27,940 --> 01:13:29,640
como Musk está dizendo,

1599
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:31,900
por que precisamos de quatro parafusos para

1600
01:13:31,900 --> 01:13:33,660
colocar nesta perna única?

1601
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:37,220
E Brian estava suando e fazendo tudo.

1602
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:41,480
Mas depois de alguns meses as coisas não estavam indo bem e bum,

1603
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:44,060
Musk acabou de demiti-lo.

1604
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:46,180
Então eu sempre tento aprender,

1605
01:13:46,820 --> 01:13:50,460
o que faz aqueles que ficam prosperarem?

1606
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:52,400
Qual é a lição aí?

1607
01:13:52,460 --> 01:13:52,900
O que você acha?

1608
01:13:53,340 --> 01:13:57,220
Bem, acho que é autoconhecimento como Andy Krebs ou outros.

1609
01:13:58,160 --> 01:13:58,600
Eles dizem,

1610
01:13:59,980 --> 01:14:00,600
Eu sou incondicional.

1611
01:14:00,780 --> 01:14:04,560
Eu realmente quero levar um foguete para Marte e isso é mais importante do que qualquer outra coisa.

1612
01:14:06,020 --> 01:14:07,380
Uma das pessoas,

1613
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:09,240
Acho que é Tim Zeman,

1614
01:14:09,380 --> 01:14:10,780
Espero que quando ele ouvir isso,

1615
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:12,440
Estou conseguindo para ele a pessoa certa,

1616
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:14,440
quem demorou.

1617
01:14:14,440 --> 01:14:17,940
Estava funcionando para o piloto automático Tesla e era muito intenso.

1618
01:14:17,940 --> 01:14:20,620
Ele tirou uma folga e depois foi para outra empresa.

1619
01:14:21,060 --> 01:14:23,380
Ele disse, eu estava exausto em Tesla,

1620
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:25,940
mas então fiquei entediado no próximo lugar.

1621
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:26,680
Então eu liguei,

1622
01:14:27,260 --> 01:14:28,820
Acho que foi Ashok em Tesla,

1623
01:14:28,860 --> 01:14:29,820
disse, posso voltar?

1624
01:14:29,860 --> 01:14:30,440
Ele disse, claro.

1625
01:14:30,440 --> 01:14:32,580
Ele disse, eu aprendi sobre mim mesmo.

1626
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:34,400
Prefiro ficar esgotado do que entediado.

1627
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:36,000
Essa é uma boa frase.

1628
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:39,060
Você pode apenas permanecer

1629
01:14:39,740 --> 01:14:41,260
um dos três que

1630
01:14:41,260 --> 01:14:43,380
parece interessante para você em termos de excelência,

1631
01:14:43,700 --> 01:14:44,660
confiabilidade e direção?

1632
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:45,840
Qual você acha

1633
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:48,380
é o mais importante e o mais difícil de alcançar?

1634
01:14:48,540 --> 01:14:50,100
A confiabilidade é interessante.

1635
01:14:51,100 --> 01:14:52,880
Você anda ou morre?

1636
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:53,860
Sim.

1637
01:14:54,220 --> 01:14:56,940
Acho que especialmente quando se trata de assumir o controle do Twitter,

1638
01:14:57,060 --> 01:15:00,280
ele achava que metade das pessoas eram desleais e ele estava errado.

1639
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:02,680
Cerca de dois terços eram desleais, e não apenas metade.

1640
01:15:03,740 --> 01:15:06,040
Foi como podemos eliminá-los?

1641
01:15:06,220 --> 01:15:09,600
Ele fez alguma coisa e formou o pelotão de fuzilamento,

1642
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:13,180
Eu chamo isso, ou Mosqueteiros, acho que é o meu apelido para eles,

1643
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:15,400
quais são os primos jovens

1644
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:16,740
e duas ou três outras pessoas.

1645
01:15:17,480 --> 01:15:18,900
Ele os fez olhar as mensagens do Slack

1646
01:15:19,540 --> 01:15:20,560
essas pessoas postaram.

1647
01:15:20,820 --> 01:15:22,040
Todo mundo no Twitter postou

1648
01:15:22,780 --> 01:15:24,980
e eles passaram por centenas de mensagens do Slack.

1649
01:15:25,440 --> 01:15:29,040
Se alguém postou no Slack interno,

1650
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:33,000
aquele idiota, Elon Musk, vai assumir e eu estou

1651
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:35,740
com medo de que ele seja um maníaco ou algo assim,

1652
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:37,560
eles seriam

1653
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:41,200
na lista porque querem lealdade total.

1654
01:15:42,060 --> 01:15:48,580
Eles não olharam as mensagens privadas do Slack e acho que as pessoas que estão postando em um Slack corporativo

1655
01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:52,920
o conselho deve estar ciente de que sua empresa pode analisá-los.

1656
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:56,360
Mas isso é mais do que eu teria feito

1657
01:15:56,360 --> 01:15:57,540
ou a maioria das pessoas teria feito.

1658
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:01,500
Isso foi para descobrir quem é profundamente comprometido e leal.

1659
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:03,440
Acho que foi principalmente o caso

1660
01:16:04,100 --> 01:16:04,600
no Twitter.

1661
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:08,020
Ele não fica sentado na SpaceX dizendo quem é leal a mim.

1662
01:16:09,540 --> 01:16:12,040
Em outros lugares,

1663
01:16:13,380 --> 01:16:17,700
é excelência, mas isso é um dado adquirido.

1664
01:16:18,300 --> 01:16:20,240
Todo mundo é como um Marc Jancosa,

1665
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:21,260
apenas chicoteie com inteligência.

1666
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:23,800
Você é hardcore e all-in,

1667
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:25,780
especialmente se você tiver que mudar para isso

1668
01:16:26,740 --> 01:16:30,280
ponta de uma cidade no extremo sul do Texas chamada Boca Chica,

1669
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:32,660
você tem que estar all-in.

1670
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:33,240
Sim.

1671
01:16:33,660 --> 01:16:35,900
Essa é a unidade, a última peça.

1672
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:38,820
Você, em termos de colaboração,

1673
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:40,500
uma das grandes equipes de todos os tempos,

1674
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:41,260
Bem Franklin.

1675
01:16:41,260 --> 01:16:41,940
Eu gosto disso.

1676
01:16:42,740 --> 01:16:43,560
Eu pensei que eram os Beatles,

1677
01:16:43,740 --> 01:16:44,880
mas Ben Franklin é muito bom.

1678
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:46,080
Ah, não, não, não.

1679
01:16:46,120 --> 01:16:46,960
Desculpe.

1680
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:47,160
Sim.

1681
01:16:47,220 --> 01:16:48,100
Desculpe te ofender tanto.

1682
01:16:48,140 --> 01:16:50,400
Leia a Constituição e leia Abbey Road.

1683
01:16:50,620 --> 01:16:51,260
Veja Abbey Road.

1684
01:16:51,440 --> 01:16:53,060
Ambos são bons, mas estão em uma liga diferente.

1685
01:16:53,180 --> 01:16:53,920
Sim, uma liga diferente.

1686
01:16:55,030 --> 01:16:58,680
Uma das muitas coisas que vem à mente com Ben Franklin é

1687
01:16:59,260 --> 01:17:00,560
gerenciamento de tempo incrível.

1688
01:17:01,850 --> 01:17:04,920
Há algo que você poderia dizer sobre

1689
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:08,920
Ben Franklin e cerca

1690
01:17:09,540 --> 01:17:10,080
Steve Jobs?

1691
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:12,760
Acho interessante com Elon é que ele, enquanto você escreve,

1692
01:17:13,820 --> 01:17:15,020
administra seis empresas,

1693
01:17:16,420 --> 01:17:19,440
depende do quanto você assusta porque é coisa própria, não sei.

1694
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:24,500
O que você pode dizer sobre essas pessoas em termos de gerenciamento de tempo?

1695
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:29,900
Bem, Musk está em uma categoria à parte na maneira como faz isso.

1696
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:31,080
Em primeiro lugar,

1697
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:35,500
Steve Jobs teve que dirigir a Pixar e a Apple por um tempo,

1698
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:36,680
mas Almíscar,

1699
01:17:37,900 --> 01:17:45,020
a cada duas horas está mudando sua mentalidade de como implantar o chip de link neural e o que acontecerá

1700
01:17:45,020 --> 01:17:49,620
a aparência do robô que o implanta no cérebro e quão rápido podemos fazê-lo se mover,

1701
01:17:50,440 --> 01:17:51,020
e então

1702
01:17:51,580 --> 01:17:53,140
o escudo térmico no Raptor

1703
01:17:53,660 --> 01:17:54,120
ou

1704
01:17:54,860 --> 01:17:55,640
Mudando para

1705
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:57,320
imitação humana,

1706
01:17:57,760 --> 01:17:58,920
aprendizado de máquina, autocondução total.

1707
01:17:59,820 --> 01:18:02,640
Na noite em que o fórum do Twitter

1708
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:04,900
concordou com o acordo,

1709
01:18:05,660 --> 01:18:07,440
isso é enorme em todo o mundo.

1710
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:08,500
Tenho certeza que você se lembra,

1711
01:18:08,740 --> 01:18:10,780
como Musk compra o Twitter.

1712
01:18:11,380 --> 01:18:12,340
Não foi quando o negócio foi fechado.

1713
01:18:12,420 --> 01:18:13,040
Foi quando

1714
01:18:13,670 --> 01:18:15,520
o Twitter aceitou sua oferta.

1715
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:17,140
Eu pensei, ok,

1716
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:19,000
mas então ele foi

1717
01:18:19,660 --> 01:18:20,300
para Boca Chica,

1718
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:21,600
para o sul do Texas,

1719
01:18:22,700 --> 01:18:26,200
e passei tempo fixando,

1720
01:18:26,620 --> 01:18:27,900
se eu me lembro bem,

1721
01:18:28,460 --> 01:18:30,800
uma válvula no motor Raptor que

1722
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:32,380
teve um problema de vazamento de metano,

1723
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:37,420
e quais foram as maneiras possíveis de corrigi-lo.

1724
01:18:38,300 --> 01:18:40,420
Todos os engenheiros naquela sala,

1725
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:43,000
Eu presumo, estamos pensando,

1726
01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:44,500
esse cara acabou de comprar o Twitter,

1727
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:45,420
deveríamos dizer alguma coisa,

1728
01:18:46,300 --> 01:18:50,860
e então ele vai com Kimball para um restaurante na beira da estrada

1729
01:18:51,780 --> 01:18:53,420
em Brownsville

1730
01:18:53,940 --> 01:18:58,140
e apenas senta na frente e ouve música sem que ninguém perceba que ele está ali.

1731
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:04,220
Uma das coisas que é um de seus pontos fortes e fracos de certa forma

1732
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:06,340
é em um determinado dia,

1733
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:08,100
inferno

1734
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:10,740
foco em série,

1735
01:19:11,100 --> 01:19:13,580
sequencialmente em muitas coisas diferentes.

1736
01:19:14,140 --> 01:19:19,240
Ele vai se preocupar em enviar vídeo

1737
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,400
em x.com ou no sistema de pagamento,

1738
01:19:22,740 --> 01:19:24,500
e então mude imediatamente

1739
01:19:25,100 --> 01:19:26,620
para algum problema com

1740
01:19:26,620 --> 01:19:34,140
a FAA concedendo licença para Starship ou como lidar com Starlink e a CIA.

1741
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:37,500
Quando ele está focado em qualquer uma dessas coisas,

1742
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:41,200
você não pode distraí-lo.

1743
01:19:41,440 --> 01:19:43,460
Não é como se ele também estivesse pensando

1744
01:19:44,020 --> 01:19:48,380
lidando com Starlink, mas também preciso me preocupar com a decisão da Tesla sobre

1745
01:19:48,980 --> 01:19:50,780
o novo carro de $ 25.000.

1746
01:19:51,660 --> 01:19:54,000
Agora, ele irá, entre essas sessões,

1747
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:56,380
processo de informação,

1748
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:57,760
então desabafe.

1749
01:19:58,600 --> 01:19:59,380
Para melhor ou pior,

1750
01:19:59,460 --> 01:20:00,500
ele desabafa

1751
01:20:01,620 --> 01:20:04,940
jogando com um amigo na politopia ou

1752
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:06,620
disparar alguns tweets,

1753
01:20:06,980 --> 01:20:09,220
o que muitas vezes não é uma coisa saudável,

1754
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:12,160
mas é uma libertação para ele.

1755
01:20:13,830 --> 01:20:16,360
Uma vez eu disse que ele era um grande multitarefa,

1756
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:17,700
e isso foi um erro.

1757
01:20:18,260 --> 01:20:19,080
As pessoas me corrigiram.

1758
01:20:19,440 --> 01:20:20,720
Ele é um tasker em série,

1759
01:20:21,580 --> 01:20:25,280
o que significa concentrar-se intensamente em uma tarefa por uma hora,

1760
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:29,240
quase tem um, como eles chamam,

1761
01:20:29,360 --> 01:20:32,360
em restaurantes onde lhe dão um limpador de paladar.

1762
01:20:32,700 --> 01:20:34,600
Ele faz um limpador de palato com

1763
01:20:34,990 --> 01:20:37,640
politopia e então se concentra na próxima tarefa.

1764
01:20:38,220 --> 01:20:40,320
Existe alguma sabedoria sobre gerenciamento de tempo

1765
01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:41,860
que você pode tirar disso?

1766
01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:44,340
Há algumas coisas que essas pessoas fazem e você diz:

1767
01:20:44,780 --> 01:20:46,160
ok, eu posso ser assim.

1768
01:20:46,220 --> 01:20:47,180
Posso ficar mais curioso.

1769
01:20:47,220 --> 01:20:49,160
Posso questionar todas as regras e regulamentos.

1770
01:20:50,620 --> 01:20:52,920
Eu simplesmente não acho que ninguém

1771
01:20:53,740 --> 01:20:59,700
deveria tentar imitar o estilo de gerenciamento de tempo de Musk porque é preciso

1772
01:21:00,180 --> 01:21:04,860
um certo conjunto de equipes que sabem como lidar com todo o resto, exceto aquilo em que ele está se concentrando

1773
01:21:05,540 --> 01:21:07,280
e um certo

1774
01:21:07,820 --> 01:21:10,440
mente que pode mudar,

1775
01:21:10,940 --> 01:21:12,760
assim como seu humor pode mudar.

1776
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:14,980
Você e eu passamos

1777
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,100
transições e também se estou pensando em

1778
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:19,020
o que vou dizer neste podcast,

1779
01:21:19,060 --> 01:21:23,340
Também estou pensando no e-mail que minha filha acabou de enviar sobre uma casa que ela está procurando

1780
01:21:23,340 --> 01:21:26,020
em, e sou multitarefa.

1781
01:21:26,700 --> 01:21:27,760
Na verdade, ele não faz isso.

1782
01:21:27,780 --> 01:21:31,280
Ele executa tarefas sequencialmente com

1783
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:33,200
um foco que é hardcore.

1784
01:21:33,660 --> 01:21:34,040
Não sei.

1785
01:21:34,140 --> 01:21:35,640
Acho que há sabedoria em extrair disso.

1786
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:38,220
Primeiro de tudo, ele me faz,

1787
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:40,280
Ben Franklin me faz sentir assim,

1788
01:21:41,020 --> 01:21:42,860
que há muitas horas no dia.

1789
01:21:43,180 --> 01:21:45,160
Há muitos minutos no dia.

1790
01:21:46,340 --> 01:21:50,380
Não há desculpa para não fazer muita coisa e isso requer apenas um foco extremo,

1791
01:21:51,380 --> 01:21:53,540
um foco extremo e uma urgência.

1792
01:21:54,260 --> 01:21:58,920
Penso que a urgência feroz que

1793
01:22:00,340 --> 01:22:02,240
o leva é importante

1794
01:22:03,060 --> 01:22:04,620
e às vezes é exagerado.

1795
01:22:05,860 --> 01:22:10,280
Como eu disse, a urgência feroz de chegar a Marte e numa sexta-feira à noite

1796
01:22:10,980 --> 01:22:15,400
na plataforma de lançamento em Boca Chica às 22h,

1797
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:17,420
há poucas pessoas trabalhando porque é sexta-feira

1798
01:22:17,420 --> 01:22:17,720
noite.

1799
01:22:17,740 --> 01:22:20,020
Eles não devem ser lançados antes de oito meses.

1800
01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:22,440
E ele ordena uma onda.

1801
01:22:23,020 --> 01:22:26,260
Ele diz: Quero 200 pessoas aqui amanhã trabalhando neste bloco.

1802
01:22:26,940 --> 01:22:29,040
Precisamos ter um forte senso de urgência

1803
01:22:29,040 --> 01:22:30,740
ou nunca chegaremos a Marte.

1804
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:37,720
Esse senso de urgência também é uma vibração

1805
01:22:38,870 --> 01:22:42,340
isso é como realmente assumir a vida plenamente.

1806
01:22:42,580 --> 01:22:44,840
Quero dizer, para mim, essa é a lição,

1807
01:22:45,660 --> 01:22:49,260
até mesmo o mundano pode estar repleto dessa riqueza justa.

1808
01:22:49,540 --> 01:22:54,400
E como se você realmente tivesse que absorver isso intensamente.

1809
01:22:54,980 --> 01:22:56,180
Então, como a mudança

1810
01:22:57,400 --> 01:22:58,780
permite esse tipo de intensidade

1811
01:22:58,780 --> 01:23:00,420
porque a maioria de nós não consegue manter essa intensidade

1812
01:23:00,420 --> 01:23:02,420
em qualquer tarefa por um período prolongado de tempo.

1813
01:23:03,140 --> 01:23:04,360
Talvez isso também seja uma lição.

1814
01:23:05,780 --> 01:23:06,020
Certo.

1815
01:23:06,380 --> 01:23:08,880
E eu acho que isso remonta também a saber quem você é,

1816
01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:10,820
ou seja, há pessoas que

1817
01:23:12,100 --> 01:23:16,300
consegue se concentrar intensamente e há pessoas que conseguem ver padrões em muitas coisas.

1818
01:23:16,580 --> 01:23:18,040
Olha, Leonardo da Vinci,

1819
01:23:19,180 --> 01:23:20,860
ele não estava tão focado.

1820
01:23:21,420 --> 01:23:23,540
Ele se distraía facilmente.

1821
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:24,000
Procrastinar.

1822
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:26,760
É por isso que ele tem mais pinturas inacabadas

1823
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:28,820
do que pinturas acabadas em seu cânone.

1824
01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:32,300
Mas sua capacidade de

1825
01:23:33,220 --> 01:23:35,320
veja padrões em toda a natureza

1826
01:23:35,380 --> 01:23:39,340
e de alguma forma processar, procrastinar,

1827
01:23:39,720 --> 01:23:40,640
estar distraído,

1828
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:42,860
isso o ajudou um pouco,

1829
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:46,260
mas Musk não é assim.

1830
01:23:46,580 --> 01:23:47,060
E lá

1831
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:50,340
a cada poucos meses como uma nova onda,

1832
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:51,820
você não sabe onde estará,

1833
01:23:51,940 --> 01:23:56,480
mas você estará em telhados solares e de repente teremos uma onda e tem que haver,

1834
01:23:56,480 --> 01:24:00,420
você sabe, cem telhados solares construídos ou isso tem que ser feito amanhã ou

1835
01:24:01,060 --> 01:24:05,200
faça uma cúpula de nave estelar ao amanhecer e surja e faça isso.

1836
01:24:06,230 --> 01:24:08,640
E há pessoas que são construídas dessa forma.

1837
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:10,000
É inspirador,

1838
01:24:10,900 --> 01:24:12,750
mas também vamos apreciar,

1839
01:24:13,440 --> 01:24:16,820
você sabe, que existem pessoas que podem ser realmente boas,

1840
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:22,900
mas também pode saborear

1841
01:24:24,180 --> 01:24:24,800
o sucesso,

1842
01:24:25,140 --> 01:24:25,780
saborear o momento,

1843
01:24:26,180 --> 01:24:27,900
saboreie o silêncio às vezes.

1844
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:32,260
A grande falha de Musk é que ele não consegue saborear

1845
01:24:33,300 --> 01:24:33,980
o momento

1846
01:24:34,500 --> 01:24:35,060
ou sucesso.

1847
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:38,700
E esse é o outro lado da intensidade hardcore.

1848
01:24:40,440 --> 01:24:41,760
Em Inovadores, outro

1849
01:24:42,380 --> 01:24:43,500
livro seu que eu amo,

1850
01:24:43,620 --> 01:24:45,600
você escreve sobre indivíduos e sobre grupos.

1851
01:24:46,540 --> 01:24:49,820
Portanto, uma das questões que o livro aborda é:

1852
01:24:49,900 --> 01:24:51,660
são indivíduos ou são

1853
01:24:51,660 --> 01:24:53,420
são os grupos que mudam o rumo da história?

1854
01:24:55,340 --> 01:25:02,300
Quando Henry Kissinger estava nas missões do ônibus espacial para o Oriente Médio, a paz foi o primeiro livro que escrevi.

1855
01:25:03,380 --> 01:25:05,440
Ele disse, quando eu era professor em Harvard,

1856
01:25:06,580 --> 01:25:09,020
Eu pensei que a história foi determinada por grandes

1857
01:25:09,140 --> 01:25:11,360
forças e grupos de pessoas.

1858
01:25:12,660 --> 01:25:13,980
Mas quando vejo isso de perto,

1859
01:25:14,180 --> 01:25:17,060
Vejo a diferença que um indivíduo pode fazer.

1860
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:21,740
Ele está falando sobre Sadat e Golda Meir, provavelmente falando sobre si mesmo também,

1861
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:23,920
ou pelo menos em sua mente.

1862
01:25:25,340 --> 01:25:28,400
E nós, biógrafos, temos esse segredo sujo que conhecemos,

1863
01:25:28,500 --> 01:25:29,700
nós distorcemos a história

1864
01:25:29,700 --> 01:25:32,640
pouco por tornar a narrativa muito conduzida por um indivíduo.

1865
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:35,460
Mas às vezes é impulsionado por

1866
01:25:35,460 --> 01:25:35,940
um indivíduo.

1867
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:37,380
Musk é um caso assim.

1868
01:25:37,660 --> 01:25:39,880
E às vezes, como fiz com os Inovadores,

1869
01:25:41,020 --> 01:25:46,010
há equipes e pessoas que se baseiam umas nas outras e Gordon Moore e Bob Noyce,

1870
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:48,500
depois peguei Andy Grove e fiz o microchip,

1871
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:52,680
que então sai e Wozniak e Jobs encontram

1872
01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:57,400
em alguma loja de eletrônicos e decidem construir o Apple.

1873
01:25:59,380 --> 01:26:01,160
E então às vezes há

1874
01:26:02,020 --> 01:26:05,460
são fluxos de forças e grupos de pessoas.

1875
01:26:06,200 --> 01:26:09,560
Acho que errei um pouco por olhar

1876
01:26:09,990 --> 01:26:12,760
no que Steve Jobs e Elon Musk

1877
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:15,200
e Albert Einstein pode fazer.

1878
01:26:16,180 --> 01:26:18,040
E eu também tento descobrir

1879
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:19,260
fora se eles não estivessem por perto,

1880
01:26:19,420 --> 01:26:21,280
as forças da história e os grupos de pessoas

1881
01:26:21,620 --> 01:26:22,880
fizeram isso sem eles?

1882
01:26:23,240 --> 01:26:27,220
Essa é uma boa pergunta histórica para alguém que ama história.

1883
01:26:28,100 --> 01:26:29,060
E você pensa sobre

1884
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:30,640
relatividade especial,

1885
01:26:31,060 --> 01:26:32,620
um dos artigos de 1905.

1886
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:36,200
Mesmo depois de ele escrever,

1887
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:38,760
leva quatro anos até que as pessoas realmente entendam o que ele está dizendo,

1888
01:26:38,820 --> 01:26:40,840
que não é apenas como você

1889
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:42,140
observar o tempo é relativo,

1890
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:44,100
é o tempo em si é relativo.

1891
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:46,160
E na teoria geral,

1892
01:26:46,320 --> 01:26:47,720
o que ele faz uma década depois,

1893
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:50,760
Não tenho certeza se conseguiríamos isso ainda.

1894
01:26:51,300 --> 01:26:53,480
Que tal nos mudar para

1895
01:26:53,480 --> 01:26:59,560
a era de um iPhone em que é tão lindo que você não consegue viver sem mil músicas no bolso,

1896
01:27:00,300 --> 01:27:01,100
e-mail e

1897
01:27:01,740 --> 01:27:04,260
a internet no bolso e um telefone?

1898
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:07,440
Há muitos

1899
01:27:07,440 --> 01:27:11,280
pessoas com morte cerebral vão da Panasonic à Motorola que não entenderam isso.

1900
01:27:11,300 --> 01:27:12,540
E pode ter passado um tempo.

1901
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:16,220
Certamente acho que isso se aplica à era dos veículos elétricos.

1902
01:27:16,980 --> 01:27:17,640
Jim e Ford,

1903
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:19,320
todas as grandes pessoas lá,

1904
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:21,100
eles esmagaram o ferrolho.

1905
01:27:21,200 --> 01:27:22,260
E quero dizer isso literalmente,

1906
01:27:22,320 --> 01:27:23,840
eles acabaram arrasando

1907
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:26,200
porque decidiram interrompê-lo.

1908
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:27,180
Da mesma maneira,

1909
01:27:27,780 --> 01:27:29,100
ninguém estava enviando foguetes.

1910
01:27:29,740 --> 01:27:31,940
Nosso ônibus espacial estava prestes a aterrar

1911
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:33,780
Há 12 anos.

1912
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:38,160
E então Musk faz as coisas

1913
01:27:39,220 --> 01:27:40,760
e haverá pessoas que dirão:

1914
01:27:41,300 --> 01:27:42,240
se eles lerem o livro,

1915
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:43,340
eles verão a história completa.

1916
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:44,060
Mas eles dizem isso

1917
01:27:44,060 --> 01:27:45,460
não foi Musk quem fez Tesla,

1918
01:27:45,580 --> 01:27:46,980
foi Martin Abba Hart ou Mark Tarpenning.

1919
01:27:47,300 --> 01:27:47,620
Não não,

1920
01:27:48,220 --> 01:27:48,300
não.

1921
01:27:48,340 --> 01:27:50,460
Houve pessoas que ajudaram

1922
01:27:51,460 --> 01:27:55,040
criar as cascas de empresas e outras coisas

1923
01:27:55,580 --> 01:27:58,560
e todos mereciam ser chamados de cofundadores.

1924
01:27:59,300 --> 01:28:00,640
Mas o cara que realmente

1925
01:28:01,200 --> 01:28:02,140
nos leva a um milhão

1926
01:28:02,160 --> 01:28:03,620
veículos elétricos por ano

1927
01:28:04,480 --> 01:28:05,220
é Elon Musk.

1928
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:05,900
E sem ele,

1929
01:28:07,240 --> 01:28:09,300
Eu não acho que nós...

1930
01:28:09,300 --> 01:28:09,560
Olhar,

1931
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:15,860
se alguém daqui a cinco anos comprar um carro movido a gasolina,

1932
01:28:16,380 --> 01:28:18,830
vamos pensar que isso é estranho, isso é

1933
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:19,500
chance.

1934
01:28:20,380 --> 01:28:21,660
Quero dizer, de repente mudamos.

1935
01:28:21,820 --> 01:28:22,680
Nós não vamos fazer isso.

1936
01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:25,000
90% disso é Elon Musk.

1937
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:26,900
Somos todos mortais.

1938
01:28:27,820 --> 01:28:32,500
Quando e como você acha que Elon se aposentará do setor insanamente produtivo

1939
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:33,980
horário em que ele está agora?

1940
01:28:35,160 --> 01:28:37,340
Eu pensaria que ele odiaria se aposentar.

1941
01:28:37,640 --> 01:28:39,520
Eu acho que ele não pode viver

1942
01:28:40,820 --> 01:28:41,900
sem a pressão,

1943
01:28:42,260 --> 01:28:42,920
O drama,

1944
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:45,920
tudo em sentimento.

1945
01:28:49,140 --> 01:28:53,800
Nunca houve nada que parecesse ter passado pela sua cabeça.

1946
01:28:54,260 --> 01:28:54,880
Ele nunca disse,

1947
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:58,940
talvez eu ame a casa de Larry Ellison na praia do Havaí.

1948
01:28:59,140 --> 01:28:59,820
Talvez eu deva

1949
01:29:00,420 --> 01:29:01,240
gaste tempo fazendo.

1950
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:03,240
Em vez disso, ele diz coisas como,

1951
01:29:03,420 --> 01:29:06,380
Aprendi desde cedo que as férias vão matar você.

1952
01:29:07,620 --> 01:29:09,420
Ele contrai malária quando sai de férias.

1953
01:29:09,700 --> 01:29:11,360
Quero dizer, ele sai de férias à uma

1954
01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:13,260
ponto e eles o expulsaram do PayPal.

1955
01:29:13,480 --> 01:29:14,800
E então ele vai para a África um ponto,

1956
01:29:14,940 --> 01:29:15,720
ele pega malária.

1957
01:29:15,860 --> 01:29:17,240
Ele diz, eu aprendi, as férias matam você.

1958
01:29:17,260 --> 01:29:17,780
Lição aprendida.

1959
01:29:18,380 --> 01:29:20,360
Bem, é interessante porque os projetos são

1960
01:29:21,020 --> 01:29:22,960
projetos de mais de cem anos.

1961
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:23,900
Muitos desses.

1962
01:29:24,020 --> 01:29:25,600
Uma das coisas estranhas

1963
01:29:27,260 --> 01:29:28,580
está observando ele pensar

1964
01:29:29,540 --> 01:29:30,880
incrivelmente longo prazo.

1965
01:29:31,740 --> 01:29:33,340
Uma das reuniões toda semana

1966
01:29:34,180 --> 01:29:36,980
no início, quando eu estava observando ele

1967
01:29:37,500 --> 01:29:39,120
foi colonizador de Marte.

1968
01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:41,380
E fizemos duas horas

1969
01:29:41,380 --> 01:29:45,020
reunião sobre qual seria a estrutura de governança em Marte?

1970
01:29:46,020 --> 01:29:47,200
O que as pessoas vestiriam?

1971
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:49,440
Como funcionariam os robôs?

1972
01:29:51,500 --> 01:29:54,560
E haveria democracia ou deveria haver

1973
01:29:55,340 --> 01:29:58,300
uma forma diferente de governança?

1974
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:00,180
Estou sentado lá dizendo:

1975
01:30:01,040 --> 01:30:01,520
o que eles estão fazendo?

1976
01:30:01,620 --> 01:30:02,360
Do que eles estão falando?

1977
01:30:02,980 --> 01:30:04,780
Eles estão tentando construir foguetes e tudo mais.

1978
01:30:05,480 --> 01:30:08,140
Eles estão preocupados com a estrutura de governação de Marte.

1979
01:30:08,740 --> 01:30:09,520
E da mesma forma,

1980
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:13,840
sempre que ele está em um momento tenso,

1981
01:30:14,140 --> 01:30:14,840
como se houvesse um foguete que

1982
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:15,660
prestes a ser lançado,

1983
01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:18,780
ele começará a perguntar algo às pessoas no futuro,

1984
01:30:19,580 --> 01:30:20,720
como o novo

1985
01:30:21,840 --> 01:30:23,480
motor principal ou algo assim.

1986
01:30:23,540 --> 01:30:24,360
Se vamos construir isso,

1987
01:30:24,680 --> 01:30:26,780
temos materiais suficientes prontos para

1988
01:30:26,780 --> 01:30:28,980
pedir ou não sei,

1989
01:30:28,980 --> 01:30:31,280
ele apenas fará perguntas

1990
01:30:33,180 --> 01:30:35,460
como quando ele está construindo um táxi-robô,

1991
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:39,440
o carro global, o carro global barato de US$ 25 mil.

1992
01:30:39,940 --> 01:30:41,280
Isso não é uma paixão total.

1993
01:30:41,480 --> 01:30:43,280
Ele foi convencido a fazer isso.

1994
01:30:43,700 --> 01:30:44,960
Sua paixão são táxis robôs,

1995
01:30:45,740 --> 01:30:48,480
mas a paixão dele é como vamos fazer essa fábrica

1996
01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:50,540
fazer um milhão de carros por ano?

1997
01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:55,840
Portanto, mesmo o táxi-robô é uma visão de longo alcance.

1998
01:30:55,980 --> 01:30:58,340
Quero dizer, ele está divulgando isso desde 2016,

1999
01:30:59,500 --> 01:31:00,820
mas não estamos.

2000
01:31:01,540 --> 01:31:02,740
Não existem táxis robôs.

2001
01:31:02,940 --> 01:31:03,120
Quero dizer,

2002
01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:06,460
Waymo pode estar fazendo um pequeno experimento, mas não há

2003
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:09,800
carros sendo fabricados sem direção

2004
01:31:09,850 --> 01:31:12,140
rodas que vão dominar as rodovias.

2005
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:13,480
Sim.

2006
01:31:13,480 --> 01:31:16,580
Então ele está sempre olhando para o futuro, é o que quero dizer.

2007
01:31:17,260 --> 01:31:25,230
Só espero que haja muitos Da Vinci, Steve Jobs e Einstein

2008
01:31:25,420 --> 01:31:28,760
e os de Elon Musk que levam a chama adiante.

2009
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:30,340
Essa é uma das razões pelas quais você escreve livros

2010
01:31:30,340 --> 01:31:32,340
sobre essas pessoas é para que

2011
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:36,320
se você é uma jovem em uma escola onde não lhe dizem

2012
01:31:36,340 --> 01:31:40,040
fazer ciência e você leu o decifrador de códigos sobre Jennifer Doudna,

2013
01:31:40,340 --> 01:31:40,960
você diz, ok,

2014
01:31:41,280 --> 01:31:42,260
Eu posso ser isso.

2015
01:31:42,700 --> 01:31:44,180
E quando você diz,

2016
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:47,720
ah, talvez eu seja um regulador ou você diga,

2017
01:31:47,720 --> 01:31:49,960
ah, não, talvez eu seja a pessoa que empurra

2018
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:52,840
os limites, quem ultrapassa os limites,

2019
01:31:53,100 --> 01:31:55,860
que impulsiona, como disse Steve Jobs, a raça humana.

2020
01:31:57,160 --> 01:31:58,280
Bem, deixe-me perguntar sobre

2021
01:31:59,200 --> 01:31:59,940
sua mente,

2022
01:32:01,020 --> 01:32:01,660
seu gênio,

2023
01:32:02,720 --> 01:32:03,660
seu processo.

2024
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:05,640
Vou te dar dois de três.

2025
01:32:05,940 --> 01:32:06,240
Tudo bem.

2026
01:32:07,140 --> 01:32:08,900
Conte-me sobre seu processo de escrever uma biografia.

2027
01:32:09,540 --> 01:32:09,820
Quero dizer,

2028
01:32:10,320 --> 01:32:11,260
o máximo disso.

2029
01:32:11,900 --> 01:32:13,240
E não apenas escrevendo uma biografia,

2030
01:32:13,820 --> 01:32:16,960
mas entendendo profundamente,

2031
01:32:17,940 --> 01:32:21,460
que seus livros fizeram para o

2032
01:32:21,460 --> 01:32:24,980
história humana e como as ideias maiores subjacentes à história humana.

2033
01:32:25,060 --> 01:32:27,140
Então você escreveu biografias de indivíduos,

2034
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:29,740
que dificilmente são indivíduos.

2035
01:32:30,300 --> 01:32:32,260
É um quadro muito grande e complexo.

2036
01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:34,460
E biografias de

2037
01:32:35,820 --> 01:32:39,400
ideias que envolvem indivíduos.

2038
01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:43,200
Bem, o primeiro passo para mim é tentar descobrir como a mente funciona.

2039
01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:50,720
O que faz com que Einstein dê esse salto para Elon Musk dizer aço inoxidável

2040
01:32:50,720 --> 01:32:54,220
enquanto ele olha para um foguete de fibra de carbono?

2041
01:32:54,740 --> 01:32:54,920
Ou

2042
01:32:55,480 --> 01:32:57,020
como você dá o salto mental?

2043
01:32:57,600 --> 01:32:57,880
Porque

2044
01:32:58,360 --> 01:32:59,400
Escrevo sobre pessoas inteligentes,

2045
01:32:59,500 --> 01:33:01,000
mas pessoas inteligentes custam um centavo a dúzia.

2046
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:02,080
Eles geralmente não valem

2047
01:33:02,100 --> 01:33:02,500
muito.

2048
01:33:02,620 --> 01:33:03,520
Você tem que ser criativo,

2049
01:33:03,880 --> 01:33:04,740
imaginativo para pensar diferente,

2050
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:06,300
como diria Jobs.

2051
01:33:07,020 --> 01:33:08,480
E então o que torna as pessoas criativas?

2052
01:33:08,940 --> 01:33:10,940
O que os faz dar saltos imaginativos?

2053
01:33:11,500 --> 01:33:13,140
Essa é a questão chave

2054
01:33:13,140 --> 01:33:14,240
você tem que perguntar.

2055
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:16,720
Você também faz as perguntas como fez anteriormente,

2056
01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:18,400
que é o que demônios

2057
01:33:19,060 --> 01:33:22,160
estão vibrando em suas cabeças e como eles os aproveitam em unidades?

2058
01:33:22,940 --> 01:33:23,760
Então você olha para tudo

2059
01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:26,940
isso e você tenta observar com muito cuidado

2060
01:33:27,620 --> 01:33:28,400
a pessoa.

2061
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:33,900
Uma das coisas mais mundanas que faço é

2062
01:33:34,860 --> 01:33:36,080
muitos escritores

2063
01:33:36,860 --> 01:33:40,220
tente dar a você muitas das opiniões deles

2064
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,160
e pregar ou algo assim.

2065
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:48,500
Como eu disse, esse mentor disse que surgem dois tipos de pessoas, pregadores contadores de histórias.

2066
01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:50,620
Seja um contador de histórias.

2067
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:54,000
eu tento

2068
01:33:54,620 --> 01:33:57,820
sempre que estou tentando transmitir um pensamento,

2069
01:33:58,860 --> 01:34:02,040
há seis palavras mágicas que eu quase deveria ter

2070
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:03,640
escrito em um cartão

2071
01:34:04,480 --> 01:34:06,060
preso acima da minha mesa,

2072
01:34:06,440 --> 01:34:08,340
que é deixar-me contar uma história.

2073
01:34:09,260 --> 01:34:10,460
Então, se alguém disser

2074
01:34:11,220 --> 01:34:15,460
como Elon Musk descobre bons talentos

2075
01:34:16,700 --> 01:34:17,280
como você fez,

2076
01:34:18,140 --> 01:34:19,240
Eu acho, bem, deixe-me dizer a você

2077
01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:19,580
a história.

2078
01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:21,100
Vou contar a história de Jake McKenzie.

2079
01:34:22,540 --> 01:34:24,820
Ou isso não é algo que eu inventei.

2080
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:27,420
É aqui que o bom Senhor faz isso na Bíblia.

2081
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:29,180
Quero dizer, tem a melhor abertura

2082
01:34:29,820 --> 01:34:32,440
frase inicial de sempre, você sabe, no começo, vírgula,

2083
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:34,020
e então são histórias.

2084
01:34:34,940 --> 01:34:38,240
E em segundo lugar, para retomar a frase inicial do início,

2085
01:34:38,780 --> 01:34:40,060
torná-lo cronológico.

2086
01:34:41,180 --> 01:34:44,960
Todo mundo no 40º

2087
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:45,660
ano de sua vida

2088
01:34:46,380 --> 01:34:49,440
cresceu a partir do 39º ano e do 38º ano.

2089
01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:51,320
E então você quer

2090
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:53,700
mostrar como as pessoas evoluem e crescem.

2091
01:34:54,760 --> 01:34:57,060
Eu tive a maior de todas as narrativas de não-ficção

2092
01:34:57,080 --> 01:34:59,400
atitudes, Alice Mayhew e Simon Schuster,

2093
01:35:00,100 --> 01:35:03,200
que, entre outras coisas, criou todos os recursos do presidente

2094
01:35:03,200 --> 01:35:04,660
homens com Woodward e Bernstein.

2095
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:07,720
Mas ela tinha uma nota que colocou nas margens dos meus livros

2096
01:35:08,340 --> 01:35:09,380
isso foi um tique para,

2097
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:11,540
e isso significou todas as coisas em seu devido tempo.

2098
01:35:12,400 --> 01:35:14,160
Mantenha-o cronológico.

2099
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:15,620
Se for bom o suficiente para a Bíblia,

2100
01:35:15,660 --> 01:35:16,540
é bom o suficiente para você.

2101
01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:17,240
Interessante.

2102
01:35:17,280 --> 01:35:17,660
Para mim,

2103
01:35:17,960 --> 01:35:19,020
como se fosse uma pequena nota,

2104
01:35:19,580 --> 01:35:21,760
mas para você, é extremamente importante.

2105
01:35:22,020 --> 01:35:24,480
Porque é a estrutura de como você estrutura as coisas,

2106
01:35:24,480 --> 01:35:26,280
mas também como você entende as coisas,

2107
01:35:26,440 --> 01:35:30,800
ou seja, se você mantiver uma narrativa cronológica,

2108
01:35:31,620 --> 01:35:34,400
então você está mostrando como uma pessoa cresceu

2109
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:38,520
de uma experiência sobre a qual você falou para a próxima.

2110
01:35:39,340 --> 01:35:41,980
E esse crescimento moral,

2111
01:35:42,340 --> 01:35:42,620
criativo

2112
01:35:42,940 --> 01:35:44,260
crescimento, crescimento com assunção de riscos,

2113
01:35:45,340 --> 01:35:45,840
sabedoria,

2114
01:35:46,780 --> 01:35:49,660
essa é a essência da criatividade.

2115
01:35:50,020 --> 01:35:51,340
Mas você não pode fazer isso.

2116
01:35:52,120 --> 01:35:53,000
Há

2117
01:35:53,540 --> 01:35:59,780
um termo, Bildungsroman, que é um livro que carrega uma narrativa e conta

2118
01:35:59,820 --> 01:36:00,700
como as pessoas aprendem alguma coisa.

2119
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:03,240
Acredito muito na narrativa.

2120
01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:04,860
Se você é um acadêmico,

2121
01:36:06,740 --> 01:36:07,400
às vezes

2122
01:36:07,780 --> 01:36:10,880
não hoje, mas há 20 anos, 30 anos atrás,

2123
01:36:12,200 --> 01:36:13,860
havia duas coisas que você achava ruins.

2124
01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:14,340
Um foi

2125
01:36:15,460 --> 01:36:20,580
ter uma grande teoria da história na qual você decidiu fazer uma biografia.

2126
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:23,300
Tive um ótimo professor quando estava na faculdade.

2127
01:36:23,660 --> 01:36:24,780
O nome dela era Doris Kearns.

2128
01:36:25,820 --> 01:36:27,040
Mais tarde, ela se casou com Dick Goodwin.

2129
01:36:28,020 --> 01:36:28,700
E ela,

2130
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:31,780
quando ela estava indo para a universidade,

2131
01:36:32,780 --> 01:36:33,240
escreveu uma biografia

2132
01:36:34,280 --> 01:36:36,220
de Lyndon Johnson e do sonho americano.

2133
01:36:36,520 --> 01:36:39,120
E eles negaram seu mandato porque era

2134
01:36:39,120 --> 01:36:44,360
está abaixo da dignidade da academia escrever a história através de uma pessoa.

2135
01:36:45,820 --> 01:36:46,720
Isso é ótimo.

2136
01:36:47,000 --> 01:36:51,460
Abriu o campo da biografia para nós, não acadêmicos,

2137
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:54,480
começando com David McCullough,

2138
01:36:55,460 --> 01:36:56,200
Bob Caro,

2139
01:36:56,980 --> 01:37:00,980
mas talvez John Meacham e eu pertençamos a uma nova geração.

2140
01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:03,840
E certamente há uma geração vindo depois de nós.

2141
01:37:04,700 --> 01:37:07,500
Mas a segunda coisa, além de contá-la através das pessoas, que

2142
01:37:08,560 --> 01:37:16,120
a academia tendia a desdenhar o que chamavam de imposição de uma narrativa

2143
01:37:16,980 --> 01:37:18,440
e o que você fez para contar histórias.

2144
01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:23,800
Porque isso significava que você estava deixando as coisas de fora e transformando isso em uma narrativa.

2145
01:37:24,660 --> 01:37:24,960
Bem,

2146
01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:29,460
é assim que formamos nossa visão do mundo.

2147
01:37:30,660 --> 01:37:34,740
Bem, deixe-me fazer esta pergunta em termos de obtenção de entendimento.

2148
01:37:36,940 --> 01:37:43,000
Quanto disso é observado e quanto são entrevistas?

2149
01:37:44,760 --> 01:37:44,960
Sim.

2150
01:37:45,100 --> 01:37:47,220
Hum, e obviamente depende do assunto.

2151
01:37:47,520 --> 01:37:48,820
Quero dizer, com um Ben Franklin,

2152
01:37:48,820 --> 01:37:50,520
é tudo baseado em arquivos e tudo,

2153
01:37:51,180 --> 01:37:51,620
claro que temos

2154
01:37:52,440 --> 01:37:53,780
40 volumes de cartas.

2155
01:37:54,060 --> 01:37:57,120
Ele escreveu, eram bons velhos tempos, quando todos os dias você escrevia 20 cartas.

2156
01:37:58,040 --> 01:38:02,980
O livro obrigatório é baseado muito mais na observação do que quase qualquer um dos meus livros,

2157
01:38:03,060 --> 01:38:08,660
porque ele se abriu de uma forma que foi de tirar o fôlego para mim.

2158
01:38:09,100 --> 01:38:09,220
Sim.

2159
01:38:09,720 --> 01:38:11,580
Mesmo quando ele estaria sentado em branco

2160
01:38:12,740 --> 01:38:16,340
politopia ou fervura com outras pessoas,

2161
01:38:16,440 --> 01:38:18,620
você sabe, ele me deixou sentado ali observando.

2162
01:38:20,060 --> 01:38:22,640
Quer dizer, passei muito tempo com Jennifer ao seu lado.

2163
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:26,360
Fui ao laboratório dela e editei um gene humano e, você sabe,

2164
01:38:26,680 --> 01:38:27,980
com uma pipeta e um tubo de ensaio.

2165
01:38:28,520 --> 01:38:31,260
Mas eu diria que gastei

2166
01:38:31,900 --> 01:38:33,060
30 horas com ela.

2167
01:38:33,560 --> 01:38:38,520
Não consigo contar, você sabe, cem horas ou mais apenas observando a mesquita.

2168
01:38:39,180 --> 01:38:39,980
E eu não sou

2169
01:38:41,360 --> 01:38:44,580
certeza de que qualquer biógrafo,

2170
01:38:45,020 --> 01:38:46,980
talvez desde que Boswell enfrentou o Dr.

2171
01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:51,200
Johnson já teve tanto

2172
01:38:52,620 --> 01:38:53,260
de perto,

2173
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:57,720
o que significa que há um metro e meio de distância em todos os momentos.

2174
01:38:59,600 --> 01:39:00,920
E por causa disso,

2175
01:39:01,540 --> 01:39:03,100
Voltarei ao que disse há pouco.

2176
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:05,580
Tento sair do caminho da história.

2177
01:39:06,180 --> 01:39:06,900
Não é sobre mim.

2178
01:39:07,020 --> 01:39:09,140
Não se trata, tento apenas dizer, ok,

2179
01:39:10,320 --> 01:39:11,180
aqui está o que aconteceu.

2180
01:39:11,500 --> 01:39:12,280
Aqui está esta história.

2181
01:39:12,300 --> 01:39:12,900
Aqui está o que aconteceu.

2182
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:17,460
E então, na noite em que ele entrou no Twitter pela primeira vez e deixou você formar seu próprio julgamento.

2183
01:39:18,480 --> 01:39:19,380
E as entrevistas?

2184
01:39:20,460 --> 01:39:20,860
Você teve

2185
01:39:21,880 --> 01:39:23,180
muitas conversas.

2186
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:27,220
Você reconhece as pessoas com quem fez entrevistas.

2187
01:39:28,660 --> 01:39:29,920
Bem, um, eu tenho que perguntar

2188
01:39:31,000 --> 01:39:32,920
como aspirante a entrevistador,

2189
01:39:34,140 --> 01:39:34,990
como?

2190
01:39:36,340 --> 01:39:37,220
As pessoas adoram conversar.

2191
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:39,080
As pessoas simplesmente amam, você sabe disso.

2192
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:44,380
Já tive 140, talvez 150 pessoas, todas listadas no final.

2193
01:39:45,100 --> 01:39:46,320
Uma das pequenas coisas

2194
01:39:46,350 --> 01:39:47,880
que as pessoas não vão notar,

2195
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:48,900
mas vou dizer agora,

2196
01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:50,960
é que todos eles estão registrados.

2197
01:39:51,340 --> 01:39:52,880
Fazê-los falar é fácil.

2198
01:39:53,060 --> 01:39:54,480
Todos querem falar sobre mesquita.

2199
01:39:55,060 --> 01:39:56,400
Mas então, em certo ponto, diga:

2200
01:39:56,760 --> 01:39:58,880
Não coloco citações anônimas em meu livro.

2201
01:39:59,920 --> 01:40:00,940
Eu cito coisas.

2202
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:02,180
Eu digo,

2203
01:40:02,700 --> 01:40:03,520
se você for durão o suficiente

2204
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:05,420
e você já passou por isso,

2205
01:40:06,080 --> 01:40:08,700
e muitas vezes são necessárias duas ou três ligações de volta.

2206
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:11,120
Alguém vai me dizer, ah, não, não, não, eu não quero.

2207
01:40:11,660 --> 01:40:16,180
Mas acho importante saber de onde veio tudo.

2208
01:40:16,720 --> 01:40:17,600
E com mesquitas,

2209
01:40:18,280 --> 01:40:19,000
eu tive isso

2210
01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:21,480
desde o início porque eu estava

2211
01:40:21,480 --> 01:40:22,740
um repórter da revista Time.

2212
01:40:22,900 --> 01:40:25,660
Eu trabalhava como repórter do Times-Picayune sobre Nova Orleans.

2213
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:27,660
Primeiro dia de trabalho,

2214
01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:29,040
Eu tive que cobrir um assassinato.

2215
01:40:30,480 --> 01:40:33,320
Liguei para contar a história de um telefone público e meu editor,

2216
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:35,140
o editor da cidade disse:

2217
01:40:35,460 --> 01:40:36,880
bem, você conversou com a família?

2218
01:40:36,940 --> 01:40:37,600
Eu fui, não, Billy.

2219
01:40:37,700 --> 01:40:38,740
Quero dizer, a família,

2220
01:40:39,060 --> 01:40:40,160
a filha acabou de receber,

2221
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:41,940
ele disse, vá bater na porta.

2222
01:40:42,100 --> 01:40:43,100
Bati na porta.

2223
01:40:43,900 --> 01:40:45,500
Uma hora depois, eles ainda estavam conversando.

2224
01:40:45,560 --> 01:40:47,000
Eles estavam trazendo seu anuário.

2225
01:40:48,160 --> 01:40:49,000
Lição um que aprendi,

2226
01:40:49,280 --> 01:40:52,340
as pessoas querem falar se você estiver disposto a apenas ouvir.

2227
01:40:53,940 --> 01:40:55,700
E quer seja Henry Kissinger,

2228
01:40:55,820 --> 01:40:57,640
basta apertar o botão e dizer Kissinger,

2229
01:40:57,680 --> 01:40:59,000
e as pessoas contam as histórias.

2230
01:40:59,460 --> 01:41:00,860
Até Elon Musk,

2231
01:41:02,120 --> 01:41:02,840
todo mundo falou.

2232
01:41:03,060 --> 01:41:03,960
Todos em sua família,

2233
01:41:04,200 --> 01:41:05,880
todo mundo que ele demitiu, todo mundo.

2234
01:41:06,020 --> 01:41:06,320
Quero dizer,

2235
01:41:07,160 --> 01:41:08,860
Acho que é importante ouvir as pessoas.

2236
01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:11,340
E outra coisa que aprendi como repórter,

2237
01:41:11,540 --> 01:41:13,560
quando eu estava cobrindo política em New Hampshire

2238
01:41:13,760 --> 01:41:14,980
e as primeiras campanhas,

2239
01:41:16,000 --> 01:41:16,900
Eu aprendi com

2240
01:41:17,420 --> 01:41:20,480
dois ou três grandes repórteres, um cara chamado David Broder e Tim Russert,

2241
01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:22,060
o falecido cara da NBC.

2242
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:24,320
Eles fazem o que foi chamado de bater na porta.

2243
01:41:24,480 --> 01:41:25,560
Você simplesmente anda por um bairro,

2244
01:41:25,660 --> 01:41:26,580
bater em uma porta

2245
01:41:26,700 --> 01:41:28,340
e pergunte às pessoas sobre a eleição.

2246
01:41:29,100 --> 01:41:30,420
Mas eles disseram, aqui está o segredo.

2247
01:41:31,660 --> 01:41:33,260
Não faça perguntas indutoras.

2248
01:41:33,500 --> 01:41:34,620
Não tenha nenhuma premissa.

2249
01:41:35,060 --> 01:41:37,800
Basta dizer, ei, estou tentando entender esta eleição.

2250
01:41:37,980 --> 01:41:38,720
O que está acontecendo?

2251
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:40,480
O que você acha?

2252
01:41:41,020 --> 01:41:42,000
E então fique em silêncio.

2253
01:41:42,660 --> 01:41:43,080
Com almíscar,

2254
01:41:43,460 --> 01:41:43,920
um terceiro segredo,

2255
01:41:44,640 --> 01:41:45,520
você sabe disso muito bem.

2256
01:41:46,660 --> 01:41:48,420
Ele ficará em silêncio às vezes.

2257
01:41:49,180 --> 01:41:49,660
Às vezes

2258
01:41:50,320 --> 01:41:51,700
um minuto, dois minutos, quatro minutos.

2259
01:41:52,300 --> 01:41:53,640
Não tente preencher os silêncios.

2260
01:41:54,440 --> 01:41:55,360
Se você é um ouvinte,

2261
01:41:56,380 --> 01:41:57,480
você tem que aprender,

2262
01:41:58,560 --> 01:41:58,940
OK,

2263
01:41:59,500 --> 01:42:01,040
ele não diz nada por quatro minutos.

2264
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:02,760
Eu posso sobreviver a ele.

2265
01:42:03,040 --> 01:42:03,500
É duro.

2266
01:42:03,920 --> 01:42:04,780
Como humanos, é muito difícil.

2267
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:07,060
Respeitar o silêncio é muito, muito difícil.

2268
01:42:09,180 --> 01:42:10,080
Falando em demônios,

2269
01:42:11,020 --> 01:42:13,240
quando há silêncio, todos os demônios aparecem na minha cabeça.

2270
01:42:13,820 --> 01:42:17,320
O medo, eu acho, é que se eu não disser nada,

2271
01:42:17,880 --> 01:42:18,540
é aborrecido.

2272
01:42:18,620 --> 01:42:19,420
E se eu disser alguma coisa,

2273
01:42:19,440 --> 01:42:20,200
vai ser estúpido.

2274
01:42:21,100 --> 01:42:23,420
E esse é o motor básico que continua funcionando.

2275
01:42:23,540 --> 01:42:24,620
Não no podcast,

2276
01:42:24,760 --> 01:42:27,380
no podcast, mas também na interação humana.

2277
01:42:28,020 --> 01:42:30,140
E então eu acho que há aquela energia nervosa

2278
01:42:30,140 --> 01:42:31,260
ao interagir com as pessoas.

2279
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:33,260
Você nunca pode dar errado

2280
01:42:33,980 --> 01:42:35,020
ficando em silêncio

2281
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:37,880
se não há nada que você tenha a dizer.

2282
01:42:38,540 --> 01:42:39,900
Não é algo que eu dominei,

2283
01:42:40,880 --> 01:42:43,100
mas eu faço, quando sou repórter,

2284
01:42:43,140 --> 01:42:44,880
tente dominar isso, que é

2285
01:42:46,580 --> 01:42:50,400
não faça perguntas complexas.

2286
01:42:51,260 --> 01:42:53,480
Não intervenha.

2287
01:42:54,300 --> 01:42:56,360
E quando alguém não respondeu totalmente à pergunta,

2288
01:42:56,800 --> 01:42:57,960
não diga, bem, deixe-me,

2289
01:42:58,380 --> 01:42:59,740
você sabe, apenas fique em silêncio

2290
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:01,600
e então eles continuarão conversando.

2291
01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:03,860
Apenas dê a eles a chance de continuar conversando.

2292
01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:05,440
Mesmo que eles já tenham terminado,

2293
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:06,140
ainda.

2294
01:43:06,700 --> 01:43:08,140
Às vezes eles não lhe deram o suficiente.

2295
01:43:08,440 --> 01:43:09,760
Em vez de acompanhar,

2296
01:43:09,900 --> 01:43:12,140
Vou apenas acenar com a cabeça e

2297
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:12,980
mantenha-se afastado.

2298
01:43:13,400 --> 01:43:14,460
Você está fazendo com que pareça simples.

2299
01:43:14,760 --> 01:43:15,220
Existe

2300
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:17,700
um segredo para fazer com que as pessoas se abram mais?

2301
01:43:18,180 --> 01:43:19,420
Eu tenho um pouco de sorte

2302
01:43:20,060 --> 01:43:22,120
porque, você sabe, comecei trabalhando para

2303
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:24,000
um jornal diário

2304
01:43:25,040 --> 01:43:26,620
e as pessoas naquela época,

2305
01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:29,780
eles querem falar com o repórter do jornal.

2306
01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:31,640
Mas você também tem um jeito.

2307
01:43:31,820 --> 01:43:32,900
Tipo, eu sinto que você tem

2308
01:43:33,580 --> 01:43:35,300
como um cowboy em um saloon.

2309
01:43:35,320 --> 01:43:36,580
Como se você só quisesse conversar.

2310
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:37,840
Como se houvesse um empate.

2311
01:43:37,960 --> 01:43:38,460
Não sei.

2312
01:43:39,540 --> 01:43:40,700
Eu não sei o que é.

2313
01:43:40,840 --> 01:43:42,540
Talvez seja, não sei se é desenvolvedor,

2314
01:43:42,580 --> 01:43:43,300
você nasceu com isso,

2315
01:43:43,300 --> 01:43:46,020
mas há uma sensação de que quero contar algum tipo de história.

2316
01:43:46,260 --> 01:43:47,660
Bom, conte-me uma história.

2317
01:43:47,980 --> 01:43:50,180
Algumas coisas.

2318
01:43:51,280 --> 01:43:51,900
eu aprendi

2319
01:43:53,260 --> 01:43:54,100
para ficar mais quieto.

2320
01:43:54,840 --> 01:43:57,020
Tenho certeza que sei quando eu estava

2321
01:43:57,560 --> 01:43:58,560
mais jovem ou até

2322
01:43:59,380 --> 01:44:02,640
Verei vídeos meus em, você sabe,

2323
01:44:04,080 --> 01:44:07,100
notícias onde estou sempre tentando fazer uma pergunta.

2324
01:44:07,740 --> 01:44:11,820
E assim você aprende a ficar mais quieto às vezes.

2325
01:44:12,120 --> 01:44:13,240
Eu não dominei isso.

2326
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:14,340
Eu não aprendi o suficiente.

2327
01:44:16,340 --> 01:44:18,380
Você aprende a ser naturalmente curioso.

2328
01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:22,120
Muitos repórteres hoje, quando fazem uma pergunta

2329
01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:24,640
ou eles estão tentando brincar com você ou tentando

2330
01:44:24,660 --> 01:44:25,420
para receber uma notícia

2331
01:44:25,940 --> 01:44:27,120
colher ou tentar,

2332
01:44:28,620 --> 01:44:30,540
você sabe, faça algo que possa fazer

2333
01:44:31,120 --> 01:44:31,780
uma pista.

2334
01:44:33,080 --> 01:44:33,760
E

2335
01:44:34,660 --> 01:44:36,080
se você realmente

2336
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:37,720
estão curiosos

2337
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:40,900
e você realmente quer saber a resposta para uma pergunta,

2338
01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:46,120
então as pessoas perceberão que você perguntou porque quer a resposta,

2339
01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:48,540
não porque você está jogando com eles.

2340
01:44:50,040 --> 01:44:52,140
Tenho certeza de que alguns deles não estão registrados,

2341
01:44:52,260 --> 01:44:53,420
alguns deles registrados, você tinha

2342
01:44:54,620 --> 01:44:55,300
talvez,

2343
01:44:55,760 --> 01:44:56,020
você sabe,

2344
01:44:57,460 --> 01:44:59,200
apenas algumas conversas incríveis.

2345
01:44:59,560 --> 01:45:01,220
Eu ia dizer algumas das melhores conversas

2346
01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:02,160
sempre, mas quem sabe?

2347
01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:06,040
Algumas das melhores conversas de todos os tempos provavelmente estão em algum lugar da América do Sul

2348
01:45:06,040 --> 01:45:08,660
entre duas pessoas bêbadas que nunca ouvimos.

2349
01:45:08,900 --> 01:45:10,000
Então eu não, eu não sei.

2350
01:45:10,300 --> 01:45:11,260
Mas é

2351
01:45:12,260 --> 01:45:13,760
existe um dispositivo que você pode dar

2352
01:45:14,780 --> 01:45:18,960
do que você aprendeu com alguém como eu e como ter uma boa conversa,

2353
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:20,820
especialmente depois de gravado?

2354
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:23,420
Bem, para ser realmente curioso.

2355
01:45:23,940 --> 01:45:27,260
Quero dizer, todas as perguntas que você me fez é porque acho que você realmente quer saber

2356
01:45:27,260 --> 01:45:29,500
a resposta e você fez sua lição de casa

2357
01:45:30,420 --> 01:45:33,300
ser aberto e não ter uma agenda.

2358
01:45:34,180 --> 01:45:35,660
Quero dizer, todos nós

2359
01:45:36,540 --> 01:45:39,980
sofrem com o facto de existirem demasiadas agendas no mundo de hoje.

2360
01:45:41,220 --> 01:45:41,500
Sim.

2361
01:45:41,500 --> 01:45:42,980
Então isso é apenas curiosidade genuína,

2362
01:45:43,200 --> 01:45:46,120
mas, hum, há algo quando você fala

2363
01:45:46,140 --> 01:45:47,480
sobre apenas interação individual,

2364
01:45:49,260 --> 01:45:50,820
seja Elon ou Steve Jobs ou

2365
01:45:52,140 --> 01:45:53,180
há alguma coisa

2366
01:45:54,500 --> 01:45:56,580
lindo na mente daquela pessoa.

2367
01:45:57,280 --> 01:45:58,280
E parece

2368
01:45:59,560 --> 01:46:00,520
é possível

2369
01:46:01,240 --> 01:46:02,220
para revelar isso,

2370
01:46:03,500 --> 01:46:04,980
descobrir isso juntos

2371
01:46:06,420 --> 01:46:07,280
eficientemente.

2372
01:46:08,700 --> 01:46:10,660
E esse é o objetivo de uma conversa.

2373
01:46:11,160 --> 01:46:12,120
Bem, quero dizer, olhe,

2374
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:17,140
você está entre os melhores podcasters e entrevistadores

2375
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:18,780
no mundo hoje.

2376
01:46:19,720 --> 01:46:21,620
Você tem uma seriedade com você.

2377
01:46:23,340 --> 01:46:26,320
Hum, Ben Franklin é a pessoa que me ensinou,

2378
01:46:27,000 --> 01:46:27,600
Quero dizer,

2379
01:46:28,040 --> 01:46:28,680
lendo ele

2380
01:46:29,260 --> 01:46:31,360
o mais sobre conversa.

2381
01:46:31,520 --> 01:46:33,400
Ele escreveu um ensaio maravilhoso sobre isso.

2382
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:35,200
Inclui o silêncio.

2383
01:46:36,700 --> 01:46:36,840
Uh,

2384
01:46:37,940 --> 01:46:39,540
mas inclui

2385
01:46:41,460 --> 01:46:45,520
tentando fazer perguntas sinceras em vez de

2386
01:46:46,880 --> 01:46:47,780
obter um ponto de vista.

2387
01:46:48,800 --> 01:46:49,300
Quero dizer,

2388
01:46:50,180 --> 01:46:56,640
é um tanto socrático, mas sempre que ele se perguntava,

2389
01:46:57,360 --> 01:47:00,900
Eu queria começar um núcleo de bombeiros na Filadélfia.

2390
01:47:02,680 --> 01:47:05,800
Ele iria para o grupo que chamava de clube do avental de couro

2391
01:47:06,560 --> 01:47:07,680
e eles fariam uma pergunta.

2392
01:47:08,080 --> 01:47:09,220
Por que não temos isso?

2393
01:47:10,020 --> 01:47:11,060
O que seria necessário?

2394
01:47:11,200 --> 01:47:11,940
O que seria bom?

2395
01:47:12,400 --> 01:47:15,220
E a segunda parte é garantir que você ouça.

2396
01:47:15,740 --> 01:47:17,760
E se alguém acabou de

2397
01:47:17,780 --> 01:47:19,040
o germe de uma ideia,

2398
01:47:20,040 --> 01:47:21,340
dê-lhes crédito por isso.

2399
01:47:21,440 --> 01:47:21,580
Como

2400
01:47:22,260 --> 01:47:23,240
como Joe disse,

2401
01:47:23,780 --> 01:47:26,080
você sabe, o verdadeiro problema é este,

2402
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:31,960
e eu acho que

2403
01:47:33,060 --> 01:47:37,420
se estou em situações e quero dizer apenas um jantar ou algo assim,

2404
01:47:37,900 --> 01:47:38,420
Estou com alguém,

2405
01:47:39,940 --> 01:47:42,280
Geralmente sou curioso e vou,

2406
01:47:42,860 --> 01:47:44,300
a conversa continuará,

2407
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:46,540
você sabe, com, com perguntas.

2408
01:47:46,740 --> 01:47:49,580
E eu acho que é também porque

2409
01:47:49,580 --> 01:47:52,660
Estou muito interessado no que alguém está fazendo,

2410
01:47:52,860 --> 01:47:53,960
com quem eu esteja.

2411
01:47:55,820 --> 01:47:56,820
E isso é

2412
01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:01,680
um talento que você tem, que é bastante genuíno em seus interesses.

2413
01:48:02,860 --> 01:48:03,480
Há pessoas

2414
01:48:04,500 --> 01:48:05,660
como Benjamim Franklin,

2415
01:48:06,180 --> 01:48:06,500
como o,

2416
01:48:07,340 --> 01:48:08,440
Eu direi Charlie Rose,

2417
01:48:08,460 --> 01:48:09,900
mesmo que ele esteja em desfavor,

2418
01:48:10,380 --> 01:48:12,740
que estão interessados em um grande número de assuntos.

2419
01:48:12,740 --> 01:48:14,280
E acho que isso também ajuda

2420
01:48:14,680 --> 01:48:19,640
estar interessado em basquete e ópera e física e metafísica.

2421
01:48:21,140 --> 01:48:21,760
Uh, isso era um Ben

2422
01:48:21,780 --> 01:48:23,620
Franklin, isso foi um truque de Leonardo,

2423
01:48:24,060 --> 01:48:24,300
qual é

2424
01:48:25,160 --> 01:48:26,740
eles queriam saber tudo o que você pudesse

2425
01:48:26,740 --> 01:48:28,240
possivelmente saber sobre todos os assuntos cognoscíveis.

2426
01:48:30,220 --> 01:48:32,240
Mas há um aspecto diferente nisso,

2427
01:48:32,540 --> 01:48:33,400
o que é, hum,

2428
01:48:34,200 --> 01:48:36,000
que eu adoraria ouvir

2429
01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:38,260
como você resolveu ou se enfrentou,

2430
01:48:38,720 --> 01:48:39,860
que você certamente está desarmando.

2431
01:48:41,860 --> 01:48:41,900
Uh,

2432
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:44,500
veja, estou tipo, uh, enchendo você de elogios aqui,

2433
01:48:44,540 --> 01:48:45,300
tentando pegar você.

2434
01:48:45,440 --> 01:48:46,500
Esse é um método muito desarmante.

2435
01:48:46,660 --> 01:48:47,040
Sim.

2436
01:48:47,400 --> 01:48:49,260
Conversei recentemente com Benjamin e Yahoo.

2437
01:48:49,480 --> 01:48:50,480
Nós vamos conversar novamente.

2438
01:48:50,700 --> 01:48:54,140
Infelizmente, causamos um agendamento e complexidades que só tiveram uma hora,

2439
01:48:54,200 --> 01:48:55,620
o que é muito difícil,

2440
01:48:55,920 --> 01:48:56,900
muito difícil

2441
01:48:57,340 --> 01:48:58,720
com o político carismático.

2442
01:48:59,660 --> 01:49:00,460
Eu entendo isso,

2443
01:49:00,780 --> 01:49:03,240
mas ele também é um falador carismático,

2444
01:49:03,240 --> 01:49:05,500
o que é muito difícil de romper em uma hora.

2445
01:49:07,060 --> 01:49:08,080
Hum, mas há pessoas que têm

2446
01:49:09,040 --> 01:49:09,840
construíram muros,

2447
01:49:10,220 --> 01:49:12,380
seja por causa de demônios ou por causa de,

2448
01:49:12,380 --> 01:49:13,320
uh, seus políticos.

2449
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:15,100
E então eles têm agendas e

2450
01:49:15,100 --> 01:49:15,980
narrativas e assim por diante.

2451
01:49:16,080 --> 01:49:17,900
E então, para romper com isso,

2452
01:49:18,620 --> 01:49:20,660
hum, eu me pergunto se há algum conselho, algum

2453
01:49:21,040 --> 01:49:23,940
sabedoria que você aprendeu sobre como, uh,

2454
01:49:24,760 --> 01:49:27,280
meio que desgastado pela água ou algo assim,

2455
01:49:28,900 --> 01:49:29,920
ou qualquer método,

2456
01:49:30,340 --> 01:49:32,300
os muros que construímos como indivíduos.

2457
01:49:33,220 --> 01:49:34,500
Quero dizer, você chama isso de desarmamento,

2458
01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:36,580
que eu não sei que sou,

2459
01:49:36,700 --> 01:49:38,380
mas desarmar basicamente significa

2460
01:49:38,380 --> 01:49:40,600
você também está derrubando os escudos deles.

2461
01:49:41,500 --> 01:49:43,600
E você sabe, quando as pessoas têm um escudo

2462
01:49:45,060 --> 01:49:47,860
e você tenta dar-lhes conforto,

2463
01:49:48,520 --> 01:49:51,120
Não tive nenhum desses problemas com Elon Musk.

2464
01:49:51,780 --> 01:49:52,400
Quero dizer, foi

2465
01:49:53,180 --> 01:49:54,160
como desarmar para mim,

2466
01:49:54,560 --> 01:49:54,820
qual é

2467
01:49:55,420 --> 01:49:56,640
Fiquei esperando para dizer:

2468
01:49:56,720 --> 01:49:57,580
ok, ele não vai,

2469
01:49:57,700 --> 01:49:59,440
ele tem uma concha ou não fará isso.

2470
01:50:00,100 --> 01:50:00,620
Mas

2471
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:01,700
ele era,

2472
01:50:02,700 --> 01:50:04,040
hum,

2473
01:50:04,600 --> 01:50:05,100
quase

2474
01:50:05,760 --> 01:50:09,280
loucamente aberto

2475
01:50:10,360 --> 01:50:14,400
e não parecia, uh,

2476
01:50:14,900 --> 01:50:18,080
quero ficar girando, escondendo ou fingindo coisas.

2477
01:50:18,980 --> 01:50:20,240
Hum,

2478
01:50:21,240 --> 01:50:22,300
e tive sorte.

2479
01:50:23,280 --> 01:50:24,360
Doudna era assim.

2480
01:50:25,100 --> 01:50:27,160
Steve Jobs era assim,

2481
01:50:27,780 --> 01:50:29,260
que você também precisa dedicar tempo.

2482
01:50:29,480 --> 01:50:30,200
Em outras palavras, hum,

2483
01:50:31,220 --> 01:50:36,140
você não pode dizer, ok, há uma entrevista de uma hora e vou derrubar todas as paredes.

2484
01:50:36,400 --> 01:50:37,800
É como na sua quinta visita.

2485
01:50:39,620 --> 01:50:41,660
Uma das coisas na minha situação, você aprende

2486
01:50:43,320 --> 01:50:44,500
quinta visita é muito legal,

2487
01:50:44,620 --> 01:50:45,980
mas às vezes você não recebe uma quinta visita.

2488
01:50:46,400 --> 01:50:47,540
Às vezes é apenas o primeiro encontro.

2489
01:50:48,420 --> 01:50:48,880
E, hum,

2490
01:50:49,480 --> 01:50:51,200
Eu acho que no que tudo se resume,

2491
01:50:51,280 --> 01:50:52,560
e dissemos desarmar,

2492
01:50:52,840 --> 01:50:56,640
mas há algo sobre essa pessoa que

2493
01:50:57,320 --> 01:50:57,840
você confia.

2494
01:50:58,740 --> 01:51:00,400
Eu acho que muito disso se resume à confiança

2495
01:51:01,120 --> 01:51:02,540
de alguma forma profundamente humana.

2496
01:51:03,200 --> 01:51:03,640
E eu penso,

2497
01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:07,260
uh, com, com, uh, com muitas das pessoas com quem conversei,

2498
01:51:07,700 --> 01:51:10,060
às vezes a confiança acontece como depois da entrevista,

2499
01:51:10,580 --> 01:51:11,800
o que é muito triste porque

2500
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:12,980
é tipo, cara,

2501
01:51:13,340 --> 01:51:16,320
Nunca estive na sua situação de ter um show.

2502
01:51:17,100 --> 01:51:17,760
Eu geralmente tenho.

2503
01:51:19,340 --> 01:51:19,660
Segundo,

2504
01:51:19,960 --> 01:51:23,720
Eu não sou uma pessoa de primeiro encontro.

2505
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:24,200
Sim.

2506
01:51:24,200 --> 01:51:24,420
Sim.

2507
01:51:24,420 --> 01:51:24,660
Sim.

2508
01:51:24,720 --> 01:51:24,880
Bem,

2509
01:51:25,240 --> 01:51:26,520
você sabe, mas então eu tenho sorte.

2510
01:51:26,680 --> 01:51:28,980
Quer dizer, estou dentro, digo com sorte, mas estou impresso,

2511
01:51:29,560 --> 01:51:29,960
você sabe,

2512
01:51:30,520 --> 01:51:33,960
a impressão é um meio de alguns milhares de anos,

2513
01:51:34,100 --> 01:51:35,320
mas há aqueles de nós que amam isso.

2514
01:51:35,960 --> 01:51:39,840
Bem, a natureza do podcast é que eu sou um deles,

2515
01:51:39,840 --> 01:51:40,940
tipo de garota de uma noite.

2516
01:51:41,990 --> 01:51:42,740
Uh,

2517
01:51:43,240 --> 01:51:44,600
deixe-me perguntar sobre objetividade.

2518
01:51:44,600 --> 01:51:46,880
Você seguiu Elon e segue Steve.

2519
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:47,620
Como você é,

2520
01:51:48,460 --> 01:51:50,240
Quer dizer, eu nem sei se você diria que seu amigo,

2521
01:51:50,840 --> 01:51:52,420
você tem que ter cuidado com palavras como essa,

2522
01:51:52,420 --> 01:51:53,680
mas você está, há uma intimidade.

2523
01:51:54,040 --> 01:51:58,820
Hum, e como você permanece objetivo?

2524
01:52:00,100 --> 01:52:03,780
Você quer permanecer objetivo enquanto conta uma história profundamente humana?

2525
01:52:03,900 --> 01:52:04,260
Sim.

2526
01:52:04,480 --> 01:52:06,120
Quero dizer, quero ser honesto,

2527
01:52:06,600 --> 01:52:09,540
o que eu acho que é semelhante a ser objetivo.

2528
01:52:11,100 --> 01:52:12,800
Uh, eu tento manter em mente

2529
01:52:14,250 --> 01:52:16,020
quem é, para quem estou escrevendo?

2530
01:52:16,700 --> 01:52:18,140
Não estou escrevendo para Elon Musk.

2531
01:52:18,640 --> 01:52:19,220
Como eu disse,

2532
01:52:19,860 --> 01:52:20,880
Eu não enviei o livro para ele.

2533
01:52:21,260 --> 01:52:22,140
Eu não sei se ele,

2534
01:52:22,400 --> 01:52:23,940
Acho que ele ainda não leu.

2535
01:52:24,140 --> 01:52:25,480
Hum,

2536
01:52:26,380 --> 01:52:27,620
Eu tenho uma pessoa para quem estou escrevendo

2537
01:52:27,840 --> 01:52:30,480
o leitor de mente aberta.

2538
01:52:31,400 --> 01:52:32,300
E

2539
01:52:33,600 --> 01:52:35,360
se eu puder colocar

2540
01:52:35,980 --> 01:52:37,600
uma história e dizer, bem, isso vai

2541
01:52:38,360 --> 01:52:41,940
irritar o assunto ou que realmente o deixará feliz.

2542
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:44,100
Isso é irrelevante.

2543
01:52:44,300 --> 01:52:45,320
Ou eu tento fazer

2544
01:52:45,320 --> 01:52:47,000
que uma consideração menor.

2545
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:49,500
É a vontade do leitor

2546
01:52:51,240 --> 01:52:53,500
ter uma melhor compreensão porque

2547
01:52:53,520 --> 01:52:55,200
Coloquei essa história no livro.

2548
01:52:57,520 --> 01:52:58,520
Sou um pouco romântico.

2549
01:53:00,560 --> 01:53:04,640
Então, para mim, até o seu livro de Einstein teve lições

2550
01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:07,280
sobre romance e relacionamentos.

2551
01:53:07,460 --> 01:53:08,000
Oh céus.

2552
01:53:09,260 --> 01:53:13,680
Então, quão importantes são os relacionamentos românticos para o sucesso de grandes homens, grandes mulheres,

2553
01:53:14,040 --> 01:53:14,480
grandes mentes?

2554
01:53:16,060 --> 01:53:20,400
Bem, às vezes as pessoas que afetam o curso da humanidade

2555
01:53:21,180 --> 01:53:22,500
ter melhores relacionamentos com

2556
01:53:22,580 --> 01:53:26,140
humanidade do que com os humanos sentados ao seu redor.

2557
01:53:26,480 --> 01:53:28,800
Einstein tinha

2558
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:31,940
dois relacionamentos interessantes

2559
01:53:32,380 --> 01:53:32,840
com esposas.

2560
01:53:33,500 --> 01:53:35,440
Sua, você sabe, Maleva, sua primeira esposa foi

2561
01:53:35,980 --> 01:53:37,600
uma caixa de ressonância e ajudar com o

2562
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:40,800
matemática do artigo sobre relatividade especial em particular.

2563
01:53:41,680 --> 01:53:42,260
Hum,

2564
01:53:42,820 --> 01:53:44,200
mas ele não a tratou

2565
01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:44,520
bem.

2566
01:53:44,800 --> 01:53:45,300
Quero dizer, ele,

2567
01:53:46,040 --> 01:53:50,400
uh, fiz ela assinar uma carta dizendo que ela não iria interrompê-lo.

2568
01:53:50,440 --> 01:53:53,940
Ela não quis, você sabe, e finalmente quando ela quis o divórcio,

2569
01:53:53,940 --> 01:53:54,800
ele não tinha dinheiro para isso

2570
01:53:55,460 --> 01:53:56,500
porque ele ainda era um funcionário de patentes.

2571
01:53:58,180 --> 01:54:00,460
E então, uh, ele ofereceu a ela um acordo,

2572
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:02,820
o que eu acho totalmente incrível.

2573
01:54:03,360 --> 01:54:03,760
Ele disse,

2574
01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:04,800
um destes dias,

2575
01:54:04,900 --> 01:54:06,360
um desses papéis de 1905

2576
01:54:07,100 --> 01:54:08,400
vai ganhar o prêmio Nobel.

2577
01:54:09,740 --> 01:54:09,920
Se

2578
01:54:10,500 --> 01:54:11,540
nos divorciamos,

2579
01:54:12,380 --> 01:54:14,100
uh, você sabe, eu vou te dar o dinheiro.

2580
01:54:15,300 --> 01:54:16,100
Hum,

2581
01:54:16,460 --> 01:54:17,120
isso era muito dinheiro

2582
01:54:17,260 --> 01:54:19,280
naquela época, como um milhão de dólares agora ou algo assim.

2583
01:54:20,200 --> 01:54:21,220
E ela é inteligente.

2584
01:54:21,300 --> 01:54:22,140
Ela é uma cientista.

2585
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:24,100
Ela consulta alguns outros cientistas.

2586
01:54:24,100 --> 01:54:26,340
E depois de uma semana ou mais ela aceita a aposta.

2587
01:54:27,240 --> 01:54:28,540
Isso é até o que,

2588
01:54:28,850 --> 01:54:30,920
1919 que ele ganha o prêmio Nobel?

2589
01:54:32,880 --> 01:54:33,640
Ah, e

2590
01:54:34,500 --> 01:54:35,400
ela fica com todo o dinheiro.

2591
01:54:35,440 --> 01:54:37,360
Ela compra três prédios de apartamentos em Zurique.

2592
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:40,480
Uh, com sua segunda esposa, Elsa,

2593
01:54:41,240 --> 01:54:44,360
foi mais uma parceria de conveniência.

2594
01:54:44,820 --> 01:54:45,660
Não era

2595
01:54:46,400 --> 01:54:47,500
um amor romântico,

2596
01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:52,820
mas ele sabia, e às vezes é disso que as pessoas precisam na vida é apenas de um parceiro.

2597
01:54:53,500 --> 01:54:56,180
Quero dizer, alguém que vai lidar com as coisas que você não vai lidar.

2598
01:54:56,880 --> 01:54:59,380
Então eu acho que se você olhar meus livros,

2599
01:55:00,980 --> 01:55:05,460
eles não são grandes guias inspiradores para relacionamentos pessoais.

2600
01:55:06,620 --> 01:55:09,380
Deixe-me perguntar sobre o próprio processo de escrita.

2601
01:55:10,260 --> 01:55:12,260
Quando você observou, quando você ouviu,

2602
01:55:13,000 --> 01:55:14,540
quando você coletar todas as informações,

2603
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:18,040
o que é, uh, talvez até mesmo o mundano bobo

2604
01:55:18,040 --> 01:55:22,640
questão de, uh, o que você come no café da manhã antes de começar a escrever?

2605
01:55:22,840 --> 01:55:23,520
Quando você escreve?

2606
01:55:23,820 --> 01:55:24,260
Em primeiro lugar,

2607
01:55:24,560 --> 01:55:26,380
o café da manhã não é minha refeição favorita.

2608
01:55:26,680 --> 01:55:28,760
E aquelas pessoas que dizem que você

2609
01:55:28,760 --> 01:55:30,200
tem que começar com um farto café da manhã,

2610
01:55:31,260 --> 01:55:32,580
Eu olho de soslaio.

2611
01:55:32,860 --> 01:55:33,300
Sim.

2612
01:55:33,460 --> 01:55:35,320
Uh, e manhã não é minha favorita

2613
01:55:35,440 --> 01:55:35,920
parte do dia.

2614
01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:38,620
Então eu escrevo à noite e

2615
01:55:39,140 --> 01:55:41,460
porque adoro narrativa,

2616
01:55:42,100 --> 01:55:43,800
é fácil estruturar um livro,

2617
01:55:44,120 --> 01:55:49,920
que é que posso fazer um esboço que se eu imprimisse ou notas seriam

2618
01:55:50,840 --> 01:55:51,840
cem páginas,

2619
01:55:52,420 --> 01:55:53,760
mas está tudo em ordem.

2620
01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:55,020
Em outras palavras,

2621
01:55:56,960 --> 01:56:00,100
se servirmos, se houver um homem em chamas

2622
01:56:00,100 --> 01:56:03,280
e ele está voltando de Grimes e depois há uma coisa de telhado solar,

2623
01:56:03,280 --> 01:56:04,400
e então há algo,

2624
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:07,240
Eu coloquei tudo em ordem

2625
01:56:07,820 --> 01:56:08,720
dia a dia

2626
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:10,720
como um esboço.

2627
01:56:11,020 --> 01:56:12,360
E isso me disciplina quando

2628
01:56:12,360 --> 01:56:18,240
Estou começando a escrever seguindo o mantra de Alice Mayhew, minha primeira editora,

2629
01:56:18,760 --> 01:56:20,380
que é tudo em seu devido tempo.

2630
01:56:20,420 --> 01:56:21,520
Não se antecipe à história.

2631
01:56:21,560 --> 01:56:23,040
Não precisa flashback.

2632
01:56:24,380 --> 01:56:26,080
Hum, e depois que você conseguir

2633
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:28,360
para que tudo seja cronológico,

2634
01:56:28,380 --> 01:56:30,560
você sabe, coisas, então você tem que fazer alguns agrupamentos.

2635
01:56:31,120 --> 01:56:32,060
Você sabe, você tem que dizer,

2636
01:56:32,140 --> 01:56:35,320
ok, vamos fazer o

2637
01:56:35,320 --> 01:56:40,600
decisão de fazer Starship ou construir uma fábrica no Texas ou qualquer outra coisa.

2638
01:56:41,100 --> 01:56:45,020
E então você às vezes tem o problema organizacional de,

2639
01:56:45,320 --> 01:56:46,420
sim, e isso leva todos nós

2640
01:56:46,420 --> 01:56:47,460
o caminho até aqui.

2641
01:56:48,140 --> 01:56:49,260
Eu mantenho isso nisso,

2642
01:56:49,260 --> 01:56:52,460
esse capítulo ou devo esperar até

2643
01:56:52,680 --> 01:56:55,080
mais tarde, quando estiver melhor cronologicamente?

2644
01:56:55,660 --> 01:56:56,440
Mas isso é fácil.

2645
01:56:57,080 --> 01:56:59,200
Bem, e quanto ao real

2646
01:56:59,880 --> 01:57:00,700
processo de

2647
01:57:01,260 --> 01:57:02,140
contando a história?

2648
01:57:02,880 --> 01:57:05,120
Bem, esse é o mantra que mencionei anteriormente,

2649
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:06,980
que é sempre que eu consigo

2650
01:57:08,120 --> 01:57:09,460
pausar ou não sei como

2651
01:57:09,840 --> 01:57:10,420
dizer algo,

2652
01:57:10,840 --> 01:57:12,480
Eu apenas digo, deixe-me contar uma história.

2653
01:57:12,660 --> 01:57:13,980
E então eu encontro

2654
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:17,580
a anedota real, a história,

2655
01:57:18,880 --> 01:57:22,780
a história que abrange o que estou tentando transmitir.

2656
01:57:23,200 --> 01:57:24,560
E então eu não digo o que estou tentando

2657
01:57:24,700 --> 01:57:25,060
comunicar.

2658
01:57:25,340 --> 01:57:28,700
Não tenho uma frase de transição que diga:

2659
01:57:28,720 --> 01:57:33,960
você sabe, Elon às vezes muda de ideia com tanta frequência que ele não consegue se lembrar se mudou de ideia ou,

2660
01:57:34,240 --> 01:57:34,920
você sabe, você não,

2661
01:57:35,420 --> 01:57:37,180
você não precisa de sentenças de transição.

2662
01:57:37,900 --> 01:57:38,480
Você acabou de dizer,

2663
01:57:38,860 --> 01:57:41,100
tudo bem, aqui está o que preciso abordar a seguir.

2664
01:57:41,840 --> 01:57:42,500
E assim

2665
01:57:43,080 --> 01:57:45,040
você começa com uma frase que diz:

2666
01:57:46,020 --> 01:57:49,700
você sabe, um dia de janeiro na fábrica no Texas, vírgula.

2667
01:57:51,020 --> 01:57:56,980
Bem, uma das coisas que eu adoraria lhe pedir é um conselho sobre,

2668
01:57:56,980 --> 01:57:58,800
para os jovens, para mim,

2669
01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:08,440
primeiro conselho seria ler biografias no sentido porque elas ajudam você a entender todos os

2670
01:58:08,500 --> 01:58:10,520
diferentes maneiras de viver uma vida bem vivida.

2671
01:58:11,540 --> 01:58:14,000
Mas por ter escrito biografias,

2672
01:58:14,180 --> 01:58:17,300
tendo estudado tantos grandes homens e mulheres,

2673
01:58:17,980 --> 01:58:21,760
que conselho você poderia dar às pessoas sobre como viver isso,

2674
01:58:22,280 --> 01:58:22,700
essa vida?

2675
01:58:23,020 --> 01:58:28,040
Bem, continuo voltando aos clássicos e a Platão, Aristóteles e Sócrates.

2676
01:58:30,060 --> 01:58:33,240
E acho que é a máxima de Platão, mas ele pode estar citando Sócrates,

2677
01:58:33,760 --> 01:58:35,760
que a vida não examinada não vale a pena ser vivida.

2678
01:58:37,220 --> 01:58:39,100
E volta ao conhecer a si mesmo,

2679
01:58:39,520 --> 01:58:41,320
qual é

2680
01:58:42,200 --> 01:58:44,080
você não precisa descobrir qual é o grande

2681
01:58:44,100 --> 01:58:45,040
significado de tudo isso,

2682
01:58:45,560 --> 01:58:46,840
mas você tem que descobrir

2683
01:58:47,740 --> 01:58:49,220
por que você está fazendo o que está fazendo.

2684
01:58:50,780 --> 01:58:51,120
E

2685
01:58:52,100 --> 01:58:57,160
isso requer algo que eu não tinha o suficiente quando era jovem,

2686
01:58:58,200 --> 01:59:00,540
que é autoconsciência

2687
01:59:01,660 --> 01:59:03,800
e examinando cada motivo,

2688
01:59:04,600 --> 01:59:05,440
Tudo que eu faço.

2689
01:59:07,640 --> 01:59:09,360
Aonde o exame o leva?

2690
01:59:10,020 --> 01:59:13,900
É para, para, para uma mudança,

2691
01:59:16,640 --> 01:59:17,680
na trajetória de vida?

2692
01:59:17,900 --> 01:59:18,360
Quero dizer,

2693
01:59:18,960 --> 01:59:21,080
não é para mim mais ou menos,

2694
01:59:21,220 --> 01:59:24,400
tudo bem, agora decidi que fui jornalista,

2695
01:59:24,500 --> 01:59:27,460
Vou administrar um think tank ou uma rede

2696
01:59:27,460 --> 01:59:28,480
ou escreverei uma biografia.

2697
01:59:30,020 --> 01:59:33,580
Na verdade, é algo que é mais útil de hora em hora.

2698
01:59:34,360 --> 01:59:34,860
Como,

2699
01:59:35,660 --> 01:59:40,220
por que estou prestes a dizer isso a alguém ou por que vou

2700
01:59:41,380 --> 01:59:43,280
fazer este ato específico?

2701
01:59:44,360 --> 01:59:47,060
Qual é o meu verdadeiro motivo aqui?

2702
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:50,200
E também no sentido mais amplo

2703
01:59:50,820 --> 01:59:53,380
aprender como aprendi depois de alguns anos na CNN,

2704
01:59:55,980 --> 02:00:02,850
Eu, meu exame da minha vida é que não sou muito bom em administrar organizações complexas.

2705
02:00:03,860 --> 02:00:05,640
Não sou ótimo como gerente,

2706
02:00:06,380 --> 02:00:06,960
dada a escolha.

2707
02:00:06,980 --> 02:00:08,960
Prefiro que outra pessoa tenha que me gerenciar

2708
02:00:08,960 --> 02:00:10,400
do que eu tenho que gerenciar pessoas.

2709
02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:13,540
Mas demorei um pouco para descobrir isso.

2710
02:00:14,040 --> 02:00:14,680
E eu provavelmente estava

2711
02:00:14,680 --> 02:00:18,040
muito ambicioso quando eu era jovem e estava na Time Magazine.

2712
02:00:19,000 --> 02:00:21,100
Isso foi quando eu era verde e,

2713
02:00:21,880 --> 02:00:22,240
Ah bem,

2714
02:00:22,800 --> 02:00:25,880
foi quando eu estava em meus dias de salada verde e julgamento.

2715
02:00:27,260 --> 02:00:29,280
E foi como perseguir

2716
02:00:30,680 --> 02:00:32,880
o próximo nível na Time Incorporated,

2717
02:00:32,880 --> 02:00:34,060
seja lá o que for.

2718
02:00:35,080 --> 02:00:40,640
E então, um dia, peguei o anel de bronze e me tornei editor e depois editor principal.

2719
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:42,560
E depois de um tempo eu percebi

2720
02:00:43,380 --> 02:00:44,860
isso não foi

2721
02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:48,020
realmente totalmente o que eu sou adequado para ser,

2722
02:00:48,020 --> 02:00:50,480
especialmente quando fui encarregado da CNN.

2723
02:00:51,580 --> 02:00:53,660
Quero dizer, todos os jovens estão quase

2724
02:00:53,680 --> 02:00:56,460
definição em seus dias de salada verde e julgamento.

2725
02:00:57,600 --> 02:00:57,840
Mas

2726
02:00:59,160 --> 02:01:00,320
você aprende

2727
02:01:00,980 --> 02:01:02,660
o que está motivando você.

2728
02:01:02,720 --> 02:01:04,600
E então você aprende a perguntar,

2729
02:01:06,160 --> 02:01:08,400
mas é isso mesmo que eu quero?

2730
02:01:08,520 --> 02:01:10,600
Devo ter cuidado com o que estou desejando?

2731
02:01:13,320 --> 02:01:13,820
Um de

2732
02:01:14,480 --> 02:01:17,280
os grandes exames que você pode fazer é o fato

2733
02:01:17,820 --> 02:01:20,220
que você e todo mundo morre um dia.

2734
02:01:21,700 --> 02:01:22,740
Quanto você altera,

2735
02:01:23,360 --> 02:01:24,020
Isaqueson?

2736
02:01:24,140 --> 02:01:24,760
Pense na morte.

2737
02:01:25,100 --> 02:01:25,860
Você tem medo disso?

2738
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:28,000
Não, e não penso muito nisso.

2739
02:01:28,060 --> 02:01:29,780
Mas penso em Steve Jobs,

2740
02:01:29,880 --> 02:01:30,800
deixe-me te contar uma historia,

2741
02:01:30,840 --> 02:01:34,300
que é a maravilhosa história de Steve Jobs,

2742
02:01:35,120 --> 02:01:36,120
Eu acho que depois que ele foi

2743
02:01:36,120 --> 02:01:37,740
diagnosticado, mas antes de ser público.

2744
02:01:38,400 --> 02:01:41,140
E ele deu uma palestra em Stanford, mas outras coisas,

2745
02:01:42,120 --> 02:01:43,400
em que ele disse

2746
02:01:44,160 --> 02:01:46,600
o fato de que vamos morrer

2747
02:01:47,700 --> 02:01:48,240
te dá foco

2748
02:01:48,760 --> 02:01:49,380
e lhe dá significado.

2749
02:01:49,560 --> 02:01:50,260
Se você vai viver,

2750
02:01:50,660 --> 02:01:52,660
e Elon Musk disse isso para mim,

2751
02:01:52,840 --> 02:01:54,520
o que é muita tecnologia

2752
02:01:54,520 --> 02:01:58,420
irmãos do Vale do Silício que estão procurando maneiras de viver para sempre.

2753
02:01:59,080 --> 02:02:00,680
Posso pensar, diz Musk,

2754
02:02:01,000 --> 02:02:02,440
de nada pior.

2755
02:02:03,160 --> 02:02:08,600
Lemos o mito de Sísifo e sabemos como é ruim ser condenado à vida eterna.

2756
02:02:10,460 --> 02:02:11,080
Então

2757
02:02:12,820 --> 02:02:15,060
houve uma Grécia antiga,

2758
02:02:15,220 --> 02:02:19,020
a pessoa que caminhou atrás do rei e disse, memento mori,

2759
02:02:19,540 --> 02:02:20,680
lembre-se que você vai morrer.

2760
02:02:21,400 --> 02:02:26,540
E isso impediu as pessoas de

2761
02:02:27,520 --> 02:02:28,860
perdendo um pouco.

2762
02:02:28,860 --> 02:02:30,320
Você pensa em legado?

2763
02:02:30,940 --> 02:02:33,780
A sorte de ser biógrafo

2764
02:02:34,820 --> 02:02:37,100
é que você sabe qual é o seu legado.

2765
02:02:37,380 --> 02:02:39,600
Vai ter uma estante e vai ser interessante

2766
02:02:39,620 --> 02:02:44,400
pessoas e você terá inspirado um jovem de 17 anos

2767
02:02:44,940 --> 02:02:48,360
estudante de biologia em algum lugar para estar

2768
02:02:49,020 --> 02:02:55,620
o próximo grande bioquímico ou alguém a abrir uma empresa como Elon Musk.

2769
02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:02,060
E o que eu penso mais,

2770
02:03:02,500 --> 02:03:03,540
Não vou dizer retribuir,

2771
02:03:03,600 --> 02:03:04,940
isso é uma coisa tão banal.

2772
02:03:05,560 --> 02:03:07,140
Voltei para Nova Orleans

2773
02:03:08,800 --> 02:03:09,520
por uma razão.

2774
02:03:09,960 --> 02:03:11,220
Em primeiro lugar, o furacão atingiu.

2775
02:03:11,820 --> 02:03:13,520
E depois do Katrina, me pediram para

2776
02:03:14,300 --> 02:03:16,520
ser vice-presidente da autoridade de recuperação.

2777
02:03:17,040 --> 02:03:17,620
E eu percebi

2778
02:03:18,360 --> 02:03:20,020
tudo o que tenho a meu favor,

2779
02:03:20,820 --> 02:03:21,680
tudo vem disso

2780
02:03:22,340 --> 02:03:22,940
lindo

2781
02:03:23,940 --> 02:03:26,060
jóia de uma cidade conturbada.

2782
02:03:27,200 --> 02:03:29,060
A maravilhosa escola secundária que frequentei,

2783
02:03:29,080 --> 02:03:31,360
as ruas maravilhosas onde aprendi

2784
02:03:31,380 --> 02:03:35,680
andar de bicicleta e isso tem desafios.

2785
02:03:36,220 --> 02:03:38,120
Eu nunca vou resolver desafios

2786
02:03:38,940 --> 02:03:41,120
no grande nível global,

2787
02:03:41,600 --> 02:03:43,160
mas posso voltar para casa

2788
02:03:43,940 --> 02:03:46,360
e dizer que parte do meu legado será,

2789
02:03:46,980 --> 02:03:48,440
Eu tentei pagar de volta

2790
02:03:49,480 --> 02:03:50,280
para minha cidade natal,

2791
02:03:50,780 --> 02:03:52,220
mesmo ensinando em Tulane,

2792
02:03:52,240 --> 02:03:53,620
o que não faço como um favor.

2793
02:03:53,820 --> 02:03:55,460
Eu gosto muito disso,

2794
02:03:55,940 --> 02:03:57,920
mas é tipo, tudo bem, faço parte de uma comunidade.

2795
02:03:58,580 --> 02:04:03,260
E acho que perdemos isso na América porque as pessoas que estão sozinhas estão sozinhas porque não estão

2796
02:04:03,340 --> 02:04:04,220
parte de uma comunidade.

2797
02:04:04,660 --> 02:04:06,260
Mas eu tenho todos os meus filhos do ensino médio,

2798
02:04:06,640 --> 02:04:07,960
amigos, eles ainda estão todos dentro

2799
02:04:07,960 --> 02:04:08,360
Nova Orleans.

2800
02:04:08,460 --> 02:04:10,080
Eu tenho minha família,

2801
02:04:10,160 --> 02:04:11,420
mas também tenho Tulane,

2802
02:04:11,660 --> 02:04:13,020
instituições em Nova Orleans que

2803
02:04:13,020 --> 02:04:13,940
estive lá desde sempre.

2804
02:04:14,800 --> 02:04:18,380
E se eu puder ajudar o sistema escolar de Nova Orleans,

2805
02:04:18,760 --> 02:04:21,500
de ajudar os programas de empoderamento juvenil,

2806
02:04:22,200 --> 02:04:24,800
de ajudar o centro de inovação em Tulane,

2807
02:04:25,280 --> 02:04:27,200
Eu estava até na comissão de planejamento urbano,

2808
02:04:27,260 --> 02:04:29,000
que se preocupa com as leis de zoneamento

2809
02:04:29,020 --> 02:04:30,940
para aluguéis de curto prazo,

2810
02:04:31,900 --> 02:04:32,680
você sabe, vai entender.

2811
02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:33,860
Mas foi tipo, não,

2812
02:04:34,280 --> 02:04:36,580
mergulhar na minha comunidade porque minha comunidade

2813
02:04:37,780 --> 02:04:39,900
foi tão incrivelmente bom

2814
02:04:40,260 --> 02:04:42,860
em permitir que eu me tornasse quem eu me tornei

2815
02:04:42,890 --> 02:04:49,120
e tem problemas ano após ano, furacão após furacão,

2816
02:04:49,740 --> 02:04:53,220
garantindo que cada nova geração possa ser criativa.

2817
02:04:53,760 --> 02:04:57,880
E é uma cidade de criatividade, do jazz à comida, à arquitetura.

2818
02:04:58,460 --> 02:05:00,160
Então, quando penso nisso,

2819
02:05:00,700 --> 02:05:01,760
Não direi legado,

2820
02:05:01,860 --> 02:05:04,100
mas o que vou fazer para pagar adiante?

2821
02:05:04,180 --> 02:05:04,820
Qual é

2822
02:05:05,420 --> 02:05:07,680
uma maneira de nível inferior de dizer legado.

2823
02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:11,920
Eu pago adiante voltando ao lugar onde comecei

2824
02:05:11,920 --> 02:05:13,580
e tentando saber pela primeira vez.

2825
02:05:15,680 --> 02:05:18,880
Isso foi um roubo de uma linha de TS Eliot.

2826
02:05:19,120 --> 02:05:21,160
Não quero que você pense que pensei nisso.

2827
02:05:22,640 --> 02:05:24,140
Sempre cite suas fontes,

2828
02:05:24,140 --> 02:05:24,800
Eu agradeço.

2829
02:05:24,820 --> 02:05:29,040
TS Eliot, se você precisar descobrir, os quatro quartetos,

2830
02:05:29,380 --> 02:05:30,700
aquela parte no final,

2831
02:05:30,940 --> 02:05:32,960
ou seja, não cessaremos de explorar.

2832
02:05:33,540 --> 02:05:36,060
E o fim de toda a nossa exploração será

2833
02:05:36,060 --> 02:05:39,120
voltar ao lugar onde começamos e conhecê-lo pela primeira vez

2834
02:05:39,940 --> 02:05:42,420
através do portão desconhecido, mas meio lembrado.

2835
02:05:42,660 --> 02:05:43,580
É simplesmente lindo.

2836
02:05:44,040 --> 02:05:47,460
E isso tem sido uma inspiração de

2837
02:05:49,180 --> 02:05:52,060
o que você faz no,

2838
02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:54,720
Acho que se for uma peça de Shakespeare,

2839
02:05:54,880 --> 02:05:56,000
você chamaria isso de quinto ato.

2840
02:05:57,220 --> 02:05:59,920
Bem, você volta para o lugar de onde veio e

2841
02:06:01,080 --> 02:06:03,960
não fique aí sentado se preocupando com o legado,

2842
02:06:04,160 --> 02:06:05,320
mas você vai ficar aí sentado dizendo:

2843
02:06:05,620 --> 02:06:06,340
como posso ter certeza

2844
02:06:06,340 --> 02:06:07,680
que outra pessoa pode ter

2845
02:06:09,240 --> 02:06:10,120
um mágico

2846
02:06:10,720 --> 02:06:12,540
trajetória começando em Nova Orleans?

2847
02:06:14,120 --> 02:06:17,500
Bem, para mim, você é um dos maiores contadores de histórias de todos os tempos.

2848
02:06:18,000 --> 02:06:19,320
Tenho sido um grande fã.

2849
02:06:19,380 --> 02:06:21,340
Definitivamente não é verdade, mas é muito gentil da sua parte.

2850
02:06:21,400 --> 02:06:23,380
Veja, você pode... Interromper brutalmente.

2851
02:06:26,870 --> 02:06:28,760
Eu penso

2852
02:06:29,640 --> 02:06:31,000
provavelmente Ben Franklin,

2853
02:06:32,080 --> 02:06:33,120
então, por não sei quantos anos,

2854
02:06:33,160 --> 02:06:36,500
15 anos, Einstein até hoje,

2855
02:06:36,820 --> 02:06:38,320
Acabei de ser um grande fã seu.

2856
02:06:38,460 --> 02:06:41,270
E você é uma das pessoas que eu pensei que certamente

2857
02:06:41,880 --> 02:06:44,940
não se rebaixariam para aparecer

2858
02:06:44,940 --> 02:06:46,840
e converse comigo.

2859
02:06:47,780 --> 02:06:49,820
E é apenas um presente gigante para mim.

2860
02:06:49,840 --> 02:06:53,620
Ei, voei para Austin para isso porque sou um grande fã

2861
02:06:54,240 --> 02:06:55,460
e principalmente um grande fã

2862
02:06:55,460 --> 02:06:57,240
porque você leva as pessoas a sério

2863
02:06:57,820 --> 02:06:58,260
e você se importa.

2864
02:06:59,040 --> 02:07:00,300
Obrigado mil vezes.

2865
02:07:00,500 --> 02:07:03,180
Obrigado por me respeitar e por inspirar apenas

2866
02:07:03,180 --> 02:07:04,720
milhões de pessoas com suas histórias.

2867
02:07:04,980 --> 02:07:07,400
Novamente, uma narrativa incrível, um ser humano incrível.

2868
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:09,200
E obrigado por conversar hoje.

2869
02:07:09,480 --> 02:07:10,020
Obrigado, Alex.

2870
02:07:11,160 --> 02:07:14,900
Obrigado por ouvir esta conversa com Walter Isaacson para apoiar este podcast.

2871
02:07:15,200 --> 02:07:17,520
Confira nossos patrocinadores na descrição.

2872
02:07:18,060 --> 02:07:20,060
E agora deixe-me deixá-lo com

2873
02:07:20,060 --> 02:07:21,800
uma das minhas citações favoritas de Carl Jung.

2874
02:07:23,020 --> 02:07:24,080
As pessoas farão qualquer coisa,

2875
02:07:24,940 --> 02:07:26,080
por mais absurdo que seja,

2876
02:07:26,540 --> 02:07:28,680
para evitar enfrentar suas próprias almas.

2877
02:07:29,880 --> 02:07:32,740
Ninguém se ilumina imaginando figuras de luz,

2878
02:07:33,560 --> 02:07:36,140
mas tornando a escuridão consciente.

2879
02:07:37,280 --> 02:07:38,720
Obrigado por ouvir e esperança

2880
02:07:38,820 --> 02:07:40,240
para ver você na próxima vez.

Spanish transcription text:

WALTER: Espero que con mis libros esté diciendo que esto no es una guía práctica, sino que es alguien con quien puedes caminar. Puedes ver a Einstein creciendo como judío en Alemania. Puedes ver a Jennifer Doudna creciendo como una outsider o a Leonardo da Vinci o Elon Musk en una Sudáfrica realmente violenta con un padre psicológicamente difícil. Y al bajarse del tren cuando va a un concierto contra el apartheid con su hermano y hay un hombre con un cuchillo saliendo de su cabeza y se meten en el charco de sangre y se les pega al alma. Esto provoca cicatrices que duran el resto de su vida. Y la pregunta no es ¿cómo evitar las cicatrices? ¿Cómo lo afrontas?

LEX: La siguiente es una conversación con Walter Isaacson, uno de los mejores escritores de biografías de todos los tiempos. Habiendo escrito libros increíbles sobre Albert Einstein, Steve Jobs, Leonardo da Vinci, Jennifer Doudna, Benjamin Franklin, Henry Kissinger y ahora uno nuevo sobre Elon Musk. Hablamos durante horas dentro y fuera del micrófono. Seguro que hablaremos muchas más veces. Walter es un escritor, pensador, observador y ser humano verdaderamente especial. Recomiendo encarecidamente a la gente que lea su nuevo libro sobre Elon. Estoy seguro de que habrá controversia a corto plazo, pero a largo plazo creo que inspirará a millones de jóvenes, especialmente con infancias difíciles, con dificultades en su entorno o en sus propias mentes, a asumir los problemas más difíciles en el mundo y encontrar soluciones a esos problemas, sin importar cuán imposibles sean las probabilidades. En esta conversación, Walter y yo cubrimos todos sus libros y utilizamos historias personales de ellos para hablar de los principios más amplios de la lucha por la grandeza en la ciencia, la tecnología, la ingeniería, el arte, la política y la vida. Hay muchas cosas en el nuevo libro de Elon que sentí que sería mejor guardar para cuando vuelva a hablar directamente con Elon en este podcast, lo cual será muy pronto. Quizás también sea bueno mencionar aquí que mis amistades como la de Elon, ni ninguna otra influencia como el dinero, el acceso, la fama o el poder, jamás resultarán en que sacrifique mi integridad. Me gusta celebrar lo bueno de las personas, sentir empatía y comprender, pero también me gusta denunciar a las personas sus tonterías con respeto y compasión. Si fracaso, fracaso por falta de habilidad, no por falta de integridad. Trabajaré duro para mejorar. Este es el podcast de Lex Friedman. Para respaldarlo, consulte nuestros patrocinadores en la descripción. Y ahora, queridos amigos, aquí está Walter Isaacson. ¿Cuál es el papel de una infancia difícil en la vida de grandes hombres y mujeres, de grandes mentes? ¿Es eso un requisito? ¿Es un catalizador o es simplemente una simple coincidencia del destino?

WALTER: Bueno, no es un requisito. Algunas personas con una infancia feliz lo hacen bastante bien, pero ciertamente es cierto que muchas personas realmente motivadas lo hacen porque están aprovechando los demonios de su infancia. Incluso la frase de Barack Obama en sus memorias, que dice: "Creo que todo hombre exitoso está tratando de estar a la altura de las expectativas de su padre o de olvidar los pecados de su padre". Y para Elon, es especialmente cierto porque tuvo una infancia violenta y difícil y un padre psicológicamente muy problemático. Tiene esos demonios bailando en su cabeza y, al controlarlos, es parte de la razón por la que hace cosas más arriesgadas, más aventureras y más salvajes de las que tal vez yo jamás haría.

LEX: He escrito que Elon Habló de su padre y que por momentos sentía como una tortura mental la interacción con él durante su infancia. ¿Puedes describir algunas de las cosas que has aprendido?

WALTER: Sí, bueno, Elon y Kimball me contarían eso, por ejemplo, cuando a Elon lo acosaron en el patio de recreo y un día lo empujaron contra un suelo de concreto. pasos y le golpearon la cara con tanta fuerza que Kimball dijo: Realmente no podía reconocerlo. Es decir, estuvo en el hospital casi una semana. Pero cuando llegó a casa, Elon tuvo que pararse frente a su padre y su padre lo reprendió durante más de una hora y dijo que era estúpido y se puso del lado de la persona que lo había golpeado.

LEX: Ese es probablemente uno de los eventos más traumáticos de la vida de Elon.

WALTER: Sí. Y también está la escuela Veld, que es una especie de campo paramilitar al que enviaron a los jóvenes sudafricanos. Y en un momento, estaba flaco. Tiene muy mala capacidad para captar señales sociales y emocionales. Habla de tener Asperger. Y por eso queda traumatizado en un campamento como ese. Pero la segunda vez que fue, se hizo más grande. Había alcanzado casi el metro ochenta y había aprendido un poco de judo. Y se dio cuenta de que si lo golpeaban, podría lastimarlo, pero simplemente le daría un puñetazo en la nariz lo más fuerte posible. Así que esa sensación de siempre devolver el golpe también está arraigada en Elon. Pasé mucho tiempo hablando con Errol Musk, su padre.Elon ya no habla con Errol Musk, su padre, ni tampoco Kimball. Han pasado muchos años. Y Errol ni siquiera tiene el correo electrónico de Elon. Muchas veces, Errol me envía correos electrónicos. YErrol tenía una de esas personalidades de Jekyll y Hyde. Era una gran mente de la ingeniería y especialmente de la ciencia de los materiales. Sabía cómo construir un campamento en la naturaleza en Sudáfrica usando mica y cómo no conduciría el calor. Pero también atravesaba períodos oscuros en los que simplemente abusaba psicológicamente. Y, por supuesto, me dice May Musk, dijo su madre, que se divorció de Errol desde el principio, el peligro para Elon es que se convierta en su padre. Y de vez en cuando has estado mucho con él, Lex, y lo conoces bien. Incluso te hablará de los demonios, de Diablo bailando en su cabeza. Quiero decir, lo entiende, es consciente de sí mismo, pero probablemente lo hayas visto en momentos en los que esos demonios se apoderan de él y se vuelve muy oscuro y muy silencioso. Y Grimes dice: Puedo decir con uno o dos minutos de anticipación cuándo está a punto de suceder el modo demonio. Y se pondrá un poco oscuro. Una vez estuve aquí en Austin cenando con un grupo. Y de repente se notaba que algo lo había desencadenado y que se iba a quedar a oscuras. Lo he visto en reuniones donde alguien decía, no podemos hacer esa pieza por menos de $200 o no, eso está mal. Y él los reprenderá. Y luego se recupera. Como ya sabes, la gran instantánea en la que de repente te muestra una parodia de Monty Python en su teléfono y bromea sobre cosas. Así que creo que al salir de la infancia, había muchas facetas, tal vez incluso muchas personalidades, el modo ingeniero, el modo tonto, el modo carismático, el modo visionario, pero también el demonio en modo oscuro.

LEX: Una cita que usted citó sobre Elon realmente me llamó la atención. No recuerdo de quién era, pero dentro del hombre, todavía está ahí cuando era niño, el niño parado frente a su padre.

WALTER: Esa era Tallulah, su segunda esposa. Y ella es genial. Ella es una actriz inglesa. De hecho, se han casado dos veces. Y Tallulah dijo que así es él desde su infancia. Es un adicto al drama. Kimball también dice eso. Y pregunté por qué. Y Tallulah dijo que, para él, el amor y la familia están asociados con esos tormentos psicológicos. Y en muchos sentidos, canalizará. Quiero decir, Tallulah estaría con él en 2008, cuando la empresa iba a la quiebra o lo que fuera o más tarde. Y estaría tan estresado que vomitaría. Y luego canalizaba las cosas que su padre había dicho, usaba frases que su padre le había dicho. Y entonces ella me dijo, en el fondo del hombre está este hijo varón todavía parado frente a su padre.

LEX: ¿Hasta qué punto crees que eso es cierto para muchos de nosotros?

WALTER: Creo que es cierto, pero de muchas maneras diferentes. Diré algo personal, y es que fui bendecido y quizás también sea un poco negativo, el hecho de que tuve el mejor padre y madre que puedas imaginar. Eran las personas más amables que jamás querrías conocer. Crecí en un lugar mágico en Nueva Orleans. Mi papá era ingeniero, ingeniero eléctrico. Y él siempre fue amable. Quizás no estoy tan motivado ni tan loco. No tengo que probar cosas. Entonces puedo escribir sobre Elon Musk. Puedo escribir sobre Einstein, Steve Jobs o Leonardo da Vinci, quien, como saben, estuvo totalmente desgarrado por demonios y tuvo diferentes situaciones infantiles difíciles, que ni siquiera legitimadas por su padre. Entonces, a veces aquellos de nosotros que tenemos la suerte de tener una infancia realmente amable y dulce, crecemos con menos demonios, pero crecemos con menos impulsos y terminamos tal vez siendo Boswell y no siendo el Dr. Johnson. Terminamos siendo el observador, no el hacedor. Y por eso siempre respeto a los que están en la arena.

LEX: No te ves como un hombre en la arena.

WALTER: He tenido una carrera amable y dulce. y tengo que cubrir gente realmente interesante, pero nunca he lanzado un cohete que algún día pueda llegar a Marte. Nunca nos he movido al aire de los vehículos eléctricos. Nunca me he quedado despierto toda la noche en la fábrica. No tengo esos impulsos ni esa adicción al riesgo. Quiero decir, Elon es adicto al riesgo. Es adicto a la aventura. Yo, si veo algo que es riesgoso, dedico un tiempo a calcular, bueno, aquí al revés. Pero esa es otra razón por la que personas como Elon Musk hacen cosas y personas como yo escriben sobre Elon Musk.

LEX: Otro aspecto de esto, dada una infancia difícil, ya sea Elon o DaVinci, me pregunto si hay algo de sabiduría, casi algunos consejos que puedes aprender, que puedes darles a personas con infancias difíciles.

WALTER: Creo que todos tenemos demonios, incluso aquellos que crecimos en una parte mágica de Nueva Orleans con padres dulces. Todos tenemos demonios. La primera regla en la vida es controlar tus demonios. Sepa que es ambicioso o no ambicioso o que es vago o lo que sea. Leonardo DaVinci sabía que era un procrastinador. Creo que es útil saber qué te comen, saber cómo aprovecharlo.También debes saber en qué eres bueno. Tomaré a Musk como otro ejemplo. Me parezco un poco más a Kimball Musk que a Elon. Quizás me sobre dotaron del gen de la empatía. ¿Qué significa eso?¿significar? Bueno, significa que estaba bien cuando dirigía la revista Time. Era un grupo de unas 150 personas en la redacción, los conocía a todos y nos lo pasamos muy bien. Cuando fui a CNN, no era muy bueno como gerente o ejecutivo de una organización. Me importaba demasiado que la gente no se molestara o se enojara conmigo. Elon dijo eso sobre John McNeil, por ejemplo, quien fue presidente de Tesla. Está en el libro. Hablé con John McNeil durante mucho tiempo y me dijo: Elon simplemente despedía gente. Es muy duro con la gente. No tenía empatía por la gente que tenía delante. Elon dice, sí, es cierto. John McNeil no podía despedir a la gente. Le importaba más complacer a la gente que tenía delante que complacer a toda la empresa o hacer las cosas. Tener un deseo excesivo de complacer a la gente puede hacer que usted sea un gerente menos duro. Eso no significa que no haya grandes personas superdotadas. Ben Franklin, muy dotado del deseo de complacer a la gente. La peor crítica que John Adams y otros le hicieron fue que estaba insinuando, lo que significaba que siempre estaba tratando de agradarle a la gente. Pero eso resultó ser algo bueno cuando no pueden resolver la cuestión del Estado grande y el Estado pequeño en la Convención Constitucional, cuando no pueden resolver el Tratado de París, sea lo que sea, que une a la gente y que es su superpoder. Entonces, para volver a las lecciones que pediste, la primera fue controlar tus demonios. El segundo es conocer tus puntos fuertes y tu superpoder. Mi superpoder definitivamente es no ser un administrador duro. Después de dirigir CNN por un tiempo, dije, está bien, me demostraron que realmente no disfruto esto ni sé cómo hacerlo bien. ¿Tengo otros talentos? Sí, creo que tengo el talento para observar a la gente muy de cerca, para escribir sobre ello en un estilo narrativo directo, pero espero que sea interesante. Eso es un poder. Es totalmente diferente a dirigir una organización. Me llevó hasta tres años dirigiendo CNN que me di cuenta de que no estoy hecho para ser ejecutivo en situaciones realmente intensas. Elon Musk está hecho para ser un ejecutivo en situaciones muy intensas, hasta el punto de que cuando las cosas se vuelven menos intensas, cuando en realidad están fabricando suficientes autos y los cohetes suben y aterrizan, él piensa en otra cosa para poder aumentar y tener más intensidad. . Es adicto a la intensidad y ese es su superpoder, que es mucho mayor que el superpoder de ser un buen observador.

LEX: Pero creo que también, para aprovechar eso, no es sólo adicción al riesgo y al drama. Siempre hay una gran misión por encima. Entonces yo diría que es una empatía hacia las personas en el panorama general.

WALTER: Es una empatía hacia la humanidad más que la empatía hacia los tres o cuatro humanos que podrían estar sentados en la sala de conferencias contigo. Y eso es un gran problema. Eso lo ves en mucha gente. Ya lo ven, Bill Gates, Larry Summers, Elon Musk. Siempre tienen empatía por estos grandes objetivos de la humanidad. Y a veces pueden no tener idea de las emociones de las personas frente a ellos o, a veces, ser insensibles. Musk, como dijiste, está impulsado por la misión más que cualquier persona que haya visto. Y no es sólo una misión, son como misiones cósmicas, lo que significa que tiene tres misiones realmente grandes. Una es hacer de los humanos una civilización espacial, hacernos multiplanetarios o llevarnos a Marte. El número dos es llevarnos a la era de la energía sostenible, llevarnos a la era de los vehículos eléctricos, los techos solares y los paquetes de baterías. Y en tercer lugar, garantizar que la inteligencia artificial sea segura y esté alineada con los valores humanos. Y de vez en cuando hablaba con él y hablábamos de los satélites Starlink o lo que sea. O estaría empujando a la gente que tiene delante en SpaceX y diciéndoles: si hacen esto, nunca llegaremos a Marte en nuestra vida. Y luego daría una conferencia sobre lo importante que era para la conciencia humana llegar a Marte durante nuestra vida. Y estoy pensando, está bien, esta es la charla de alguien que intenta inspirar a un equipo o tal vez es un tipo de pontificación que se hace en un podcast. Pero como la vigésima vez que lo vi, me di cuenta, está bien, lo creo. En realidad, esto lo impulsa.

LEX: Está frustrado y enojado porque debido a esta decisión de ingeniería menor en particular, la gran misión no se va a cumplir. No es una charla de ánimo. Es una frustración literal.

WALTER: Y la impaciencia, una frustración. Y probablemente también lo más profundamente arraigado en él es su misión. En un momento bromeó sobre lo mucho que le encantaba leer cómics cuando era niño. Y él dijo, todas las personas en los cómics, están tratando de salvar el mundo, pero llevan calzoncillos por fuera y se ven ridículos. Y luego hizo una pausa y dijo, pero están tratando de salvar el mundo.Y ya sea Starlink en Ucrania o Starship yendo a Marte o tratando de conseguir un nuevo Tesla global, creo que tiene este sentido épico del papel que desempeñará para ayudar a la humanidad en grandes cosas. Y, comolos personajes de los cómics, a veces es ridículo, pero a veces también es cierto.

LEX: Cuando estaba leyendo esta parte del libro, estaba pensando en todos los jóvenes que están luchando de esta manera. . Y creo que muchas personas lo son de diferentes maneras, ya sea que crezcan sin un padre, ya sea que crezcan con abuso físico, emocional, mental o demonios de cualquier tipo, como mencionaste. Y es realmente doloroso de leer, pero también muy inspirador que si caminas al lado de esos demonios, si no dejas que ese dolor te rompa o de alguna manera lo canalices, si puedes decirlo de esta manera, Puedes lograr, puedes hacer grandes cosas en este mundo.

WALTER: Bueno, esa es una visión épica de por qué escribimos biografías, que es más épica de lo que había pensado. Entonces digo gracias porque de alguna manera lo que estás tratando de hacer es decir, bueno, quiero decir, Leonardo, hablas de ser un inadaptado, nació ilegítimo en el pueblo de Vinci y es gay y es zurdo y está distraído y su padre no lo legitima. Y luego se va a la ciudad de Florencia y se convierte en el mayor artista e ingeniero de esa parte del Renacimiento. Espero que este libro inspire. Jennifer Doudna, la pionera en la edición de genes que ayuda a descubrir CRISPR, la herramienta de edición de genes, que en mi libro, The Code Breaker, creció sintiéndose como una inadaptada en Hawái, en un pueblo de la Polinesia, siendo la única persona blanca y también tratando de estar a la altura. un padre que la empujó. Entonces, si la gente puede leer los libros, y debería haberlo dicho sobre Jennifer Doudna, mi punto es que su consejero escolar le dijo que no, las niñas no hacen ciencia. Ya sabes, la ciencia no es para niñas. No vas a hacer matemáticas ni ciencias. Y eso la empuja a decir, está bien, voy a estudiar matemáticas y ciencias.

LEX: Solo para interrumpir muy rápido, pero Jennifer Doudna, has escrito un libro increíble sobre ella, Nobel. Ganador del premio, desarrollador CRISPR, simplemente increíble, uno de los grandes científicos del siglo XXI.

WALTER: Correcto. Y estoy hablando de cuando Jennifer Doudna era joven y se sentía realmente fuera de lugar, como tú y yo y mucha gente cuando se siente de esa manera, leen libros, se acurrucan con el libro. . Entonces su padre deja caer un libro sobre su cama llamado La doble hélice, el libro de James Watson sobre el descubrimiento de la estructura del ADN por él, Rosalind Franklin y Francis Crick. Y se da cuenta de que, Dios mío, las niñas pueden convertirse en científicas. Mi consejero escolar está equivocado. Entonces creo que los libros, como ella leyó este libro, e incluso si es un cómic, como el que leyó Elon Musk, a veces los libros pueden inspirarte. Y cada uno de mis libros trata sobre personas que son totalmente innovadoras, que no sólo eran inteligentes, porque ninguno de nosotros será capaz de igualar a Einstein y su poder de procesamiento mental. Pero podemos ser tan curiosos como él y creativos y pensar de manera innovadora como él lo hizo, o como lo expresó Steve Jobs, pensar diferente. Y espero que con mis libros diga que esto no es una guía práctica, sino que es alguien con quien puedes caminar. Puedes ver a Einstein creciendo como judío en Alemania. Puedes ver a Jennifer Doudna creciendo como una outsider o a Leonardo da Vinci o Elon Musk en una Sudáfrica realmente violenta con un padre psicológicamente difícil. Y al bajarse del tren cuando va a un concierto contra el apartheid con su hermano, hay un hombre con un cuchillo saliendo de su cabeza, y se meten en el charco de sangre y se les pega al alma. Esto provoca cicatrices que duran el resto de su vida. Y la pregunta no es ¿cómo evitar las cicatrices? ¿Es cómo lo manejas?

LEX: Einstein también, uno de los míos, y es difícil elegir mi favorito de tus biografías, pero Einstein, quiero decir, realmente pintas un cuadro de otro, no No quiero llamarlo inadaptado, sino una persona que no necesariamente tiene una trayectoria estándar en una vida de éxito. Eso es extremadamente inspirador. No sé exactamente qué pregunta hacer. Hay un millón.

WALTER: Bueno, hablaré del inadaptado por un segundo, porque hablamos de que Leonardo era así. Einstein es judío en Alemania en un momento en que las cosas empiezan a ponerse difíciles. Le cuesta aprender a hablar y es un pensador visual. Por eso siempre está soñando despierto e imaginando cosas. La primera vez se postula para el Politécnico de Zurich, porque huye del sistema educativo alemán porque es demasiado de memoria. El politécnico de Zurich lo rechaza. Ahora es la segunda mejor escuela de Zurich y rechazan a Einstein. Intenté encontrar, pero no pude, el nombre del asesor de admisiones del Politécnico de Zurich. Como rechazaste a Einstein. Y luego no termina entre la mitad superior de su clase. Y una vez que lo hace y va a la escuela de posgrado, no aceptan su tesis.Entonces no puede conseguir un trabajo. No lo está enseñando. Incluso intenta conseguir un trabajo en 14 escuelas secundarias y gimnasios diferentes y no lo aceptan. Entonces él es de tercera clase.examinador en la oficina de patentes suiza en 1905. Tercera clase porque rechazaron su tesis doctoral. Y entonces no puede ser de segunda ni de primera porque no tiene un doctorado. Y, sin embargo, está sentado en el taburete de la oficina de patentes en 1905 y escribe tres artículos que transforman totalmente la ciencia. Y si está pensando en ser incomprendido o despreciado en 1906, sigue siendo una patente de tercera clase. En 1907 todavía lo es. Fue necesario hasta 1909 antes de que la gente se diera cuenta de que esta noción de la teoría de la relatividad podría ser correcta y podría alterar toda la física newtoniana.

LEX: ¿Cómo es posible que tres de los artículos más importantes de la historia de la ciencia que esta persona escribirá en un año? ¿Hay alguna idea o sabiduría que extraigas?

WALTER: Además, él, sin su trabajo diario, es examinador de patentes. Y en realidad hay tres artículos, pero también hay un anexo porque una vez que descubres la teoría cuántica y luego descubres la relatividad y comprendes las ecuaciones de Maxwell y la velocidad de la luz, él hace un pequeño anexo. Esa es la ecuación más famosa de toda la física, que es E igual a MC al cuadrado. Entonces es un año bastante bueno. En parte comienza porque es un pensador visual. Y creo que fue útil que estuviera en la oficina de patentes en lugar de ser el acólito de algún profesor en la academia donde se suponía que debía seguir las reglas. Y por eso la oficina de patentes dijo que se estaban fabricando dispositivos para sincronizar relojes porque los suizos acaban de adoptar zonas horarias estándar y los suizos, como saben, tienden a ser más bien suizos. Les importa que si da la hora en Basilea, debería hacer lo mismo y arder exactamente en el final. Entonces hay que enviar una señal luminosa entre dos relojes distantes. Y está visualizando cómo será viajar junto a un rayo de luz. Él dice, bueno, si lo alcanzas, si vas casi tan rápido, parecerá estacionario. Pero las ecuaciones de Maxwell no lo permiten. Y él dijo: Me está haciendo sudar la palma de la mano porque estaba tan preocupada. Y finalmente se da cuenta, porque está mirando estos dispositivos para sincronizar relojes, que si viajas muy, muy rápido, lo que te parece sincrónico o sincronizado es diferente a lo que ocurre con alguien que viaja muy rápido en la otra dirección. Y esa vez da el salto mental de que la velocidad de la luz es siempre constante, pero el tiempo es relativo dependiendo de tu estado de movimiento. Así que fue ese tipo de pensamiento innovador, esos saltos los que hicieron de 1905 su año milagroso. Lo mismo ocurre con Musk, es decir, después de General Motors y Ford, todo el mundo abandona los vehículos eléctricos para simplemente decir: Sé cómo vamos a tener un camino para cambiar toda la trayectoria del mundo hacia la era de los vehículos eléctricos. Y luego, cuando regresó de Rusia, donde intentó comprar un pequeño cohete para poder enviar un invernadero experimental a Marte, se estaban burlando de ellos y, de hecho, les escupieron en un momento durante un almuerzo de borrachera. Esto es muy fortuito porque en el viaje de regreso a casa en el avión, en el vuelo de Delta Airlines, es como hacer cálculos de cuántos materiales, cuánto metal, cuánto combustible, cuánto costaría realmente. Y entonces visualiza cosas que otras personas simplemente dirían que son imposibles. Es lo que los amigos de Steve Jobs llamaban el campo de distorsión de la realidad. Y enloqueció a la gente. Los volvía locos, pero también los llevaba a hacer cosas que no creían que serían capaces de hacer.

LEX: Dijiste pensamiento visual. Me pregunto si has visto paralelos entre los diferentes estilos y tipos de pensamiento que operan las mentes de estas personas. Entonces, ¿ves paralelos entre Elon, Steve Jobs, Einstein y Da Vinci, específicamente en su forma de pensar?

WALTER: Creo que todos eran pensadores visuales, tal vez con ligeras discapacidades cuando eran niños, lo que significa que Leonardo era Creo que es zurdo y un poco disléctico. Y ciertamente Einstein tenía una callia. Repetiría cosas. Tardó en aprender a hablar. Entonces creo que visualizar ayuda mucho. Y con Musk, lo veo todo el tiempo cuando camino con él por las líneas de la fábrica o en el desarrollo de productos, donde mira, por ejemplo, el escudo térmico debajo del motor Raptor de un propulsor Starship. Y él dirá, ¿por qué tiene que ser así? ¿No podríamos recortarlo de esta manera? O incluso deshacerse de esta parte. Y puede visualizar la ciencia material. Hay pequeñas anécdotas en mi libro, pero en un momento él está en la línea de Tesla y están tratando de conseguir 5.000 autos por semana en 2018. Es una situación de vida o muerte. Y está mirando las máquinas que están atornillando algo al chasis. Y llega Lars Moravey, uno de sus grandes lugartenientes y tienen que citarlo. Y él dice, ¿por qué hay seis tornillos aquí? Y Lars y otros explicaron, bueno, para las pruebas de choque o cualquier otra cosa, la presión sería de esta manera, así que hay que hacerlo.Y eran bla, bla, bla, bla, bla. Y él dijo que no. Si lo visualizas, verás que si hay un choque, la fuerza desaparecerá.de esta manera y de aquella manera. Y se puede hacer con cuatro tornillos. Eso suena arriesgado. Y lo prueban y lo diseñan, pero resulta que es correcto. Sé que parece menor, pero podría darles 500 de ellos, en los que, en un día cualquiera, visualiza la física de un problema de ingeniería o fabricación. Eso suena bastante mundano. Pero para mí, si dices qué lo hace especial, hay algo impulsado por una misión. Les doy muchas razones, pero una de las razones es que a él no solo le importa el diseño del producto, sino también visualizar la fabricación del producto, la máquina que fabrica la máquina. Y eso es lo que no pudimos hacer en Estados Unidos durante los últimos 40 años. Subcontratamos gran parte de la fabricación. No creo que puedas ser un buen innovador si no sabes cómo hacer lo que estás diseñando. Y es por eso que Musk coloca su escritorio de diseñador justo al lado de las líneas de ensamblaje en las fábricas para que tengan que visualizar lo que dibujaron a medida que se convierte en el objeto físico.

LEX: Entonces, entender todo, desde la física hasta el final. hasta el software, es como de extremo a extremo.

WALTER: Bueno, tener un control de extremo a extremo es importante, ciertamente con Steve Jobs. Estoy mirando mi iPhone aquí. Tiene mucha importancia. Ese hardware sólo funciona con el software de Apple y, por un tiempo, con la tienda iTunes. Así que tiene un final a fin que lo hace como un jardín zen en Kioto, muy cuidadosamente cuidado, pero una cosa de belleza. Para Musk, cuando estuvo por primera vez en Tesla y antes de ser director ejecutivo, cuando era solo el presidente ejecutivo y básicamente el financiero que lo financiaba, estaban subcontratando todo. Estaban fabricando las baterías en Japón y el paquete de baterías estaría en alguna tienda de barbacoas en Tailandia y se enviaría a la fábrica de Lotus en Inglaterra para colocarlo en un chasis Lotus Elise y luego mencionarlo. Eso fue una pesadilla. No tenías control de principio a fin del proceso de fabricación. Entonces se va al otro extremo. Obtiene una fábrica de Toyota en Fremont y quiere hacer todo internamente, el software internamente, la pintura internamente, la batería. Él fabrica sus propias baterías. Y creo que ese control de extremo a extremo es parte de su personalidad. Pero también le permitiría a Tesla ser innovador.

LEX: Sí, pude ver y comprender en detalle un ejemplo de eso, que es el desarrollo del cerebro del automóvil en piloto automático, desde el ojo móvil. hasta la construcción interna del sistema de piloto automático y, básicamente, deshacerse de todos los sensores que no son ricos en datos para hacerlo compatible con la IA, es decir, que podemos hacerlo todo con la visión. Y como dijiste, quitando algunos de los tornillos. Entonces, a veces son cosas pequeñas, pero a veces son cosas realmente grandes, como deshacerse del radar.

WALTER: Bueno, deshacerse del radar solo con visión es enorme y todos están en contra. Todos. Y eso todavía es luchar un poco. Todavía están intentando crear una próxima generación, algún tipo de radar, pero vuelve a los primeros principios. Estamos hablando de visualizar. Bueno, comienza con los primeros principios y los primeros principios de la física involucran cosas como lo que los humanos conducen solo con información visual. No tienen radar. No tienen LIDAR. No tienen sonar. Por lo tanto, no había ninguna razón en las leyes de la física que hicieran que la visión por sí sola no tuviera éxito en la creación de conducción autónoma. Ahora eso se convierte en un artículo de fe para él y recibe muchas críticas. Y, por cierto, no ha tenido mucho éxito en cumplir los plazos para conseguir la conducción autónoma. Es demasiado optimista, pero ese fue el primer principio de deshacerse de cosas innecesarias. Ahora pensarías en LIDAR, ¿por qué no usarlo? ¿Por qué no usar un flechazo? Es como, sí, podemos hacer cosas sólo con visión, pero cuando miro las estrellas por la noche, también uso un telescopio. Bueno, se podría usar LIDAR, pero no se pueden fabricar millones de automóviles de esa manera a escala. En cierto punto, hay que convertirlo no sólo en un buen producto, sino también en un producto que vaya a escala. Y no puedes hacerlo basándose en mapas como Google Maps, porque nunca podrás conducir desde Nueva Orleans a Slidell, donde quiero ir cuando hace demasiado calor en Nueva Orleans. Tomemos, por ejemplo, la conducción autónoma total. Ha estado obsesionado con lo que él llama el robo taxi. Vamos a construir el coche de próxima generación sin volante, sin pedales, porque será totalmente autónomo. Simplemente convocalo. No necesitarás conducirlo. Bueno, una y otra vez, todas estas personas de las que les he hablado, Lars Morave y Drew Baglino y otros, dicen, está bien, eso suena muy bien, pero aún no ha sucedido. Necesitamos construir un automóvil de mercado global de 25.000 dólares que sea normal y tenga volante. Y sí, finalmente se dio la vuelta hace unos meses y dijo: hagámoslo.¿Y luego empieza a centrarse en cómo va a funcionar la línea de montaje? ¿Cómo lo vamos a hacer y convertirlo en la misma plataforma para robo taxi para que puedas tener el mismo ensamblaje? Del mismo modo, para una conducción autónoma total, lo hacían codificando cientos demiles de líneas de código que dirían cosas como, si ves una luz roja, detente. Si hay una luz parpadeante, si hay dos líneas amarillas, haz esto. Si hay un carril bici, haz esto. Si hay un paso de peatones, hazlo. Bueno, eso es realmente difícil de hacer. Naly lo está haciendo únicamente a través de inteligencia artificial y aprendizaje automático. FSD12 se basará en los mil millones de fotogramas de Tesla cada semana de los conductores de Tesla y preguntará: ¿qué pasó cuando un humano estaba en esta situación? ¿Qué hizo el humano? Y elijamos sólo a los mejores humanos, los conductores de cinco estrellas, los conductores de Uber, como dice Elon. Y entonces él cambia de opinión y va a los primeros principios, pero dice, está bien, incluso voy a cambiar la conducción totalmente autónoma. Entonces eso no se basa en reglas. Se basa en la IA. Al igual que ChatGPT no intenta responder tu pregunta, ¿quiénes son los cinco mejores papas o algo así mediante el estudio? ChatGPT lo hace al haber ingerido miles de millones de escritos que la gente ha escrito. Esto será IA, pero en el mundo real se logrará mediante la ingesta de video.

LEX: A veces parece que él y otros, que están construyendo cosas en este mundo con éxito, básicamente están explorando con confianza un cuarto oscuro con una visión muy segura. Una visión ambiciosa de cómo luce realmente esa habitación. Simplemente están caminando directamente hacia la oscuridad. No hay juguetes dolorosos ni Legos en el suelo. Sólo voy a caminar. Sé exactamente a qué distancia está el muro. Y luego, muy rápidamente, dispuestos a adaptarse cuando se topan, pisan el Lego y su cuerpo se llena de mucho dolor. Lo que quiero decir con esto es que hay este tipo de evolución que parece ocurrir en la que descubres ideas realmente buenas a lo largo del camino que te permiten girar. Como para mí, desde hace unos años, cuando pude ver con Andrei Karpathy la evolución del software 2.0 del piloto automático, me resultó evidente que no se trata del coche. Se trata de Optimus, el robot. Si miramos hacia atrás dentro de cien años, el automóvil será recordado como un automóvil genial, un buen transporte, pero el piloto automático no será lo que controle el automóvil. Será lo que permitirá que los sistemas de IA incorporados comprendan el mundo. En términos generales, ese tipo de enfoque te topa con él. ¿Será Tesla una empresa de automóviles? ¿Será una empresa de IA? ¿Será una empresa de robótica? ¿Será una empresa de robótica doméstica? ¿Será una empresa de energía? Y luego, poco a poco, descubres esto a medida que avanzas con confianza con una visión. Es interesante observar ese tipo de evolución siempre y cuando esté respaldada por esta confianza.

WALTER: Hay un par de cosas que se requieren para eso. Uno es aventurero. Uno no entra en una habitación oscura sin una linterna y un mapa a menos que seas arriesgado, a menos que seas aventurero. El segundo es tener ciclos cerebrales iterativos en los que puedas procesar información y hacer un ciclo de retroalimentación y hacerlo funcionar. El tercero, y esto es lo que no logramos hacer muchas veces en Estados Unidos y tal vez en todo el mundo, es que cuando uno toma riesgos, debe darse cuenta de que va a hacer estallar las cosas. Los primeros tres cohetes, los cohetes Falcon que fabrica la NASA, explotan. Incluso Starship, tres minutos y medio, pero luego explota la primera vez. Así que creo que Boeing, la NASA y otros ya no están dispuestos a entrar en su cuarto oscuro sin saber exactamente dónde está la salida y el camino iluminado hacia la salida. Y las personas que crearon Estados Unidos cada vez que vinieron, ya sea que el Mayflower sean refugiados de los nazis, asumieron muchos riesgos para llegar aquí. Y ahora creo que tenemos más árbitros que tomadores de riesgos, más abogados y reguladores y otros que dicen que no se puede hacer eso, que es demasiado arriesgado, que personas dispuestas a innovar. Y necesitas ambos. Creo que también tienes razón en que dentro de 50 o 100 años, lo que más recordará a Musk, además de los viajes espaciales, es la IA del mundo real. No sólo Optimus el robot, sino Optimus el robot y el coche autónomo, son más o menos lo mismo. Están usando clústeres de GPU o chips dojo o lo que sea para procesar datos del mundo real. Todos estábamos, y usted lo hizo en su podcast, muy entusiasmados con el modelo de lenguaje grande y la IA de texto predictivo generativo. Eso está bien, especialmente si quieres charlar con tu chatbot. Pero el Santo Grial es la inteligencia artificial general. Y la parte difícil de eso es la IA del mundo real. Y ahí es donde creo que Optimus, el robot o el vehículo autónomo, están muy por delante de cualquier otra persona.

LEX: Bueno, me gusta cómo dijiste charla. Yo diría que, tratándose de uno de los mejores escritores de todos los tiempos, es curioso que hables sobre el lenguaje y el dominio de los idiomas como una mera charla. La gente se ha enamorado de algunas palabras. La gente ha entrado en guerras por algunas palabras. Creo que las palabras tienen mucho poder.En realidad, es una pregunta interesante: ¿dónde está la sabiduría del mundo, la sabiduría de la humanidad, en palabras o en imágenes, en lo físico? Realmente no... Está en matemáticas. Tal vez todo se reduzca a matemáticas y al final, este tipo de discusión sobre la realidadLa IA mundial versus el lenguaje son todos iguales, tal vez. Recientemente tuve la oportunidad de pasar bastante tiempo en el metaverso con el Sr. Mark Zuckerberg y vaya que hay realismo allí. Lo que vendrá en el futuro es increíble. Me escanearon en Pittsburgh durante 10 horas. Entré al metaverso y hay una versión virtual de mí y pude pasar el rato con esa versión virtual. ¿Te gustas a ti mismo? Bueno, nunca me agrado a mí mismo, pero era más fácil que me agradara ese otro chico. Eso fue interesante. ¿Le gustas? No parece importarle mucho.

WALTER: Esa es la falta de empatía.

LEX: Me hizo empezar a preguntarme aún más que antes, ¿qué tan importante es esta realidad física? Porque pude verme a mí mismo y a otras personas en ese metaverso, los detalles de la cara, todas las cosas que piensas, tal vez si te miras en el espejo, son imperfecciones, todo ese tipo de cosas. Cuando me miraba a mí mismo y a los demás, todas esas cosas eran hermosas. Fue real, intenso y aterrador porque piensas, bueno, ¿puedes asesinar gente en el metaverso? Porque ¿qué se te permite hacer? Porque puedes replicar muchas de esas cosas y empiezas a preguntarte cuáles son las cosas fundamentales que hacen que valga la pena vivir la vida aquí, tal como la conocemos los humanos.

WALTER: ¿Has hablado con Elon sobre sus puntos de vista sobre lo que significa vivir? en una simulación puede ser y ¿cómo sabrías si eso es cierto?

LEX: Sí, hay una constante sensación alegre, pero también seria, de que todo esto es un poco como un juego.

WALTER: Una de mis teorías sobre Elon, una teoría menor, es que leía la Guía del autoestopista galáctico con demasiada frecuencia. Como saben, hay una escena allí que dice que existe una teoría sobre el universo de que si alguien alguna vez descubre los secretos de los significados del universo, será reemplazado por un universo aún más complejo. Luego, la siguiente línea que escribe Douglas Adams es que hay otra teoría de que esto ya sucedió. No estoy tratando de entender eso, pero sé que Elon Musk lo intenta. Hay algo de humor en eso. Hay un enorme humor en La guía del autoestopista. Realmente creo que eso ayudó a Musk a salir del período más oscuro de sus períodos para tener la sensación de diversión de descubrir de qué se trata la vida.

LEX: Me pregunto si hay un lado más pequeño que podríamos decir, simplemente por haber conseguido conocer muy bien a Elon, la tontería, la voluntad de involucrarse en lo absurdo de todo y divertirse. ¿Qué es eso? ¿Es solo una peculiaridad de la personalidad o es un aspecto fundamental de un ser humano que dirige más de seis empresas?

WALTER: Bueno, es una válvula de alivio como los videojuegos, la politopía y Elden Ring, una válvula de escape para a él. Tiene un sentido del humor explosivo, como sabes. Lo extraño es cuando hace la transición abrupta del modo demonio oscuro y estás en la sala de conferencias y él realmente se enoja por algo. No solo hay vibraciones oscuras, sino que también emanan palabras oscuras y él dice, tu renuncia será aceptada si mueres, etc. Entonces algo aparece y saca su teléfono y muestra una parodia de Bonnie Pythons como la Escuela de paseos tontos o fuera quien fuera John Cleese. Empieza a reírse de nuevo y las cosas se rompen. Es casi como si tuviera diferentes modos, la emulación del modo humano, el modo de ingeniería, el modo oscuro y demoníaco, y ciertamente está el modo tonto y vertiginoso.

LEX: Sí, en realidad has abierto el libro de Elon con citas de Elon y de Steve Jobs. Entonces, la cita de Elon es, a cualquiera a quien haya ofendido, solo quiero decirle, esto está en SNL, solo quiero decir, reinventé los autos eléctricos y estoy enviando gente a Marte en un cohete. ¿También pensaste que iba a ser un tipo tranquilo y normal? Y luego, la cita de Steve Jobs, por supuesto, es que las personas que están lo suficientemente locas como para pensar que pueden cambiar el mundo son las que lo hacen. Entonces, ¿cuál crees que es el papel de la vieja locura y el genio? ¿Cuál crees que es el papel de la locura en esto?

WALTER: Bueno, antes que nada, estipulemos ambos que Musk está loco a veces. Quiero decir, y luego averigüemos, y trato de hacerlo a través de la narración, no a través de la hifilia y la predicación, dónde funciona esa locura. Cuéntame una historia, cuéntame una anécdota, dime dónde está loco. Y el ejemplo casi final, AI, pero él dispara Starship por primera vez, entre una cuenta regresiva abortada y el disparo, va a Miami a una conferencia de ventas de publicidad y conoce a Linda Iaccarino por primera vez, la convierte en directora ejecutiva. . Quiero decir, hay mucha impulsividad en él. Luego vuela de regreso, lanzan Starship y te das cuenta de que hay un impulso y hay demonios y también hay locura. Y a veces quieres sacarlos. Quieres quitarle el teléfono para que no tuitee a las 3 a.m.Quieres decir, deja de estar tan loco. Pero luego te das cuenta de que hay una maravillosa línea de Shakespeare en Medida por medida al final. Dice que incluso los mejores se moldean a partir de defectos. Y entoncestomas los defectos de Musk, por ejemplo, que incluyen una locura que puede ser entrañable, pero también una locura que es como una maldita locura, así como este modo de conducción y demonio. No sé si puedes sacar ese hilo de la tela y la tela queda entera.

LEX: Me pregunto, a veces me entristece que vivamos en una sociedad que no celebra ni lo más oscuro. Hay aspectos de locura al reconocer que todo viene en un solo paquete. Es el hombre en la arena versus el crítico.

WALTER: Y el hombre en la arena versus el regulador para hacerlo más prosaico.

LEX: Bueno, déjame preguntarte no solo sobre el Loco, pero la crueldad. Así que has escrito un informe sobre Steve Jobs. ¿Te dijeron que la gran pregunta que debías hacerte era si tenía que ser tan malo, tan rudo y cruel, tan adicto al drama? ¿Cuál es esta respuesta para Steve Jobs? ¿Tenía que ser tan cruel?

WALTER: Para Jobs, le pregunté Fue al final de mi informe, porque eso es lo que dijo al principio, estamos haciendo el lanzamiento de, creo, el iPad. 2, puede que lo haya sido. Steve está demacrado porque ha estado enfermo. Y entonces le digo a Was, ¿cuál es la respuesta a tu pregunta? Y dijo, bueno, si yo hubiera estado dirigiendo Apple, habría sido más amable con todos. Todo el mundo se quedó estancado. Hemos sido como una familia. Y luego no sé si sabes que Was, es como un osito de peluche. Hizo una pausa, sonrió y dijo, pero si hubiera estado ejecutando Apple, no creo que hubiéramos hecho Macintosh o iPhone. Así que sí, a veces hay que ser rudo. Y Jobs dijo lo mismo que Must me dijo a mí, es decir, que a la gente como tú le encanta usar guantes de terciopelo. Ahora, no sé si he usado guantes de terciopelo a menudo, pero te gusta agradarle a la gente, te gusta hablar dulcemente, endulzar las cosas. Él dice: Soy sólo un niño de clase trabajadora y no tengo ese lujo. Si algo apesta, tengo que decírselo a la gente. O tengo un equipo de jugadores B. Bueno, Musk también es así. Y volvemos a lo que dije antes, que es, sí, probablemente usaría guantes de terciopelo si pudiera encontrarlos en mi mercería. Y trato de endulzar las cosas. Pero cuando dirigía CNN, era necesario remodelarla. Era necesario romperlo. Necesitaba volar ciertas cosas. Y no lo hice. Fue muy malo para mí, pero me hizo darme cuenta, está bien, escribiré sobre las personas que pueden hacerlo.

LEX: Bueno, eso de decir, creo que probablemente ambos, pero Elon ciertamente, decir cosas como esa es la cosa más estúpida que he escuchado en mi vida.

WALTER: Por cierto, escuché a Jeff Bezos decir eso. He oído a Bill Gates decir eso. He oído a Steve Jobs decirlo. Escuché a Steve Jobs decir eso sobre un batido. Lo estaban convirtiendo en una fruta entera o algo así. Usan la palabra estúpido muy a menudo.

LEX: ¿Y sabes quién más la usó?

WALTER: Errol Musk. Siguió horneando. Elon se paró frente a él y le dijo: "Eso es lo más estúpido". Eres la persona más estúpida. Nunca llegarás a nada. No sé. Como dijo John McNeil, el presidente de Tesla, ¿hay que ser así? Probablemente no. Hay muchas personas exitosas que son mucho más amables, pero a veces es necesario ser mucho más brutalmente honesto, diría yo, que personas como quienes lo son cuando reciben los trofeos de jefe del año.

LEX: Bueno, como Dijiste que este tipo de idea también envió una señal. Esta idea de Steve Jobs de ocho jugadores envió una señal a todos. Fue una especie de estímulo para la gente que está ahí.

WALTER: Correcto. Y eso le pasó a Twitter. Cuando fuimos a la sede de Twitter el día antes de la adquisición, Andrew y James, sus dos primos jóvenes y otras personas del equipo de piloto automático estaban repasando líneas de código. Y el propio Musk estaba sentado allí con una computadora portátil en el segundo piso del edificio, mirando las líneas de código escritas por los ingenieros de Twitter. Y decidieron que iban a despedir al 85 % de ellos porque tenían que estar todos dentro. Y esta noción de seguridad psicológica y días libres mentales y de trabajar de forma remota, dijo, tampoco. Y luego surgió, en realidad uno de los suyos, creo que fue uno de los primos o tal vez a Ross Nordine se le ocurrió la idea de no ser tan rudos y simplemente despedir a toda esta gente. Preguntémosles, ¿de verdad quieres participar? Porque esto va a ser duro. Va a ser intenso. Puedes elegir, pero antes de la medianoche de hoy queremos que marques la casilla. Soy incondicional, estaré allí en persona, trabajaré, ya sabes, o eso no es para mí. Tengo una familia, tengo equilibrio laboral y tienes diferentes tipos de personas en diferentes etapas de sus vidas. Yo era un poco más duro y estaba totalmente involucrado cuando tenía veintitantos años y cuando tenía, ya sabes, cincuenta y tantos.

LEX: Sí.Y escribes sobre esta idea tan bonita, que hay dos bandos, y descubres que yo no, me pregunto hasta qué punto es cierto. Suena cierto. Puedes preguntarle a la gente: ¿en qué campo estás? ¿Eres el tipo de persona que valoraellos mismos, que disfrutan de quedarse despiertos hasta las 2 a.m. programación o lo que sea? ¿O ves el valor de las comillas, ya sabes, sobre la vida, el equilibrio entre vida laboral y personal, todo este tipo de cosas? Y es interesante. Quiero decir, como se podría hacer, las personas probablemente se dividen en diferentes etapas de la vida y simplemente les puedes preguntar y tiene sentido que ciertas empresas en ciertas etapas de su desarrollo digan que solo queremos gente incondicional.

WALTER: O ciertos equipos. Ni siquiera tiene que ser toda una empresa. Y tienes razón. Se remonta a lo que estaba diciendo sobre el gobierno. El primer secreto es conocerte a ti mismo, obviamente viene de Platón y todo viene de Platón y Sócrates, pero, y decidir en esta etapa de mi vida. ¿Quiero ser un hackathon toda la noche y cambiar el mundo? ¿O quiero aportar sabiduría y estabilidad, pero también tener equilibrio? Creo que es bueno tener diferentes empresas con diferentes estilos. El problema era que Twitter estaba casi en un extremo con los estudios de yoga y los días libres de salud mental y consagrando la seguridad psicológica como uno de los mantras de que las personas nunca deberían sentirse amenazadas psicológicamente. Y él, recuerdo la risa amarga que soltaba al seguir escuchando esa palabra. Él dijo, no, me gustan las palabras duro. Me gusta la intensidad. Me gusta un intenso sentido de urgencia como nuestro principio operativo. Bueno, sí, también hay gente así.

LEX: Y así saber quién eres y qué tipo de equipo quieres formar. Contra la seguridad psicológica y demasiados pájaros por todas partes. Oh, sí.

WALTER: Muchas veces Musk hacía cosas y yo decía: ¿qué diablos? Y entre ellos estaba cambiar el nombre de Twitter y deshacerse de los pájaros. Le dije: Oye, se ha invertido mucho en esa marca. Pero cuando lo miré, pensó, está bien, estos dulces pajaritos alegres twitteando en nombre de Twitter, no es algo duro. No es intenso. Y así, para bien o para mal, creo que está llevando sus actos al ámbito incondicional con personas que publican cosas incondicionales, con personas con puntos de vista incondicionales. No es un parque de juegos educado para la élite ungida de cuadros azules. Y pensé, está bien, esto va a ser malo. Todo se va a desmoronar. Bueno, ha tenido problemas, pero su intensa intensidad también ha significado que están sucediendo cosas nuevas allí. Así que es muy de Elon Musk que no le guste esta dulzura de los pájaros cantando, twitteando y diciendo: quiero algo más duro.

LEX: Como usted escribió al referirse al anterior CEO de Twitter, Elon dijo que Twitter necesita un dragón que escupe fuego. Creo que esta es una buena oportunidad para repasar algunos de los momentos memorables de la saga de Twitter, como usted ha escrito extensamente en su libro, desde los primeros días de considerar la adquisición hasta cómo se desarrolló hasta los detalles de, por ejemplo. mencionaste, los equipos de ingeniería.

WALTER: Bueno, a principios de 2022, estaba en lo alto, pero como decimos, es un adicto al drama. No le gusta el fantasma. Y Tesla vendió un millón de vehículos. Creo que 33 propulsores, Falcon 9, han sido disparados y aterrizados de forma segura en los últimos meses. Y era la persona más rica del mundo y la persona del año. Y, sin embargo, había dicho, todavía quiero volver a poner todas mis fichas sobre la mesa. Quiero seguir arriesgándome. No quiero saborear las cosas. Había vendido todas sus casas. Entonces comienza a comprar acciones de Twitter en secreto. Enero, febrero y marzo se hacen públicos en un momento determinado. No sé si debería declararlo. Y estábamos aquí en Austin en Gigafactory en el entresuelo. Y él estaba tratando de descubrir, bueno, ¿adónde voy desde aquí? Y en ese momento, a principios de abril, le iban a ofrecer un puesto en la junta directiva y él iba a llegar a un acuerdo de suspensión y detenerlo en el 10 % o algo así. Ahora recuerda, estábamos parados. Era Luke Nozick, a quien conoces bien, Ken Halry, algunos de sus amigos en ese entresuelo de aquí. Y durante toda la tarde y hasta bien entrada la noche, durante la cena, pensamos: ¿deberíamos hacer esto? Y no dije nada. Soy sólo el observador. Pero todos los demás dicen, perdón, ¿por qué quieres ser dueño de Twitter? Y Griffin, su hijo, se unió a la cena. Y May, por alguna razón, estaba en la ciudad. Y como todo el mundo dice, no, no usamos Twitter. ¿Por qué harías eso? Y May dijo, bueno, uso Twitter. Y es casi como, está bien, la demografía es gente de mi edad o la edad de May. Y entonces parecía que no iba a seguir adelante. Le ofrecieron un puesto en la junta directiva. Y luego se fue a Hawaii, a la casa de Larry Ellison, que a veces usa. Estaba con una amiga, Angela Bassett, una actriz. Y en lugar de disfrutar de tres días de vacaciones, simplemente se sobrealimentó y comenzó a enviar mensajes de texto, incluido el del dragón que escupe fuego. Creo que usó esa frase varias veces de que Parag no era la persona que iba a llevar Twitter a un nuevo nivel.Y luego, cuando llega a Vancouver, donde Grimes se encuentra con él, se quedan despiertos toda la noche jugando a Elden Ring. Estaba dando una charla TED. YLuego, a las 5:30, termina de jugar a Elden Ring y envía que he hecho una oferta. Incluso cuando regresa, la gente intenta intervenir y decir: disculpe, ¿por qué lo hace? Y así fue un período difícil entre finales de abril y octubre cuando se cerró el trato. Y la gente me pregunta todo el tiempo, bueno, ¿quería salir del trato? Dije, ¿de qué Elon estás hablando y a qué hora del día? Porque habrá momentos en la mañana en los que dirá, oh, el tribunal de Delaware me obligará a hacerlo. Es horrible. Habla con sus abogados. Puedes ganar este caso. Sácame de esto. Se reunió aquí en Austin con tres o cuatro banqueros de inversión: Blair Efron de Centerview y Bob Steele de Pirella Weinberg. Y le ofrecieron opciones. ¿Quieres salir? ¿Quieres quedarte en? ¿Quieres reducir el precio? Y creo que era voluble. Hubo momentos en que me enviaba mensajes de texto o me decía: esto va a ser genial. Será el acelerador para hacer x .com como pensábamos hace 20 años. Y no es hasta que finalmente le dicen a principios de octubre, justo cuando Optimus el robot se presenta en California, que el abogado dice: "Probablemente no ganarás este caso, pero será mejor que sigas adelante con el trato". . Y para entonces no sólo ha hecho las paces con ello, sino que en ese momento está algo feliz con ello. Al final, el trato se cerrará, creo, un viernes por la mañana. Lo tengo en el libro. Y estamos allí el jueves y él está deambulando mirando las camisetas de permanencia despierta y la jerga de seguridad psicológica que todos están usando. Y él, sus abogados y banqueros idearon un plan para lograr un cierre repentino. Y la razón de esto fue que si cierran el trato después de que los mercados hayan cerrado por el día, y él podría enviar una carta a Parag y a otros dos, despidiéndolos con justa causa, y esto será algo que los tribunales tendrán que resolver. , entonces podría ahorrar unos 200 millones. Y fue tanto el dinero, pero para él una cuestión, no digo de principios, sino de, oye, me engañaron con los números. Me obligaron a hacerlo. Así que voy a probar esta maniobra de jujitsu y podré sacarles algo de dinero. Luego, cuando él toma el control, es una escena bastante salvaje. Él tratando de decidir en tres rondas diferentes cómo reducir el personal al 15 % de lo que era. Él decidió en Nochebuena, después de haber estado en una reunión donde le dijeron que no podemos deshacernos de esa granja de servidores de Sacramento porque necesita una redundancia. Él dice, no, no lo es. Y está volando aquí a Austin. Y el joven James dice, ¿por qué no lo hacemos nosotros mismos? Da la vuelta al avión, aterrizan en Sacramento y él mismo los saca. Así que fue un período maníaco.

LEX: También deberíamos decir que debajo de eso, había un deseo o una consideración constante de tal vez iniciar una nueva empresa para construir una empresa de redes sociales desde cero.

WALTER: Bueno, Kimball quería hacer eso. Y Kimball aquí en un maravilloso restaurante en Austin, durante el almuerzo, dice, oye, ¿por qué estás comprando Twitter? Comencemos uno desde cero y hagámoslo en blockchain. Ahora le llevó un tiempo, y se puede argumentar de un modo u otro, llegar a la conclusión de que la cadena de bloques no era lo suficientemente rápida ni tenía suficiente tiempo de respuesta para poder manejar mil millones de tweets en aproximadamente un día. Se enoja cuando siguen intentando que hable con Sam Bankman Fried, quien intenta decir: Invertiré, pero tenemos que hacerlo en la cadena de bloques. Kimball todavía está a favor de iniciar uno nuevo y hacerlo en base a blockchain. En retrospectiva, creo que habría sido mejor iniciar una nueva empresa de medios. No habría tenido el bagaje o el legado que está rompiendo ahora al romper la forma en que había sido Twitter. Pero es difícil tener millones y millones, cientos de millones de usuarios verdaderos, no sólo trolls, y empezar desde cero como otros han descubierto, como Macedon y Blue Sky y los hilos y ningún hilo tenía siquiera una base. Entonces habría sido difícil.

LEX: Sí. Y para hacer eso de la forma en que lo hizo, se requiere otra parte sobre la que escribes con los tres mosqueteros y toda la ingeniería, el despido y la contratación de ingenieros para tratar de ser duros. Hay muchas preguntas interesantes que hacer, pero en el nivel alto, ¿puedes comentar sobre esa parte de la saga, que consiste en traer a los ingenieros y ver qué podemos hacer aquí?

WALTER: Correcto. Llamó a los ingenieros y calculó que la cantidad de personas que hacían Tesla, el piloto automático y todo el software era aproximadamente una décima parte de lo que hacía el software para Twitter. Y él dijo, este no puede ser el caso. Y disparó al 85 % en tres rondas diferentes. El primero fue simplemente despedir a la gente porque miraron la codificación y tenían un equipo de personas del piloto automático de Tesla calificando los códigos de todo lo que se escribió durante el último año.Luego despidió a personas que no parecían totalmente comprometidas o leales. Y luego otra ronda de despidos. Entonces, en cada paso del camino,casi todos dijeron, ya es suficiente. Va a destruir cosas. Desde Alex Spiro, su abogado hasta Jared Burchill, dice, espera, espera, espera. E incluso Andrew y James, los primos jóvenes que tienen la tarea de hacer una lista y determinar quién es bueno o malo, dicen que ya hemos hecho suficiente. Estaremos en verdaderos problemas. Y en parte tenían razón. Quiero decir, hubo alguna degradación del servicio, pero no tanto como la mitad de los servicios que uso la mitad del tiempo. Y me despierto cada mañana, abro la aplicación y, bueno, sigo ahí. ¿Qué piensas?

LEX: ¿Fue demasiado?

WALTER: Creo que tiene un algoritmo que mencionamos anteriormente que comienza cuestionando cada requisito, pero depende de su eliminación. , borrar, borrar, borrar cada parte. Y luego, un corolario de esto es que si no terminas agregando el 20% de lo que eliminaste, entonces no eliminaste lo suficiente en la primera ronda porque eras demasiado tímido. Bueno, entonces me preguntaste, ¿se excedió? Probablemente se excedió en un 20%, que es su fórmula. Y probablemente ahora estén tratando de contratar gente para que las cosas sigan funcionando.

LEX: Pero envía una fuerte señal a las personas que son contratadas nuevamente o a las personas que todavía están allí.

WALTER : La idea de abril. Sí. Y lo que Steve Jobs y muchos otros grandes líderes sintieron, y ciertamente Bezos y ciertamente en los primeros días de Microsoft, Bill Gates, fue incondicional, solo jugadores A.

LEX: Entonces, ¿cuánto diría usted del éxito de Elon? ? El éxito de Elon y Steve Jobs es la contratación y gestión de grandes equipos.

WALTER: Cuando en un momento le pregunté a Steve Jobs, ¿cuál fue el mejor producto que jamás haya creado? Pensé que diría tal vez Macintosh o tal vez iPhone. Dijo que no, esos productos son duros. Lo mejor que he creado fue el equipo que fabricó esos productos. Y eso es lo difícil, crear un equipo. Y lo hizo, desde Johnny Ive hasta Tim Cook, Eddie Q y Phil Schiller. Elon ha hecho un buen trabajo atrayendo gente. Gwen Shotwell, obviamente, Linda Iaccarino, ella puede navegar a través de las crisis actuales. Ciertamente personas estelares en SpaceX como Mark Jankos. Y luego en Tesla como Drew Bacalhino, Lars Marravey, Tom Zhu y muchos otros. No es tanto un colaborador de equipo como, por ejemplo, Benjamin Franklin, quien, por cierto, es el mejor equipo jamás creado, que son los fundadores. Y tenías que tener gente realmente inteligente como Jefferson y Madison y gente realmente apasionada como John Adams y su primo Samuel y realmente un tipo de gran rectitud como Washington. Pero también se necesitaba un Ben Franklin que pudiera reunir a todos y formar un equipo con ellos y lograr que se comprometieran entre sí. Musk es un imán para talentos increíbles.

LEX: Imán, interesante. Pero existen prioridades de contratación basadas en la excelencia, la confiabilidad y el impulso. Estas son cosas que has descrito a lo largo del libro. Quiero decir, hay un conjunto de ideas bastante concreto y riguroso en base al cual se realiza la contratación.

WALTER: Oh, sí. Y tiene un sentido muy bueno, ágil e intuitivo con solo mirar a las personas que podrían, quiero decir, no mirarlas, sino estudiarlas, que podrían ser buenas. Una de sus formas de operar es lo que él llama reunión de salto de nivel. Y tomemos algo muy específico como el motor Raptor, que impulsa el Starship. Y no iba bien. Parecía un arbusto de espagueti e iba a ser difícil de fabricar. Y se deshizo de las personas que estaban al frente de ese equipo. Y recuerdo que pasó un par de meses haciendo lo que él llama saltar nivel, lo que significa que en lugar de reunirse con sus subordinados directos en el equipo Raptor, se reuniría con la gente de un nivel inferior a ellos. Y entonces se saltaría un nivel y se reuniría con ellos. Y él dijo, esto es, y sólo les pregunto qué están haciendo. Y los acosé con preguntas. Y él dijo, y así es como descubro quién va a surgir. Dijo que era particularmente difícil. Estuve sentado en esas reuniones porque la gente llevaba máscaras. Fue durante el apogeo de COVID. Y dijo que eso lo hizo un poco más difícil porque tiene que recibir información. Pero lo vi cuando era niño, Dreadlocks llamado Jacob McKenzie, él está en el libro, está sentado allí y es un poco como tú. La mentalidad de ingeniería habla en un tono un poco monótono. Musk hacía una pregunta y él daba una respuesta, y la respuesta era muy sencilla y no se inquietaba. Él era así. Y Musk dijo que un día lo llamó a las 3 a.m. Bueno, no diré a las 3 a. m., pero después de medianoche dije, ¿todavía estás por aquí? Y Jake dijo, sí, todavía estoy en el trabajo. Y él dijo: Está bien, te pondré a cargo del equipo de creación de Raptor. Y eso fue como una gran sorpresa. Pero Jacob McKenzie ahora obtuvo una versión de Raptor y cuando lo construyen al menos una por semana, son bastante impresionantes.Y ahí es donde reside su talento, el talento de Musk para encontrar a la persona adecuada y promocionarla. Ahí es donde está.

LEX: Y promocionarlo de una manera en la que es como si aquí estuviera la pelota, aquí.catch.

WALTER: Sí, sí.

LEX: Y sigues adelante. He interactuado con bastantes personas, incluso solo del Modelo X, en todo momento, donde la gente, ya sabes, en el papel no parece que lo fueran. capaz de ejecutar la cosa y lo ejecutan con gran éxito.

WALTER: Y lo hace mal. A veces ha tenido un historial horrible con la división de techos solares. Un tipo maravilloso llamado Brian Dow. Realmente me gustó. Y cuando estaban ampliando la fábrica de baterías en Nevada, Musk se deshizo de dos o tres personas y ahí está Brian Dow. Puedo hacer, puedo hacer, puedo hacer. Se queda despierto toda la noche, lo ascienden y lo dirige. Y finalmente Musk pasa por dos o tres personas que dirigen la división de techos solares. Finalmente llama a Brian Dow. Estaba sentado en la casa de Musk en Boca Chica, ese pequeño y diminuto dormitorio que tiene. Y le ofrece a Brian Dow el trabajo de administrar el techo solar. Y ya sabes, Brian, está bien, puedo hacerlo, puedo hacerlo. Y dos o tres veces Musk insistió en que instalaran un techo solar en una de esas casas de Boca Chica. Este es este pequeño pueblo en el extremo sur de Texas. Y a altas horas de la noche, quiero decir, tendría que subir a la parte superior del techo con estas escaleras y pararme en este techo puntiagudo mientras Musk dice: ¿Por qué necesitamos cuatro tornillos para colocar esta única pata? Y Brian estaba sudando y haciendo de todo. Pero luego de un par de meses las cosas no iban bien y boom, Musk simplemente lo despidió. Así que siempre trato de aprender, ¿qué es lo que hace que aquellos que se quedan prosperen?

LEX: ¿Cuál es la lección allí? ¿Qué piensas?

WALTER: Bueno, creo que es autoconocimiento como Andy Krebs u otros. Dicen que soy duro. Tengo muchas ganas de llevar un cohete a Marte y eso es más importante que cualquier otra cosa. Una de las personas, creo que es Tim Zeman, espero que cuando escuche esto, le encuentre a la persona adecuada, que se tomó su tiempo. Estaba funcionando para el piloto automático de Tesla y era muy intenso. Se tomó un tiempo libre y luego se fue a otra empresa. Dijo: Estaba agotado en Tesla, pero luego me aburría en el siguiente lugar. Entonces llamé, creo que era Ashok de Tesla y dije: ¿Puedo volver? Dijo, seguro. Dijo: Aprendí sobre mí mismo. Prefiero estar agotado que aburrido.

LEX: Esa es una buena frase. ¿Puedes detenerte en uno de los tres que te parecen interesantes en términos de excelencia, confiabilidad y empuje? ¿Cuál crees que es el más importante y el más difícil de alcanzar? La confiabilidad es interesante. ¿Montas o mueres?

WALTER: Sí. Creo que, especialmente cuando llegó el momento de apoderarse de Twitter, pensó que la mitad de la gente era desleal y estaba equivocado. Alrededor de dos tercios fueron desleales, no sólo la mitad. ¿Cómo los eliminamos? Hizo algo y formó el pelotón de fusilamiento, yo lo llamo, o los Mosqueteros, creo que es mi apodo para ellos, que son los primos jóvenes y dos o tres personas más. Les hizo mirar los mensajes de Slack que estas personas habían publicado. Todos en Twitter habían publicado y revisado cientos de mensajes de Slack. Si alguien publicara en el Slack interno, ese idiota, Elon Musk, va a tomar el control y me temo que es un maníaco o algo así, estaría en la lista porque quiere lealtad total. No miraron los mensajes privados de Slack y supongo que las personas que publican en un tablero corporativo de Slack deben saber que su empresa puede verlos. Pero eso es más de lo que yo habría hecho o lo que la mayoría de la gente habría hecho. Eso fue para descubrir quién es profundamente comprometido y leal. Creo que ese fue principalmente el caso en Twitter. No se sienta en SpaceX diciendo quién me es leal. En otros lugares, es excelencia, pero eso es un hecho. Todo el mundo es como un Marc Jancosa, sólo que es inteligente. Se trata de ser incondicional y comprometido, especialmente si tienes que mudarte a esta pequeña ciudad en el extremo sur de Texas llamada Boca Chica, tienes que estar comprometido.

LEX: Sí. Ese es el impulso, la última pieza. Tú, en términos de colaboración, uno de los grandes equipos de todos los tiempos, Ben Franklin. Me gusta eso. Pensé que eran los Beatles, pero Ben Franklin es bastante bueno. Ah, no, no, no. Lo siento.

WALTER: Sí. Perdón por ofenderte tanto. Lea la Constitución y lea Abbey Road. Mire Abbey Road. Ambos son buenos, pero están en una liga diferente.

LEX: Sí, una liga diferente. Una de las muchas cosas que me vienen a la mente con Ben Franklin es una increíble gestión del tiempo. ¿Hay algo que puedas decir sobre Ben Franklin y Steve Jobs? Creo que lo interesante de Elon es que él, mientras escribes, dirige seis empresas, depende de lo sorprendente que seas porque es algo propio, no lo sé. ¿Qué puedes decir sobre estas personas en términos de gestión del tiempo?

WALTER: Bueno, Musk está en una liga propia en la forma en que lo hace.En primer lugar, Steve Jobs tuvo que dirigir Pixar y Apple durante un tiempo, pero Musk, cada dos horas, cambia su forma de pensar entre cómo implantar el chip de enlace neuronal y cuál será el robot que lo implanta.cómo se ve el cerebro y qué tan rápido podemos hacer que se mueva, y luego el escudo térmico en el Raptor o el cambio a la imitación humana, el aprendizaje automático y la conducción autónoma total. La noche en que la junta de Twitter aceptó el acuerdo, esto es enorme en todo el mundo. Estoy seguro de que lo recuerdas, como Musk compra Twitter. No fue cuando se cerró el trato. Fue cuando Twitter aceptó su oferta. Pensé, está bien, pero luego fue a Boca Chica, al sur de Texas, y pasó un tiempo arreglando, si no recuerdo mal, una válvula en el motor Raptor que tenía un problema de fuga de metano, y cuáles eran las posibles formas de solucionarlo. Supongo que todos los ingenieros en esa sala están pensando en que este tipo acaba de comprar Twitter, deberíamos decir algo, y luego va con Kimball a un local al borde de la carretera en Brownsville y simplemente se sienta al frente y escucha música sin que nadie se dé cuenta. realmente él estando allí. Una de las cosas que, en cierto modo, es una de sus fortalezas y debilidades es que, en un día determinado, se concentra en serie, secuencialmente, en muchas cosas diferentes. Se preocupará por subir videos a x .com o al sistema de pago, y luego inmediatamente cambiará a algún problema con la FAA otorgando un permiso para Starship o cómo lidiar con Starlink y la CIA. Cuando está concentrado en cualquiera de estas cosas, no puedes distraerlo. No es que él también esté pensando en negociar con Starlink, pero también tengo que preocuparme por la decisión de Tesla sobre el nuevo auto de $25,000. Ahora, entre estas sesiones, procesará información y luego se desahogará. Para bien o para mal, se desahoga interpretando a un amigo en politopía o lanzando algunos tweets, lo que a menudo no es algo saludable, pero es una liberación para él. Una vez dije que era un gran multitarea y eso fue un error. La gente me corrigió. Es un tasker en serie, lo que significa que se concentra intensamente en una tarea durante una hora, casi tiene un, cómo lo llaman, en restaurantes donde te dan un limpiador del paladar. Hace un poco de limpieza del paladar con politopía y luego se concentra en la siguiente tarea.

LEX: ¿Hay alguna sabiduría sobre la gestión del tiempo que puedas extraer de eso?

WALTER: Hay algunas cosas que estas personas lo hacen y tú dices, está bien, puedo ser así. Puedo tener más curiosidad. Puedo cuestionar todas las reglas y regulaciones. Simplemente no creo que nadie deba intentar emular el estilo de gestión del tiempo de Musk porque se necesita un cierto conjunto de equipos que sepan cómo lidiar con todo lo demás excepto aquello en lo que se está concentrando y una cierta mente que pueda cambiar, al igual que sus estados de ánimo. puede cambiar. Tú y yo pasamos por transiciones y también si estoy pensando en lo que voy a decir en este podcast, también estoy pensando en el correo electrónico que mi hija acaba de enviar sobre una casa que está mirando, y estoy realizando múltiples tareas. . En realidad, él no hace eso. Realiza tareas individuales de forma secuencial con un enfoque intenso.

LEX: No lo sé. Creo que hay sabiduría que sacar de eso. En primer lugar, él me hace sentir así, Ben Franklin, que hay muchas horas en el día. Hay muchos minutos en el día. No hay excusa para no hacer mucho y eso requiere simplemente un enfoque extremo, un enfoque extremo y urgencia.

WALTER: Creo que la urgencia feroz que lo impulsa es importante y, a veces, se intensifica. Como digo, la urgencia feroz de llegar a Marte y un viernes por la noche en la plataforma de lanzamiento en Boca Chica a las 10 p. m., solo hay unas pocas personas trabajando porque es viernes por la noche. Se supone que no se lanzarán hasta dentro de ocho meses. Y ordena un aumento. Él dice: Quiero que mañana haya 200 personas aquí trabajando en esta plataforma. Tenemos que tener un fuerte sentido de urgencia o nunca llegaremos a Marte.

LEX: Ese sentido de urgencia es también una vitalidad que es como realmente asumir la vida plenamente. Quiero decir, para mí, esa es la lección: incluso lo mundano puede estar lleno de esta riqueza justa. Y como si tuvieras que asimilarlo intensamente. Entonces, el cambio permite ese tipo de intensidad porque la mayoría de nosotros no podemos mantener esa intensidad en ninguna tarea durante un período de tiempo prolongado. Quizás eso también sea una lección.

WALTER: Correcto. Y supongo que también se remonta a saber quién eres, lo que significa que hay personas que pueden concentrarse intensamente y hay personas que pueden ver patrones en muchas cosas. Mira, Leonardo da Vinci, no estaba tan concentrado. Se distraía fácilmente. Aplazar. Es por eso que tiene más pinturas inacabadas que terminadas en su canon. Pero su capacidad para ver patrones en la naturaleza y de alguna manera procesar, posponer las cosas y distraerse, eso le ayudó un poco, pero Musk no es así.Y cada pocos meses hay una nueva oleada, no sabes dónde será, pero estarás en techos solares y de repente tendremos una oleada y tiene que haber, ya sabes, una cien techos solares construidos o esto tiene que estar hecho mañana o hacer una cúpula de nave estelar al amanecer y oleaje y hacerlo. Y hay personas que están construidas de esa manera. Es inspirador, pero también permite apreciar, ya sabes, que hay personas quePuede ser realmente bueno, pero también puedes saborear el éxito, saborear el momento, saborear la tranquilidad a veces. El gran defecto de Musk es que no puede saborear el momento ni el éxito. Y esa es la otra cara de la intensidad extrema.

LEX: En Innovators, otro libro tuyo que me encanta, escribes sobre individuos y grupos. Entonces, una de las preguntas que aborda el libro es: ¿son los individuos o los grupos los que cambian el rumbo de la historia?

WALTER: Cuando Henry Kissinger estaba en las misiones del transbordador para Medio Oriente, la paz es el primer libro que alguna vez escribió. Dijo que cuando era profesor en Harvard pensaba que la historia estaba determinada por grandes fuerzas y grupos de personas. Pero cuando lo veo de cerca, veo la diferencia que puede marcar un individuo. Está hablando de Sadat y Golda Meir, probablemente también de él mismo, o al menos en su mente. Y nosotros, los biógrafos, tenemos este sucio secreto que sabemos: distorsionamos un poco la historia al hacer que la narrativa esté demasiado impulsada por un individuo. Pero a veces lo impulsa un individuo. Musk es un caso así. Y a veces, como hice con los Innovadores, hay equipos y personas que se basan entre sí y Gordon Moore y Bob Noyce, luego consiguen a Andy Grove y fabrican el microchip, que luego sale y Wozniak y Jobs lo encuentran en alguna tienda de electrónica y deciden construir Apple. Y por eso a veces hay flujos de fuerzas y grupos de personas. Supongo que me equivoco un poco al observar lo que pueden hacer Steve Jobs, Elon Musk y Albert Einstein. Y también trato de averiguar si no hubieran existido, ¿las fuerzas de la historia y los grupos de personas lo habrían hecho sin ellos? Esa es una buena pregunta histórica para alguien que ama la historia. Y piensa en la relatividad especial, uno de los artículos de 1905. Incluso después de que lo escribe, pasan cuatro años antes de que la gente realmente entienda lo que está diciendo, que no se trata sólo de cómo se observa que el tiempo es relativo, sino que el tiempo en sí es relativo. Y según la teoría general, que hace una década después, no estoy seguro de que la hayamos entendido todavía. ¿Qué tal si nos trasladamos a la era de un iPhone en la que es tan hermoso que no puedes vivir sin mil canciones en tu bolsillo, correo electrónico e Internet en tu bolsillo y un teléfono? Hay muchas personas con muerte cerebral, desde Panasonic hasta Motorola, que no entendieron eso. Y puede que haya pasado un tiempo. Ciertamente creo que es cierto en la era de los vehículos eléctricos. Jim y Ford, todas las grandes personas allí, aplastaron el cerrojo. Y quiero decir que, literalmente, terminaron destrozándolos porque decidieron descontinuarlo. Asimismo, nadie lanzaba cohetes. Nuestro transbordador espacial estuvo a punto de quedar en tierra hace 12 años. Y entonces Musk hace cosas y habrá personas que digan que si leen el libro, verán la historia completa. Pero dicen que no fue Musk quien hizo Tesla, fue Martin Abba Hart o Mark Tarpenning. No no no. Había personas que habían ayudado a crear las estructuras de empresas y otras cosas y todos merecían ser llamados cofundadores. Pero el tipo que realmente nos lleva a un millón de vehículos eléctricos al año es Elon Musk. Y sin él, no creo que... Mire, si alguien dentro de cinco años compra un automóvil que funciona con gasolina, pensaremos que es pintoresco, que es extraño. Quiero decir, de repente hemos cambiado. No lo vamos a hacer. El 90 % de eso es Elon Musk.

LEX: Todos somos mortales. ¿Cuándo y cómo crees que Elon se retirará del horario increíblemente productivo en el que se encuentra ahora?

WALTER: Creo que odiaría jubilarse. Creo que no puede vivir sin la presión, el drama, el sentimiento total. Nunca ha sido nada que pareciera haber pasado por su mente. Nunca ha dicho, tal vez me encanta la casa de Larry Ellison en la playa de Hawaii. Quizás debería dedicar tiempo a hacerlo. En cambio, dice cosas como: Aprendí desde el principio que las vacaciones te matarán. Contrae malaria cuando se va de vacaciones. Es decir, en un momento se va de vacaciones y lo expulsan de PayPal. Y luego va a África y contrae malaria. Él dice, ya he aprendido, las vacaciones te matan. Lección aprendida.

LEX: Bueno, es interesante porque los proyectos son proyectos de más de cien años. Muchos de estos.

WALTER: Una de las cosas raras es verlo pensar increíblemente a largo plazo. Una de las reuniones que tenía cada semana al principio, cuando lo observaba, era la del colonizador de Marte. ¿Y lo hicimos durante una reunión de dos horas sobre cuál sería la estructura de gobierno en Marte? ¿Qué usaría la gente? ¿Cómo funcionarían los robots? ¿Habría democracia o debería haber una forma diferente de gobierno? Estoy sentado ahí diciendo, ¿qué están haciendo? De qué están hablando? Están intentando construir cohetes y todo lo demás. Les preocupa la estructura de gobierno de Marte.Y de la misma manera, cada vez que está en un momento tenso, como si estuviera a punto de lanzar un cohete, comenzará a preguntarle a la gente algo en el futuro, como el nuevo motor principal o algo así. Si vamos a construir eso, ¿tenemossuficientes materiales listos para ordenar o no lo sé, simplemente hará preguntas como cuando está construyendo un taxi robot, el automóvil global, el automóvil global económico de 25.000 dólares. Esa no es una pasión total. Lo convencieron para que hiciera eso. Su pasión son los taxis robot, pero su pasión es ¿cómo vamos a hacer que esta fábrica produzca un millón de automóviles al año? Así que incluso el taxi robot es una visión de mayor alcance. Quiero decir, lo ha estado promocionando desde 2016, pero nosotros no. No hay taxis robot. Quiero decir, Waymo puede estar haciendo un pequeño experimento, pero no se fabrican automóviles sin volante que se apoderen de las carreteras. Sí. Mi punto es que siempre está mirando hacia el futuro.

LEX: Solo espero que haya muchos Da Vinci, Steve Jobs, Einstein y Elon Musk que lleven la llama hacia adelante.

WALTER: Esa es una de las razones por las que escribes libros sobre estas personas, para que si eres una mujer joven en una escuela donde no te dicen que hagas ciencias y lees el descifrador de códigos sobre Jennifer Doudna, dices, está bien. , puedo ser eso. Y cuando dices, oh, tal vez seré un regulador o dices, oh no, tal vez seré la persona que traspasa los límites, que traspasa las líneas, que empuja, como dijo Steve Jobs, a la raza humana.

LEX: Bueno, déjame preguntarte sobre tu mente, tu genio, tu proceso. Te doy dos de tres. Está bien. Cuéntame tu proceso de escribir una biografía. Quiero decir, al máximo. Y no solo escribir una biografía, sino comprender profundamente lo que sus libros han hecho por la historia humana y las ideas más importantes que subyacen a la historia humana. Así que has escrito biografías de individuos, que difícilmente son individuos. Es un panorama realmente grande y complejo. Y biografías de ideas que involucran a individuos.

WALTER: Bueno, para mí el primer paso es tratar de descubrir cómo funciona la mente. ¿Qué lleva a Einstein a dar ese salto para que Elon Musk diga acero inoxidable mientras mira un cohete de fibra de carbono? ¿O cómo se da el salto mental? Porque escribo sobre gente inteligente, pero hay gente inteligente a montones. No suelen ser gran cosa. Hay que ser creativo, imaginativo para pensar diferente, como diría Jobs. Entonces, ¿qué hace que la gente sea creativa? ¿Qué les hace dar saltos imaginativos? Ésa es la pregunta clave que debes hacer. También haces las preguntas como las que hiciste antes, ¿qué es lo que los demonios hacen tintinear en sus cabezas y cómo los aprovechan para convertirlos en impulsos? Entonces miras todo eso y tratas de observar muy cuidadosamente a la persona. Una de las cosas más mundanas que hago es que muchos escritores intentan darte muchas de sus opiniones y predicar o lo que sea. Como dije, este mentor dijo que surgen dos tipos de personas, predicadores, narradores. Sea un narrador de historias. Siempre que intento transmitir un pensamiento, intento encontrar seis palabras mágicas que casi debería haber escrito en una tarjeta pegada sobre mi escritorio: déjame contarte una historia. Entonces, si alguien pregunta cómo descubre Elon Musk el buen talento como lo hizo usted, creo que, bueno, déjeme contarle la historia. Te contaré la historia de Jake McKenzie. O esto no es algo que inventé yo. Aquí es donde lo hace el buen Dios en la Biblia. Quiero decir, tiene la mejor frase inicial de todos los tiempos, ya sabes, al principio, coma, y luego son las historias. Y en segundo lugar, para retomar esa frase principal del principio, hazla cronológica. Todo el mundo en el año 40 de su vida ha crecido desde el año 39 hasta el año 38. Y por eso quieres mostrar cómo las personas evolucionan y crecen. Tuve la mayor de todas las actitudes narrativas de no ficción, Alice Mayhew en Simon Schuster, quien entre otras cosas creó a todos los hombres del presidente con Woodward y Bernstein. Pero tenía una nota que había puesto en los márgenes de mis libros y que significaba todo a su debido tiempo. Manténgalo cronológico. Si es lo suficientemente bueno para la Biblia, es lo suficientemente bueno para ti.

LEX: Interesante. Para mí, es una pequeña nota, pero para ti es extremadamente importante.

WALTER: Porque es el marco de cómo estructura las cosas, pero también de cómo las entiendes, si lo mantienes en orden cronológico. narrativa, entonces estás mostrando cómo una persona ha crecido desde una experiencia de la que has hablado hasta la siguiente. Y ese crecimiento moral, crecimiento creativo, crecimiento basado en la asunción de riesgos, sabiduría, esas son las esencias de la creatividad. Pero no puedes hacerlo. Hay un término, Bildungsroman, que es un libro que transmite una narrativa y cuenta cómo la gente aprende algo. Soy un gran creyente en la narrativa. Si eres académico, a veces no hoy, pero hace 20 o 30 años, había dos cosas que pensabas que eran malas. Una era tener una teoría de la historia de una gran persona en la que decidiste hacer una biografía. Tuve un gran profesor cuando estaba en la universidad. Su nombre era Doris Kearns. Más tarde se casó con Dick Goodwin.Y ella, cuando aspiraba a ser titular en la universidad, escribió una biografía de Lyndon Johnson y el sueño americano. Y le negaron el puesto porque estaba por debajo delDignidad de la academia de escribir la historia a través de una sola persona. Genial. Nos abrió el campo de la biografía a nosotros, los no académicos, empezando por David McCullough, Bob Caro, pero quizá John Meacham y yo pertenezcamos a una nueva generación. Y ciertamente habrá una generación detrás de nosotros. Pero lo segundo además de contarlo a través de la gente, que es que la academia tendía a desdeñar lo que llamaban imponer una narrativa y lo que se convertía en storytelling. Porque eso significaba que estabas dejando cosas fuera y convirtiéndolas en una narrativa. Bueno, así es como formamos nuestra visión del mundo.

LEX: Bueno, déjame hacerte esta pregunta en términos de lograr un entendimiento. ¿Cuánto de esto se trata de observación y cuánto de entrevistas?

WALTER: Sí. Um, y obviamente depende del tema. Quiero decir, con Ben Franklin, todo se basa en archivos y, por supuesto, tenemos 40 volúmenes de cartas. Escribió que eran viejos tiempos en los que cada día escribías 20 cartas. El libro imprescindible se basa mucho más en la observación que casi cualquiera de mis libros, porque se abrió de una manera que me dejó impresionante. Sí. Incluso cuando estaba sentado en una politopía en blanco o furioso con otras personas, ya sabes, me tenía sentado allí mirando. Quiero decir, pasé mucho tiempo con Jennifer a su lado. Fui a su laboratorio y edité un gen humano y, ya sabes, con una pipeta y un tubo de ensayo. Pero yo diría que pasé 30 horas con ella. No puedo contar, ya sabes, cien horas o más simplemente observando la mezquita. Y no estoy seguro de que ningún biógrafo, tal vez desde que Boswell se enfrentó al Dr. Johnson, haya tenido acceso tan cercano, es decir, a cinco pies de distancia en todo momento. Y por eso volveré a lo que dije hace un momento. Intento salirme del camino de la historia. No es sobre mí. No se trata de, trato de decir simplemente, está bien, esto es lo que pasó. Aquí está esta historia. Esto es lo que pasó. Y luego la noche en que entró en Twitter por primera vez y te dejó formar tu propio juicio.

LEX: ¿Qué pasa con las entrevistas? Has tenido muchas conversaciones. Das reconocimiento a las personas con las que has entrevistado. Bueno, primero, tengo que preguntar, como aspirante a entrevistador, ¿cómo?

WALTER: A la gente le encanta hablar. La gente simplemente ama, lo sabes. He tenido 140, tal vez 150 personas, todas están enumeradas al final. Una de las pequeñas cosas que la gente no notará, pero lo diré ahora, es que todas están registradas. Hacer que hablen es fácil. Todos quieren hablar de mezquita. Pero luego, en cierto momento, no pongo citas anónimas en mi libro. Cito cosas. Yo digo, si eres lo suficientemente duro y has pasado por esto, y muchas veces se necesitan dos o tres llamadas de regreso. Alguien me dirá, ay no, no, no, no quiero. Pero creo que es importante saber de dónde vino todo. Y con las mezquitas, tuve eso desde el principio porque era reportero de la revista Time. Había trabajado como reportero del Times-Picayune en Nueva Orleans. El primer día de trabajo tuve que cubrir un asesinato. Llamé para contar la historia desde un teléfono público y mi editor, el editor de la ciudad, dijo, bueno, ¿habló con la familia? Fui, no, Billy. Quiero decir, la familia, la hija acaba de llegar, dijo, vayan a tocar la puerta. Llamé a la puerta. Una hora más tarde, todavía estaban hablando. Estaban sacando su anuario. La primera lección que aprendí es que la gente quiere hablar si estás dispuesto a simplemente escuchar. Y ya sea Henry Kissinger, simplemente presionas el botón y dices Kissinger, y la gente te cuenta las historias. Durante todo el recorrido de Elon Musk, todo el mundo habló. Todos los miembros de su familia, todos los que despidió, todos. Quiero decir, creo que es importante escuchar a la gente. Y la otra cosa que aprendí como reportero, cuando cubría política en New Hampshire y las primeras campañas, lo aprendí de dos o tres grandes reporteros, un tipo llamado David Broder y Tim Russert, el difunto miembro de NBC. Hacen lo que se llama tocar puertas. Simplemente caminas por un barrio, tocas una puerta y preguntas a la gente sobre las elecciones. Pero dijeron, aquí está el secreto. No hagas preguntas capciosas. No tienes ninguna premisa. Sólo diga, oye, estoy tratando de entender esta elección. ¿Qué está sucediendo? ¿Qué opinas? Y luego quédate en silencio. Con Musk, un tercer secreto, lo sabes bien. A veces se quedará en silencio. A veces un minuto, dos minutos, cuatro minutos. No intentes llenar los silencios. Si eres un oyente, tienes que aprender, está bien, no dirá nada durante cuatro minutos. Puedo sobrevivir a él.

LEX: Es difícil. Como humanos, es muy difícil. Respetar el silencio es realmente, muy difícil. Hablando de demonios, cuando hay silencio, todos los demonios aparecen en mi cabeza. El miedo, creo, es que si no digo nada, será aburrido. Y si digo algo, será una estupidez. Y ese es el motor básico que sigue funcionando.No en el podcast, en el podcast, sino también en la interacción humana. Por eso creo que existe esa energía nerviosa al interactuar con la gente.

WALTER: Nunca puedes irte.Está mal quedarse en silencio si no hay nada que decir. No es algo que haya dominado, pero cuando soy reportero intento dominar eso, que es no hacer preguntas complejas. No intervengas. Y cuando alguien no haya respondido completamente la pregunta, no digas, bueno, déjame, ya sabes, simplemente quédate en silencio y luego seguirán hablando.

LEX: Solo dale la oportunidad de seguir hablando. Incluso si ya han terminado, todavía.

WALTER: A veces no te han dado lo suficiente. En lugar de seguir adelante, simplemente asentiré y me mantendré alejado.

LEX: Estás haciendo que parezca simple. ¿Existe algún secreto para lograr que la gente se abra más?

WALTER: Tengo cierta suerte porque, ya sabes, comencé a trabajar para un periódico y la gente en ese entonces quería hablar con el periódico. reportero.

LEX: Pero también tienes una manera de ser. Me siento como si fueras un vaquero en una taberna. Como si simplemente quisieras hablar. Como si hubiera un empate. No sé. No sé qué es. Tal vez sea, no sé si es desarrollador, naces con él, pero hay un, siento como si quisiera contarte una historia de algún tipo.

WALTER: Bien, cuéntame una historia. Un par de cosas. Aprendí a estar más callado. Estoy seguro de que sé cuando era más joven o incluso veré videos míos en, ya sabes, noticias en las que siempre intento hacer una pregunta. Y así aprendes a estar más tranquilo a veces. No lo he dominado. No lo he aprendido lo suficiente. Aprendes a ser curioso por naturaleza. Muchos reporteros hoy en día, cuando hacen una pregunta o intentan jugar al gotcha o intentan obtener una primicia de noticias o intentan, ya sabes, presentar algo que pueda generar una ventaja. Y si realmente tienes curiosidad y realmente quieres saber la respuesta a una pregunta, entonces la gente sabrá que la preguntaste porque quieres la respuesta, no porque estés jugando con ellos.

LEX : Estoy seguro de que algunos de ellos extraoficialmente, algunos de ellos oficialmente, tal vez tuviste, ya sabes, algunas conversaciones increíbles. Iba a decir algunas de las mejores conversaciones de la historia, pero ¿quién sabe? Algunas de las mejores conversaciones de la historia probablemente se produzcan en algún lugar de América del Sur entre dos borrachos que nunca llegamos a escuchar. Entonces no lo sé, no lo sé. Pero, ¿hay algún recurso que puedas ofrecerle a alguien como yo, basándose en lo que has aprendido, sobre cómo tener una buena conversación, especialmente una vez grabada?

WALTER: Bueno, para ser realmente curioso. Quiero decir, cada pregunta que me has hecho es porque creo que realmente quieres saber la respuesta y has hecho tu tarea de ser abierto y no tener una agenda. Quiero decir, todos sufrimos porque hay demasiadas agendas en el mundo hoy.

LEX: Sí. Entonces eso es solo curiosidad genuina, pero, um, hay algo cuando hablas de interacción uno a uno, ya sea Elon o Steve Jobs o hay algo hermoso en la mente de esa persona. Y parece que es posible revelar eso, descubrirlo juntos de manera eficiente. Y ese es el objetivo de una conversación.

WALTER: Bueno, quiero decir, mira, estás entre los mejores podcasters y entrevistadores del mundo hoy en día. Tienes seriedad contigo. Um, Ben Franklin es la persona que me enseñó, quiero decir, leyéndole más sobre conversaciones. Escribió un ensayo maravilloso sobre eso. Incluye el silencio. Uh, pero incluye tratar de hacer preguntas sinceras en lugar de transmitir un punto. Quiero decir, es algo socrático, pero cada vez que él se lo preguntaba, quería iniciar un núcleo de bomberos en Filadelfia. Iría a su grupo al que llamaba club del delantal de cuero y le harían una pregunta. ¿Por qué no lo tenemos? ¿Qué haría falta? ¿Qué sería bueno? Y luego, la segunda parte es asegurarse de escuchar. Y si alguien tiene aunque sea el germen de una idea, hay que darle crédito por ella. Como dijo Joe, ya sabes, el verdadero problema es este, y creo que si estoy en situaciones y me refiero incluso a una cena o algo así, estoy con alguien, por lo general tengo curiosidad y , la conversación continuará, ya sabes, con preguntas. Y supongo que también es porque estoy bastante interesado en lo que hacen los demás, sin importar con quién esté. Y ese es un talento que tienes, que es que eres bastante genuino en tus intereses. Hay personas como Benjamín Franklin, como, diría Charlie Rose, aunque no esté en favor, que están interesados en una gran cantidad de temas. Y creo que eso también ayuda a estar interesado en el baloncesto, la ópera, la física y la metafísica. Uh, ese fue un Ben Franklin, ese fue un truco de Leonardo, que querían saber todo lo que pudieras saber sobre cada tema conocible.

LEX: Pero hay un aspecto diferente de esto, que es, um , que me encantaría saber cómo lo has solucionado o si lo has afrontado, que seguro que estás desarmando.Eh, mira, estoy como, uh, acribillándote con elogios, tratando de atraparte.

WALTER: Ese es un método muy desarmante. Sí. Recientemente hablé con Benjamin y Yahoo. Vamos, vamos a hablarde nuevo. Lamentablemente, debido a la programación y las complejidades, solo tuvimos una hora, lo cual es muy difícil, muy difícil con el político carismático.

LEX: Entiendo esto, pero también es un conversador carismático, lo cual es muy difícil de romper. en una hora. Um, pero hay personas que han levantado muros, ya sea por culpa de los demonios o por, uh, sus políticos. Y entonces tienen agendas y narrativas, etc. Y entonces, para romper esos, me pregunto si hay algún consejo, alguna sabiduría que hayas aprendido sobre cómo, uh, desgastar a través del agua o lo que sea, o cualquier método, los muros que hemos construido. como individuos.

WALTER: Quiero decir, lo llamas desarmar, lo cual no sé si lo soy, pero desarmar básicamente significa que también estás derribando sus escudos. Y ya sabes, cuando la gente tiene un escudo y tratas de brindarles consuelo, no tuve ningún problema con Elon Musk. Quiero decir, fue como desarmarme, y seguí esperando para decir, está bien, no lo hará, tiene un caparazón o no hará eso. Pero él era casi locamente abierto y no parecía querer estar dando vueltas, escondiendo o fingiendo cosas. Um, y he tenido suerte. Doudna era así. Steve Jobs era así, al que hay que dedicarle tiempo también. En otras palabras, no puedes decir, está bien, hay una entrevista de una hora y voy a derribar todos los muros. Es como en tu quinta visita.

LEX: Una de las cosas en mi situación, aprendes que la quinta visita es muy agradable, pero a veces no recibes una quinta visita. A veces es sólo la primera cita. Y, creo que todo se reduce a, y dijimos desarmar, pero hay algo en esta persona en la que confías. Creo que mucho de esto se reduce a confiar de alguna manera profundamente humana. Y creo que con muchas de las personas con las que he hablado, a veces la confianza surge como después de la entrevista, lo cual es muy triste porque es como, oh hombre, nunca he estado en tu situación en la que tengo un espectáculo.

WALTER: Normalmente lo tengo. En segundo lugar, no soy una persona de primera cita. Sí. Sí. Sí. Bueno, ya sabes, pero tengo suerte. Quiero decir, estoy dentro, digo afortunado, pero estoy impreso, ya sabes, la impresión es un medio que tiene miles de años de antigüedad, pero hay quienes nos encantan.

LEX: Bueno , la naturaleza del medio podcast es que soy una chica de una sola noche. Uh, déjame preguntarte sobre la objetividad. Seguiste a Elon y sigues a Steve. Como si fueras, quiero decir, ni siquiera sé si dirías tu amigo, tienes que tener cuidado con palabras así, pero eres, hay una intimidad. Um, ¿y cómo te mantienes objetivo? ¿Quieres ser objetivo mientras cuentas una historia profundamente humana?

WALTER: Sí. Quiero decir, quiero ser honesto, lo cual creo que es similar a ser objetivo. Uh, trato de tener en cuenta ¿para quién escribo? No estoy escribiendo para Elon Musk. Como digo, no le he enviado el libro. No sé si, no creo que lo haya leído todavía. Um, tengo una persona a la que estoy escribiendo para el lector de mente abierta. Y si puedo poner una historia y decir, bueno, eso enojará al sujeto o realmente lo hará feliz. Eso es irrelevante. O trato de hacer de eso una consideración menor. El lector tendrá una mejor comprensión porque he puesto esta historia en el libro.

LEX: Soy un poco romántico. Para mí, incluso su libro de Einstein tenía lecciones sobre romance y relaciones. Oh querido. Entonces, ¿qué importancia tienen las relaciones románticas para el éxito de grandes hombres, grandes mujeres y grandes mentes?

WALTER: Bueno, a veces las personas que afectan el curso de la humanidad tienen mejores relaciones con la humanidad que con los humanos sentados alrededor. a ellos. Einstein tuvo dos relaciones interesantes con sus esposas. Su, ya sabes, Maleva, su primera esposa, fue una caja de resonancia y le ayudó con las matemáticas del trabajo de relatividad especial en particular. Um, pero él no la trató bien. Quiero decir, él, eh, la hizo firmar una carta para que no lo interrumpiera. Ella no lo haría, ya sabes, y finalmente, cuando ella quiso divorciarse, él no podía permitírselo porque todavía era empleado de patentes. Y entonces, le ofreció un trato, que creo que es totalmente increíble. Dijo que uno de estos días uno de esos artículos de 1905 ganará el premio Nobel. Si nos divorciamos, ya sabes, te daré el dinero. Um, eso era mucho dinero en aquel entonces, como un millón de dólares ahora o algo así. Y ella es inteligente. Ella es una científica. Consulta con algunos otros científicos. Y después de aproximadamente una semana acepta la apuesta. ¿Fue hasta qué, 1919 que ganó su premio Nobel? Uh, y ella se queda con todo el dinero. Compra tres edificios de apartamentos en Zurich. Uh, con su segunda esposa, Elsa, era más una sociedad de conveniencia.No era un amor romántico, pero él lo sabía, y eso es lo que a veces la gente necesita en la vida es simplemente una pareja. Quiero decir, alguien que se encargará de las cosas que tú no vas a manejar. Así que supongo que si miras mis libros, no son grandes guías inspiradoras pararelaciones personales.

LEX: Déjame preguntarte sobre el proceso de escritura en sí. Cuando has observado, cuando has escuchado, cuando has recopilado toda la información, ¿qué es... tal vez incluso la tonta pregunta mundana de... qué desayunas antes de empezar a escribir?

WALTER: ¿Cuándo escribes? En primer lugar, el desayuno no es mi comida favorita. Y esa gente que te dice que hay que empezar por un buen desayuno, la miro de reojo. Sí. Uh, y la mañana no es mi parte favorita del día. Entonces escribo de noche y como me encanta la narrativa, es fácil estructurar un libro, es decir, puedo hacer un esquema que si lo imprimiera o tomara notas tendría cien páginas, pero todo está en orden. En otras palabras, si servimos, si hay un hombre en llamas y regresa de Grimes y luego hay un techo solar, y luego hay algo, lo pongo todo en orden día a día como un esquema. Y eso me disciplina cuando empiezo a escribir a seguir el mantra de Alice Mayhew, mi primera editora, que es todo a su debido tiempo. No te adelantes a la historia. No tienes que retroceder. Um, y luego de conseguirlo para que todo sea cronológico, ya sabes, las cosas, entonces tienes que hacer un poco de agrupación. Ya sabes, tienes que decir, está bien, vamos a tomar la decisión de hacer Starship o construir una fábrica en Texas o lo que sea. Y luego a veces tienes el problema organizativo de, sí, y eso nos lleva hasta aquí. ¿Lo mantengo en este o aquel capítulo o espero hasta más tarde cuando esté mejor cronológicamente? Pero son fáciles.

LEX: Bueno, ¿qué pasa con el proceso real de contar la historia?

WALTER: Bueno, ese es el mantra que mencioné antes, que es cada vez que hago una pausa o No sé cómo decir algo, solo digo, déjame contarte una historia. Y luego encuentro la anécdota real, la historia, el relato que engloba lo que intento transmitir. Y luego no digo lo que intento transmitir. No tengo una oración de transición que diga, ya sabes, Elon a veces cambia de opinión con tanta frecuencia que no puede recordar si había cambiado de opinión o, ya sabes, no, no necesitas oraciones de transición. Simplemente dices, está bien, este es el punto que debo señalar a continuación. Y entonces comienzas con una oración que dice, ya sabes, un día de enero en la fábrica en Texas, coma.

LEX: Bueno, una de las cosas que me encantaría pedirte es un consejo. Para mí, para los jóvenes, el primer consejo sería leer biografías en el sentido de que les ayudan a comprender las diferentes formas en que se puede vivir una vida bien vivida. Pero después de haber escrito biografías, de haber estudiado a tantos grandes hombres y mujeres, ¿qué consejo le podrías dar a la gente sobre cómo vivir esta, esta vida?

WALTER: Bueno, sigo volviendo a los clásicos y a Platón. y Aristóteles y Sócrates. Y supongo que es la máxima de Platón, aunque puede que esté citando a Sócrates, de que no vale la pena vivir una vida no examinada. Y vuelve a conocerte a ti mismo, que es que no tienes que descubrir cuál es el gran significado de todo esto, pero sí tienes que descubrir por qué estás haciendo lo que estás haciendo. Y eso requiere algo de lo que no tenía suficiente cuando era joven, que es la autoconciencia y el examen de cada motivo, de todo lo que hago.

LEX: ¿A dónde te lleva el examen? ¿Es un cambio en la trayectoria de la vida?

WALTER: Quiero decir, no es para mí, está bien, ahora he decidido que después de haber sido periodista, me postularé. un grupo de expertos o dirigiré una red o escribiré una biografía. En realidad, es algo que resulta más útil cada hora. ¿Por qué estoy a punto de decirle eso a alguien o por qué voy a hacer este acto en particular? ¿Cuál es mi verdadero motivo aquí? Y también en el sentido más amplio de aprender como lo hice después de un par de años en CNN, mi examen de mi vida es que no soy bueno para dirigir organizaciones complejas. No soy un gran entrenador, si tengo la opción. Prefiero que alguien más tenga que gestionarme a que yo tenga que gestionar a la gente. Pero me tomó un tiempo darme cuenta de eso. Y probablemente era demasiado ambicioso cuando era joven y estaba en la revista Time. Eso fue cuando yo era verde y, oh, bueno, eso fue cuando estaba en mis días de ensalada en verde y juicio. Y fue como perseguir el siguiente nivel en Time Incorporated, cualquiera que fuera. Y entonces, un día cogí el anillo de bronce y me convertí en editor y luego en editor principal. Y después de un tiempo me di cuenta de que no era exactamente para lo que estoy preparado, especialmente cuando me pusieron a cargo de CNN. Quiero decir, casi por definición todos los jóvenes están en sus días de ensalada en verde y juicio. Pero aprendes lo que te motiva.Y luego aprendes a preguntar, ¿pero es eso realmente lo que quiero? ¿Debo tener cuidado con lo que deseo?

LEX: Uno de los grandes exámenes que puedes hacer es el hecho de que tú y todos moriréis algún día. ¿Cuánto alteras, Isaacson? Piensa en la muerte. ¿Tienes miedo?

WALTER: No, y no pienso mucho en eso. pero creo queSobre Steve Jobs, déjenme contarles una historia, que es la maravillosa historia de Steve Jobs, creo que después de que le diagnosticaran, pero antes de que se hiciera pública. Y dio una charla en Stanford, pero otras cosas, en las que dijo que el hecho de que vamos a morir te da enfoque y te da significado. Si vas a vivir, y Elon Musk me lo ha dicho, muchos de los técnicos de Silicon Valley están buscando formas de vivir para siempre. No puedo pensar en nada peor, dice Musk. Leemos el mito de Sísifo y sabemos lo malo que es estar condenado a la vida eterna. Había en la antigua Grecia la persona que caminaba detrás del rey y decía: memento mori, recuerda que vas a morir. Y evitó que la gente perdiera un poco el control. ¿Piensas en el legado? Lo afortunado de ser biógrafo es que sabes cuál es tu legado. Habrá un estante con gente interesante y habrás inspirado a un estudiante de biología de 17 años en algún lugar para que sea el próximo gran bioquímico o alguien que inicie una empresa como Elon Musk. Y en lo que pienso más, no diré en retribuir, es algo muy trillado. Regresé a Nueva Orleans por una razón. En primer lugar, llegó el huracán. Y después de Katrina, me pidieron que fuera vicepresidente de la autoridad de recuperación. Y me di cuenta de que todo lo que tengo a mi favor, todo proviene de esta hermosa joya de ciudad problemática. La maravillosa escuela secundaria a la que asistí, las maravillosas calles donde aprendí a andar en bicicleta y sus desafíos. Nunca voy a resolver desafíos a gran nivel global, pero puedo regresar a casa y decir que parte de mi legado será, traté de devolverlo a mi ciudad natal, incluso enseñando en Tulane, donde no lo hago. No es un favor. Lo disfruto muchísimo, pero es como, está bien, soy parte de una comunidad. Y creo que eso lo perdemos en Estados Unidos porque las personas que se sienten solas lo están porque no son parte de una comunidad. Pero tengo a todos mis hijos de secundaria, amigos, todos todavía están en Nueva Orleans. Tengo mi familia, pero también tengo Tulane, instituciones en Nueva Orleans que han estado ahí desde siempre. Y si puedo involucrarme en ayudar al sistema escolar en Nueva Orleans, en ayudar a los programas de empoderamiento juvenil, en ayudar al centro de innovación en Tulane, incluso estuve en la comisión de planificación de la ciudad, que se preocupa por las ordenanzas de zonificación para alquileres a corto plazo. ya sabes, imagínate. Pero fue como, no, sumergirme en mi comunidad porque mi comunidad fue increíblemente buena al permitirme convertirme en quien me convertí y tiene problemas año tras año, huracán tras huracán, asegurándose de que cada nueva generación pueda ser creativa. Y es una ciudad de creatividad, desde el jazz hasta la comida y la arquitectura. Entonces, cuando pienso en ello, no diré legado, pero ¿qué voy a hacer para retribuirlo? Que es una forma de nivel inferior de decir legado. Lo pago volviendo al lugar donde comencé y tratando de conocerlo por primera vez. Esa fue una copia de una línea de TS Eliot. No quiero que pienses que pensé en eso.

LEX: Siempre cita tus fuentes, te lo agradezco.

WALTER: TS Eliot, si alguna vez necesitas resolverlo. , los cuatro cuartetos, esa parte al final, que es No dejaremos de explorar. Y el final de toda nuestra exploración será regresar al lugar donde empezamos y conocerlo por primera vez a través de la puerta desconocida pero medio recordada. Es simplemente hermoso. Y eso ha sido una inspiración para lo que haces. Supongo que si es una obra de Shakespeare, la llamarías acto cinco. Bueno, regresas al lugar de donde viniste y no te quedas ahí sentado preocupándote por el legado, sino que te sientas ahí diciendo, ¿cómo me aseguro de que alguien más pueda tener una trayectoria mágica comenzando en Nueva Orleans?

LEX: Bueno, para mí, eres uno de los mejores narradores de todos los tiempos. He sido un gran admirador.

WALTER: Definitivamente no es cierto, pero es muy amable de tu parte.

LEX: Mira, puedes serlo... Interrumpiendo brutalmente. Creo que probablemente Ben Franklin, así que durante no sé cuántos años, 15 años, desde Einstein hasta hoy, he sido un gran admirador tuyo. Y eres una de las personas que pensé que seguramente no se rebajarían a aparecer y conversar conmigo. Y es simplemente un regalo gigante para mí.

WALTER: Oye, volé a Austin para esto porque soy un gran admirador y especialmente un gran admirador porque tomas a las personas en serio y te preocupas.

LEX: Mil gracias. Gracias por respetarme y por inspirar a millones de personas con tus historias. De nuevo, una narración increíble, un ser humano increíble. Y gracias por hablar hoy.

WALTER: Gracias, Alex.

LEX: Gracias por escuchar esta conversación con Walter Isaacson para apoyar este podcast. Consulte nuestros patrocinadores en la descripción.Y ahora déjame dejarte con una de mis citas favoritas de Carl Jung. La gente hará cualquier cosa, por absurda que sea, para evitar enfrentarse a sus propias almas. uno no se convierteiluminado imaginando figuras de luz, pero haciendo consciente la oscuridad. Gracias por escuchar y espero verte la próxima vez.

Spanish transcription subtitles:

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Espero con mis libros estoy diciendo.

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esta no es una guía práctica,

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pero es alguien con quien puedes caminar.

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Puedes ver

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Einstein creció como judío en Alemania.

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Puedes ver a Jennifer Doudna crecer

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como un outsider o Leonardo da Vinci o Elon Musk en una Sudáfrica realmente violenta

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con un

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padre psicológicamente difícil.

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Y bajarse del tren cuando se dirige a la lucha contra el apartheid.

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concierto con su hermano y hay

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un hombre con un cuchillo saliendo de su cabeza y caminan

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en el charco de sangre y se les pega al alma.

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Esto causa

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cicatrices

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que duran el resto de tu vida.

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Y la pregunta no es

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¿Cómo evitas las cicatrices?

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¿Cómo lo afrontas?

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La siguiente es una conversación con Walter Isaacson,

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uno de los mejores escritores de biografías de todos los tiempos.

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Habiendo escrito libros increíbles sobre Albert Einstein,

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Steve Jobs,

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Leonardo da Vinci,

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Jennifer Doudna, Benjamín Franklin,

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Henry Kissinger,

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y ahora uno nuevo sobre Elon Musk.

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Hablamos durante horas dentro y fuera del micrófono.

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Seguro que hablaremos muchas más veces.

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Walter es un escritor, pensador, observador verdaderamente especial.

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y ser humano.

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Recomiendo encarecidamente a la gente que lea su nuevo libro sobre Elon.

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Estoy seguro de que habrá controversia a corto plazo,

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pero

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a largo plazo creo que inspirará a millones de jóvenes,

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especialmente con infancias difíciles,

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con dificultades en su entorno o en sus propias mentes,

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para afrontar los problemas más difíciles del

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mundo y encontrar soluciones a esos problemas,

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no importa cuán imposibles sean las probabilidades.

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En esta conversación,

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Walter y yo cubrimos todos sus libros y utilizamos historias personales de ellos para

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hablar de los principios más amplios de la lucha por la grandeza en la ciencia,

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en tecnología,

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ingeniería, arte,

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política,

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y vida.

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Hay muchas cosas en el nuevo libro de Elon que sentí que es mejor guardar.

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para cuando hable directamente con Elon nuevamente en este podcast,

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lo cual será bastante pronto.

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Quizás también sea bueno mencionar aquí que mis amistades como la de Elon,

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ni ninguna otra influencia como el dinero, el acceso, la fama o el poder resultará en que yo sacrifique mi integridad,

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alguna vez.

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Me gusta celebrar lo bueno de las personas,

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empatizar y comprender,

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pero también me gusta criticar a la gente por sus tonterías.

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con respeto y con compasión.

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Si fracaso,

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Fallo por falta de habilidad,

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no una falta de integridad.

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Trabajaré duro para mejorar.

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Este es el podcast de Lex Friedman.

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Para respaldarlo, consulte nuestros patrocinadores en la descripción.

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Y ahora, queridos amigos,

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Aquí está Walter Isaacson.

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¿Cuál es el papel de una infancia difícil en la vida de grandes hombres y mujeres, de grandes mentes?

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¿Es eso un requisito?

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¿Es un catalizador o es simplemente una simple coincidencia del destino?

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Bueno, no es un requisito.

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Algunas personas con una infancia feliz a quienes les va bastante bien,

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pero ciertamente es cierto que muchas personas realmente motivadas lo hacen porque están aprovechando

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los demonios de su infancia.

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Incluso la frase de Barack Obama en sus memorias,

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es decir, creo que todo hombre exitoso intenta estar a la altura de las expectativas de su padre

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o vivir los pecados de su padre.

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Y para Elon, es especialmente cierto porque tenía

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Tanto una infancia violenta y difícil como un padre psicológicamente muy problemático.

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Tiene esos demonios bailando en su cabeza.

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y al aprovecharlos,

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es

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parte de la razón

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que lo hace más arriesgado, más aventurero,

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más salvaje

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cosas de las que tal vez jamás haría.

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He escrito que Elon habló de su padre.

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y que por momentos se sentía como una tortura mental,

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la interacción con él durante su infancia.

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¿Puedes describir algunas de las

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cosas que has aprendido?

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Sí, bueno, Elon y Kimball me dirían eso,

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Por ejemplo,

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cuando Elon fue intimidado en el patio de recreo

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y un día lo empujaron por unos escalones de concreto y le golpearon la cara.

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tan mal que Kimball dijo:

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Realmente no pude reconocerlo.

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Quiero decir, estaba en el hospital.

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durante casi una semana.

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Pero cuando llegó a casa,

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Elon tuvo que pararse frente a su padre y su

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padre lo reprendió durante más de una hora

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y dijo que era estúpido y se puso del lado del

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persona que lo había golpeado.

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Probablemente ese sea uno de los acontecimientos más traumáticos de la vida de Elon.

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Sí.

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Y también está la escuela Veld,

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que es una especie de campamento paramilitar que los jóvenes del Sur

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Enviaron a niños africanos.

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Y en un momento,

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estaba flaco.

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Tiene muy mala captación de señales sociales.

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y señales emocionales.

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Habla de tener Asperger.

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Y por eso queda traumatizado en un campamento como ese.

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Pero la segunda vez que fue,

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se había hecho más grande.

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Se había disparado hasta casi seis pies y había aprendido

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un poco de judo.

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Y se dio cuenta de que si lo estaban golpeando,

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podría lastimarlo,

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pero simplemente le daría un puñetazo en la nariz lo más fuerte posible.

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De modo que

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sensación de siempre devolver el golpe

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También ha estado arraigado en Elon.

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Pasé mucho tiempo hablando con Errol Musk,

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su padre.

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Elon ya no habla con Errol Musk, su padre,

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Tampoco Kimball.

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Han pasado muchos años.

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Y Errol ni siquiera tiene el correo electrónico de Elon.

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Así que muchas veces

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Errol me enviará correos electrónicos.

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Y Errol tenía uno de esos

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Personalidades de Jekyll y Hyde.

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Él era

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una gran mente de la ingeniería y especialmente de la ciencia de los materiales.

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Sabía cómo construir un campamento en la naturaleza en Sudáfrica usando mica y cómo no conduciría el calor.

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Pero él también entraría en estos períodos oscuros.

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en el que simplemente sería psicológicamente abusivo.

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Y por supuesto,

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May Musk me dice:

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Su madre, que se divorció de Errol desde el principio, dijo:

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El peligro para Elon es que se convierta en su padre.

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Y de vez en cuando has estado con él así

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mucho, Lex, y lo conoces bien.

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Incluso te hablará de los demonios.

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sobre Diablo bailando en

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su cabeza.

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Quiero decir, lo entiende, es consciente de sí mismo,

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pero probablemente lo hayas visto en momentos en los que

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Esos demonios se hacen cargo y él se vuelve muy oscuro y muy silencioso.

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y Grimes

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dice, puedo decir una

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Uno o dos minutos de antelación cuando el modo demonio esté a punto de suceder.

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Y se pondrá un poco oscuro.

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estuve aquí en

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Austin una vez durante una cena con un grupo.

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Y se notaba que de repente algo lo había desencadenado.

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y se iba a quedar a oscuras.

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Lo he visto en reuniones donde alguien decía:

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no podemos hacer esa parte

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por menos de $200 o no, eso está mal.

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Y él los reprenderá.

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Y luego se recupera.

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Como ya sabes, la gran instantánea en la que de repente te muestra una parodia de Monty Python en su teléfono y

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está bromeando sobre las cosas.

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Entonces creo que al salir de la infancia,

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solo había muchas facetas,

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tal vez incluso muchas personalidades, el modo de ingeniería,

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el modo tonto, el modo carismático, el modo visionario,

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pero también el demonio en modo oscuro.

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Una cita que usted citó sobre Elon realmente me llamó la atención.

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Olvidé de quién era,

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pero dentro del hombre,

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él todavía está ahí cuando era niño,

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el niño parado frente a su papá.

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Esa era Tallulah.

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su segunda esposa.

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Y ella es genial.

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Ella es una actriz inglesa.

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De hecho, se han casado dos veces.

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Y Tallulah dijo que así es él desde su infancia.

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Es un adicto al drama.

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Kimball también dice eso.

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Y pregunté por qué.

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Y Tallulah dijo

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para él,

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amor y familia

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están algo asociados con esos tormentos psicológicos.

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Y en muchos sentidos,

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él canalizará.

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Quiero decir, Tallulah estaría con él en 2008 cuando la empresa iba a la quiebra o lo que sea.

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haberlo sido o después.

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Y estaría tan estresado que vomitaría.

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Y luego canalizaría las cosas.

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que su padre había dicho,

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utilizar frases que su padre le había dicho.

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Y entonces ella me dijo,

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En lo más profundo del hombre está este niño varón todavía de pie frente a su padre.

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¿Hasta qué punto crees que esto es cierto para muchos de nosotros?

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Yo creo que es verdad,

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pero de muchas maneras diferentes.

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Diré algo personal

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cual es yo

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bendito y quizás también sea un poco negativo,

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con el hecho de que tuve la mayor

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padre que puedas imaginar y madre.

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Eran las personas más amables que jamás querrías

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encontrarse.

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Crecí en un lugar mágico en Nueva Orleans.

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Mi papá era ingeniero, ingeniero eléctrico.

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Y él siempre fue amable.

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Tal vez

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No estoy tan motivado ni tan loco.

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No tengo que probar cosas.

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Entonces puedo escribir sobre Elon Musk.

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Puedo escribir sobre Einstein o Steve Jobs.

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o Leonardo da Vinci,

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quien como sabes,

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Estaba totalmente destrozado por demonios y tenía diferentes dificultades.

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Situaciones infantiles, ni siquiera legitimadas por su padre.

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Así que a veces los que tenemos suerte

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lo suficiente como para ser realmente gentil,

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dulce infancia,

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crecemos con menos demonios,

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pero crecemos con

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menos unidades y terminaremos tal vez

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ser Boswell y no ser el Dr.

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Johnson.

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Terminamos siendo el observador,

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no ser el hacedor.

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Y por eso siempre respeto a los que están en la arena.

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No te ves como un hombre en la arena.

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he tenido

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un gentil,

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dulce carrera

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y tengo que cubrir gente realmente interesante,

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pero nunca he lanzado un cohete que algún día pueda llegar a Marte.

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Nunca nos mudé a

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el aire de los vehículos eléctricos.

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Nunca me he quedado despierto toda la noche en la fábrica.

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No tengo esos

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ya sea las unidades o el

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adicción al riesgo.

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Quiero decir, Elon es adicto al riesgo.

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Es adicto a la aventura.

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Yo, si veo algo que es riesgoso,

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Paso un tiempo calculando,

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Bueno, aquí al revés.

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Pero esa es otra razón por la que personas como Elon Musk hacen cosas

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y gente como yo escribe sobre Elon Musk.

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Otro aspecto de esto,

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dada una infancia difícil,

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ya sea Elon o DaVinci,

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Me pregunto si hay algo de sabiduría

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algunos consejos casi que puedes dibujar,

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que puedes regalar a personas con infancias difíciles.

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Creo que todos tenemos demonios.

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incluso aquellos de nosotros que crecimos en una parte mágica de Nueva

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Orleans con dulces padres.

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Todos tenemos demonios.

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La primera regla en la vida es controlar tus demonios.

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Sepa que es ambicioso o no ambicioso o que es vago o lo que sea.

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Leonardo DaVinci sabía que era un procrastinador.

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Creo

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es útil saber

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lo que te han comido,

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saber aprovecharlo.

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También debes saber en qué eres bueno.

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Tomaré a Musk como otro ejemplo.

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Soy un poco más como Kimball Musk

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que Elón.

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Quizás me sobre dotaron del gen de la empatía.

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¿Qué significa eso?

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Bien,

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significa que estaba bien cuando dirigía la revista Time.

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Era un grupo de unas 150 personas en las salas de redacción y

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Los conocía a todos y

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lo pasamos muy bien.

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Cuando fui a CNN,

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no fui muy bueno

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ser gerente o ejecutivo de una organización.

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Me importaba demasiado

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que la gente no se enfadara ni se enfadara conmigo.

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Elon dijo eso sobre John McNeil,

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por ejemplo, quién fue presidente de Tesla.

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Está en el libro.

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Hablé con John McNeil durante mucho tiempo.

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y él dice,

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elon solo

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despediría a la gente.

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Es muy duro con la gente.

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No tenía empatía por la gente que tenía delante.

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Elon dice, sí, es cierto.

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00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:08,780
John McNeil no podía despedir a la gente.

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Le importaba más complacer a la gente que tenía delante.

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que complacer a toda la empresa o hacer las cosas.

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Tener un deseo excesivo de complacer a la gente puede hacer que usted sea un gerente menos duro.

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Eso no significa que no haya grandes personas superdotadas.

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Ben Franklin,

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Sobredotado del deseo de complacer a la gente.

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La peor crítica que le hicieron John Adams y otros fue que estaba insinuando,

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lo que significaba que siempre estaba tratando de

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00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,160
conseguir que le guste a la gente.

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Pero eso resultó ser algo bueno cuando no pueden entender el gran estado,

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pequeño tema de estado en la Convención Constitucional,

305
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,660
cuando no pueden entender el Tratado de París, sea lo que sea,

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une a la gente y ese es su superpoder.

307
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:02,020
Entonces, para volver a las lecciones que preguntaste,

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00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,800
y el primero fue controlar tus demonios.

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El segundo es conocer tus puntos fuertes y tu superpoder.

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00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:11,840
mi superpoder

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00:14:12,460 --> 00:14:14,120
Definitivamente no es ser un gerente duro.

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00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,980
Después de dirigir CNN por un tiempo, dije, está bien,

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Me demostraron que realmente no

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00:14:19,300 --> 00:14:21,120
disfruta esto o sabes cómo hacerlo bien.

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00:14:22,060 --> 00:14:25,340
¿Tengo otros talentos?

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00:14:25,420 --> 00:14:26,120
Sí, creo que tengo

317
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,820
el talento para observar a las personas muy de cerca,

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00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,760
escribir sobre ello de forma directa,

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00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:34,220
pero espero un estilo narrativo interesante.

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00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:35,380
Eso es un poder.

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00:14:35,780 --> 00:14:37,760
Es totalmente diferente a dirigir una organización.

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00:14:38,140 --> 00:14:46,840
Me llevó hasta tres años dirigiendo CNN que me di cuenta de que no estoy hecho para ser ejecutivo de una manera realmente

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muy intenso

324
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,400
situaciones.

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00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,860
Elon Musk es despedido para ser ejecutivo en una situación muy intensa

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situaciones tanto que cuando las cosas se vuelven menos intensas,

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00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:02,360
cuando en realidad están fabricando suficientes automóviles y

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00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:05,400
los cohetes suben y aterrizan,

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00:15:06,340 --> 00:15:08,500
piensa en otra cosa para poder surgir

330
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y tener más intensidad.

331
00:15:09,860 --> 00:15:15,220
Es adicto a la intensidad y ese es su superpoder.

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00:15:15,260 --> 00:15:18,320
que es mucho mayor que el superpoder de ser un buen observador.

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00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:19,920
Pero creo que también

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00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,040
para construir sobre eso,

335
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:23,600
no es solo adicción

336
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,440
al riesgo y al drama.

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Siempre hay una gran misión.

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00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:30,940
sobre eso.

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00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:38,240
Entonces yo diría que es empatía hacia las personas en el panorama general.

340
00:15:39,180 --> 00:15:43,480
Es una empatía hacia la humanidad más que la empatía hacia

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00:15:44,020 --> 00:15:45,080
los tres o cuatro humanos

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00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,280
quién podría estar sentado en la sala de conferencias con usted.

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00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:49,120
Y eso es un gran problema.

344
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:50,900
Lo ves en muchas

345
00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:51,220
de la gente.

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00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,500
Ya lo ven, Bill Gates, Larry Summers,

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00:15:56,020 --> 00:15:56,560
Elon Musk.

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00:15:57,660 --> 00:16:01,500
Siempre tienen empatía por estos.

349
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,600
grandes objetivos de la humanidad.

350
00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:09,800
Y a veces pueden no tener ni idea de las emociones de las personas que están delante.

351
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:11,200
de ellos o insensible a veces.

352
00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:13,640
Musk, como dijiste,

353
00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:18,640
está impulsado por la misión más que cualquier persona que haya visto.

354
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:20,840
Y no es sólo misión,

355
00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:22,220
son como misiones cósmicas,

356
00:16:23,420 --> 00:16:25,420
lo que significa que tiene tres realmente grandes

357
00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:26,460
misiones.

358
00:16:26,900 --> 00:16:27,400
Uno

359
00:16:28,180 --> 00:16:31,400
es hacer de los humanos una civilización espacial,

360
00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:35,400
hacernos multiplanetarios o llevarnos a Marte.

361
00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:39,760
El número dos es llevarnos a la era de la energía sostenible,

362
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,780
para llevarnos a la era de los vehículos eléctricos y los techos solares y

363
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:46,260
paquetes de baterías.

364
00:16:47,020 --> 00:16:48,300
Y el tercero es hacer

365
00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:50,520
seguro que la inteligencia artificial

366
00:16:51,060 --> 00:16:53,700
es seguro y está alineado con los valores humanos.

367
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,820
Y de vez en cuando hablaba con él y hablábamos de los satélites Starlink o lo que sea.

368
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,960
O estaría empujando a la gente que tenía delante en SpaceX.

369
00:17:04,540 --> 00:17:05,680
y diciendo, si haces esto,

370
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:06,640
nunca llegaremos a

371
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:07,600
Marte en nuestra vida.

372
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,660
Y luego daría la conferencia sobre lo importante que era para la conciencia humana.

373
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,500
llegar a Marte durante nuestra vida.

374
00:17:13,980 --> 00:17:17,800
Y estoy pensando, está bien, esta es la charla de ánimo de alguien que intenta

375
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:23,060
inspirar a un equipo o tal vez sea un tipo de pontificación que haces en un podcast.

376
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:24,660
Pero como el 20

377
00:17:24,780 --> 00:17:26,460
Cuando lo miré, me di cuenta,

378
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:27,080
bueno,

379
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,240
Yo lo creo.

380
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,120
En realidad, esto lo impulsa.

381
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:32,120
Él es

382
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:38,620
frustrado y enojado porque debido a esta decisión de ingeniería menor en particular,

383
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,820
la gran misión no se va a cumplir.

384
00:17:41,940 --> 00:17:42,720
No es una charla de ánimo.

385
00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:43,960
Es una frustración literal.

386
00:17:45,020 --> 00:17:46,900
Y la impaciencia, una frustración.

387
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:55,040
Y probablemente también sea lo más profundamente arraigado en él.

388
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:56,720
es su misión.

389
00:17:57,140 --> 00:18:02,780
En un momento bromeó conmigo acerca de lo mucho que le encantaba leer cómics cuando era niño.

390
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:05,220
Y él dijo, todas las personas en los cómics,

391
00:18:05,980 --> 00:18:07,540
están tratando de salvar el mundo,

392
00:18:07,580 --> 00:18:10,760
pero llevan calzoncillos por fuera y se ven ridículos.

393
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,140
Y luego hizo una pausa y dijo:

394
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,220
pero están tratando de salvar el mundo.

395
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,240
¿Y si es Starlink en Ucrania?

396
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:24,720
o Starship yendo a Marte o intentando conseguir un nuevo Tesla global,

397
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:30,120
Creo que tiene este sentido épico del papel que va a desempeñar.

398
00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:33,080
para ayudar a la humanidad en grandes cosas.

399
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:35,380
Y, como

400
00:18:36,060 --> 00:18:38,520
los personajes de los cómics,

401
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:40,420
a veces es ridículo,

402
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,060
pero a veces también es cierto.

403
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:45,600
Cuando estaba leyendo esta parte del libro,

404
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,780
Estaba pensando en todos los jóvenes que están

405
00:18:51,140 --> 00:18:52,180
luchando de esta manera.

406
00:18:52,220 --> 00:18:54,740
Y creo que mucha gente lo es de diferentes maneras,

407
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,080
si crecen sin padre,

408
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,280
si crecen con abuso físico, emocional y mental

409
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:00,900
o demonios de cualquier tipo,

410
00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:01,740
como hablaste.

411
00:19:02,220 --> 00:19:04,380
Y es realmente doloroso de leer,

412
00:19:04,380 --> 00:19:06,460
pero también muy inspirador

413
00:19:07,420 --> 00:19:08,480
que si tu

414
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,800
como caminar al lado de esos demonios,

415
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,620
si no lo dejas

416
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:17,480
ese dolor te rompe

417
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:19,280
o de alguna manera canalizarlo,

418
00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:20,660
si puedes decirlo de esta manera,

419
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:21,680
que puedes lograr,

420
00:19:21,860 --> 00:19:23,340
puedes hacer grandes cosas en este mundo.

421
00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:27,560
Bueno, esa es una visión épica de por qué escribimos.

422
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,420
biografía, que es más épica de lo que había pensado.

423
00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:32,900
Entonces te digo gracias

424
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,260
porque de alguna manera lo que intentas hacer es decir,

425
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,760
Vale, quiero decir, Leonardo, hablas de ser un inadaptado,

426
00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:42,720
él nació ilegítimo

427
00:19:43,540 --> 00:19:48,180
en el pueblo de Vinci y él es gay y es zurdo y está distraído

428
00:19:48,980 --> 00:19:51,960
y su padre no lo legitimará.

429
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:58,980
Y luego se va a la ciudad de Florencia y se convierte en

430
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,720
el mejor artista e ingeniero

431
00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:03,560
de esa parte del Renacimiento.

432
00:20:05,220 --> 00:20:06,920
Espero que este libro inspire.

433
00:20:06,980 --> 00:20:07,820
Jennifer Doudna,

434
00:20:08,660 --> 00:20:12,620
el pionero de la edición genética que ayuda a descubrir CRISPR,

435
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:14,120
herramienta de edición de genes,

436
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,540
que mi libro, The Code Breaker,

437
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,520
creció sintiéndose como una inadaptada en Hawaii,

438
00:20:20,620 --> 00:20:23,860
en un pueblo polinesio siendo la única persona blanca

439
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,060
y también tratando de estar a la altura de un padre que la presionó.

440
00:20:27,220 --> 00:20:30,360
Entonces, si la gente puede leer los libros,

441
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:33,060
y debería haber dicho sobre Jennifer Doudna,

442
00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:36,740
Lo que quiero decir es que su consejero escolar le dijo:

443
00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:38,120
No, las chicas no hacen ciencia.

444
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:39,760
Ya sabes, la ciencia no es para niñas.

445
00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:41,480
No vas a hacer matemáticas ni ciencias.

446
00:20:42,220 --> 00:20:44,900
Y eso la empuja a decir, está bien,

447
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:47,060
Voy a hacer matemáticas y ciencias.

448
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:48,920
Sólo para interrumpir muy rápido,

449
00:20:49,740 --> 00:20:50,560
pero Jennifer Doudna,

450
00:20:50,940 --> 00:20:54,200
Has escrito un libro fantástico sobre ella, ganadora del Premio Nobel.

451
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,200
Desarrollador de CRISPR, simplemente increíble, uno de los grandes científicos del siglo XXI.

452
00:20:58,520 --> 00:20:58,800
Bien.

453
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,800
Y estoy hablando de cuando Jennifer Doudna era joven.

454
00:21:02,340 --> 00:21:03,600
y ella sintió realmente,

455
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,480
realmente fuera de lugar,

456
00:21:04,780 --> 00:21:08,600
como tú y yo y mucha gente cuando se siente de esa manera,

457
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:09,460
Ellos leen libros,

458
00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:11,540
Se acurrucan con el libro.

459
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,300
Entonces su padre deja caer un libro en su cama llamado La doble hélice,

460
00:21:15,420 --> 00:21:23,240
el libro de James Watson sobre el descubrimiento de la estructura del ADN por él, Rosalind Franklin y Francis Crick.

461
00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:27,020
Y ella se da cuenta, oh Dios mío,

462
00:21:27,660 --> 00:21:29,080
las niñas pueden convertirse en científicas.

463
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,020
Mi consejero escolar está equivocado.

464
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,960
Entonces pienso que los libros,

465
00:21:36,980 --> 00:21:38,820
como ella leyó este libro,

466
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,120
y aunque sea un cómic,

467
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,720
como leyó Elon Musk,

468
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,300
Los libros a veces pueden inspirarte.

469
00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:48,660
Y cada uno de mis libros trata sobre personas que son

470
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:50,340
totalmente innovador,

471
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,200
que no sólo eran inteligentes,

472
00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:54,220
porque ninguno de nosotros va a ser

473
00:21:54,220 --> 00:21:57,180
capaz de igualar a Einstein y el poder de procesamiento mental.

474
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,060
Pero podemos ser tan curiosos como él.

475
00:22:01,060 --> 00:22:04,060
y creativo y pensar fuera de lo común como él lo hizo,

476
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,280
o como lo expresó Steve Jobs, piense diferente.

477
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,160
Y eso espero con mis libros, digo.

478
00:22:11,660 --> 00:22:13,380
esta no es una guía práctica,

479
00:22:13,860 --> 00:22:14,660
pero este es alguien

480
00:22:14,660 --> 00:22:15,860
puedes caminar al lado.

481
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:17,460
Puedes ver

482
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,080
Einstein creció como judío en Alemania.

483
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:22,740
Puedes ver a Jennifer.

484
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:28,660
Doudna creció como un outsider o Leonardo da Vinci o Elon Musk

485
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,580
en una Sudáfrica realmente violenta

486
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:34,960
con un padre psicológicamente difícil.

487
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,340
Y bajarse del tren cuando se dirige a la lucha contra el apartheid.

488
00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:39,500
concierto con su hermano,

489
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:40,460
y ahí está

490
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,940
un hombre con un cuchillo clavado en la cabeza,

491
00:22:44,340 --> 00:22:47,340
y entran en el charco de sangre y se les pega al alma.

492
00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:49,580
Esto causa

493
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,580
cicatrices

494
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,020
que duran el resto de tu vida.

495
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,420
Y la pregunta no es

496
00:22:56,940 --> 00:22:59,060
¿Cómo evitas las cicatrices?

497
00:22:59,260 --> 00:23:00,820
¿Cómo lo afrontas?

498
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:02,600
Einstein también

499
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:11,040
una de mis biografías, y es difícil elegir mi favorita, pero Einstein,

500
00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:14,320
Quiero decir, realmente pintas un cuadro de otro,

501
00:23:15,140 --> 00:23:16,440
No quiero llamarlo inadaptado.

502
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:23,000
pero una persona que no necesariamente tiene una trayectoria estándar en una vida de éxito.

503
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,140
Eso es extremadamente inspirador.

504
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,420
No sé exactamente qué pregunta hacer.

505
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:32,000
Hay un millón.

506
00:23:32,020 --> 00:23:33,980
Bueno, hablaré del inadaptado por un segundo.

507
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:36,240
porque hablábamos de que Leonardo era así.

508
00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:41,400
Einstein es judío en Alemania en un momento en que las cosas empiezan a ponerse difíciles.

509
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:43,980
Tarda en aprender a hablar.

510
00:23:44,660 --> 00:23:46,220
y es un pensador visual.

511
00:23:46,260 --> 00:23:48,400
Por eso siempre está soñando despierto e imaginando cosas.

512
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,640
La primera vez que se postula para el Politécnico de Zurich,

513
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,800
porque huye del aleman

514
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,180
sistema educativo porque es demasiado aprendizaje de memoria.

515
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:01,600
El politécnico de Zurich lo rechaza.

516
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,160
Ahora es la segunda mejor escuela de Zurich y rechazan a Einstein.

517
00:24:05,260 --> 00:24:06,120
Traté de encontrar,

518
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:10,240
Pero no pude saber el nombre del asesor de admisiones del Politécnico de Zurich.

519
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:11,960
Como rechazaste a Einstein.

520
00:24:12,620 --> 00:24:15,660
Y luego no termina entre la mitad superior de su clase.

521
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:17,920
Y una vez que lo haga

522
00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:22,440
y va a la escuela de posgrado, no aceptan su tesis.

523
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:23,940
Entonces no puede conseguir un trabajo.

524
00:24:23,980 --> 00:24:25,340
No lo está enseñando.

525
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:28,560
Incluso prueba alrededor de 14 escuelas secundarias diferentes,

526
00:24:28,780 --> 00:24:31,260
gimnasio para conseguir un trabajo y ellos

527
00:24:31,260 --> 00:24:31,980
no lo aceptará.

528
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:36,160
Así que en 1905 era examinador de tercera categoría en la oficina de patentes suiza.

529
00:24:36,980 --> 00:24:40,660
Tercera porque rechazaron su tesis doctoral.

530
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,120
Y entonces no puede ser de segunda o de primera.

531
00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:45,620
porque no tiene un doctorado.

532
00:24:46,260 --> 00:24:47,940
Y, sin embargo, está sentado en el taburete de

533
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,000
la oficina de patentes en 1905

534
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:51,420
y escribe

535
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:55,760
Tres artículos que transforman totalmente la ciencia.

536
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:58,240
Y si estás pensando en ser

537
00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:02,180
incomprendido o despreciado en 1906,

538
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:03,040
él todavía es un tercero

539
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:03,580
patente de clase.

540
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,020
En 1907 todavía lo es.

541
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,400
Hubo que esperar hasta 1909 para que la gente se diera cuenta de que esto

542
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,540
La noción de la teoría de la relatividad podría ser correcta y podría trastocar toda la física newtoniana.

543
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,240
Como es posible

544
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,320
para que se escriban tres de los artículos más importantes de la historia de la ciencia

545
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,440
en un año por esta única persona?

546
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,460
¿Hay algunas ideas?

547
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,100
sabidurías que dibujas?

548
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,020
Además, sin trabajo diario, es examinador de patentes.

549
00:25:29,140 --> 00:25:30,480
Y en realidad hay tres artículos,

550
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:31,880
pero también hay un apéndice

551
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,420
porque una vez que descubres la teoría cuántica y luego descubres la relatividad

552
00:25:36,420 --> 00:25:40,180
y estás entendiendo las ecuaciones de Maxwell y la velocidad de la luz,

553
00:25:41,140 --> 00:25:42,940
hace un pequeño apéndice.

554
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,680
Esa es la ecuación más famosa de toda la física.

555
00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:48,480
que es E es igual a MC al cuadrado.

556
00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:50,600
Entonces es un año bastante bueno.

557
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,900
En parte comienza porque es un pensador visual.

558
00:25:54,940 --> 00:25:56,160
Y creo que fue útil.

559
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:02,800
que estaba en la oficina de patentes en lugar de ser el acólito de algún profesor de la

560
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,980
academia donde se suponía que debía seguir las reglas.

561
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,560
Y así dijo la oficina de patentes haciendo

562
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:12,300
dispositivos para sincronizar relojes porque los suizos acaban de adoptar zonas horarias estándar

563
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,300
Y los suizos, como usted sabe, tienden a ser más bien suizos.

564
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:16,700
Les importa si golpea

565
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:18,480
la hora en Basilea,

566
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:20,880
Debería hacer lo mismo y quemarse exactamente en el extremo.

567
00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:24,120
Entonces hay que enviar una señal luminosa entre dos relojes distantes.

568
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,360
Y está visualizando cómo será viajar junto a un rayo de luz.

569
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,900
Él dice, bueno, si lo alcanzas,

570
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:32,900
si vas casi tan rápido,

571
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:33,840
parecerá estacionario.

572
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,220
Pero las ecuaciones de Maxwell

573
00:26:35,780 --> 00:26:36,760
no permitas eso.

574
00:26:36,780 --> 00:26:37,200
Y él dijo,

575
00:26:37,580 --> 00:26:40,440
Me está haciendo sudar la palma de la mano porque estaba tan preocupada.

576
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,500
Y finalmente se da cuenta porque está mirando estos dispositivos para sincronizar relojes,

577
00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:48,300
que si viajas muy, muy rápido,

578
00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:52,840
lo que te parece sincrónico o sincronizado para ti es

579
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,280
diferente a la de alguien que viaja muy rápido en la otra dirección.

580
00:26:56,900 --> 00:26:58,940
Y esa vez da el salto mental

581
00:26:59,940 --> 00:27:02,120
que la velocidad de la luz es siempre constante,

582
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,600
pero el tiempo es relativo dependiendo de tu estado de movimiento.

583
00:27:05,220 --> 00:27:08,640
Así que fue ese tipo de pensamiento innovador, esos saltos

584
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,140
eso hizo de 1905 su año milagroso.

585
00:27:12,740 --> 00:27:13,920
Lo mismo ocurre con Musk,

586
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:15,400
Quiero decir,

587
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,000
después de General Motors y Ford,

588
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,060
Todo el mundo renuncia a los vehículos eléctricos.

589
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:21,740
para sólo

590
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:22,760
decir,

591
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:24,960
Sé cómo vamos a tener un camino

592
00:27:25,580 --> 00:27:30,660
cambiar toda la trayectoria del mundo hacia la era de los vehículos eléctricos.

593
00:27:31,340 --> 00:27:32,840
Y luego, cuando regrese de Rusia,

594
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:33,980
donde intentó comprar

595
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,960
un pequeño cohete para poder enviar un invernadero experimental a Marte,

596
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,500
y se estaban burlando de

597
00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:44,460
y, de hecho, escupirles en un momento dado durante un almuerzo de borrachera.

598
00:27:45,220 --> 00:27:46,720
esto es muy fortuito

599
00:27:47,420 --> 00:27:49,980
porque en el viaje de regreso a casa en el avión,

600
00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:52,100
en el vuelo de Delta Airlines,

601
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,960
es como hacer los cálculos de cuántos materiales,

602
00:27:56,140 --> 00:27:57,760
cuanto metal, cuanto combustible,

603
00:27:58,460 --> 00:28:00,100
¿cuanto costaría realmente?

604
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:08,200
Y entonces visualiza cosas que otras personas simplemente dirían que son imposibles.

605
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,180
Es lo que los amigos de Steve Jobs llamaban el campo de distorsión de la realidad.

606
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:14,820
Y enloqueció a la gente.

607
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:19,800
Los volvía locos, pero también los llevaba a hacer cosas que no creían que serían capaces de hacer.

608
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:21,680
Dijiste pensamiento visual.

609
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:27,120
Me pregunto si has visto paralelos entre los diferentes estilos y tipos de pensamiento.

610
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:34,220
que operan las mentes de estas personas.

611
00:28:34,860 --> 00:28:38,940
Entonces, ¿existen paralelos entre Elon, Steve Jobs,

612
00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:40,940
Einstein, Da Vinci,

613
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,460
específicamente en

614
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:43,860
¿cómo piensan?

615
00:28:44,460 --> 00:28:46,480
Creo que todos eran pensadores visuales,

616
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:49,320
tal vez provenientes de ligeras desventajas cuando eran niños,

617
00:28:50,180 --> 00:28:54,380
Es decir, Leonardo era zurdo y un poco disléctico, creo.

618
00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:58,340
Y ciertamente Einstein tenía una callia.

619
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:59,920
Repetiría cosas.

620
00:28:59,980 --> 00:29:02,020
Tardó en aprender a hablar.

621
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,980
Entonces creo que visualizar ayuda mucho.

622
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:07,780
Y con almizcle,

623
00:29:09,140 --> 00:29:12,280
Lo veo todo el tiempo cuando camino por las líneas de la fábrica con él.

624
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,960
o en el desarrollo de productos,

625
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,300
donde mirará,

626
00:29:17,460 --> 00:29:22,680
digamos, el escudo térmico debajo del motor Raptor de un propulsor Starship.

627
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:26,200
Y él dirá, ¿por qué tiene que ser así?

628
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,400
¿No podríamos recortarlo de esta manera?

629
00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:28,130
O incluso

630
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,400
deshazte de esta parte.

631
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,000
Y puede visualizar la ciencia material.

632
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:33,300
hay

633
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:41,120
Pequeñas anécdotas en mi libro, pero en un momento él está en la línea Tesla y están tratando de conseguir 5.000 coches.

634
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,640
una semana en 2018.

635
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:44,560
Es una situación de vida o muerte.

636
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,900
Y él está mirando las máquinas que están

637
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,820
atornillar algo al chasis.

638
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,780
Y Lars Moravey, uno de sus grandes lugartenientes,

639
00:29:56,060 --> 00:29:58,020
Viene y tienen que citarlo.

640
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:58,360
Y él dice,

641
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,920
¿Por qué hay seis tornillos aquí?

642
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,120
Y Lars y otros explicaron:

643
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,720
bueno, para las pruebas de choque o cualquier otra cosa,

644
00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:09,240
la presión sería de esta manera,

645
00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:09,740
entonces tienes que hacerlo.

646
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:10,500
Y eran aburridos,

647
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:11,120
bla bla bla bla.

648
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:12,860
Y él dijo que no.

649
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:14,460
Si lo visualizas,

650
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,600
verás si hay un accidente,

651
00:30:17,420 --> 00:30:20,500
la fuerza iría de un lado a otro.

652
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,680
Y se puede hacer con cuatro tornillos.

653
00:30:23,940 --> 00:30:25,780
Eso suena arriesgado.

654
00:30:25,940 --> 00:30:27,560
Y van a probarlo y lo diseñan,

655
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:28,420
pero resulta que tiene razón.

656
00:30:28,940 --> 00:30:30,180
Sé que eso parece menor,

657
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,540
pero podría darte 500 de esos,

658
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:34,620
donde en un día cualquiera,

659
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,740
él está visualizando la física

660
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,200
de un problema de ingeniería o fabricación.

661
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,020
Eso suena bastante mundano.

662
00:30:45,020 --> 00:30:45,900
Pero para mi,

663
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,220
si dices lo que lo hace especial,

664
00:30:48,580 --> 00:30:50,000
hay algo impulsado por la misión.

665
00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:51,600
Te doy muchas razones

666
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:58,180
pero una de las razones es que a él no solo le importa el diseño del producto,

667
00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:02,760
pero visualizando la fabricación del producto,

668
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,820
la máquina que hace la máquina.

669
00:31:05,220 --> 00:31:06,220
Y eso es lo que no logramos

670
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,660
hacer en Estados Unidos durante los últimos 40 años.

671
00:31:08,820 --> 00:31:10,240
Subcontratamos gran parte de la fabricación.

672
00:31:10,820 --> 00:31:12,000
No creo que puedas

673
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,220
ser un buen innovador

674
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,540
si no sabes cómo hacer las cosas que estás diseñando.

675
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:23,840
Y es por eso que Musk coloca su escritorio de diseñador justo al lado de las líneas de montaje en las fábricas.

676
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,020
que tienen que visualizar lo que dibujaron

677
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,660
a medida que se convierte en el objeto físico.

678
00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:33,980
Entonces, comprender todo, desde la física hasta el software,

679
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:34,980
es como de punta a punta.

680
00:31:35,380 --> 00:31:39,260
Bueno, tener un control de extremo a extremo es importante,

681
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,180
ciertamente con Steve Jobs.

682
00:31:41,660 --> 00:31:42,940
Estoy mirando mi iPhone aquí.

683
00:31:43,380 --> 00:31:43,960
Tiene mucha importancia.

684
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:50,100
Ese hardware sólo funciona con el software de Apple y, por un tiempo, con la tienda iTunes.

685
00:31:52,210 --> 00:31:58,440
Así que tiene un final a fin que lo hace como un jardín zen en Kioto, muy cuidadosamente curado.

686
00:31:58,980 --> 00:31:59,940
pero una cosa de belleza.

687
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:06,320
Para Musk, cuando estuvo por primera vez en Tesla y antes de ser director ejecutivo,

688
00:32:06,460 --> 00:32:07,120
cuando el era solo

689
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,280
el presidente ejecutivo y

690
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,440
básicamente la persona financiera que lo financia,

691
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:13,820
estaban subcontratando todo.

692
00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:18,880
Estaban fabricando las baterías en Japón y el paquete de baterías estaría en alguna tienda de barbacoas en

693
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:26,180
Tailandia y enviado a la fábrica de Lotus en Inglaterra para ser colocado en un chasis Lotus Elise y luego mencionado.

694
00:32:26,860 --> 00:32:28,700
Eso fue una pesadilla.

695
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,920
No tenías control de principio a fin del proceso de fabricación.

696
00:32:33,460 --> 00:32:35,180
Entonces se va al otro extremo.

697
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:41,040
Consigue una fábrica de Toyota en Fremont y quiere hacer todo internamente.

698
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:41,760
El software

699
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,040
internamente,

700
00:32:43,420 --> 00:32:44,580
la pintura interna,

701
00:32:45,620 --> 00:32:48,640
la batería.

702
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:50,480
Él fabrica sus propias baterías.

703
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,740
Y creo que ese control de extremo a extremo es parte de su personalidad.

704
00:32:57,660 --> 00:32:58,380
Pero

705
00:32:58,980 --> 00:33:01,480
También permitiría a Tesla

706
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:03,040
ser innovador.

707
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:05,000
Sí, tengo que ver

708
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,320
y entender en detalle uno

709
00:33:10,660 --> 00:33:13,180
ejemplo de ello, que es el desarrollo de la

710
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:14,420
cerebro del auto

711
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,440
en piloto automático, pasando del ojo móvil

712
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,520
a la construcción interna del sistema de piloto automático para

713
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,360
básicamente deshacerse de todos los sensores que no son

714
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,220
rico en datos para que sea compatible con la IA,

715
00:33:31,940 --> 00:33:33,780
algo así como decir que podemos hacerlo todo con visión.

716
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:35,220
Y como dijiste,

717
00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:36,700
quitando algunos de los tornillos.

718
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,380
Entonces a veces son cosas pequeñas,

719
00:33:38,460 --> 00:33:41,500
pero a veces se trata de cosas realmente importantes, como deshacerse del radar.

720
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,720
Bueno, la visión solo deshacerse del radar es enorme.

721
00:33:45,540 --> 00:33:47,040
y todo el mundo está en contra.

722
00:33:47,220 --> 00:33:48,900
Todos. Y eso todavía es luchar un poco.

723
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,620
Todavía están intentando hacer una próxima generación,

724
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:52,360
alguna forma de radar,

725
00:33:52,620 --> 00:33:54,320
pero vuelve

726
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:55,220
a los primeros principios.

727
00:33:55,820 --> 00:33:56,940
Estamos hablando de visualizar.

728
00:33:57,500 --> 00:33:58,180
Bueno, él comienza

729
00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:00,720
con los primeros principios

730
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,780
y los primeros principios de la física involucran cosas como lo que los humanos conducen con solo

731
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:08,240
entrada visual.

732
00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:09,580
No tienen radar.

733
00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:10,560
No tienen LIDAR.

734
00:34:10,620 --> 00:34:11,580
No tienen sonar.

735
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:12,780
Y entonces

736
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:19,520
No había ninguna razón en las leyes de la física que hicieran que la visión sólo

737
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:22,520
no tendrá éxito en la creación de vehículos autónomos.

738
00:34:23,340 --> 00:34:26,940
Ahora eso se convierte en un artículo de fe para él y

739
00:34:26,940 --> 00:34:28,120
recibe mucho rechazo.

740
00:34:31,020 --> 00:34:32,040
Y él está por cierto

741
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,540
No ha tenido tanto éxito en cumplir con sus plazos de

742
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,300
conseguir la conducción autónoma.

743
00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:38,040
Es demasiado optimista.

744
00:34:39,180 --> 00:34:43,880
pero fueron los primeros principios de deshacerse de cosas innecesarias.

745
00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:45,920
Ahora pensarías en LIDAR,

746
00:34:45,980 --> 00:34:46,900
¿Por qué no usarlo?

747
00:34:46,980 --> 00:34:48,060
¿Por qué no usar un flechazo?

748
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,260
Es como, sí, podemos hacer cosas solo con visión,

749
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:52,200
pero cuando miro las estrellas por la noche,

750
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,700
Yo también uso un telescopio.

751
00:34:54,420 --> 00:34:54,800
Bien,

752
00:34:55,140 --> 00:34:56,240
podrías usar LIDAR,

753
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,200
pero no se pueden fabricar millones de coches de esa manera a escala.

754
00:34:59,340 --> 00:35:00,260
En un cierto punto,

755
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,660
hay que convertirlo no sólo en un buen producto,

756
00:35:02,820 --> 00:35:04,880
sino un producto que va a escala.

757
00:35:05,380 --> 00:35:05,920
Y no puedes hacer

758
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,820
se basa en mapas como Google Maps,

759
00:35:07,940 --> 00:35:12,680
porque nunca podrá conducir desde Nueva Orleans hasta

760
00:35:12,770 --> 00:35:16,220
Slidell, donde quiero ir cuando hace demasiado calor en Nueva Orleans.

761
00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:19,300
Tomemos, por ejemplo, la conducción autónoma total.

762
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:23,600
Ha estado obsesionado con lo que él llama el robo taxi.

763
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:25,620
Vamos a construir la próxima generación.

764
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,360
coche sin volante,

765
00:35:28,340 --> 00:35:28,980
sin pedales,

766
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:31,080
porque va a ser totalmente autónomo.

767
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:31,840
Simplemente convocalo.

768
00:35:32,260 --> 00:35:34,040
No necesitarás conducirlo.

769
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:35,580
Bueno, una y otra vez

770
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:37,220
toda esta gente de la que te he hablado,

771
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,740
Lars Morave y Drew Baglino y otros,

772
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:45,060
Están diciendo, está bien, eso suena muy bien, pero aún no ha sucedido.

773
00:35:45,540 --> 00:35:50,980
Necesitamos construir un automóvil global de 25.000 dólares para el mercado masivo que sea simplemente normal.

774
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:51,840
con volante.

775
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:57,760
Y sí, finalmente se dio la vuelta hace unos meses y dijo:

776
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:58,880
Vamos a hacerlo.

777
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:02,320
¿Y luego empieza a centrarse en cómo va a funcionar la línea de montaje?

778
00:36:02,380 --> 00:36:07,340
¿Cómo lo vamos a hacer y convertirlo en la misma plataforma para robo taxi para que puedas tener el mismo ensamblaje?

779
00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:08,440
Asimismo,

780
00:36:08,940 --> 00:36:09,860
para conducción autónoma completa,

781
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,880
Lo hacían codificando cientos de miles de líneas de código.

782
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:16,320
eso diría cosas como,

783
00:36:16,460 --> 00:36:17,420
si ves una luz roja,

784
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:17,960
detener.

785
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,180
Si hay una luz parpadeante, si hay dos líneas amarillas, haz esto.

786
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:22,500
Si hay un carril bici,

787
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:22,980
hacer esto.

788
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,520
Si hay un paso de peatones, hazlo.

789
00:36:25,020 --> 00:36:27,160
Bueno, eso es realmente difícil de hacer.

790
00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:29,620
Naly lo está haciendo a través de artificiales.

791
00:36:29,620 --> 00:36:32,020
Solo inteligencia y aprendizaje automático.

792
00:36:32,460 --> 00:36:36,400
FSD12 se basará en aproximadamente mil millones

793
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:37,480
marcos

794
00:36:38,140 --> 00:36:41,100
de Tesla cada semana de los conductores de Tesla y diciendo:

795
00:36:41,460 --> 00:36:43,360
¿Qué pasó cuando un humano estaba en esta situación?

796
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:44,420
¿Qué hizo el humano?

797
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:46,000
Y escojamos sólo a los mejores humanos,

798
00:36:46,180 --> 00:36:47,500
los conductores de cinco estrellas,

799
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,500
los conductores de Uber, como dice Elon.

800
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:56,160
Y entonces es él quien cambia de opinión y recurre a los primeros principios.

801
00:36:56,860 --> 00:36:57,620
pero diciendo,

802
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,400
Muy bien, incluso voy a cambiar la conducción totalmente autónoma.

803
00:37:01,060 --> 00:37:02,400
Entonces eso no se basa en reglas.

804
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,380
Se basa en la IA.

805
00:37:04,860 --> 00:37:08,700
Así como ChatGPT no intenta responder tu pregunta,

806
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:09,800
quienes son los cinco mejores

807
00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:13,040
papas o algo así estudiando?

808
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:19,960
ChatGPT lo hace habiendo ingerido miles de millones de

809
00:37:20,580 --> 00:37:22,520
escritos que la gente ha hecho.

810
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:23,980
Esta será la IA,

811
00:37:24,180 --> 00:37:26,400
pero el mundo real se hace mediante la ingesta de vídeo.

812
00:37:26,860 --> 00:37:30,260
A veces se siente como él y los demás,

813
00:37:31,180 --> 00:37:32,860
están construyendo cosas en este mundo con éxito,

814
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,900
básicamente están explorando con confianza una habitación oscura

815
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,320
con mucha confianza,

816
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,080
visión ambiciosa de cómo luce realmente esa habitación.

817
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,320
Simplemente están caminando directamente hacia la oscuridad.

818
00:37:49,180 --> 00:37:51,840
No hay juguetes dolorosos ni Legos en el suelo.

819
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,120
Sólo voy a caminar.

820
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:54,900
Sé exactamente a qué distancia está el muro.

821
00:37:55,580 --> 00:37:59,080
Y luego, muy rápidamente, dispuestos a adaptarse cuando se topan,

822
00:37:59,420 --> 00:38:00,180
ellos pisan el

823
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,460
Lego y su cuerpo están llenos de mucho dolor.

824
00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:09,400
Lo que quiero decir con esto es que hay este tipo de evolución que parece ocurrir donde

825
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,240
descubra ideas realmente buenas a lo largo del camino que le permitan girar.

826
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:15,260
Me gustas,

827
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,420
desde hace unos años,

828
00:38:20,460 --> 00:38:22,880
cuando pudiste ver con Andrei Karpathy,

829
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,000
la evolución del software 2.0 del piloto automático,

830
00:38:26,420 --> 00:38:29,740
Me resultó obvio que no se trata del coche.

831
00:38:30,540 --> 00:38:32,520
Se trata de Optimus, el robot.

832
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,640
Si miramos hacia atrás dentro de cien años,

833
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,820
el auto será recordado como un auto genial, buen transporte,

834
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,760
pero el piloto automático no

835
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,460
ser lo que controla el coche.

836
00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:50,300
Será lo que permita sistemas de IA incorporados.

837
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,540
para entender el mundo.

838
00:38:52,940 --> 00:38:53,560
En términos generales,

839
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:57,420
ese tipo de enfoque y te topas con

840
00:38:57,500 --> 00:38:57,700
él.

841
00:38:57,980 --> 00:39:00,620
¿Será Tesla una empresa de automóviles?

842
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:02,680
¿Será una empresa de IA?

843
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:04,580
¿Será una empresa de robótica?

844
00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:06,680
¿Será una empresa de robótica doméstica?

845
00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:08,260
¿Será una empresa de energía?

846
00:39:08,420 --> 00:39:09,440
Y luego tu tipo de

847
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:16,820
Descubra esto lentamente a medida que avanza con confianza con una visión.

848
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,880
Es interesante observar ese tipo de evolución siempre que esté respaldada por esta confianza.

849
00:39:22,010 --> 00:39:25,300
Hay un par de cosas que se requieren para eso.

850
00:39:25,620 --> 00:39:27,020
Uno es aventurero.

851
00:39:27,380 --> 00:39:32,800
Uno no entra en una habitación oscura sin una linterna y un mapa a menos que seas arriesgado, a menos que seas aventurero.

852
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:42,420
El segundo es tener ciclos cerebrales iterativos en los que puedas procesar información y hacer un ciclo de retroalimentación.

853
00:39:42,420 --> 00:39:43,080
y hacerlo funcionar.

854
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:49,880
El tercero, y esto es lo que no logramos hacer muchas veces en los Estados Unidos y quizás en todo el mundo,

855
00:39:50,940 --> 00:39:53,300
es cuando te arriesgas,

856
00:39:54,140 --> 00:39:56,260
Tienes que darte cuenta de que vas a hacer estallar las cosas.

857
00:39:57,980 --> 00:39:59,380
Primeros tres cohetes,

858
00:40:00,620 --> 00:40:02,520
los cohetes Falcon que hace la NASA,

859
00:40:03,260 --> 00:40:04,460
explotan.

860
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,400
Incluso Starship, tres minutos y medio,

861
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:08,160
pero luego explota la primera vez.

862
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,620
Por eso creo que Boeing, la NASA y otros se han convertido

863
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:18,880
no está dispuesto a entrar en su habitación oscura sin saber exactamente dónde está la salida

864
00:40:19,020 --> 00:40:21,000
y el camino iluminado hacia la salida.

865
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:25,820
Y las personas que crearon Estados Unidos cada vez que vinieron,

866
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:30,600
si el Mayflower son refugiados de los nazis,

867
00:40:31,260 --> 00:40:33,280
corrieron muchos riesgos para llegar aquí.

868
00:40:33,860 --> 00:40:36,140
Y ahora creo que tenemos

869
00:40:36,740 --> 00:40:40,220
más árbitros que tomadores de riesgos,

870
00:40:41,020 --> 00:40:45,600
más abogados y reguladores y otros

871
00:40:45,620 --> 00:40:47,620
decir que no puedes hacer eso, que es demasiado arriesgado,

872
00:40:48,140 --> 00:40:49,600
que personas dispuestas a innovar.

873
00:40:50,060 --> 00:40:50,720
Y necesitas ambos.

874
00:40:51,820 --> 00:40:55,060
Creo que también tienes razón en 50,

875
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,640
Dentro de 100 años,

876
00:40:57,860 --> 00:41:01,000
¿Por qué Musk será más recordado además?

877
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:02,100
viaje espacial

878
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,300
es la IA del mundo real.

879
00:41:05,780 --> 00:41:07,860
No sólo Optimus el robot,

880
00:41:08,020 --> 00:41:10,660
pero Optimus el robot y el coche autónomo,

881
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,440
son prácticamente iguales.

882
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:20,100
Están usando clústeres de GPU o chips dojo o lo que sea.

883
00:41:20,420 --> 00:41:22,020
para procesar datos del mundo real.

884
00:41:22,620 --> 00:41:24,840
Todos lo entendimos, y tú lo hiciste en tu podcast,

885
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,800
bastante entusiasmado con el modelo de lenguaje grande,

886
00:41:28,660 --> 00:41:32,300
IA de texto predictivo generativo.

887
00:41:32,980 --> 00:41:33,640
Está bien,

888
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,200
especialmente si quieres

889
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:36,640
Charle con su bot de chat.

890
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,980
Pero el Santo Grial es la inteligencia artificial general.

891
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,480
Y la parte difícil de eso es la IA del mundo real.

892
00:41:45,340 --> 00:41:52,680
Y creo que ahí es donde está Optimus el robot o la conducción autónoma total.

893
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:54,120
más adelante

894
00:41:54,660 --> 00:41:56,200
de cualquier otra persona.

895
00:41:57,580 --> 00:41:57,920
Bien,

896
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:00,340
Me gusta cómo dijiste charla.

897
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,320
Yo diría que para uno de los más grandes.

898
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:11,560
Como escritores, es curioso que hables del lenguaje y del dominio de los idiomas como una mera charla.

899
00:42:12,420 --> 00:42:14,600
La gente se ha enamorado de algunas palabras.

900
00:42:14,780 --> 00:42:16,260
La gente ha ido a la guerra por

901
00:42:16,260 --> 00:42:16,720
algunas palabras.

902
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,380
Creo que las palabras tienen mucho poder.

903
00:42:18,780 --> 00:42:21,040
En realidad es una pregunta interesante dónde

904
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,380
la sabiduría del mundo,

905
00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:26,460
La sabiduría de la humanidad está en palabras o en imágenes.

906
00:42:26,740 --> 00:42:27,380
¿Está en lo físico?

907
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,680
Realmente no... Es en matemáticas.

908
00:42:31,180 --> 00:42:33,060
Quizás todo se reduzca a matemáticas y al final,

909
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:35,780
este tipo de discusión sobre el mundo real

910
00:42:35,780 --> 00:42:38,660
Quizás la IA versus el lenguaje sean lo mismo.

911
00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:42,480
He tenido la oportunidad de pasar bastante tiempo

912
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,180
en el metaverso con el Sr.

913
00:42:44,260 --> 00:42:49,900
Mark Zuckerberg recientemente y vaya que hay realismo allí.

914
00:42:50,580 --> 00:42:54,640
Lo que vendrá en el futuro es increíble.

915
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,120
Me escanearon en Pittsburgh

916
00:42:59,900 --> 00:43:01,000
durante 10 horas.

917
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:08,660
Entré al metaverso y hay una versión virtual de mí y pude pasar el rato con esa versión virtual.

918
00:43:09,260 --> 00:43:10,160
¿Te gustas a ti mismo?

919
00:43:10,860 --> 00:43:12,960
Bueno, nunca me agrado a mí mismo,

920
00:43:14,020 --> 00:43:16,780
pero era más fácil que me gustara ese otro

921
00:43:17,460 --> 00:43:17,820
chico.

922
00:43:18,260 --> 00:43:19,020
Eso fue interesante.

923
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:19,920
¿Le gustas?

924
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,900
A él no parece importarle mucho.

925
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:24,960
Esa es la falta de empatía.

926
00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:32,500
Me hizo empezar a cuestionarme aún más que antes,

927
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,760
¿Qué importancia tiene esta realidad física?

928
00:43:36,860 --> 00:43:42,200
Porque pude verme a mí mismo y a otras personas en ese metaverso,

929
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:44,380
los detalles del rostro,

930
00:43:45,740 --> 00:43:49,220
todas las cosas que piensas,

931
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,240
tal vez si te miras en el espejo son imperfecciones,

932
00:43:52,260 --> 00:43:53,080
todo este tipo de cosas.

933
00:43:53,980 --> 00:43:55,880
Cuando me miraba a mí mismo y a los demás,

934
00:43:56,020 --> 00:43:57,200
todas esas cosas son hermosas.

935
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:57,760
Él

936
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:04,520
Fue real y fue intenso y fue aterrador porque

937
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:05,400
eres como,

938
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:06,480
bueno, ¿puedes hacerlo?

939
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:07,700
¿Asesinar gente en el metaverso?

940
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,440
Porque ¿qué se te permite hacer?

941
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:13,480
Porque puedes replicar

942
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:14,620
muchas de esas cosas y

943
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:19,360
empiezas a preguntarte cuáles son las cosas fundamentales que hacen la vida

944
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,440
Vale la pena vivir aquí ya que sabemos que son humanos.

945
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:24,680
¿Has hablado con Elon sobre sus puntos de vista sobre

946
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,220
¿Qué puede ser vivir en una simulación y cómo sabrías si eso es cierto?

947
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,020
Sí, hay una constante alegría,

948
00:44:31,140 --> 00:44:33,320
pero también un sentido serio

949
00:44:34,140 --> 00:44:35,720
que todo esto es un poco un juego.

950
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:37,420
Una de mis teorías.

951
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,760
sobre Elon, una teoría menor,

952
00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:43,720
es que leyó la Guía del autoestopista galáctico con demasiada frecuencia.

953
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:52,580
Como sabes, hay una escena allí que dice que hay una teoría sobre el universo.

954
00:44:53,060 --> 00:44:56,960
que si alguien alguna vez descubre los secretos de los significados del universo,

955
00:44:57,340 --> 00:44:58,420
será reemplazado

956
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,620
por un universo aún más complejo.

957
00:45:00,820 --> 00:45:03,440
Entonces la siguiente línea que escribe Douglas Adams es:

958
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,360
Hay otra teoría de que esto ya ha sucedido.

959
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,800
No estoy tratando de entender

960
00:45:08,820 --> 00:45:11,400
eso, pero sé que Elon Musk lo intenta.

961
00:45:11,780 --> 00:45:13,440
Hay algo de humor en eso.

962
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,440
Hay un enorme humor en La guía del autoestopista.

963
00:45:16,980 --> 00:45:21,780
Realmente creo que eso ayudó a Musk a salir del período más oscuro de sus períodos para tener

964
00:45:21,780 --> 00:45:24,800
la sensación de diversión de descubrir de qué se trata la vida.

965
00:45:25,140 --> 00:45:27,120
Me pregunto si hay un lado más pequeño que podríamos decir,

966
00:45:28,260 --> 00:45:32,440
simplemente habiendo llegado a conocer muy bien a Elon, la tontería,

967
00:45:33,460 --> 00:45:36,300
la voluntad de involucrarse en lo absurdo de todo

968
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:37,780
y divertirse.

969
00:45:38,940 --> 00:45:39,480
¿Qué es eso?

970
00:45:40,180 --> 00:45:44,400
¿Es sólo una peculiaridad de la personalidad o es una característica fundamental?

971
00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:47,960
aspecto de un ser humano que dirige más de seis empresas?

972
00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:50,900
Bueno, es una válvula de alivio como en el video.

973
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:53,080
juegos y politopía y Elden Ring,

974
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:54,660
una válvula de escape para él.

975
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,080
Tiene un sentido explosivo.

976
00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:00,360
de humor como ya sabes.

977
00:46:01,060 --> 00:46:04,680
Lo raro es cuando hace la transición abrupta.

978
00:46:05,220 --> 00:46:12,060
del modo demonio oscuro y estás en la sala de conferencias y él realmente se ha enojado por algo.

979
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,180
No sólo hay vibraciones oscuras,

980
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,500
pero hay palabras oscuras que emanan y él dice:

981
00:46:17,820 --> 00:46:20,560
se aceptará su renuncia si muere, etc.

982
00:46:21,740 --> 00:46:23,500
Entonces algo aparece

983
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:25,800
y saca su teléfono

984
00:46:26,340 --> 00:46:33,420
y saca una parodia de Bonnie Pythons como School of Silly Walks o cualquier John Cleese que fuera.

985
00:46:33,980 --> 00:46:36,440
Empieza a reírse de nuevo y las cosas se rompen.

986
00:46:39,020 --> 00:46:42,040
Es casi como si tuviera diferentes modos,

987
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,460
la emulación del modo humano, el modo ingeniería,

988
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,100
el modo oscuro y demonio,

989
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,900
y ciertamente existe el modo tonto y vertiginoso.

990
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:59,000
Sí, de hecho abriste el libro de Elon con citas de Elon y de Steve Jobs.

991
00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:00,880
Entonces la cita de Elon es,

992
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:01,980
a cualquiera a quien haya ofendido,

993
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:02,940
Solo quiero decir,

994
00:47:02,980 --> 00:47:03,920
esto es en SNL,

995
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:05,340
Solo quiero decir,

996
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,420
Reinventé los coches eléctricos y enviaré gente a Marte en un cohete.

997
00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:12,680
¿También pensaste que iba a ser un tipo tranquilo y normal?

998
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:14,520
Y luego la cita de Steve Jobs,

999
00:47:14,540 --> 00:47:20,620
Por supuesto, las personas que están lo suficientemente locas como para pensar que pueden cambiar el mundo son las que lo hacen.

1000
00:47:21,290 --> 00:47:25,840
Entonces, ¿cuál crees que es el papel de los viejos?

1001
00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:27,840
¿Locura y genio?

1002
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:29,120
¿Cuál crees que es el

1003
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,280
papel de loco en esto?

1004
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:30,760
Bien,

1005
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,620
En primer lugar, estipulemos ambos que Musk está loco a veces.

1006
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:37,180
Quiero decir, y

1007
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,380
entonces averigüemos,

1008
00:47:40,980 --> 00:47:44,540
y trato de hacerlo a través de la narración, no a través de hipílicas

1009
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:45,680
y predicando,

1010
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,860
donde funciona esa locura.

1011
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:51,280
Dame una historia,

1012
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:52,120
cuéntame una anécdota,

1013
00:47:52,260 --> 00:47:53,100
Dime dónde está loco.

1014
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,160
Y el ejemplo casi final,

1015
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,640
AI, pero él disparando Starship por primera vez,

1016
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,260
entre una cuenta regresiva abortada y el desempate,

1017
00:48:06,260 --> 00:48:08,680
va a Miami a una conferencia sobre ventas de publicidad y

1018
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,460
conoce a Linda Iaccarino por primera vez,

1019
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:11,400
la convierte en directora ejecutiva.

1020
00:48:11,740 --> 00:48:13,340
Quiero decir, hay mucha impulsividad para

1021
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:13,640
a él.

1022
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:14,460
Luego vuela de regreso,

1023
00:48:14,940 --> 00:48:22,380
Lanzan Starship y te das cuenta de que hay un disco y hay

1024
00:48:22,380 --> 00:48:24,000
demonios y también hay locura.

1025
00:48:26,860 --> 00:48:29,940
Y a veces quieres sacarlos.

1026
00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:31,700
Quieres quitarle el

1027
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:33,800
teléfono para no twittear a las 3 a.m.

1028
00:48:34,220 --> 00:48:35,540
Tu quieres decir,

1029
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:36,720
deja de estar tan loco.

1030
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:38,960
Pero luego te das cuenta

1031
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,300
hay una maravillosa línea de Shakespeare en Medida por medida al final.

1032
00:48:43,820 --> 00:48:44,320
Él dice,

1033
00:48:44,620 --> 00:48:47,740
Incluso los mejores se moldean a partir de defectos.

1034
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,580
Y entonces tomas las faltas de Musk,

1035
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,380
por ejemplo, que incluye una locura que puede resultar entrañable,

1036
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,340
pero también locura que es como una maldita locura,

1037
00:49:00,210 --> 00:49:04,480
así como este modo de conducción y demonio.

1038
00:49:05,860 --> 00:49:09,280
No sé si se puede sacar ese hilo de la tela.

1039
00:49:09,820 --> 00:49:11,160
y la tela queda entera.

1040
00:49:13,060 --> 00:49:13,600
Me pregunto,

1041
00:49:14,740 --> 00:49:20,000
A veces me entristece que vivamos en una sociedad que no celebra ni siquiera el

1042
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:21,300
aspectos más oscuros de la locura

1043
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,840
al reconocer que todo viene en un solo paquete.

1044
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,520
Es el hombre en la arena versus el crítico.

1045
00:49:28,060 --> 00:49:31,960
Y el hombre en la arena versus el regulador para hacerlo más prosaico.

1046
00:49:35,090 --> 00:49:38,180
Bueno, déjame preguntarte no sólo sobre la locura, sino también sobre la crueldad.

1047
00:49:38,780 --> 00:49:42,660
Así que has escrito un informe sobre Steve Jobs.

1048
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,380
Te dijeron que la gran pregunta que debías hacer era:

1049
00:49:46,060 --> 00:49:47,920
¿Tenía que ser tan malo?

1050
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,900
tan rudo y cruel,

1051
00:49:50,420 --> 00:49:51,500
¿Tan adicto al drama?

1052
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,960
¿Cuál es esta respuesta para Steve Jobs?

1053
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,300
¿Tenía que ser tan cruel?

1054
00:49:56,660 --> 00:49:57,220
Para trabajos,

1055
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:00,080
Pregunté Fue al final de mi informe,

1056
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,060
porque eso es lo que dijo al principio,

1057
00:50:02,820 --> 00:50:04,800
estamos haciendo el lanzamiento de, creo

1058
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:08,040
el iPad 2, puede haber sido.

1059
00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:10,520
Steve está demacrado porque

1060
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:12,300
ha estado enfermo.

1061
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:13,980
Y entonces le digo a Was,

1062
00:50:14,020 --> 00:50:15,100
cual es la respuesta a tu pregunta?

1063
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,400
Y él dijo, bueno, si hubiera estado ejecutando Apple,

1064
00:50:18,180 --> 00:50:19,500
Habría sido más amable con todos.

1065
00:50:19,660 --> 00:50:20,760
Todo el mundo se quedó estancado.

1066
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:21,940
Hemos sido como una familia.

1067
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,220
Y luego no sé si sabes que era,

1068
00:50:24,220 --> 00:50:25,100
es como un osito de peluche.

1069
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:26,560
Hizo una pausa, sonrió y dijo:

1070
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:28,080
pero si hubiera estado ejecutando Apple,

1071
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,300
No creo que hubiéramos hecho el Macintosh o el iPhone.

1072
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,780
Así que sí,

1073
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:35,120
tienes que

1074
00:50:36,540 --> 00:50:37,640
a veces

1075
00:50:38,620 --> 00:50:39,260
ser rudo.

1076
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,300
Y Jobs dijo lo mismo que Must me dijo a mí:

1077
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:44,380
que es lo que dijo,

1078
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,080
A la gente como tú le encanta usar guantes de terciopelo.

1079
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,240
Ahora no sé si he usado guantes de terciopelo a menudo.

1080
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:52,400
pero te gusta agradarle a la gente,

1081
00:50:52,420 --> 00:50:53,920
te gusta hablar dulcemente,

1082
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:54,300
endulzas las cosas.

1083
00:50:54,480 --> 00:51:00,320
Él dice: Soy sólo un niño de clase trabajadora y no tengo ese lujo.

1084
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:02,780
Si algo apesta, tengo que decírselo a la gente.

1085
00:51:03,180 --> 00:51:04,640
O tengo un equipo de jugadores B.

1086
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:06,280
Bueno, Musk es así.

1087
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:06,580
también.

1088
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,400
Y volvemos a lo que dije antes,

1089
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:10,500
que es, sí,

1090
00:51:11,020 --> 00:51:13,040
Probablemente usaría terciopelo

1091
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,400
guantes si pudiera encontrarlos en mi mercería.

1092
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,000
Y trato de endulzar las cosas.

1093
00:51:19,060 --> 00:51:21,400
Pero cuando dirigía CNN,

1094
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:23,820
necesitaba ser remodelado.

1095
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:25,200
Era necesario romperlo.

1096
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,680
Necesitaba volar ciertas cosas.

1097
00:51:28,180 --> 00:51:29,840
Y no lo hice.

1098
00:51:31,060 --> 00:51:33,500
Fue muy malo para mí, pero me hizo darme cuenta.

1099
00:51:33,700 --> 00:51:35,940
Está bien, solo escribiré sobre las personas que pueden hacerlo.

1100
00:51:36,180 --> 00:51:37,880
Bueno, eso de decir,

1101
00:51:38,340 --> 00:51:39,500
Creo que probablemente ambos,

1102
00:51:39,620 --> 00:51:41,440
pero Elon ciertamente dice cosas

1103
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,380
Eso es lo más estúpido que he oído jamás.

1104
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,400
Por cierto, escuché a Jeff Bezos decir eso.

1105
00:51:47,580 --> 00:51:48,900
He oído a Bill Gates decir eso.

1106
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:50,800
He oído a Steve Jobs decirlo.

1107
00:51:50,940 --> 00:51:53,420
Escuché a Steve Jobs decir eso sobre un batido.

1108
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,000
Lo estaban convirtiendo en una fruta entera o algo así.

1109
00:51:55,660 --> 00:51:59,040
Usan la palabra estúpido muy a menudo.

1110
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:00,660
¿Y sabes quién más lo usó?

1111
00:52:00,860 --> 00:52:01,500
Errol Musk.

1112
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:02,560
Siguió horneando.

1113
00:52:02,780 --> 00:52:04,580
Elon se para frente a él y le dice:

1114
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:05,620
eso es lo más estúpido.

1115
00:52:05,740 --> 00:52:06,980
Eres la persona más estúpida.

1116
00:52:07,180 --> 00:52:08,440
Nunca llegarás a nada.

1117
00:52:11,460 --> 00:52:12,640
No sé.

1118
00:52:13,900 --> 00:52:17,060
Como dijo John McNeil, el presidente de Tesla,

1119
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:19,000
¿tienes que ser así?

1120
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:20,600
Probablemente no.

1121
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,340
Hay muchos exitosos.

1122
00:52:22,380 --> 00:52:24,140
gente que es mucho más amable,

1123
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:26,040
pero

1124
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:32,180
a veces es necesario

1125
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,400
para ser mucho más brutalmente honesto,

1126
00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:37,820
Yo diría,

1127
00:52:38,540 --> 00:52:44,060
que personas como quienes son los trofeos de jefe del año.

1128
00:52:45,140 --> 00:52:46,880
Bueno, como dijiste, este tipo de idea

1129
00:52:47,420 --> 00:52:48,840
También envió una señal.

1130
00:52:49,300 --> 00:52:51,040
Esta idea de Steve Jobs de ocho jugadores,

1131
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:52,720
envió una señal a todos.

1132
00:52:54,220 --> 00:52:56,820
Fue una especie de estímulo para la gente que está ahí.

1133
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:57,740
Bien.

1134
00:52:57,740 --> 00:52:58,700
Y eso le pasó a Twitter.

1135
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,460
Cuando fuimos a la sede de Twitter el día anterior

1136
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,880
la adquisición, estaba teniendo

1137
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:09,420
Andrew y James, sus dos primos jóvenes y otras personas de

1138
00:53:09,420 --> 00:53:12,200
el equipo de piloto automático, repasando líneas de código.

1139
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,500
Y el propio Musk se sentó allí con una computadora portátil encendida.

1140
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:15,520
el segundo piso del edificio,

1141
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,100
mirando las líneas de código escritas por los ingenieros de Twitter.

1142
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:25,240
Y decidieron que iban a despedir al 85% de ellos porque

1143
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:26,100
Tenía que estar todo dentro.

1144
00:53:26,260 --> 00:53:29,880
Y esta noción de seguridad psicológica y días libres mentales y

1145
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:32,400
trabajando de forma remota, dijo,

1146
00:53:32,980 --> 00:53:33,060
cualquiera.

1147
00:53:33,620 --> 00:53:33,940
Y luego

1148
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,500
surgió, en realidad uno de los suyos,

1149
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:39,400
creo que fue uno

1150
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:45,180
de los primos o tal vez a Ross Nordine se le ocurrió la idea de no seamos tan rudos y

1151
00:53:45,180 --> 00:53:46,360
Simplemente despida a toda esta gente.

1152
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,240
Preguntémosles, ¿de verdad quieres participar?

1153
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:50,440
Porque esto va a ser duro.

1154
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:51,640
Va a ser intenso.

1155
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:53,140
Puedes elegir,

1156
00:53:53,340 --> 00:53:55,900
pero antes de la medianoche de esta noche queremos que marques la casilla.

1157
00:53:56,580 --> 00:53:59,000
Soy incondicional, con todo, estaré allí en persona,

1158
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,880
Trabajaré, sabes, o eso no es para mí.

1159
00:54:02,180 --> 00:54:03,420
tengo una familia,

1160
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:04,300
tengo saldo laboral

1161
00:54:05,620 --> 00:54:08,460
y tienes diferentes tipos de personas de esa manera y diferentes

1162
00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:09,620
etapas de su vida.

1163
00:54:09,780 --> 00:54:13,900
Yo era un poco más duro y estaba totalmente involucrado cuando tenía veintitantos años y cuando

1164
00:54:13,900 --> 00:54:15,860
Tenía, ya sabes, unos cincuenta años.

1165
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:16,520
Sí.

1166
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:17,420
Y escribes sobre esto

1167
00:54:18,020 --> 00:54:19,460
realmente buena idea,

1168
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:20,860
que hay dos campos

1169
00:54:21,420 --> 00:54:23,100
y lo descubres,

1170
00:54:23,180 --> 00:54:25,100
No lo sé, me pregunto qué tan cierto es esto.

1171
00:54:25,100 --> 00:54:26,340
Suena cierto.

1172
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:27,880
Puedes preguntarle a la gente,

1173
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:28,980
¿En qué campamento estás?

1174
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,980
¿Eres el tipo de persona que se valora a sí misma?

1175
00:54:32,100 --> 00:54:34,860
que disfrutan de quedarse despiertos hasta las 2 a.m.

1176
00:54:35,180 --> 00:54:36,240
programación o lo que sea?

1177
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,160
¿O ves el valor de comillas entre comillas?

1178
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:40,740
ya sabes, sobre la vida,

1179
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:42,680
equilibrio entre el trabajo y la vida, todo este tipo de cosas.

1180
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:43,420
Y

1181
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:44,340
es interesante.

1182
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:44,900
Quiero decir,

1183
00:54:46,260 --> 00:54:47,000
como podrías,

1184
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,780
Las personas probablemente se dividen en diferentes etapas de la vida y

1185
00:54:50,780 --> 00:54:55,700
puedes simplemente preguntarles y tiene sentido para ciertas empresas en ciertas etapas de su

1186
00:54:55,740 --> 00:54:56,820
desarrollo para ser como,

1187
00:54:56,820 --> 00:54:57,980
Sólo queremos gente incondicional.

1188
00:54:57,980 --> 00:54:58,300
O ciertos equipos.

1189
00:54:58,500 --> 00:54:59,700
Ni siquiera tiene que ser toda una empresa.

1190
00:55:00,380 --> 00:55:00,980
Y tienes razón.

1191
00:55:01,580 --> 00:55:03,660
Se remonta a lo que estaba diciendo sobre el gobierno.

1192
00:55:04,020 --> 00:55:06,260
El primer secreto es algo así como saberlo.

1193
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:11,680
tú obviamente vienes de Platón y todo viene de Platón y Sócrates,

1194
00:55:13,020 --> 00:55:15,220
pero y

1195
00:55:16,020 --> 00:55:18,000
decidir en esta etapa de mi vida.

1196
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,260
¿Quiero, quiero ser un hackathon durante toda la noche?

1197
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:23,860
y cambiar el mundo?

1198
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:24,600
¿O quiero

1199
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,040
para traer sabiduría y estabilidad,

1200
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:28,380
pero también tiene equilibrio?

1201
00:55:29,060 --> 00:55:30,500
Creo que es bueno tener

1202
00:55:30,690 --> 00:55:33,260
diferentes empresas con diferentes estilos.

1203
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,280
El problema era que Twitter estaba casi en un extremo.

1204
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:45,360
con estudios de yoga y días libres de salud mental y consagrando la seguridad psicológica como uno de los

1205
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,940
mantras que dicen que las personas nunca deberían sentirse psicológicamente amenazadas.

1206
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,560
Y él, recuerdo la risa amarga que él

1207
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:53,240
desatado cuando seguía escuchando esa palabra.

1208
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:55,800
Él dijo, no, me gustan las palabras duro.

1209
00:55:56,260 --> 00:55:57,200
Me gusta la intensidad.

1210
00:55:57,660 --> 00:56:03,060
Me gusta un intenso sentido de urgencia como nuestro principio operativo.

1211
00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:05,140
Bueno, sí, hay gente que

1212
00:56:05,140 --> 00:56:05,760
manera también.

1213
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,820
Y así saber quién eres y saber qué tipo de equipo quieres formar.

1214
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,840
Contra la seguridad psicológica y demasiados pájaros por todas partes.

1215
00:56:13,340 --> 00:56:13,760
Oh sí.

1216
00:56:14,020 --> 00:56:17,160
Muchas veces Musk hacía cosas y yo decía, ¿qué diablos?

1217
00:56:18,140 --> 00:56:19,340
Y entre ellos estaba cambiando

1218
00:56:19,340 --> 00:56:21,140
el nombre Twitter y deshacerse de los pájaros.

1219
00:56:21,260 --> 00:56:21,840
Dije, Hola hombre,

1220
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:23,760
Se ha invertido mucho en esa marca.

1221
00:56:24,580 --> 00:56:25,700
Pero cuando lo miré,

1222
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,740
pensó, está bien, estos dulces pajaritos alegres que twittean en nombre de Twitter,

1223
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,200
no es duro.

1224
00:56:34,380 --> 00:56:35,420
No es intenso.

1225
00:56:35,980 --> 00:56:38,040
Y así, para bien o para mal,

1226
00:56:38,660 --> 00:56:40,120
creo que esta tomando actos

1227
00:56:41,140 --> 00:56:47,080
en el reino del hardcore con gente que publica cosas hardcore,

1228
00:56:47,580 --> 00:56:49,460
con personas con puntos de vista incondicionales.

1229
00:56:50,380 --> 00:56:50,940
Que no es

1230
00:56:52,060 --> 00:56:54,140
un educado

1231
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:59,720
parque para los cuadros azules

1232
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,180
élite ungida.

1233
00:57:04,140 --> 00:57:05,600
Y pensé, está bien, esto va a ser malo.

1234
00:57:05,620 --> 00:57:06,700
Todo se va a desmoronar.

1235
00:57:06,780 --> 00:57:08,300
Pues ha tenido problemas,

1236
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:14,340
pero su intensa intensidad también ha significado que están sucediendo cosas nuevas allí.

1237
00:57:14,460 --> 00:57:21,920
Así que es muy de Elon Musk que no le guste esta dulzura de los pájaros cantando, twitteando y diciendo:

1238
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:23,660
Quiero algo más duro.

1239
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:30,140
Como ha escrito refiriéndose al anterior director ejecutivo de Twitter,

1240
00:57:30,620 --> 00:57:34,660
Elon dijo que Twitter necesita un dragón que escupe fuego.

1241
00:57:35,620 --> 00:57:38,520
Creo que esta es una buena oportunidad para tal vez

1242
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:43,400
Repase algunos de los momentos memorables de la saga de Twitter sobre los que ha escrito extensamente.

1243
00:57:43,740 --> 00:57:44,340
en tu libro,

1244
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:50,680
desde los primeros días de considerar la adquisición hasta cómo pasó hasta el

1245
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,100
Detalles de, como mencionaste, los equipos de ingeniería.

1246
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,830
Bueno, a principios de 2022,

1247
00:57:57,300 --> 00:57:58,620
él estaba en lo alto,

1248
00:57:59,180 --> 00:57:59,800
pero como decimos,

1249
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:00,720
es un adicto al drama.

1250
00:58:00,900 --> 00:58:02,080
No le gusta el fantasma.

1251
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,540
Y Tesla vendió un millón de vehículos.

1252
00:58:05,740 --> 00:58:07,700
Creo que 33 refuerzos,

1253
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,220
Los Falcon 9 han sido disparados y

1254
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:13,980
aterrizó de manera segura en los últimos meses.

1255
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:20,940
Y era la persona más rica del mundo y la persona del año.

1256
00:58:21,700 --> 00:58:22,280
Y todavía,

1257
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,240
había dicho, todavía quiero poner todas mis fichas sobre la mesa.

1258
00:58:27,300 --> 00:58:28,560
Quiero seguir arriesgándome.

1259
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:30,520
No quiero saborear las cosas.

1260
00:58:31,060 --> 00:58:32,360
Había vendido todas sus casas.

1261
00:58:33,180 --> 00:58:36,320
Entonces comienza a comprar acciones de Twitter en secreto.

1262
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,780
Enero, febrero y marzo se hacen públicos en un momento determinado.

1263
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:42,520
No sé si debería declararlo.

1264
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:45,800
Y estábamos aquí en Austin

1265
00:58:46,620 --> 00:58:48,600
en Gigafactory en el entresuelo.

1266
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:50,960
Y él estaba tratando de descubrir,

1267
00:58:51,140 --> 00:58:52,200
Bueno, ¿a dónde voy desde aquí?

1268
00:58:53,140 --> 00:58:55,300
Y en ese momento, a principios de abril,

1269
00:58:55,940 --> 00:58:59,880
le iban a ofrecer un puesto en la junta directiva y él iba a hacer un acuerdo de suspensión de pagos.

1270
00:58:59,980 --> 00:59:01,680
y detenerse en el 10% o algo así.

1271
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:04,440
Ahora recuerda, estábamos parados.

1272
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:05,500
Era Luke Nozick.

1273
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:06,580
a quien conoces bien,

1274
00:59:07,020 --> 00:59:07,920
Ken Halry,

1275
00:59:08,300 --> 00:59:10,600
algunos de sus amigos en ese entresuelo de aquí.

1276
00:59:11,340 --> 00:59:12,620
Y toda la tarde y luego

1277
00:59:12,620 --> 00:59:14,260
hasta altas horas de la noche en la cena

1278
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,000
es como, ¿deberíamos hacer esto?

1279
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:18,600
Y no dije nada.

1280
00:59:18,660 --> 00:59:19,740
Soy sólo el observador.

1281
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:21,180
Pero todos los demás dicen:

1282
00:59:21,460 --> 00:59:23,860
Disculpe, ¿por qué quiere ser dueño de Twitter?

1283
00:59:24,940 --> 00:59:25,900
Y Griffin, su hijo,

1284
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:27,340
se unió a la cena.

1285
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,480
Y May, por alguna razón, estaba en la ciudad.

1286
00:59:30,380 --> 00:59:32,960
Y como todo el mundo dice, no, no usamos Twitter.

1287
00:59:32,980 --> 00:59:34,000
¿Por qué harías eso?

1288
00:59:34,660 --> 00:59:36,060
Y May dijo, bueno, uso Twitter.

1289
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:37,680
Y es casi como, está bien,

1290
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,320
los datos demográficos son personas de mi edad o la edad de May.

1291
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:43,580
Y así se veía

1292
00:59:43,580 --> 00:59:45,460
como si no fuera a seguir adelante.

1293
00:59:45,700 --> 00:59:47,160
Le ofrecieron un puesto en la junta directiva.

1294
00:59:48,860 --> 00:59:51,780
Y luego se fue a

1295
00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:56,240
Hawaii a la casa de Larry Ellison,

1296
00:59:56,660 --> 00:59:57,780
que a veces utiliza.

1297
00:59:58,280 --> 00:59:59,260
Estaba con un amigo,

1298
00:59:59,420 --> 01:00:01,060
Ángela Bassett, actriz.

1299
01:00:01,940 --> 01:00:05,180
Y en lugar de disfrutar de tres días de vacaciones,

1300
01:00:06,060 --> 01:00:07,640
él simplemente se sobrealimentó

1301
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,780
y comencé a enviar mensajes de texto,

1302
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,620
incluido el del dragón que escupe fuego.

1303
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:13,960
Creo

1304
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:19,140
Usó esa frase varias veces de que Parag no era la persona que iba a tomar Twitter.

1305
01:00:19,660 --> 01:00:20,440
a un nuevo nivel.

1306
01:00:21,180 --> 01:00:23,320
Y cuando llegue a Vancouver,

1307
01:00:23,540 --> 01:00:24,740
donde Grimes lo encuentra,

1308
01:00:25,260 --> 01:00:27,420
Se quedan despiertos toda la noche jugando a Elden Ring.

1309
01:00:27,820 --> 01:00:29,020
Estaba dando una charla TED.

1310
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,060
Y luego a las 5.30,

1311
01:00:32,060 --> 01:00:33,820
termina de jugar a Elden Ring y

1312
01:00:33,820 --> 01:00:35,820
envía que he hecho una oferta.

1313
01:00:37,060 --> 01:00:38,440
Incluso cuando regrese,

1314
01:00:39,020 --> 01:00:40,320
la gente está tratando de intervenir

1315
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,460
y decir, perdón, ¿por qué lo haces?

1316
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,040
Y así fue un período difícil entre finales

1317
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,600
Abril y octubre cuando se cerró el trato.

1318
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:51,200
Y la gente me pregunta todo el tiempo,

1319
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:53,000
Bueno, ¿quería salirse del trato?

1320
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:53,520
Yo dije,

1321
01:00:53,900 --> 01:00:56,200
¿De qué Elon estás hablando y a qué hora del día?

1322
01:00:56,620 --> 01:00:58,140
Porque habrá momentos en la mañana

1323
01:00:58,720 --> 01:00:59,640
cuando él decía, oh,

1324
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:01,420
el tribunal de Delaware va a

1325
01:01:01,420 --> 01:01:02,180
obligarme a hacerlo.

1326
01:01:02,220 --> 01:01:02,900
Es horrible.

1327
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:04,260
Habla con sus abogados.

1328
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:05,320
Puedes ganar este caso.

1329
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:06,380
Sácame de esto.

1330
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,820
Se reunió aquí en Austin con tres o cuatro banqueros de inversión,

1331
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:15,780
Blair Efron en Centerview, Bob Steele en Pirella Weinberg.

1332
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:17,300
Y le ofrecieron opciones.

1333
01:01:17,380 --> 01:01:18,080
¿Quieres salir?

1334
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:18,940
¿Quieres quedarte en?

1335
01:01:18,940 --> 01:01:20,040
¿Quieres reducir el precio?

1336
01:01:21,300 --> 01:01:22,380
Y creo que el era

1337
01:01:22,750 --> 01:01:23,200
mercurial.

1338
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:26,380
Hubo momentos en que me enviaba mensajes de texto o me decía:

1339
01:01:26,860 --> 01:01:27,900
Esto va a ser genial.

1340
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:29,460
va a ser el acelerador

1341
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,580
hacer x.com como pensábamos hace 20 años.

1342
01:01:35,620 --> 01:01:37,180
Y así no es hasta que

1343
01:01:37,180 --> 01:01:39,040
finalmente decirle a principios de octubre,

1344
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,040
justo cuando se presenta Optimus el robot

1345
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,520
en California en realidad,

1346
01:01:45,820 --> 01:01:46,360
que dice el abogado,

1347
01:01:46,420 --> 01:01:49,120
Probablemente no ganes este caso, pero

1348
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:51,080
Será mejor seguir adelante con el trato.

1349
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,060
Y para entonces no sólo habrá hecho las paces con ello,

1350
01:01:55,060 --> 01:01:57,000
él está algo contento con eso en ese momento.

1351
01:01:57,780 --> 01:01:58,560
Eventualmente,

1352
01:01:58,940 --> 01:02:01,220
el trato se va a cerrar

1353
01:02:01,980 --> 01:02:04,400
creo que un viernes

1354
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:04,940
mañana.

1355
01:02:04,940 --> 01:02:05,960
Lo tengo en el libro.

1356
01:02:06,580 --> 01:02:10,100
Y estamos allí el jueves y él está deambulando mirando

1357
01:02:10,100 --> 01:02:11,740
la estancia despertó camisetas y

1358
01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:15,900
jerga de seguridad psicológica que todos están usando.

1359
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:18,060
Y él y sus abogados.

1360
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:21,900
y los banqueros idearon un plan para lograr un cierre repentino.

1361
01:02:23,180 --> 01:02:25,020
Y la razón de eso fue

1362
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:27,420
si cierran el trato

1363
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,740
después de que los mercados hubieran cerrado por el día,

1364
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:35,300
y podría enviar una carta a Parag y a otros dos,

1365
01:02:35,940 --> 01:02:37,680
despedirlos citando por una causa,

1366
01:02:38,300 --> 01:02:40,240
y esto será algo que los tribunales tendrán que resolver,

1367
01:02:41,660 --> 01:02:43,760
entonces podría ahorrar unos 200 millones.

1368
01:02:44,100 --> 01:02:45,340
Y fue tanto el dinero,

1369
01:02:45,500 --> 01:02:46,420
pero para él un asunto,

1370
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:48,280
No diré de principio, sino de,

1371
01:02:49,100 --> 01:02:49,260
ey,

1372
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:51,260
Me engañaron sobre los números.

1373
01:02:51,300 --> 01:02:52,820
Me obligaron a hacerlo.

1374
01:02:53,300 --> 01:03:00,380
Así que voy a probar esta maniobra de jujitsu y podré sacarles algo de dinero.

1375
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:01,860
Luego, cuando él asuma el control,

1376
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:03,620
Es una especie de escena salvaje.

1377
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,440
Él tratando de decidir en tres diferentes

1378
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,960
redondea cómo reducir el personal al 15% de lo que era.

1379
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:13,260
Él decidiendo en Nochebuena,

1380
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:15,020
después de haber estado en una reunión

1381
01:03:15,980 --> 01:03:20,080
donde le dijeron que no podemos deshacernos de esa granja de servidores de Sacramento, porque

1382
01:03:20,780 --> 01:03:22,260
es necesaria una redundancia.

1383
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:23,680
Él dice, no, no lo es.

1384
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:25,900
Y está volando aquí a Austin.

1385
01:03:27,260 --> 01:03:28,100
Y el joven James dice:

1386
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:29,220
¿Por qué no lo hacemos nosotros mismos?

1387
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:30,420
Él hace girar el avión,

1388
01:03:30,460 --> 01:03:33,120
Aterrizan en Sacramento y él mismo los saca.

1389
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:34,800
Entonces fue un período maníaco.

1390
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,620
También deberíamos decir que debajo de eso,

1391
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:38,500
había

1392
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:43,180
un deseo corriente de o consideración de tal vez

1393
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:44,580
empezar de nuevo

1394
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:48,340
empresa para construir una empresa de redes sociales desde cero.

1395
01:03:48,820 --> 01:03:50,080
Bueno, Kimball quería hacer eso.

1396
01:03:50,140 --> 01:03:52,960
Y Kimball aquí en un maravilloso restaurante en Austin,

1397
01:03:53,140 --> 01:03:54,040
en el almuerzo es como, oye,

1398
01:03:54,860 --> 01:03:55,780
¿Por qué estás comprando Twitter?

1399
01:03:56,220 --> 01:03:58,880
Comencemos uno desde cero y hagámoslo en blockchain.

1400
01:03:59,820 --> 01:04:01,380
Ahora le tomó un tiempo,

1401
01:04:01,380 --> 01:04:03,160
y puedes argumentarlo de una forma u otra,

1402
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:08,040
llegar a la conclusión de que blockchain no era lo suficientemente rápido

1403
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:12,140
y tiempo de respuesta suficiente para poder manejar mil millones de tweets

1404
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:13,500
en un día más o menos.

1405
01:04:14,580 --> 01:04:18,360
Se enoja cuando siguen intentando que hable con Sam Bankman Fried.

1406
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:19,620
¿Quién está tratando de decir?

1407
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:21,760
Invertiré, pero tenemos que hacerlo en blockchain.

1408
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:28,720
Kimball todavía está a favor de iniciar uno nuevo y hacerlo en base a blockchain.

1409
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:31,300
En retrospectiva,

1410
01:04:32,660 --> 01:04:33,100
Creo

1411
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,640
Hubiera sido mejor iniciar una nueva empresa de medios.

1412
01:04:35,660 --> 01:04:36,900
No habría tenido el equipaje.

1413
01:04:37,620 --> 01:04:38,140
o

1414
01:04:38,660 --> 01:04:44,240
el legado que está rompiendo ahora al romper la forma en que había sido Twitter.

1415
01:04:44,660 --> 01:04:47,140
Pero es difícil tener

1416
01:04:47,140 --> 01:04:49,660
millones y millones, cientos de millones de

1417
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,460
verdaderos usuarios, no sólo trolls,

1418
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:55,520
y empezar desde cero como

1419
01:04:55,640 --> 01:05:01,860
Otros han encontrado, como Macedonia y Blue Sky, hilos y ningún hilo tenía siquiera una base.

1420
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:03,220
Entonces hubiera sido difícil.

1421
01:05:04,140 --> 01:05:07,330
Sí. Y para hacer eso de la forma en que lo hizo se requiere

1422
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,020
otra parte que escribes con los tres mosqueteros

1423
01:05:11,020 --> 01:05:12,020
y toda la ingeniería,

1424
01:05:12,940 --> 01:05:15,600
el despido y la incorporación de los ingenieros

1425
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:17,360
para intentar ser algo duro.

1426
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,040
Así que hay muchas preguntas interesantes que hacer allí,

1427
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:21,700
pero el alto nivel,

1428
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:26,980
¿Puedes comentar sobre esa parte de la saga, que es

1429
01:05:28,140 --> 01:05:29,240
traer a los ingenieros

1430
01:05:29,460 --> 01:05:31,120
y viendo como, ¿qué podemos hacer aquí?

1431
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:32,220
Bien.

1432
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:34,920
Llamó a los ingenieros y pensó

1433
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:38,380
que la cantidad de gente que hace Tesla,

1434
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,260
Piloto automático completo y todo el software.

1435
01:05:41,260 --> 01:05:46,240
había alrededor de una décima parte de lo que se hacía software para Twitter.

1436
01:05:46,380 --> 01:05:47,940
Y él dijo, este no puede ser el caso.

1437
01:05:48,660 --> 01:05:49,080
Y

1438
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,280
disparó al 85% en tres rondas diferentes.

1439
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:53,140
El primero fue

1440
01:05:54,180 --> 01:05:56,100
simplemente despidiendo gente porque

1441
01:05:56,100 --> 01:06:02,060
Miraron la codificación y tenían un equipo de personas del equipo del piloto automático de Tesla calificando

1442
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:06,140
los códigos de todo lo que se escribió en el último año.

1443
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,580
Luego despidió a la gente que no

1444
01:06:09,580 --> 01:06:11,760
parecen estar totalmente comprometidos o ser leales.

1445
01:06:12,260 --> 01:06:14,220
Y luego otra ronda de despidos.

1446
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:19,280
Entonces, en cada paso del camino,

1447
01:06:19,780 --> 01:06:21,320
casi todos dijeron, ya es suficiente.

1448
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:23,240
Va a destruir cosas.

1449
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:27,080
Desde Alex Spiro, su abogado hasta Jared Burchill,

1450
01:06:27,580 --> 01:06:28,480
Él dice, espera, espera, espera.

1451
01:06:29,300 --> 01:06:30,940
E incluso Andrew y James,

1452
01:06:30,940 --> 01:06:35,440
los primos jóvenes que tienen la tarea de hacer una lista y descubrir quién es bueno o malo,

1453
01:06:35,580 --> 01:06:36,480
digamos que ya hemos hecho suficiente.

1454
01:06:36,500 --> 01:06:38,440
Estaremos en verdaderos problemas.

1455
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,340
Y en parte tenían razón.

1456
01:06:41,620 --> 01:06:45,460
Quiero decir, hubo alguna degradación del servicio,

1457
01:06:46,460 --> 01:06:46,580
pero

1458
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:50,300
no tanto como la mitad de los servicios que uso la mitad del tiempo.

1459
01:06:51,060 --> 01:06:51,260
Y

1460
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:53,940
Me despierto cada mañana y

1461
01:06:54,900 --> 01:06:57,060
Pulsa la aplicación y está bien, todavía ahí.

1462
01:06:57,420 --> 01:06:57,780
¿Qué opinas?

1463
01:06:57,780 --> 01:06:58,540
¿Eso fue demasiado?

1464
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:04,920
Creo que tiene un algoritmo que mencionamos anteriormente que comienza cuestionando cada requisito,

1465
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:07,160
pero depende de él borrar, borrar,

1466
01:07:07,460 --> 01:07:07,600
borrar,

1467
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:08,980
borrar cada parte.

1468
01:07:09,660 --> 01:07:13,080
Y luego un corolario de eso es si

1469
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:16,420
no termines agregando de nuevo el 20% de lo que eliminaste,

1470
01:07:17,020 --> 01:07:19,060
entonces no eliminaste lo suficiente en la primera ronda

1471
01:07:19,340 --> 01:07:20,140
porque eras demasiado tímido.

1472
01:07:21,180 --> 01:07:22,460
Bueno, entonces me preguntaste,

1473
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:23,740
¿Se excedió?

1474
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:26,060
Probablemente se excedió en un 20%,

1475
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:28,480
cuál es su fórmula.

1476
01:07:28,980 --> 01:07:32,780
Y probablemente ahora estén intentando contratar gente para que las cosas sigan funcionando.

1477
01:07:34,300 --> 01:07:39,260
Pero envía una señal fuerte a las personas que son contratadas nuevamente o a las que todavía están allí.

1478
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:40,400
La idea de abril.

1479
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:48,140
Sí. Y lo que sintieron Steve Jobs y muchos otros grandes líderes y ciertamente Bezos y ciertamente en los primeros días de Microsoft, Bill Gates,

1480
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:51,280
Fue duro, solo jugadores A.

1481
01:07:52,180 --> 01:07:54,660
Entonces, ¿cuánto dirías del éxito de Elon?

1482
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:59,340
El éxito de Elon y Steve Jobs es la contratación y gestión de grandes equipos.

1483
01:07:59,940 --> 01:08:01,600
Cuando en un momento le pregunté a Steve Jobs,

1484
01:08:01,700 --> 01:08:03,800
¿Cuál fue el mejor producto que jamás hayas creado?

1485
01:08:04,620 --> 01:08:05,480
Pensé que diría

1486
01:08:06,460 --> 01:08:09,800
tal vez el Macintosh o tal vez el iPhone.

1487
01:08:10,620 --> 01:08:12,200
Dijo que no, esos productos son duros.

1488
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,320
Lo mejor que he creado fue el equipo.

1489
01:08:16,020 --> 01:08:17,500
que fabricó esos productos.

1490
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:19,920
Y eso es lo difícil, crear un equipo.

1491
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:22,420
Y lo hizo, desde Johnny Ive hasta Tim Cook

1492
01:08:23,740 --> 01:08:24,580
y Eddie Q y

1493
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:25,680
Phil Schiller.

1494
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:31,080
Elon ha hecho un buen trabajo atrayendo gente.

1495
01:08:31,300 --> 01:08:32,020
Gwen Shotwell,

1496
01:08:32,660 --> 01:08:33,220
obviamente,

1497
01:08:33,900 --> 01:08:36,040
Linda Iaccarino, ella puede

1498
01:08:36,440 --> 01:08:39,200
navegar a través de las crisis actuales.

1499
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,780
Ciertamente personas estelares en SpaceX como Mark Jankos.

1500
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:52,440
Y luego en Tesla como Drew Bacalhino, Lars Marravey, Tom Zhu y muchos otros.

1501
01:08:54,440 --> 01:08:57,700
No es un gran equipo.

1502
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,100
colaborador como dice Benjamin Franklin,

1503
01:09:00,660 --> 01:09:01,280
quien por cierto,

1504
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:02,900
ese es el mejor equipo jamás creado,

1505
01:09:03,440 --> 01:09:04,140
que son los fundadores.

1506
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,720
Y tenías que tener gente realmente inteligente como Jefferson y Madison y realmente

1507
01:09:09,070 --> 01:09:15,520
gente apasionada como John Adams y su primo Samuel y realmente un tipo de gran rectitud como Washington.

1508
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:21,040
Pero también necesitabas un Ben Franklin que pudiera reunir a todos y forjar un equipo.

1509
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,780
sacarlos y hacer que se comprometan entre sí.

1510
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,740
Musk es un imán para talentos increíbles.

1511
01:09:28,580 --> 01:09:29,020
Imán,

1512
01:09:29,440 --> 01:09:29,860
interesante.

1513
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:35,940
Pero existen prioridades de contratación basadas en la excelencia,

1514
01:09:36,300 --> 01:09:37,480
confiabilidad y empuje.

1515
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:39,560
Estas son cosas que has descrito a lo largo del libro.

1516
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:41,700
Quiero decir, hay una bonita

1517
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:46,040
concreto y riguroso

1518
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:50,040
conjunto de ideas en base a las cuales se realiza la contratación.

1519
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:50,920
Oh sí.

1520
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:52,500
Y tiene una muy buena,

1521
01:09:53,460 --> 01:09:55,880
sentido arácnido e intuitivo

1522
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:57,980
solo mirando a la gente

1523
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:01,580
¿Quién podría, quiero decir, no mirarlos, sino estudiarlos?

1524
01:10:02,100 --> 01:10:02,740
¿Quién podría ser bueno?

1525
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:05,120
Uno de sus

1526
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,860
formas de operar

1527
01:10:09,700 --> 01:10:11,680
es lo que él llama una reunión de salto de nivel.

1528
01:10:12,340 --> 01:10:15,300
Y tomemos algo muy específico como el motor Raptor,

1529
01:10:15,380 --> 01:10:17,800
que impulsa la nave estelar.

1530
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:19,500
Y no iba bien.

1531
01:10:19,540 --> 01:10:21,080
Parecía un arbusto de espagueti y

1532
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:22,500
iba a ser difícil de fabricar.

1533
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:24,360
Y se deshizo de la gente

1534
01:10:24,980 --> 01:10:26,300
quienes estaban a cargo de ese equipo.

1535
01:10:27,340 --> 01:10:33,080
Y recuerdo que estuvo un par de meses haciendo lo que él llama saltar nivel,

1536
01:10:33,300 --> 01:10:38,460
lo que significa que en lugar de reunirse con sus subordinados directos en el equipo Raptor,

1537
01:10:38,860 --> 01:10:42,180
se reuniría con la gente un nivel por debajo de ellos.

1538
01:10:43,180 --> 01:10:45,920
Y entonces se saltaría un nivel y se reuniría con ellos.

1539
01:10:46,620 --> 01:10:49,740
Y él dijo, esto es, y sólo les pregunto qué están haciendo.

1540
01:10:49,820 --> 01:10:51,280
Y los acosé con preguntas.

1541
01:10:51,940 --> 01:10:54,900
Y él dijo, y así es como descubro quién va a surgir.

1542
01:10:55,500 --> 01:10:56,900
Dijo que era particularmente difícil.

1543
01:10:57,060 --> 01:10:59,520
Estuve sentado en esas reuniones porque la gente llevaba máscaras.

1544
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:01,220
Fue durante el apogeo de COVID.

1545
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:05,620
Y dijo que eso le hizo un poco más difícil porque tiene que

1546
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:06,980
obtener la entrada.

1547
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:11,300
Pero lo vi cuando era niño, Dreadlocks

1548
01:11:12,100 --> 01:11:14,680
llamado Jacob McKenzie, está en el libro,

1549
01:11:15,380 --> 01:11:17,660
está sentado ahí y es un poco como tú.

1550
01:11:18,380 --> 01:11:21,240
La mentalidad de ingeniería habla en un tono un poco monótono.

1551
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:26,060
Musk haría una pregunta y él daría una respuesta y la respuesta sería muy

1552
01:11:26,060 --> 01:11:28,300
sencillo y no se puso nervioso.

1553
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:29,500
Él era así.

1554
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:31,460
Y Musk dijo un día

1555
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:33,400
Lo llamé a las 3 a.m.

1556
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:35,200
Bueno, no diré a las 3 a. m., sino después de medianoche.

1557
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:36,860
dijo, ¿todavía estás por aquí?

1558
01:11:37,260 --> 01:11:38,640
Y Jake dijo, sí, todavía estoy en el trabajo.

1559
01:11:39,060 --> 01:11:42,680
Y él dijo: Está bien, te pondré a cargo del equipo de creación de Raptor.

1560
01:11:43,700 --> 01:11:45,300
Y eso fue como

1561
01:11:45,900 --> 01:11:46,940
una gran sorpresa.

1562
01:11:47,500 --> 01:11:50,520
Pero Jacob McKenzie ahora tiene una versión de Raptor.

1563
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,470
y cuando le construyen al menos uno por semana y son bastante impresionantes.

1564
01:11:54,260 --> 01:11:57,680
Y ahí es donde su talento,

1565
01:11:58,380 --> 01:12:03,940
El talento de Musk para encontrar a la persona adecuada y promocionarla.

1566
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:05,560
Ahí es donde está.

1567
01:12:05,740 --> 01:12:07,240
Y promoverlo de una manera que

1568
01:12:08,060 --> 01:12:09,700
es como si aquí estuviera la pelota,

1569
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:10,720
aquí atrapa.

1570
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:11,420
Sí, sí.

1571
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:13,100
Y corres con eso.

1572
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:18,340
He interactuado con bastantes personas incluso solo del Model X,

1573
01:12:19,460 --> 01:12:20,320
todo a través de,

1574
01:12:20,780 --> 01:12:21,340
donde gente,

1575
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:22,540
Ya sabes, sobre el papel no parece que lo sean.

1576
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:26,120
capaz de ejecutar la cosa y lo ejecutan con gran éxito.

1577
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:27,140
Y lo hace mal.

1578
01:12:27,340 --> 01:12:30,340
A veces ha tenido un historial horrible con el techo solar.

1579
01:12:31,020 --> 01:12:31,670
división.

1580
01:12:32,480 --> 01:12:34,260
Un tipo maravilloso llamado Brian Dow.

1581
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:35,680
Realmente me gustó.

1582
01:12:36,300 --> 01:12:39,840
Y cuando estaban haciendo el aumento de la fábrica de baterías en Nevada,

1583
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:43,880
Musk se deshizo de dos o tres personas y ahí está Brian Dow.

1584
01:12:44,260 --> 01:12:45,580
Puedo hacer, puedo hacer, puedo hacer.

1585
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:47,540
Se queda despierto toda la noche, lo ascienden y lo dirige.

1586
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:52,640
Y finalmente Musk pasa por dos o tres personas que dirigen la división de techos solares.

1587
01:12:53,380 --> 01:12:54,740
Finalmente llama a Brian Dow.

1588
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,060
Estaba sentado en la casa de Musk en Boca Chica, ese pequeño y diminuto

1589
01:12:58,760 --> 01:12:59,600
dos dormitorios tiene.

1590
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:04,160
Y le ofrece a Brian Dow el trabajo de administrar el techo solar.

1591
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:08,240
Y ya sabes, Brian, está bien, puedo hacerlo, puedo hacerlo.

1592
01:13:09,060 --> 01:13:14,180
Y dos o tres veces Musk insistió en que instalaran un sistema solar.

1593
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:16,760
techo en una de esas casas en Boca Chica.

1594
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:19,760
Este es este pequeño pueblo en el extremo sur de Texas.

1595
01:13:21,020 --> 01:13:21,880
Y a altas horas de la noche,

1596
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:25,140
Quiero decir, tendría que subir hasta la cima del techo en estos

1597
01:13:25,380 --> 01:13:27,400
escaleras y párese en este techo puntiagudo

1598
01:13:27,940 --> 01:13:29,640
como dice Musk,

1599
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:31,900
¿Por qué necesitamos cuatro tornillos para

1600
01:13:31,900 --> 01:13:33,660
poner en esta sola pierna?

1601
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:37,220
Y Brian estaba sudando y haciendo de todo.

1602
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:41,480
Pero después de un par de meses las cosas no iban bien y boom,

1603
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:44,060
Musk acaba de despedirlo.

1604
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:46,180
Por eso siempre trato de aprender,

1605
01:13:46,820 --> 01:13:50,460
¿Qué es lo que hace prosperar a quienes se quedan?

1606
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:52,400
¿Cuál es la lección allí?

1607
01:13:52,460 --> 01:13:52,900
¿Qué opinas?

1608
01:13:53,340 --> 01:13:57,220
Bueno, creo que es autoconocimiento como Andy Krebs u otros.

1609
01:13:58,160 --> 01:13:58,600
Ellos dicen,

1610
01:13:59,980 --> 01:14:00,600
Soy duro.

1611
01:14:00,780 --> 01:14:04,560
Tengo muchas ganas de llevar un cohete a Marte y eso es más importante que cualquier otra cosa.

1612
01:14:06,020 --> 01:14:07,380
Una de las personas,

1613
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:09,240
Creo que es Tim Zeman,

1614
01:14:09,380 --> 01:14:10,780
Espero que cuando escuche esto,

1615
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:12,440
Le conseguiré la persona adecuada.

1616
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:14,440
quien tomó tiempo.

1617
01:14:14,440 --> 01:14:17,940
Estaba funcionando para el piloto automático de Tesla y era muy intenso.

1618
01:14:17,940 --> 01:14:20,620
Se tomó un tiempo libre y luego se fue a otra empresa.

1619
01:14:21,060 --> 01:14:23,380
Dijo que estaba agotado en Tesla.

1620
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:25,940
pero luego me aburrí en el siguiente lugar.

1621
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:26,680
Entonces llamé,

1622
01:14:27,260 --> 01:14:28,820
Creo que fue Ashok en Tesla,

1623
01:14:28,860 --> 01:14:29,820
dijo, ¿puedo volver?

1624
01:14:29,860 --> 01:14:30,440
Dijo, seguro.

1625
01:14:30,440 --> 01:14:32,580
Dijo: Aprendí sobre mí mismo.

1626
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:34,400
Prefiero estar agotado que aburrido.

1627
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:36,000
Esa es una buena línea.

1628
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:39,060
¿Puedes simplemente quedarte?

1629
01:14:39,740 --> 01:14:41,260
uno de los tres que

1630
01:14:41,260 --> 01:14:43,380
parece interesante para usted en términos de excelencia,

1631
01:14:43,700 --> 01:14:44,660
confiabilidad y empuje?

1632
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:45,840
cual crees que

1633
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:48,380
¿Cuál es el más importante y el más difícil de alcanzar?

1634
01:14:48,540 --> 01:14:50,100
La confiabilidad es interesante.

1635
01:14:51,100 --> 01:14:52,880
¿Montas o mueres?

1636
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:53,860
Sí.

1637
01:14:54,220 --> 01:14:56,940
Creo que, especialmente cuando se trataba de apoderarse de Twitter,

1638
01:14:57,060 --> 01:15:00,280
pensaba que la mitad de la gente allí era desleal y estaba equivocado.

1639
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:02,680
Alrededor de dos tercios fueron desleales, no sólo la mitad.

1640
01:15:03,740 --> 01:15:06,040
¿Cómo los eliminamos?

1641
01:15:06,220 --> 01:15:09,600
Hizo algo e hizo el pelotón de fusilamiento,

1642
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:13,180
Yo los llamo, o los Mosqueteros, creo que es mi apodo para ellos,

1643
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:15,400
cuales son los primos jóvenes

1644
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:16,740
y dos o tres personas más.

1645
01:15:17,480 --> 01:15:18,900
Les hizo mirar los mensajes de Slack.

1646
01:15:19,540 --> 01:15:20,560
estas personas habían publicado.

1647
01:15:20,820 --> 01:15:22,040
Todos en Twitter habían publicado

1648
01:15:22,780 --> 01:15:24,980
y revisaron cientos de mensajes de Slack.

1649
01:15:25,440 --> 01:15:29,040
Si alguien publicó en el Slack interno,

1650
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:33,000
Ese idiota, Elon Musk, va a tomar el control y yo

1651
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:35,740
Tengo miedo de que sea un maníaco o algo así.

1652
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:37,560
Ellos serian

1653
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:41,200
en la lista porque quieren lealtad total.

1654
01:15:42,060 --> 01:15:48,580
No miraron los mensajes privados de Slack y supongo que las personas que publican en un Slack corporativo

1655
01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:52,920
La junta directiva debe ser consciente de que su empresa puede consultarlos.

1656
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:56,360
Pero eso es más de lo que hubiera hecho

1657
01:15:56,360 --> 01:15:57,540
o la mayoría de la gente lo habría hecho.

1658
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:01,500
Eso fue para descubrir quién es profundamente comprometido y leal.

1659
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:03,440
Creo que ese fue principalmente el caso.

1660
01:16:04,100 --> 01:16:04,600
en Twitter.

1661
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:08,020
No se sienta en SpaceX diciendo quién me es leal.

1662
01:16:09,540 --> 01:16:12,040
En otros lugares,

1663
01:16:13,380 --> 01:16:17,700
es excelencia, pero eso es un hecho.

1664
01:16:18,300 --> 01:16:20,240
Todo el mundo es como un Marc Jancosa,

1665
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:21,260
simplemente azota con inteligencia.

1666
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:23,800
Eres duro y todo incluido,

1667
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:25,780
especialmente si tienes que mudarte a esto

1668
01:16:26,740 --> 01:16:30,280
lengua de un pueblo en el extremo sur de Texas llamado Boca Chica,

1669
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:32,660
tienes que estar todo incluido.

1670
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:33,240
Sí.

1671
01:16:33,660 --> 01:16:35,900
Ese es el impulso, la última pieza.

1672
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:38,820
Usted, en términos de colaboración,

1673
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:40,500
uno de los grandes equipos de todos los tiempos,

1674
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:41,260
Ben Franklin.

1675
01:16:41,260 --> 01:16:41,940
Me gusta eso.

1676
01:16:42,740 --> 01:16:43,560
Pensé que eran los Beatles.

1677
01:16:43,740 --> 01:16:44,880
pero Ben Franklin es bastante bueno.

1678
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:46,080
Ah, no, no, no.

1679
01:16:46,120 --> 01:16:46,960
Lo lamento.

1680
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:47,160
Sí.

1681
01:16:47,220 --> 01:16:48,100
Perdón por ofenderte tanto.

1682
01:16:48,140 --> 01:16:50,400
Lea la Constitución y lea Abbey Road.

1683
01:16:50,620 --> 01:16:51,260
Mire Abbey Road.

1684
01:16:51,440 --> 01:16:53,060
Ambos son buenos, pero están en una liga diferente.

1685
01:16:53,180 --> 01:16:53,920
Sí, una liga diferente.

1686
01:16:55,030 --> 01:16:58,680
Una de las muchas cosas que me vienen a la mente con Ben Franklin es

1687
01:16:59,260 --> 01:17:00,560
Increíble gestión del tiempo.

1688
01:17:01,850 --> 01:17:04,920
¿Hay algo que puedas decir sobre

1689
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:08,920
Ben Franklin y sobre

1690
01:17:09,540 --> 01:17:10,080
¿Steve Jobs?

1691
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:12,760
Creo que lo interesante de Elon es que él, mientras escribes,

1692
01:17:13,820 --> 01:17:15,020
dirige seis empresas,

1693
01:17:16,420 --> 01:17:19,440
Depende de lo sorprendente que seas porque es algo propio, no lo sé.

1694
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:24,500
¿Qué puedes decir sobre estas personas en términos de gestión del tiempo?

1695
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:29,900
Bueno, Musk está en una liga propia en la forma en que lo hace.

1696
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:31,080
En primer lugar,

1697
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:35,500
Steve Jobs tuvo que dirigir Pixar y Apple por un tiempo,

1698
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:36,680
pero almizcle,

1699
01:17:37,900 --> 01:17:45,020
cada par de horas cambia su forma de pensar de cómo implantar el chip de enlace neuronal y qué

1700
01:17:45,020 --> 01:17:49,620
¿Cómo es el robot que lo implanta en el cerebro y a qué velocidad podemos hacer que se mueva?

1701
01:17:50,440 --> 01:17:51,020
y luego

1702
01:17:51,580 --> 01:17:53,140
El escudo térmico del Raptor.

1703
01:17:53,660 --> 01:17:54,120
o

1704
01:17:54,860 --> 01:17:55,640
cambiar a

1705
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:57,320
imitación humana,

1706
01:17:57,760 --> 01:17:58,920
Aprendizaje automático, conducción autónoma total.

1707
01:17:59,820 --> 01:18:02,640
La noche en que el foro de Twitter

1708
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:04,900
aceptó el trato,

1709
01:18:05,660 --> 01:18:07,440
esto es enorme en todo el mundo.

1710
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:08,500
Estoy seguro de que lo recuerdas,

1711
01:18:08,740 --> 01:18:10,780
como si Musk comprara Twitter.

1712
01:18:11,380 --> 01:18:12,340
No fue cuando se cerró el trato.

1713
01:18:12,420 --> 01:18:13,040
fue cuando

1714
01:18:13,670 --> 01:18:15,520
Twitter aceptó su oferta.

1715
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:17,140
Pensé, está bien,

1716
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:19,000
pero luego se fue

1717
01:18:19,660 --> 01:18:20,300
a Boca Chica,

1718
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:21,600
al sur de Texas,

1719
01:18:22,700 --> 01:18:26,200
y pasó tiempo fijándose,

1720
01:18:26,620 --> 01:18:27,900
si recuerdo correctamente,

1721
01:18:28,460 --> 01:18:30,800
una válvula en el motor Raptor que

1722
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:32,380
tuvo un problema de fuga de metano,

1723
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:37,420
y cuáles eran las posibles formas de solucionarlo.

1724
01:18:38,300 --> 01:18:40,420
Todos los ingenieros en esa sala,

1725
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:43,000
Supongo que estamos pensando en

1726
01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:44,500
este tipo acaba de comprar Twitter,

1727
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:45,420
¿Deberíamos decir algo?

1728
01:18:46,300 --> 01:18:50,860
y luego va con Kimball a un antro al borde de la carretera.

1729
01:18:51,780 --> 01:18:53,420
en Brownsville

1730
01:18:53,940 --> 01:18:58,140
y simplemente se sienta al frente y escucha música sin que nadie se dé cuenta de que él está ahí.

1731
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:04,220
Una de las cosas que es una de sus fortalezas y una especie de debilidad en cierto modo

1732
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:06,340
es en un día determinado,

1733
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:08,100
infierno

1734
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:10,740
centrarse en serie,

1735
01:19:11,100 --> 01:19:13,580
secuencialmente en muchas cosas diferentes.

1736
01:19:14,140 --> 01:19:19,240
Se preocupará por subir video.

1737
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,400
en x.com o en el sistema de pago,

1738
01:19:22,740 --> 01:19:24,500
y luego cambiar inmediatamente

1739
01:19:25,100 --> 01:19:26,620
a algún problema con

1740
01:19:26,620 --> 01:19:34,140
la FAA otorgando un permiso para Starship o cómo lidiar con Starlink y la CIA.

1741
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:37,500
Cuando se concentra en cualquiera de estas cosas,

1742
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:41,200
no puedes distraerlo.

1743
01:19:41,440 --> 01:19:43,460
No es que él también esté pensando en

1744
01:19:44,020 --> 01:19:48,380
lidiar con Starlink, pero también tengo que preocuparme por la decisión de Tesla sobre

1745
01:19:48,980 --> 01:19:50,780
El auto nuevo de $25,000.

1746
01:19:51,660 --> 01:19:54,000
Ahora, entre estas sesiones,

1747
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:56,380
procesar informacion,

1748
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:57,760
luego desahogarse.

1749
01:19:58,600 --> 01:19:59,380
Para bien o para mal,

1750
01:19:59,460 --> 01:20:00,500
se desahoga

1751
01:20:01,620 --> 01:20:04,940
ya sea jugando a un amigo en politopía o

1752
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:06,620
dispara algunos tweets,

1753
01:20:06,980 --> 01:20:09,220
lo cual muchas veces no es algo saludable,

1754
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:12,160
pero es una liberación para él.

1755
01:20:13,830 --> 01:20:16,360
Una vez dije que era un gran multitarea,

1756
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:17,700
y eso fue un error.

1757
01:20:18,260 --> 01:20:19,080
La gente me corrigió.

1758
01:20:19,440 --> 01:20:20,720
Es un tasker en serie,

1759
01:20:21,580 --> 01:20:25,280
lo que significa concentrarse intensamente en una tarea durante una hora,

1760
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:29,240
casi tiene un, como lo llaman,

1761
01:20:29,360 --> 01:20:32,360
en restaurantes donde te dan un limpiador del paladar.

1762
01:20:32,700 --> 01:20:34,600
Se hace un limpiador de paladar con

1763
01:20:34,990 --> 01:20:37,640
politopía y luego se concentra en la siguiente tarea.

1764
01:20:38,220 --> 01:20:40,320
¿Existe algo de sabiduría sobre la gestión del tiempo?

1765
01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:41,860
¿Qué puedes sacar de eso?

1766
01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:44,340
Hay algunas cosas que estas personas hacen y tú dices,

1767
01:20:44,780 --> 01:20:46,160
Está bien, puedo ser así.

1768
01:20:46,220 --> 01:20:47,180
Puedo tener más curiosidad.

1769
01:20:47,220 --> 01:20:49,160
Puedo cuestionar todas las reglas y regulaciones.

1770
01:20:50,620 --> 01:20:52,920
Simplemente no creo que nadie

1771
01:20:53,740 --> 01:20:59,700
debería intentar emular el estilo de gestión del tiempo de Musk porque requiere

1772
01:21:00,180 --> 01:21:04,860
un cierto conjunto de equipos que saben cómo lidiar con todo lo demás excepto aquello en lo que se está enfocando

1773
01:21:05,540 --> 01:21:07,280
y un cierto

1774
01:21:07,820 --> 01:21:10,440
mente que puede cambiar,

1775
01:21:10,940 --> 01:21:12,760
al igual que su estado de ánimo puede cambiar.

1776
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:14,980
tu y yo pasamos por

1777
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,100
transiciones y también si estoy pensando en

1778
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:19,020
lo que voy a decir en este podcast,

1779
01:21:19,060 --> 01:21:23,340
También estoy pensando en el correo electrónico que acaba de enviar mi hija sobre una casa que está buscando.

1780
01:21:23,340 --> 01:21:26,020
en, y estoy realizando múltiples tareas.

1781
01:21:26,700 --> 01:21:27,760
En realidad, él no hace eso.

1782
01:21:27,780 --> 01:21:31,280
Únicamente realiza tareas secuencialmente con

1783
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:33,200
un enfoque que es duro.

1784
01:21:33,660 --> 01:21:34,040
No sé.

1785
01:21:34,140 --> 01:21:35,640
Creo que hay sabiduría que sacar de eso.

1786
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:38,220
Primero que nada, me hace,

1787
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:40,280
Ben Franklin me hace sentir así.

1788
01:21:41,020 --> 01:21:42,860
que el día tiene muchas horas.

1789
01:21:43,180 --> 01:21:45,160
Hay muchos minutos en el día.

1790
01:21:46,340 --> 01:21:50,380
No hay excusa para no hacer muchas cosas y eso requiere sólo una concentración extrema.

1791
01:21:51,380 --> 01:21:53,540
un enfoque extremo y una urgencia.

1792
01:21:54,260 --> 01:21:58,920
Creo que la feroz urgencia que

1793
01:22:00,340 --> 01:22:02,240
lo impulsa es importante

1794
01:22:03,060 --> 01:22:04,620
y a veces está desmotado.

1795
01:22:05,860 --> 01:22:10,280
Como digo, la feroz urgencia de llegar a Marte y un viernes por la noche

1796
01:22:10,980 --> 01:22:15,400
en la plataforma de lanzamiento en Boca Chica a las 10 p.m.,

1797
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:17,420
Hay pocas personas trabajando porque es viernes.

1798
01:22:17,420 --> 01:22:17,720
noche.

1799
01:22:17,740 --> 01:22:20,020
Se supone que no se lanzarán hasta dentro de ocho meses.

1800
01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:22,440
Y ordena un aumento.

1801
01:22:23,020 --> 01:22:26,260
Él dice: Quiero que mañana haya 200 personas aquí trabajando en esta plataforma.

1802
01:22:26,940 --> 01:22:29,040
Tenemos que tener un fuerte sentido de urgencia.

1803
01:22:29,040 --> 01:22:30,740
o nunca llegaremos a Marte.

1804
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:37,720
Ese sentido de urgencia es también una vitalidad.

1805
01:22:38,870 --> 01:22:42,340
eso es como realmente asumir la vida plenamente.

1806
01:22:42,580 --> 01:22:44,840
Quiero decir, para mí, esa es la lección:

1807
01:22:45,660 --> 01:22:49,260
Incluso lo mundano puede estar lleno de esta justa riqueza.

1808
01:22:49,540 --> 01:22:54,400
Y como si tuvieras que asimilarlo intensamente.

1809
01:22:54,980 --> 01:22:56,180
Así como el cambio

1810
01:22:57,400 --> 01:22:58,780
permite ese tipo de intensidad

1811
01:22:58,780 --> 01:23:00,420
porque la mayoría de nosotros no podemos mantener esa intensidad

1812
01:23:00,420 --> 01:23:02,420
en cualquier tarea durante un período prolongado de tiempo.

1813
01:23:03,140 --> 01:23:04,360
Quizás eso también sea una lección.

1814
01:23:05,780 --> 01:23:06,020
Bien.

1815
01:23:06,380 --> 01:23:08,880
Y supongo que también se remonta a saber quién eres,

1816
01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:10,820
es decir, hay personas que

1817
01:23:12,100 --> 01:23:16,300
Puede concentrarse intensamente y hay personas que pueden ver patrones en muchas cosas.

1818
01:23:16,580 --> 01:23:18,040
Mira, Leonardo da Vinci,

1819
01:23:19,180 --> 01:23:20,860
no estaba tan concentrado.

1820
01:23:21,420 --> 01:23:23,540
Se distraía fácilmente.

1821
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:24,000
Aplazar.

1822
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:26,760
Por eso tiene más cuadros sin terminar.

1823
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:28,820
que pinturas terminadas en su canon.

1824
01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:32,300
Pero su capacidad para

1825
01:23:33,220 --> 01:23:35,320
ver patrones en la naturaleza

1826
01:23:35,380 --> 01:23:39,340
y de alguna manera procesar, posponer,

1827
01:23:39,720 --> 01:23:40,640
distraerse,

1828
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:42,860
eso le ayudó un poco,

1829
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:46,260
pero Musk no es así.

1830
01:23:46,580 --> 01:23:47,060
Y ahí

1831
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:50,340
cada pocos meses como una nueva oleada,

1832
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:51,820
no sabes donde estará,

1833
01:23:51,940 --> 01:23:56,480
pero estarás en techos solares y de repente tendremos una oleada y tiene que haberla,

1834
01:23:56,480 --> 01:24:00,420
ya sabes, cien techos solares construidos o esto tiene que estar hecho mañana o

1835
01:24:01,060 --> 01:24:05,200
haz una cúpula de nave estelar al amanecer y aumenta y hazlo.

1836
01:24:06,230 --> 01:24:08,640
Y hay personas que están construidas de esa manera.

1837
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:10,000
Es inspirador,

1838
01:24:10,900 --> 01:24:12,750
pero también apreciemos,

1839
01:24:13,440 --> 01:24:16,820
ya sabes, que hay personas que pueden ser realmente buenas,

1840
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:22,900
pero también puede saborear

1841
01:24:24,180 --> 01:24:24,800
el éxito,

1842
01:24:25,140 --> 01:24:25,780
saborear el momento,

1843
01:24:26,180 --> 01:24:27,900
saborear la tranquilidad a veces.

1844
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:32,260
El gran defecto de Musk es que no sabe saborear

1845
01:24:33,300 --> 01:24:33,980
el momento

1846
01:24:34,500 --> 01:24:35,060
o éxito.

1847
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:38,700
Y esa es la otra cara de la intensidad del hardcore.

1848
01:24:40,440 --> 01:24:41,760
En Innovadores, otro

1849
01:24:42,380 --> 01:24:43,500
libro tuyo que me encanta,

1850
01:24:43,620 --> 01:24:45,600
escribes sobre individuos y sobre grupos.

1851
01:24:46,540 --> 01:24:49,820
Entonces, una de las preguntas que aborda el libro es:

1852
01:24:49,900 --> 01:24:51,660
son individuos o es

1853
01:24:51,660 --> 01:24:53,420
¿Cuáles son los grupos que cambian el rumbo de la historia?

1854
01:24:55,340 --> 01:25:02,300
Cuando Henry Kissinger estaba en las misiones del transbordador para Oriente Medio, la paz es el primer libro que escribí.

1855
01:25:03,380 --> 01:25:05,440
Dijo que cuando yo era profesor en Harvard,

1856
01:25:06,580 --> 01:25:09,020
Pensé que la historia estaba determinada por grandes

1857
01:25:09,140 --> 01:25:11,360
fuerzas y grupos de personas.

1858
01:25:12,660 --> 01:25:13,980
Pero cuando lo veo de cerca,

1859
01:25:14,180 --> 01:25:17,060
Veo la diferencia que un individuo puede hacer.

1860
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:21,740
Está hablando de Sadat y Golda Meir, probablemente también esté hablando de él mismo.

1861
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:23,920
o al menos en su mente.

1862
01:25:25,340 --> 01:25:28,400
Y nosotros los biógrafos tenemos este sucio secreto que sabemos,

1863
01:25:28,500 --> 01:25:29,700
distorsionamos la historia un

1864
01:25:29,700 --> 01:25:32,640
poco al hacer que la narrativa esté demasiado impulsada por un individuo.

1865
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:35,460
Pero a veces es impulsado por

1866
01:25:35,460 --> 01:25:35,940
un individuo.

1867
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:37,380
Musk es un caso así.

1868
01:25:37,660 --> 01:25:39,880
Y a veces, como hice con los Innovadores,

1869
01:25:41,020 --> 01:25:46,010
hay equipos y personas que se basan unos en otros y Gordon Moore y Bob Noyce,

1870
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:48,500
luego conseguir a Andy Grove y hacerle el microchip,

1871
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:52,680
que luego sale y Wozniak y Jobs lo encuentran

1872
01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:57,400
En una tienda de electrónica y deciden construir Apple.

1873
01:25:59,380 --> 01:26:01,160
Y entonces a veces hay

1874
01:26:02,020 --> 01:26:05,460
Son flujos de fuerzas y grupos de personas.

1875
01:26:06,200 --> 01:26:09,560
Supongo que me equivoco un poco al mirar

1876
01:26:09,990 --> 01:26:12,760
en lo que Steve Jobs y Elon Musk

1877
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:15,200
y Albert Einstein puede hacer.

1878
01:26:16,180 --> 01:26:18,040
Y también trato de imaginar

1879
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:19,260
si no hubieran estado presentes,

1880
01:26:19,420 --> 01:26:21,280
¿Las fuerzas de la historia y los grupos de personas

1881
01:26:21,620 --> 01:26:22,880
¿Lo has hecho sin ellos?

1882
01:26:23,240 --> 01:26:27,220
Esa es una buena pregunta histórica para alguien que ama la historia.

1883
01:26:28,100 --> 01:26:29,060
Y piensas en

1884
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:30,640
relatividad especial,

1885
01:26:31,060 --> 01:26:32,620
uno de los artículos de 1905.

1886
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:36,200
Incluso después de escribirlo,

1887
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:38,760
Pasan cuatro años antes de que la gente realmente entienda lo que dice.

1888
01:26:38,820 --> 01:26:40,840
que no es solo como tú

1889
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:42,140
el tiempo de observación es relativo,

1890
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:44,100
su tiempo en sí es relativo.

1891
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:46,160
Y en la teoría general,

1892
01:26:46,320 --> 01:26:47,720
lo que hace una década después,

1893
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:50,760
No estoy seguro de que lo hayamos conseguido todavía.

1894
01:26:51,300 --> 01:26:53,480
¿Qué tal si nos trasladamos a

1895
01:26:53,480 --> 01:26:59,560
la era de un iPhone en el que es tan bonito que no puedes vivir sin mil canciones en el bolsillo,

1896
01:27:00,300 --> 01:27:01,100
correo electrónico y

1897
01:27:01,740 --> 01:27:04,260
¿Internet en tu bolsillo y un teléfono?

1898
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:07,440
Hay una gran cantidad de

1899
01:27:07,440 --> 01:27:11,280
Las personas con muerte cerebral son, desde Panasonic hasta Motorola, que no entendieron eso.

1900
01:27:11,300 --> 01:27:12,540
Y puede que haya pasado un tiempo.

1901
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:16,220
Ciertamente creo que es cierto en la era de los vehículos eléctricos.

1902
01:27:16,980 --> 01:27:17,640
Jim y Ford,

1903
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:19,320
toda la gran gente allí,

1904
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:21,100
aplastaron el cerrojo.

1905
01:27:21,200 --> 01:27:22,260
Y lo digo literalmente,

1906
01:27:22,320 --> 01:27:23,840
terminaron destrozando

1907
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:26,200
ellos porque decidieron descontinuarlo.

1908
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:27,180
Asimismo,

1909
01:27:27,780 --> 01:27:29,100
nadie estaba lanzando cohetes.

1910
01:27:29,740 --> 01:27:31,940
Nuestro transbordador espacial estaba a punto de quedar en tierra.

1911
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:33,780
Hace 12 años.

1912
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:38,160
Y así Musk hace las cosas.

1913
01:27:39,220 --> 01:27:40,760
y habrá gente que diga,

1914
01:27:41,300 --> 01:27:42,240
si leen el libro,

1915
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:43,340
verán la historia completa.

1916
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:44,060
pero lo dicen

1917
01:27:44,060 --> 01:27:45,460
¿No fue Musk quien hizo Tesla?

1918
01:27:45,580 --> 01:27:46,980
era Martin Abba Hart o Mark Tarpenning.

1919
01:27:47,300 --> 01:27:47,620
No no,

1920
01:27:48,220 --> 01:27:48,300
No.

1921
01:27:48,340 --> 01:27:50,460
Había gente que había ayudado

1922
01:27:51,460 --> 01:27:55,040
crear las corazas de empresas y otras cosas

1923
01:27:55,580 --> 01:27:58,560
y todos merecían ser llamados cofundadores.

1924
01:27:59,300 --> 01:28:00,640
Pero el tipo que en realidad

1925
01:28:01,200 --> 01:28:02,140
nos lleva a un millón

1926
01:28:02,160 --> 01:28:03,620
vehículos eléctricos al año

1927
01:28:04,480 --> 01:28:05,220
es Elon Musk.

1928
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:05,900
Y sin él,

1929
01:28:07,240 --> 01:28:09,300
No creo que nosotros...

1930
01:28:09,300 --> 01:28:09,560
Mirar,

1931
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:15,860
Si alguien dentro de cinco años compra un coche que funcione con gasolina,

1932
01:28:16,380 --> 01:28:18,830
Pensaremos que es pintoresco, eso es.

1933
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:19,500
extraño.

1934
01:28:20,380 --> 01:28:21,660
Quiero decir, de repente hemos cambiado.

1935
01:28:21,820 --> 01:28:22,680
No lo vamos a hacer.

1936
01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:25,000
El 90% de eso es Elon Musk.

1937
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:26,900
Todos somos mortales.

1938
01:28:27,820 --> 01:28:32,500
¿Cuándo y cómo crees que Elon se retirará de lo increíblemente productivo?

1939
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:33,980
¿Horario en el que se encuentra ahora?

1940
01:28:35,160 --> 01:28:37,340
Pensaría que odiaría retirarse.

1941
01:28:37,640 --> 01:28:39,520
creo que el no puede vivir

1942
01:28:40,820 --> 01:28:41,900
sin la presión,

1943
01:28:42,260 --> 01:28:42,920
el drama,

1944
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:45,920
el todo en sentimiento.

1945
01:28:49,140 --> 01:28:53,800
Nunca ha sido nada que pareciera haber pasado por su mente.

1946
01:28:54,260 --> 01:28:54,880
Él nunca ha dicho,

1947
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:58,940
Quizás me encanta la casa de Larry Ellison en la playa de Hawaii.

1948
01:28:59,140 --> 01:28:59,820
Tal vez deberia

1949
01:29:00,420 --> 01:29:01,240
dedica tiempo a hacerlo.

1950
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:03,240
En cambio, dice cosas como,

1951
01:29:03,420 --> 01:29:06,380
Aprendí desde el principio que las vacaciones te matarán.

1952
01:29:07,620 --> 01:29:09,420
Contrae malaria cuando se va de vacaciones.

1953
01:29:09,700 --> 01:29:11,360
Quiero decir, se va de vacaciones a la una.

1954
01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:13,260
punto y lo expulsan de PayPal.

1955
01:29:13,480 --> 01:29:14,800
Y luego se va a África un punto,

1956
01:29:14,940 --> 01:29:15,720
contrae malaria.

1957
01:29:15,860 --> 01:29:17,240
Él dice, ya he aprendido, las vacaciones te matan.

1958
01:29:17,260 --> 01:29:17,780
Lección aprendida.

1959
01:29:18,380 --> 01:29:20,360
Bueno, es interesante porque los proyectos son

1960
01:29:21,020 --> 01:29:22,960
proyectos de más de cien años.

1961
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:23,900
Muchos de estos.

1962
01:29:24,020 --> 01:29:25,600
Una de las cosas raras

1963
01:29:27,260 --> 01:29:28,580
lo está viendo pensar

1964
01:29:29,540 --> 01:29:30,880
increíblemente a largo plazo.

1965
01:29:31,740 --> 01:29:33,340
Una de las reuniones cada semana.

1966
01:29:34,180 --> 01:29:36,980
Desde el principio, cuando lo estaba mirando.

1967
01:29:37,500 --> 01:29:39,120
Fue colonizador de Marte.

1968
01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:41,380
Y lo hicimos durante dos horas.

1969
01:29:41,380 --> 01:29:45,020
reunión sobre cuál sería la estructura de gobierno en Marte?

1970
01:29:46,020 --> 01:29:47,200
¿Qué usaría la gente?

1971
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:49,440
¿Cómo funcionarían los robots?

1972
01:29:51,500 --> 01:29:54,560
¿Y habría democracia o debería haberla?

1973
01:29:55,340 --> 01:29:58,300
¿Una forma diferente de gobernar?

1974
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:00,180
Estoy sentado ahí diciendo:

1975
01:30:01,040 --> 01:30:01,520
¿Qué están haciendo?

1976
01:30:01,620 --> 01:30:02,360
De qué están hablando?

1977
01:30:02,980 --> 01:30:04,780
Están intentando construir cohetes y todo lo demás.

1978
01:30:05,480 --> 01:30:08,140
Les preocupa la estructura de gobierno de Marte.

1979
01:30:08,740 --> 01:30:09,520
Y de la misma manera,

1980
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:13,840
cada vez que está en un momento tenso,

1981
01:30:14,140 --> 01:30:14,840
como si hubiera un cohete que

1982
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:15,660
a punto de ser lanzado,

1983
01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:18,780
comenzará a preguntarle algo a la gente en el futuro,

1984
01:30:19,580 --> 01:30:20,720
como el nuevo

1985
01:30:21,840 --> 01:30:23,480
motor principal o algo así.

1986
01:30:23,540 --> 01:30:24,360
Si vamos a construir eso,

1987
01:30:24,680 --> 01:30:26,780
¿Tenemos suficientes materiales listos para

1988
01:30:26,780 --> 01:30:28,980
orden o no lo sé,

1989
01:30:28,980 --> 01:30:31,280
él solo hará preguntas

1990
01:30:33,180 --> 01:30:35,460
como cuando construye un taxi robot,

1991
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:39,440
el coche global, el coche global barato de 25.000 dólares.

1992
01:30:39,940 --> 01:30:41,280
Esa no es una pasión total.

1993
01:30:41,480 --> 01:30:43,280
Lo convencieron para que hiciera eso.

1994
01:30:43,700 --> 01:30:44,960
Su pasión son los taxis robot,

1995
01:30:45,740 --> 01:30:48,480
pero su pasión es cómo vamos a hacer esta fábrica

1996
01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:50,540
¿Hacer un millón de coches al año?

1997
01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:55,840
Así que incluso el taxi robot es una visión de mayor alcance.

1998
01:30:55,980 --> 01:30:58,340
Quiero decir, lo ha estado promocionando desde 2016,

1999
01:30:59,500 --> 01:31:00,820
pero no lo somos.

2000
01:31:01,540 --> 01:31:02,740
No hay taxis robot.

2001
01:31:02,940 --> 01:31:03,120
Quiero decir,

2002
01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:06,460
Es posible que Waymo esté haciendo un pequeño experimento, pero no hay

2003
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:09,800
Coches fabricados sin dirección.

2004
01:31:09,850 --> 01:31:12,140
ruedas que se van a apoderar de las carreteras.

2005
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:13,480
Sí.

2006
01:31:13,480 --> 01:31:16,580
Mi punto es que él siempre está mirando hacia el futuro.

2007
01:31:17,260 --> 01:31:25,230
Sólo espero que haya muchos de Da Vinci, Steve Jobs y Einstein.

2008
01:31:25,420 --> 01:31:28,760
y los de Elon Musk que llevan la llama hacia adelante.

2009
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:30,340
Esa es una de las razones por las que escribes libros.

2010
01:31:30,340 --> 01:31:32,340
acerca de estas personas es para que

2011
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:36,320
si eres una mujer joven en una escuela donde no te dicen

2012
01:31:36,340 --> 01:31:40,040
hacer ciencia y leíste el descifrador de códigos sobre Jennifer Doudna,

2013
01:31:40,340 --> 01:31:40,960
dices, está bien,

2014
01:31:41,280 --> 01:31:42,260
Puedo ser eso.

2015
01:31:42,700 --> 01:31:44,180
Y cuando dices,

2016
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:47,720
oh, tal vez seré regulador o dices,

2017
01:31:47,720 --> 01:31:49,960
oh no, tal vez seré yo la persona que empuje

2018
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:52,840
los límites, quién empuja las líneas,

2019
01:31:53,100 --> 01:31:55,860
quien empuja, como decía Steve Jobs, a la raza humana.

2020
01:31:57,160 --> 01:31:58,280
Bueno, déjame preguntarte sobre

2021
01:31:59,200 --> 01:31:59,940
tu mente,

2022
01:32:01,020 --> 01:32:01,660
tu genio,

2023
01:32:02,720 --> 01:32:03,660
tu proceso.

2024
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:05,640
Te doy dos de tres.

2025
01:32:05,940 --> 01:32:06,240
Está bien.

2026
01:32:07,140 --> 01:32:08,900
Cuéntame tu proceso de escribir una biografía.

2027
01:32:09,540 --> 01:32:09,820
Quiero decir,

2028
01:32:10,320 --> 01:32:11,260
todo ello.

2029
01:32:11,900 --> 01:32:13,240
Y no sólo escribir una biografía,

2030
01:32:13,820 --> 01:32:16,960
pero comprendiendo profundamente,

2031
01:32:17,940 --> 01:32:21,460
que tus libros han hecho por el

2032
01:32:21,460 --> 01:32:24,980
historia humana y me gustan las ideas más amplias que subyacen a la historia humana.

2033
01:32:25,060 --> 01:32:27,140
Entonces has escrito biografías de individuos,

2034
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:29,740
que difícilmente son individuos.

2035
01:32:30,300 --> 01:32:32,260
Es un panorama realmente grande y complejo.

2036
01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:34,460
y biografías de

2037
01:32:35,820 --> 01:32:39,400
ideas que involucran a individuos.

2038
01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:43,200
Bueno, para mí el primer paso es intentar descubrir cómo funciona la mente.

2039
01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:50,720
¿Qué lleva a Einstein a dar ese salto para que Elon Musk diga acero inoxidable?

2040
01:32:50,720 --> 01:32:54,220
¿Mientras mira un cohete de fibra de carbono?

2041
01:32:54,740 --> 01:32:54,920
O

2042
01:32:55,480 --> 01:32:57,020
¿Cómo se da el salto mental?

2043
01:32:57,600 --> 01:32:57,880
Porque

2044
01:32:58,360 --> 01:32:59,400
Escribo sobre gente inteligente

2045
01:32:59,500 --> 01:33:01,000
pero hay gente inteligente a montones.

2046
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:02,080
No suelen ascender

2047
01:33:02,100 --> 01:33:02,500
demasiado.

2048
01:33:02,620 --> 01:33:03,520
Tienes que ser creativo,

2049
01:33:03,880 --> 01:33:04,740
imaginativo para pensar diferente,

2050
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:06,300
como diría Jobs.

2051
01:33:07,020 --> 01:33:08,480
Entonces, ¿qué hace que la gente sea creativa?

2052
01:33:08,940 --> 01:33:10,940
¿Qué les hace dar saltos imaginativos?

2053
01:33:11,500 --> 01:33:13,140
Esa es la pregunta clave

2054
01:33:13,140 --> 01:33:14,240
tienes que preguntar.

2055
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:16,720
También haces las preguntas como las que hiciste antes,

2056
01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:18,400
que es lo que los demonios

2057
01:33:19,060 --> 01:33:22,160
¿Están tintineando en sus cabezas y cómo los aprovechan para convertirlos en impulsos?

2058
01:33:22,940 --> 01:33:23,760
Entonces miras todo

2059
01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:26,940
eso y tratas de observar con mucha atención

2060
01:33:27,620 --> 01:33:28,400
la persona.

2061
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:33,900
Una de las cosas más mundanas que hago es

2062
01:33:34,860 --> 01:33:36,080
muchos escritores

2063
01:33:36,860 --> 01:33:40,220
Intenta darte muchas de sus opiniones.

2064
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,160
y predicar o lo que sea.

2065
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:48,500
Como dije, este mentor dijo que surgen dos tipos de personas, predicadores, narradores.

2066
01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:50,620
Sea un narrador de historias.

2067
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:54,000
lo intento

2068
01:33:54,620 --> 01:33:57,820
Cada vez que intento transmitir un pensamiento,

2069
01:33:58,860 --> 01:34:02,040
Hay seis palabras mágicas que casi debería tener.

2070
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:03,640
escrito en una tarjeta

2071
01:34:04,480 --> 01:34:06,060
clavado encima de mi escritorio,

2072
01:34:06,440 --> 01:34:08,340
que es déjame contarte una historia.

2073
01:34:09,260 --> 01:34:10,460
Entonces si alguien dice

2074
01:34:11,220 --> 01:34:15,460
¿Cómo descubre Elon Musk el buen talento?

2075
01:34:16,700 --> 01:34:17,280
Como lo hiciste tú,

2076
01:34:18,140 --> 01:34:19,240
Creo que bueno déjame decirte

2077
01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:19,580
la historia.

2078
01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:21,100
Te contaré la historia de Jake McKenzie.

2079
01:34:22,540 --> 01:34:24,820
O esto no es algo que inventé yo.

2080
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:27,420
Aquí es donde lo hace el buen Dios en la Biblia.

2081
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:29,180
Quiero decir, tiene la mejor apertura.

2082
01:34:29,820 --> 01:34:32,440
frase inicial alguna vez, ya sabes, al principio, coma,

2083
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:34,020
y luego son historias.

2084
01:34:34,940 --> 01:34:38,240
Y en segundo lugar, para retomar esa frase principal del principio,

2085
01:34:38,780 --> 01:34:40,060
hazlo cronológico.

2086
01:34:41,180 --> 01:34:44,960
Todos en el 40

2087
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:45,660
año de su vida

2088
01:34:46,380 --> 01:34:49,440
Ha crecido desde el año 39 y el año 38.

2089
01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:51,320
Y entonces quieres

2090
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:53,700
mostrar cómo las personas evolucionan y crecen.

2091
01:34:54,760 --> 01:34:57,060
Tuve la mejor narrativa de no ficción.

2092
01:34:57,080 --> 01:34:59,400
actitudes, Alice Mayhew en Simon Schuster,

2093
01:35:00,100 --> 01:35:03,200
quien entre otras cosas creó todos los poderes del presidente

2094
01:35:03,200 --> 01:35:04,660
hombres con Woodward y Bernstein.

2095
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:07,720
Pero ella tenía una nota que había puesto en los márgenes de mis libros.

2096
01:35:08,340 --> 01:35:09,380
eso fue un tic para,

2097
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:11,540
y significó todas las cosas a su debido tiempo.

2098
01:35:12,400 --> 01:35:14,160
Manténgalo cronológico.

2099
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:15,620
Si es lo suficientemente bueno para la Biblia,

2100
01:35:15,660 --> 01:35:16,540
es lo suficientemente bueno para ti.

2101
01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:17,240
Interesante.

2102
01:35:17,280 --> 01:35:17,660
A mi,

2103
01:35:17,960 --> 01:35:19,020
como si fuera una pequeña nota,

2104
01:35:19,580 --> 01:35:21,760
pero para ti es extremadamente importante.

2105
01:35:22,020 --> 01:35:24,480
Porque es el marco sobre cómo estructurar las cosas,

2106
01:35:24,480 --> 01:35:26,280
pero también cómo entiendes las cosas,

2107
01:35:26,440 --> 01:35:30,800
que es si lo mantienes en una narrativa cronológica,

2108
01:35:31,620 --> 01:35:34,400
Entonces estás mostrando cómo ha crecido una persona.

2109
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:38,520
de una experiencia de la que has hablado a la siguiente.

2110
01:35:39,340 --> 01:35:41,980
Y ese crecimiento moral,

2111
01:35:42,340 --> 01:35:42,620
creativo

2112
01:35:42,940 --> 01:35:44,260
crecimiento, crecimiento con riesgo,

2113
01:35:45,340 --> 01:35:45,840
sabiduría,

2114
01:35:46,780 --> 01:35:49,660
Esas son las esencias de la creatividad.

2115
01:35:50,020 --> 01:35:51,340
Pero no puedes hacerlo.

2116
01:35:52,120 --> 01:35:53,000
hay

2117
01:35:53,540 --> 01:35:59,780
un término, Bildungsroman, que es un libro que lleva una narrativa y cuenta

2118
01:35:59,820 --> 01:36:00,700
cómo la gente aprende algo.

2119
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:03,240
Soy un gran creyente en la narrativa.

2120
01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:04,860
Si eres académico,

2121
01:36:06,740 --> 01:36:07,400
a veces

2122
01:36:07,780 --> 01:36:10,880
no hoy, sino hace como 20 años, hace 30 años,

2123
01:36:12,200 --> 01:36:13,860
Había dos cosas que pensabas que eran malas.

2124
01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:14,340
Uno fue

2125
01:36:15,460 --> 01:36:20,580
tener una gran persona teoría de la historia en la que decidiste hacer una biografía.

2126
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:23,300
Tuve un gran profesor cuando estaba en la universidad.

2127
01:36:23,660 --> 01:36:24,780
Su nombre era Doris Kearns.

2128
01:36:25,820 --> 01:36:27,040
Más tarde se casó con Dick Goodwin.

2129
01:36:28,020 --> 01:36:28,700
Y ella,

2130
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:31,780
cuando aspiraba a ser titular en la universidad,

2131
01:36:32,780 --> 01:36:33,240
escribió una biografía

2132
01:36:34,280 --> 01:36:36,220
de Lyndon Johnson y el sueño americano.

2133
01:36:36,520 --> 01:36:39,120
Y le negaron el cargo porque era

2134
01:36:39,120 --> 01:36:44,360
debajo de la dignidad de la academia escribir la historia a través de una sola persona.

2135
01:36:45,820 --> 01:36:46,720
Genial.

2136
01:36:47,000 --> 01:36:51,460
Nos abrió el campo de la biografía a nosotros, los no académicos,

2137
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:54,480
empezando por David McCullough,

2138
01:36:55,460 --> 01:36:56,200
Bob Caro,

2139
01:36:56,980 --> 01:37:00,980
pero tal vez John Meacham y yo pertenezcamos a una nueva generación.

2140
01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:03,840
Y ciertamente habrá una generación detrás de nosotros.

2141
01:37:04,700 --> 01:37:07,500
Pero lo segundo además de contarlo a través de personas, que

2142
01:37:08,560 --> 01:37:16,120
¿La academia tendía a desdeñar lo que llamaban imponer una narrativa?

2143
01:37:16,980 --> 01:37:18,440
y lo que hiciste para contar historias.

2144
01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:23,800
Porque eso significaba que estabas dejando cosas fuera y convirtiéndolas en una narrativa.

2145
01:37:24,660 --> 01:37:24,960
Bien,

2146
01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:29,460
así es como formamos nuestra visión del mundo.

2147
01:37:30,660 --> 01:37:34,740
Bueno, déjenme hacerles esta pregunta en términos de lograr un entendimiento.

2148
01:37:36,940 --> 01:37:43,000
¿Cuánto de ello se trata de observación y cuánto de entrevistas?

2149
01:37:44,760 --> 01:37:44,960
Sí.

2150
01:37:45,100 --> 01:37:47,220
Um, y obviamente depende del tema.

2151
01:37:47,520 --> 01:37:48,820
Quiero decir, con un Ben Franklin,

2152
01:37:48,820 --> 01:37:50,520
todo se basa en archivos y todo,

2153
01:37:51,180 --> 01:37:51,620
por supuesto que tenemos

2154
01:37:52,440 --> 01:37:53,780
40 volúmenes de cartas.

2155
01:37:54,060 --> 01:37:57,120
Escribió que eran viejos tiempos en los que cada día escribías 20 cartas.

2156
01:37:58,040 --> 01:38:02,980
El libro imprescindible se basa mucho más en la observación que casi cualquiera de mis libros,

2157
01:38:03,060 --> 01:38:08,660
porque se abrió de una manera que me dejó impresionante.

2158
01:38:09,100 --> 01:38:09,220
Sí.

2159
01:38:09,720 --> 01:38:11,580
Incluso cuando estaría sentado en blanco

2160
01:38:12,740 --> 01:38:16,340
politopía o furia contra otras personas,

2161
01:38:16,440 --> 01:38:18,620
ya sabes, me tenía sentado allí mirando.

2162
01:38:20,060 --> 01:38:22,640
Quiero decir, pasé mucho tiempo con Jennifer a su lado.

2163
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:26,360
Fui a su laboratorio y edité un gen humano y, ya sabes,

2164
01:38:26,680 --> 01:38:27,980
con una pipeta y un tubo de ensayo.

2165
01:38:28,520 --> 01:38:31,260
Pero yo diría que gasté

2166
01:38:31,900 --> 01:38:33,060
30 horas con ella.

2167
01:38:33,560 --> 01:38:38,520
No puedo contar, ya sabes, cien horas o más simplemente observando la mezquita.

2168
01:38:39,180 --> 01:38:39,980
Y no lo soy

2169
01:38:41,360 --> 01:38:44,580
Seguro que cualquier biógrafo,

2170
01:38:45,020 --> 01:38:46,980
Quizás desde que Boswell contrató al Dr.

2171
01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:51,200
Johnson alguna vez ha tenido tanto

2172
01:38:52,620 --> 01:38:53,260
de cerca,

2173
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:57,720
es decir, a cinco pies de distancia en todo momento el acceso.

2174
01:38:59,600 --> 01:39:00,920
A causa de eso,

2175
01:39:01,540 --> 01:39:03,100
Volveré a lo que dije hace un momento.

2176
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:05,580
Intento salirme del camino de la historia.

2177
01:39:06,180 --> 01:39:06,900
No es sobre mí.

2178
01:39:07,020 --> 01:39:09,140
No se trata de, trato de decir simplemente, está bien,

2179
01:39:10,320 --> 01:39:11,180
esto es lo que pasó.

2180
01:39:11,500 --> 01:39:12,280
Aquí está esta historia.

2181
01:39:12,300 --> 01:39:12,900
Esto es lo que pasó.

2182
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:17,460
Y luego, la noche en que entró en Twitter por primera vez y te dejó formar tu propio juicio.

2183
01:39:18,480 --> 01:39:19,380
¿Qué pasa con las entrevistas?

2184
01:39:20,460 --> 01:39:20,860
Tuviste

2185
01:39:21,880 --> 01:39:23,180
muchas conversaciones.

2186
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:27,220
Das reconocimiento a las personas con las que has entrevistado.

2187
01:39:28,660 --> 01:39:29,920
Bueno, uno, tengo que preguntar.

2188
01:39:31,000 --> 01:39:32,920
Como aspirante a entrevistador,

2189
01:39:34,140 --> 01:39:34,990
¿cómo?

2190
01:39:36,340 --> 01:39:37,220
A la gente le encanta hablar.

2191
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:39,080
La gente simplemente ama, lo sabes.

2192
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:44,380
He tenido 140, tal vez 150 personas, todas están enumeradas al final.

2193
01:39:45,100 --> 01:39:46,320
Una de las pequeñas cosas

2194
01:39:46,350 --> 01:39:47,880
que la gente no se dé cuenta,

2195
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:48,900
pero lo diré ahora,

2196
01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:50,960
Todos ellos están registrados.

2197
01:39:51,340 --> 01:39:52,880
Hacer que hablen es fácil.

2198
01:39:53,060 --> 01:39:54,480
Todos quieren hablar de mezquita.

2199
01:39:55,060 --> 01:39:56,400
Pero luego, en cierto momento, di:

2200
01:39:56,760 --> 01:39:58,880
No pongo citas anónimas en mi libro.

2201
01:39:59,920 --> 01:40:00,940
Cito cosas.

2202
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:02,180
Yo digo,

2203
01:40:02,700 --> 01:40:03,520
si eres lo suficientemente duro

2204
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:05,420
y has pasado por esto,

2205
01:40:06,080 --> 01:40:08,700
y muchas veces se necesitan dos o tres llamadas de regreso.

2206
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:11,120
Alguien me dirá, ay no, no, no, no quiero.

2207
01:40:11,660 --> 01:40:16,180
Pero creo que es importante saber de dónde vino todo.

2208
01:40:16,720 --> 01:40:17,600
Y con mezquitas,

2209
01:40:18,280 --> 01:40:19,000
tuve eso

2210
01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:21,480
desde el principio porque estaba

2211
01:40:21,480 --> 01:40:22,740
un reportero de la revista Time.

2212
01:40:22,900 --> 01:40:25,660
Había trabajado como reportero del Times-Picayune en Nueva Orleans.

2213
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:27,660
Primer día en el trabajo,

2214
01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:29,040
Tuve que ir a cubrir un asesinato.

2215
01:40:30,480 --> 01:40:33,320
Llamé para contar la historia desde un teléfono público y mi editor,

2216
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:35,140
el editor de la ciudad dijo,

2217
01:40:35,460 --> 01:40:36,880
Bueno, ¿hablaste con la familia?

2218
01:40:36,940 --> 01:40:37,600
Fui, no, Billy.

2219
01:40:37,700 --> 01:40:38,740
Quiero decir, la familia,

2220
01:40:39,060 --> 01:40:40,160
la hija acaba de llegar,

2221
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:41,940
dijo, ve a tocar la puerta.

2222
01:40:42,100 --> 01:40:43,100
Llamé a la puerta.

2223
01:40:43,900 --> 01:40:45,500
Una hora más tarde, todavía estaban hablando.

2224
01:40:45,560 --> 01:40:47,000
Estaban sacando su anuario.

2225
01:40:48,160 --> 01:40:49,000
Lección uno que aprendí,

2226
01:40:49,280 --> 01:40:52,340
La gente quiere hablar si estás dispuesto a simplemente escuchar.

2227
01:40:53,940 --> 01:40:55,700
Y ya sea Henry Kissinger,

2228
01:40:55,820 --> 01:40:57,640
simplemente presionas el botón y dices Kissinger,

2229
01:40:57,680 --> 01:40:59,000
y la gente te cuenta las historias.

2230
01:40:59,460 --> 01:41:00,860
A través de Elon Musk,

2231
01:41:02,120 --> 01:41:02,840
todos hablaban.

2232
01:41:03,060 --> 01:41:03,960
Todos en su familia,

2233
01:41:04,200 --> 01:41:05,880
a todos los que despidió, a todos.

2234
01:41:06,020 --> 01:41:06,320
Quiero decir,

2235
01:41:07,160 --> 01:41:08,860
Creo que es importante escuchar a la gente.

2236
01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:11,340
Y la otra cosa que aprendí como periodista,

2237
01:41:11,540 --> 01:41:13,560
Cuando cubría política en New Hampshire

2238
01:41:13,760 --> 01:41:14,980
y las primeras campañas,

2239
01:41:16,000 --> 01:41:16,900
aprendí de

2240
01:41:17,420 --> 01:41:20,480
dos o tres grandes reporteros, un tipo llamado David Broder y Tim Russert,

2241
01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:22,060
el difunto chico de NBC.

2242
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:24,320
Hacen lo que se llama tocar puertas.

2243
01:41:24,480 --> 01:41:25,560
Simplemente caminas en un vecindario,

2244
01:41:25,660 --> 01:41:26,580
tocar una puerta

2245
01:41:26,700 --> 01:41:28,340
y preguntarle a la gente sobre las elecciones.

2246
01:41:29,100 --> 01:41:30,420
Pero dijeron, aquí está el secreto.

2247
01:41:31,660 --> 01:41:33,260
No hagas preguntas capciosas.

2248
01:41:33,500 --> 01:41:34,620
No tienes ninguna premisa.

2249
01:41:35,060 --> 01:41:37,800
Sólo diga, oye, estoy tratando de entender esta elección.

2250
01:41:37,980 --> 01:41:38,720
¿Qué está sucediendo?

2251
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:40,480
¿Qué opinas?

2252
01:41:41,020 --> 01:41:42,000
Y luego quédate en silencio.

2253
01:41:42,660 --> 01:41:43,080
Con almizcle,

2254
01:41:43,460 --> 01:41:43,920
un tercer secreto,

2255
01:41:44,640 --> 01:41:45,520
lo sabes bien.

2256
01:41:46,660 --> 01:41:48,420
A veces se quedará en silencio.

2257
01:41:49,180 --> 01:41:49,660
A veces

2258
01:41:50,320 --> 01:41:51,700
un minuto, dos minutos, cuatro minutos.

2259
01:41:52,300 --> 01:41:53,640
No intentes llenar los silencios.

2260
01:41:54,440 --> 01:41:55,360
Si eres un oyente,

2261
01:41:56,380 --> 01:41:57,480
tienes que aprender,

2262
01:41:58,560 --> 01:41:58,940
bueno,

2263
01:41:59,500 --> 01:42:01,040
No dice nada durante cuatro minutos.

2264
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:02,760
Puedo sobrevivir a él.

2265
01:42:03,040 --> 01:42:03,500
Está duro.

2266
01:42:03,920 --> 01:42:04,780
Como humanos, es muy difícil.

2267
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:07,060
Respetar el silencio es realmente, muy difícil.

2268
01:42:09,180 --> 01:42:10,080
Hablando de demonios,

2269
01:42:11,020 --> 01:42:13,240
Cuando hay silencio, todos los demonios aparecen en mi cabeza.

2270
01:42:13,820 --> 01:42:17,320
El miedo, creo, es que si no digo nada,

2271
01:42:17,880 --> 01:42:18,540
es aburrido.

2272
01:42:18,620 --> 01:42:19,420
Y si digo algo,

2273
01:42:19,440 --> 01:42:20,200
va a ser estúpido.

2274
01:42:21,100 --> 01:42:23,420
Y ese es el motor básico que sigue funcionando.

2275
01:42:23,540 --> 01:42:24,620
No en el podcast,

2276
01:42:24,760 --> 01:42:27,380
en el podcast, pero también en la interacción humana.

2277
01:42:28,020 --> 01:42:30,140
Y entonces creo que hay esa energía nerviosa

2278
01:42:30,140 --> 01:42:31,260
al interactuar con las personas.

2279
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:33,260
Nunca puedes equivocarte

2280
01:42:33,980 --> 01:42:35,020
al permanecer en silencio

2281
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:37,880
si no hay nada que tengas que decir.

2282
01:42:38,540 --> 01:42:39,900
No es algo que haya dominado,

2283
01:42:40,880 --> 01:42:43,100
pero lo hago, cuando soy reportero,

2284
01:42:43,140 --> 01:42:44,880
Intenta dominar eso, que es

2285
01:42:46,580 --> 01:42:50,400
No hagas preguntas complejas.

2286
01:42:51,260 --> 01:42:53,480
No intervengas.

2287
01:42:54,300 --> 01:42:56,360
Y cuando alguien no ha respondido completamente a la pregunta,

2288
01:42:56,800 --> 01:42:57,960
no digas, bueno, déjame,

2289
01:42:58,380 --> 01:42:59,740
ya sabes, quédate en silencio

2290
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:01,600
y luego seguirán hablando.

2291
01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:03,860
Solo dales la oportunidad de seguir hablando.

2292
01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:05,440
Incluso si ya han terminado,

2293
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:06,140
aún.

2294
01:43:06,700 --> 01:43:08,140
A veces no te han dado lo suficiente.

2295
01:43:08,440 --> 01:43:09,760
En lugar de hacer un seguimiento,

2296
01:43:09,900 --> 01:43:12,140
Solo asentiré y

2297
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:12,980
Manténgase alejado.

2298
01:43:13,400 --> 01:43:14,460
Lo estás haciendo parecer simple.

2299
01:43:14,760 --> 01:43:15,220
Está ahí

2300
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:17,700
¿Un secreto para lograr que la gente se abra más?

2301
01:43:18,180 --> 01:43:19,420
tengo algo de suerte

2302
01:43:20,060 --> 01:43:22,120
porque, ya sabes, comencé a trabajar para

2303
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:24,000
un periódico diario

2304
01:43:25,040 --> 01:43:26,620
y la gente de entonces,

2305
01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:29,780
Quieren hablar con el periodista.

2306
01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:31,640
Pero también tienes una manera de ser.

2307
01:43:31,820 --> 01:43:32,900
Como, siento que tienes

2308
01:43:33,580 --> 01:43:35,300
como un vaquero en una taberna.

2309
01:43:35,320 --> 01:43:36,580
Como si simplemente quisieras hablar.

2310
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:37,840
Como si hubiera un empate.

2311
01:43:37,960 --> 01:43:38,460
No sé.

2312
01:43:39,540 --> 01:43:40,700
No sé qué es.

2313
01:43:40,840 --> 01:43:42,540
Tal vez sea, no sé si es desarrollador,

2314
01:43:42,580 --> 01:43:43,300
naces con eso,

2315
01:43:43,300 --> 01:43:46,020
pero hay una sensación como si quisiera contarles una historia de algún tipo.

2316
01:43:46,260 --> 01:43:47,660
Bueno, cuéntame una historia.

2317
01:43:47,980 --> 01:43:50,180
Un par de cosas.

2318
01:43:51,280 --> 01:43:51,900
aprendí

2319
01:43:53,260 --> 01:43:54,100
para estar más tranquilo.

2320
01:43:54,840 --> 01:43:57,020
Estoy seguro de que sé cuando estaba

2321
01:43:57,560 --> 01:43:58,560
más joven o incluso

2322
01:43:59,380 --> 01:44:02,640
Veré videos míos en, ya sabes,

2323
01:44:04,080 --> 01:44:07,100
noticias en las que siempre intento hacer una pregunta.

2324
01:44:07,740 --> 01:44:11,820
Y así aprendes a estar más tranquilo a veces.

2325
01:44:12,120 --> 01:44:13,240
No lo he dominado.

2326
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:14,340
No lo he aprendido lo suficiente.

2327
01:44:16,340 --> 01:44:18,380
Aprendes a ser curioso por naturaleza.

2328
01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:22,120
Muchos periodistas hoy en día, cuando hacen una pregunta

2329
01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:24,640
o están intentando jugar al gotcha o intentando

2330
01:44:24,660 --> 01:44:25,420
para recibir una noticia

2331
01:44:25,940 --> 01:44:27,120
sacar o intentarlo,

2332
01:44:28,620 --> 01:44:30,540
ya sabes, dar un concierto en algo que pueda hacer

2333
01:44:31,120 --> 01:44:31,780
una pista.

2334
01:44:33,080 --> 01:44:33,760
Y

2335
01:44:34,660 --> 01:44:36,080
si realmente

2336
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:37,720
son curiosos

2337
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:40,900
y realmente quieres saber la respuesta a una pregunta,

2338
01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:46,120
entonces la gente sabrá que lo preguntaste porque quieres la respuesta,

2339
01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:48,540
No porque estés jugando con ellos.

2340
01:44:50,040 --> 01:44:52,140
Estoy seguro de que algunos de ellos son extraoficiales.

2341
01:44:52,260 --> 01:44:53,420
algunos de ellos en el registro, tenías

2342
01:44:54,620 --> 01:44:55,300
tal vez,

2343
01:44:55,760 --> 01:44:56,020
sabes,

2344
01:44:57,460 --> 01:44:59,200
sólo algunas conversaciones increíbles.

2345
01:44:59,560 --> 01:45:01,220
Iba a decir algunas de las mejores conversaciones.

2346
01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:02,160
alguna vez, pero ¿quién sabe?

2347
01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:06,040
Algunas de las mejores conversaciones de la historia probablemente se produzcan en algún lugar de América del Sur.

2348
01:45:06,040 --> 01:45:08,660
entre dos borrachos que nunca llegamos a escuchar.

2349
01:45:08,900 --> 01:45:10,000
Entonces no lo sé, no lo sé.

2350
01:45:10,300 --> 01:45:11,260
Pero es

2351
01:45:12,260 --> 01:45:13,760
hay un dispositivo que puedes dar

2352
01:45:14,780 --> 01:45:18,960
de lo que has aprendido para alguien como yo y cómo tener una buena conversación,

2353
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:20,820
¿Especialmente una vez grabado?

2354
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:23,420
Bueno, para ser realmente curioso.

2355
01:45:23,940 --> 01:45:27,260
Quiero decir, cada pregunta que me has hecho es porque creo que realmente quieres saber

2356
01:45:27,260 --> 01:45:29,500
la respuesta y ya has hecho tu tarea

2357
01:45:30,420 --> 01:45:33,300
ser abierto y no tener una agenda.

2358
01:45:34,180 --> 01:45:35,660
Quiero decir, todos nosotros

2359
01:45:36,540 --> 01:45:39,980
Sufrimos porque hay demasiadas agendas en el mundo de hoy.

2360
01:45:41,220 --> 01:45:41,500
Sí.

2361
01:45:41,500 --> 01:45:42,980
Entonces eso es solo curiosidad genuina,

2362
01:45:43,200 --> 01:45:46,120
pero, um, hay algo cuando hablas

2363
01:45:46,140 --> 01:45:47,480
sobre solo interacción uno a uno,

2364
01:45:49,260 --> 01:45:50,820
ya sean trabajos de Elon o Steve o

2365
01:45:52,140 --> 01:45:53,180
Hay algo

2366
01:45:54,500 --> 01:45:56,580
hermoso en la mente de esa persona.

2367
01:45:57,280 --> 01:45:58,280
Y se siente como

2368
01:45:59,560 --> 01:46:00,520
Es posible

2369
01:46:01,240 --> 01:46:02,220
para revelar eso,

2370
01:46:03,500 --> 01:46:04,980
para descubrir que juntos

2371
01:46:06,420 --> 01:46:07,280
eficientemente.

2372
01:46:08,700 --> 01:46:10,660
Y ese es el objetivo de una conversación.

2373
01:46:11,160 --> 01:46:12,120
Bueno, quiero decir, mira,

2374
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:17,140
estás entre los mejores podcasters y entrevistadores

2375
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:18,780
en el mundo de hoy.

2376
01:46:19,720 --> 01:46:21,620
Tienes seriedad contigo.

2377
01:46:23,340 --> 01:46:26,320
Um, Ben Franklin es la persona que me enseñó,

2378
01:46:27,000 --> 01:46:27,600
Quiero decir,

2379
01:46:28,040 --> 01:46:28,680
leyéndolo

2380
01:46:29,260 --> 01:46:31,360
más sobre la conversación.

2381
01:46:31,520 --> 01:46:33,400
Escribió un ensayo maravilloso sobre eso.

2382
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:35,200
Incluye el silencio.

2383
01:46:36,700 --> 01:46:36,840
Oh,

2384
01:46:37,940 --> 01:46:39,540
pero incluye

2385
01:46:41,460 --> 01:46:45,520
tratando de hacer preguntas sinceras en lugar de

2386
01:46:46,880 --> 01:46:47,780
conseguir un punto claro.

2387
01:46:48,800 --> 01:46:49,300
Quiero decir,

2388
01:46:50,180 --> 01:46:56,640
es algo socrático, pero cada vez que se preguntaba,

2389
01:46:57,360 --> 01:47:00,900
Quería iniciar un núcleo de bomberos en Filadelfia.

2390
01:47:02,680 --> 01:47:05,800
Iría a su grupo al que llamaba el club del delantal de cuero.

2391
01:47:06,560 --> 01:47:07,680
y me plantearían una pregunta.

2392
01:47:08,080 --> 01:47:09,220
¿Por qué no lo tenemos?

2393
01:47:10,020 --> 01:47:11,060
¿Qué haría falta?

2394
01:47:11,200 --> 01:47:11,940
¿Qué sería bueno?

2395
01:47:12,400 --> 01:47:15,220
Y luego, la segunda parte es asegurarse de escuchar.

2396
01:47:15,740 --> 01:47:17,760
Y si alguien acaba de

2397
01:47:17,780 --> 01:47:19,040
el germen de una idea,

2398
01:47:20,040 --> 01:47:21,340
darles crédito por ello.

2399
01:47:21,440 --> 01:47:21,580
Como

2400
01:47:22,260 --> 01:47:23,240
como dijo joe,

2401
01:47:23,780 --> 01:47:26,080
Ya sabes, el verdadero problema es este,

2402
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:31,960
y yo creo que

2403
01:47:33,060 --> 01:47:37,420
Si estoy en situaciones y me refiero incluso a una cena o algo así,

2404
01:47:37,900 --> 01:47:38,420
estoy con alguien,

2405
01:47:39,940 --> 01:47:42,280
Normalmente tengo curiosidad y,

2406
01:47:42,860 --> 01:47:44,300
la conversación continuará,

2407
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:46,540
ya sabes, con, con preguntas.

2408
01:47:46,740 --> 01:47:49,580
Y supongo que también es porque

2409
01:47:49,580 --> 01:47:52,660
Estoy bastante interesado en lo que todos están haciendo.

2410
01:47:52,860 --> 01:47:53,960
con quien sea que esté.

2411
01:47:55,820 --> 01:47:56,820
Y eso es

2412
01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:01,680
un talento que tienes, que es que eres bastante genuino en tus intereses.

2413
01:48:02,860 --> 01:48:03,480
Hay gente

2414
01:48:04,500 --> 01:48:05,660
como Benjamín Franklin,

2415
01:48:06,180 --> 01:48:06,500
como el,

2416
01:48:07,340 --> 01:48:08,440
Diré Charlie Rose,

2417
01:48:08,460 --> 01:48:09,900
aunque esté en desgracia,

2418
01:48:10,380 --> 01:48:12,740
que están interesados en una gran cantidad de temas.

2419
01:48:12,740 --> 01:48:14,280
Y creo que eso también ayuda.

2420
01:48:14,680 --> 01:48:19,640
estar interesado en el baloncesto, la ópera, la física y la metafísica.

2421
01:48:21,140 --> 01:48:21,760
Uh, ese era un Ben

2422
01:48:21,780 --> 01:48:23,620
Franklin, ese fue un truco de Leonardo.

2423
01:48:24,060 --> 01:48:24,300
cual es

2424
01:48:25,160 --> 01:48:26,740
querían saber todo lo que pudieras

2425
01:48:26,740 --> 01:48:28,240
posiblemente conozca todos los temas conocibles.

2426
01:48:30,220 --> 01:48:32,240
Pero hay un aspecto diferente de esto,

2427
01:48:32,540 --> 01:48:33,400
que es, um,

2428
01:48:34,200 --> 01:48:36,000
que me encantaría escuchar

2429
01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:38,260
cómo lo has solucionado o si lo has afrontado,

2430
01:48:38,720 --> 01:48:39,860
que sin duda estás desarmando.

2431
01:48:41,860 --> 01:48:41,900
Oh,

2432
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:44,500
Mira, te estoy llenando de elogios.

2433
01:48:44,540 --> 01:48:45,300
tratando de atraparte.

2434
01:48:45,440 --> 01:48:46,500
Ése es un método muy desarmante.

2435
01:48:46,660 --> 01:48:47,040
Sí.

2436
01:48:47,400 --> 01:48:49,260
Recientemente hablé con Benjamin y Yahoo.

2437
01:48:49,480 --> 01:48:50,480
Hablaremos de nuevo.

2438
01:48:50,700 --> 01:48:54,140
Desafortunadamente, debido a la programación y las complejidades, solo tuvimos una hora,

2439
01:48:54,200 --> 01:48:55,620
lo cual es muy difícil,

2440
01:48:55,920 --> 01:48:56,900
muy dificil

2441
01:48:57,340 --> 01:48:58,720
con el carismático político.

2442
01:48:59,660 --> 01:49:00,460
Entiendo esto,

2443
01:49:00,780 --> 01:49:03,240
pero también es un conversador carismático,

2444
01:49:03,240 --> 01:49:05,500
lo cual es muy difícil de superar en una hora.

2445
01:49:07,060 --> 01:49:08,080
Um, pero hay gente que tiene

2446
01:49:09,040 --> 01:49:09,840
muros construidos,

2447
01:49:10,220 --> 01:49:12,380
ya sea por demonios o por,

2448
01:49:12,380 --> 01:49:13,320
uh, sus políticos.

2449
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:15,100
Y entonces tienen agendas y

2450
01:49:15,100 --> 01:49:15,980
narrativas, etc.

2451
01:49:16,080 --> 01:49:17,900
Y así, para superarlos,

2452
01:49:18,620 --> 01:49:20,660
Um, me pregunto si hay algún consejo, algún

2453
01:49:21,040 --> 01:49:23,940
sabiduría que has aprendido sobre cómo, uh,

2454
01:49:24,760 --> 01:49:27,280
tipo de desgaste a través del agua o lo que sea,

2455
01:49:28,900 --> 01:49:29,920
o cualquier método,

2456
01:49:30,340 --> 01:49:32,300
los, los muros que hemos construido como individuos.

2457
01:49:33,220 --> 01:49:34,500
Quiero decir, lo llamas desarmar.

2458
01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:36,580
que no sé que soy,

2459
01:49:36,700 --> 01:49:38,380
pero desarmar básicamente significa

2460
01:49:38,380 --> 01:49:40,600
También estás derribando sus escudos.

2461
01:49:41,500 --> 01:49:43,600
Y ya sabes, cuando la gente tiene un escudo.

2462
01:49:45,060 --> 01:49:47,860
y tratas de darles consuelo,

2463
01:49:48,520 --> 01:49:51,120
No tuve ningún problema con Elon Musk.

2464
01:49:51,780 --> 01:49:52,400
Quiero decir, fue

2465
01:49:53,180 --> 01:49:54,160
como desarmarme,

2466
01:49:54,560 --> 01:49:54,820
cual es

2467
01:49:55,420 --> 01:49:56,640
Seguí esperando para decir,

2468
01:49:56,720 --> 01:49:57,580
Está bien, él no va a hacerlo.

2469
01:49:57,700 --> 01:49:59,440
él tiene un caparazón o no hará eso.

2470
01:50:00,100 --> 01:50:00,620
Pero

2471
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:01,700
él era,

2472
01:50:02,700 --> 01:50:04,040
em,

2473
01:50:04,600 --> 01:50:05,100
casi

2474
01:50:05,760 --> 01:50:09,280
locamente abierto

2475
01:50:10,360 --> 01:50:14,400
y no pareció, uh,

2476
01:50:14,900 --> 01:50:18,080
Quiero estar dando vueltas, escondiendo o fingiendo cosas.

2477
01:50:18,980 --> 01:50:20,240
Eh,

2478
01:50:21,240 --> 01:50:22,300
y he tenido suerte.

2479
01:50:23,280 --> 01:50:24,360
Doudna era así.

2480
01:50:25,100 --> 01:50:27,160
Steve Jobs era así,

2481
01:50:27,780 --> 01:50:29,260
que también hay que dedicarle tiempo.

2482
01:50:29,480 --> 01:50:30,200
En otras palabras,

2483
01:50:31,220 --> 01:50:36,140
No puedes decir, está bien, hay una entrevista de una hora y voy a derribar todos los muros.

2484
01:50:36,400 --> 01:50:37,800
Es como en tu quinta visita.

2485
01:50:39,620 --> 01:50:41,660
Una de las cosas en mi situación, se aprende.

2486
01:50:43,320 --> 01:50:44,500
La quinta visita es muy agradable.

2487
01:50:44,620 --> 01:50:45,980
pero a veces no consigues una quinta visita.

2488
01:50:46,400 --> 01:50:47,540
A veces es sólo la primera cita.

2489
01:50:48,420 --> 01:50:48,880
Y, em,

2490
01:50:49,480 --> 01:50:51,200
Creo que a lo que se reduce,

2491
01:50:51,280 --> 01:50:52,560
y dijimos desarmar,

2492
01:50:52,840 --> 01:50:56,640
pero hay algo en esta persona que

2493
01:50:57,320 --> 01:50:57,840
tú confías.

2494
01:50:58,740 --> 01:51:00,400
Creo que mucho de esto se reduce a confiar.

2495
01:51:01,120 --> 01:51:02,540
de alguna manera profundamente humana.

2496
01:51:03,200 --> 01:51:03,640
Y yo pienso,

2497
01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:07,260
uh, con, con, uh, con muchas de las personas con las que he hablado,

2498
01:51:07,700 --> 01:51:10,060
a veces la confianza surge como después de la entrevista,

2499
01:51:10,580 --> 01:51:11,800
lo cual es realmente triste porque

2500
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:12,980
es como, oh hombre,

2501
01:51:13,340 --> 01:51:16,320
Nunca he estado en tu situación donde tengo un espectáculo.

2502
01:51:17,100 --> 01:51:17,760
Usualmente tengo.

2503
01:51:19,340 --> 01:51:19,660
Segundo,

2504
01:51:19,960 --> 01:51:23,720
No soy una persona de primera cita.

2505
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:24,200
Sí.

2506
01:51:24,200 --> 01:51:24,420
Sí.

2507
01:51:24,420 --> 01:51:24,660
Sí.

2508
01:51:24,720 --> 01:51:24,880
Bien,

2509
01:51:25,240 --> 01:51:26,520
Ya sabes, pero tengo suerte.

2510
01:51:26,680 --> 01:51:28,980
Quiero decir, estoy dentro, digo suerte, pero estoy impreso,

2511
01:51:29,560 --> 01:51:29,960
sabes,

2512
01:51:30,520 --> 01:51:33,960
la impresión es un medio de un par de miles de años,

2513
01:51:34,100 --> 01:51:35,320
pero hay quienes nos encantan.

2514
01:51:35,960 --> 01:51:39,840
Bueno, la naturaleza del medio podcast es que soy uno,

2515
01:51:39,840 --> 01:51:40,940
Una chica tipo aventura de una noche.

2516
01:51:41,990 --> 01:51:42,740
Oh,

2517
01:51:43,240 --> 01:51:44,600
Déjame preguntarte sobre la objetividad.

2518
01:51:44,600 --> 01:51:46,880
Seguiste a Elon y sigues a Steve.

2519
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:47,620
como eres,

2520
01:51:48,460 --> 01:51:50,240
Quiero decir, ni siquiera sé si dirías que tu amigo,

2521
01:51:50,840 --> 01:51:52,420
hay que tener cuidado con palabras así,

2522
01:51:52,420 --> 01:51:53,680
pero estás, hay una intimidad.

2523
01:51:54,040 --> 01:51:58,820
Um, ¿y cómo te mantienes objetivo?

2524
01:52:00,100 --> 01:52:03,780
¿Quieres ser objetivo mientras cuentas una historia profundamente humana?

2525
01:52:03,900 --> 01:52:04,260
Sí.

2526
01:52:04,480 --> 01:52:06,120
Quiero decir, quiero ser honesto,

2527
01:52:06,600 --> 01:52:09,540
lo cual creo que es similar a ser objetivo.

2528
01:52:11,100 --> 01:52:12,800
Uh, trato de tener en cuenta

2529
01:52:14,250 --> 01:52:16,020
¿Para quién escribo?

2530
01:52:16,700 --> 01:52:18,140
No estoy escribiendo para Elon Musk.

2531
01:52:18,640 --> 01:52:19,220
Como he dicho,

2532
01:52:19,860 --> 01:52:20,880
No le he enviado el libro.

2533
01:52:21,260 --> 01:52:22,140
No sé si él,

2534
01:52:22,400 --> 01:52:23,940
No creo que lo haya leído todavía.

2535
01:52:24,140 --> 01:52:25,480
Eh,

2536
01:52:26,380 --> 01:52:27,620
Tengo una persona para la que estoy escribiendo.

2537
01:52:27,840 --> 01:52:30,480
el lector de mente abierta.

2538
01:52:31,400 --> 01:52:32,300
Y

2539
01:52:33,600 --> 01:52:35,360
si puedo poner

2540
01:52:35,980 --> 01:52:37,600
una historia y decir, bueno, eso será

2541
01:52:38,360 --> 01:52:41,940
cabrear al sujeto o que realmente lo hará feliz.

2542
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:44,100
Eso es irrelevante.

2543
01:52:44,300 --> 01:52:45,320
O trato de hacer

2544
01:52:45,320 --> 01:52:47,000
Esa es una consideración menor.

2545
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:49,500
es voluntad del lector

2546
01:52:51,240 --> 01:52:53,500
tener una mejor comprensión porque

2547
01:52:53,520 --> 01:52:55,200
He puesto esta historia en el libro.

2548
01:52:57,520 --> 01:52:58,520
Soy un poco romántico.

2549
01:53:00,560 --> 01:53:04,640
Entonces, para mí, incluso tu libro de Einstein tenía lecciones.

2550
01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:07,280
sobre romance y relaciones.

2551
01:53:07,460 --> 01:53:08,000
Oh querido.

2552
01:53:09,260 --> 01:53:13,680
Entonces, ¿qué importancia tienen las relaciones románticas para el éxito de grandes hombres, grandes mujeres y

2553
01:53:14,040 --> 01:53:14,480
¿grandes mentes?

2554
01:53:16,060 --> 01:53:20,400
Bueno, a veces personas que afectan el curso de la humanidad.

2555
01:53:21,180 --> 01:53:22,500
tener mejores relaciones con

2556
01:53:22,580 --> 01:53:26,140
humanidad que con los humanos sentados a su alrededor.

2557
01:53:26,480 --> 01:53:28,800
Einstein había

2558
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:31,940
dos relaciones interesantes

2559
01:53:32,380 --> 01:53:32,840
con esposas.

2560
01:53:33,500 --> 01:53:35,440
Su, ya sabes, Maleva, su primera esposa fue

2561
01:53:35,980 --> 01:53:37,600
una caja de resonancia y ayuda con el

2562
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:40,800
matemáticas del artículo de relatividad especial en particular.

2563
01:53:41,680 --> 01:53:42,260
Eh,

2564
01:53:42,820 --> 01:53:44,200
pero él no la trató

2565
01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:44,520
Bueno.

2566
01:53:44,800 --> 01:53:45,300
Quiero decir, él,

2567
01:53:46,040 --> 01:53:50,400
uh, la hizo firmar una carta para que no lo interrumpiera.

2568
01:53:50,440 --> 01:53:53,940
Ella no lo haría, ya sabes, y finalmente cuando quiso divorciarse,

2569
01:53:53,940 --> 01:53:54,800
no podía permitírselo

2570
01:53:55,460 --> 01:53:56,500
porque todavía era empleado de patentes.

2571
01:53:58,180 --> 01:54:00,460
Y entonces, le ofreció un trato.

2572
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:02,820
Lo cual creo que es totalmente asombroso.

2573
01:54:03,360 --> 01:54:03,760
Él dijo,

2574
01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:04,800
uno de estos días,

2575
01:54:04,900 --> 01:54:06,360
uno de esos papeles de 1905

2576
01:54:07,100 --> 01:54:08,400
va a ganar el premio Nobel.

2577
01:54:09,740 --> 01:54:09,920
Si

2578
01:54:10,500 --> 01:54:11,540
nos divorciamos,

2579
01:54:12,380 --> 01:54:14,100
uh, ya sabes, te daré el dinero.

2580
01:54:15,300 --> 01:54:16,100
Eh,

2581
01:54:16,460 --> 01:54:17,120
eso fue mucho dinero

2582
01:54:17,260 --> 01:54:19,280
en aquel entonces, como un millón de dólares ahora o algo así.

2583
01:54:20,200 --> 01:54:21,220
Y ella es inteligente.

2584
01:54:21,300 --> 01:54:22,140
Ella es una científica.

2585
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:24,100
Consulta con algunos otros científicos.

2586
01:54:24,100 --> 01:54:26,340
Y después de aproximadamente una semana acepta la apuesta.

2587
01:54:27,240 --> 01:54:28,540
¿Es hasta qué?

2588
01:54:28,850 --> 01:54:30,920
¿1919 cuando gana su premio Nobel?

2589
01:54:32,880 --> 01:54:33,640
Ah, y

2590
01:54:34,500 --> 01:54:35,400
ella recibe todo el dinero.

2591
01:54:35,440 --> 01:54:37,360
Compra tres edificios de apartamentos en Zurich.

2592
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:40,480
Uh, con su segunda esposa, Elsa,

2593
01:54:41,240 --> 01:54:44,360
era más una asociación de conveniencia.

2594
01:54:44,820 --> 01:54:45,660
No era

2595
01:54:46,400 --> 01:54:47,500
un amor romántico,

2596
01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:52,820
pero él lo sabía, y eso es a veces lo que la gente necesita en la vida es simplemente un compañero.

2597
01:54:53,500 --> 01:54:56,180
Quiero decir, alguien que se encargará de las cosas que tú no vas a manejar.

2598
01:54:56,880 --> 01:54:59,380
Así que supongo que si miras mis libros,

2599
01:55:00,980 --> 01:55:05,460
no son grandes guías inspiradoras para las relaciones personales.

2600
01:55:06,620 --> 01:55:09,380
Déjame preguntarte sobre el proceso de escritura en sí.

2601
01:55:10,260 --> 01:55:12,260
Cuando has observado, cuando has escuchado,

2602
01:55:13,000 --> 01:55:14,540
cuando hayas recopilado toda la información,

2603
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:18,040
¿Qué es, eh, tal vez incluso lo tonto y mundano?

2604
01:55:18,040 --> 01:55:22,640
¿Qué desayunas antes de empezar a escribir?

2605
01:55:22,840 --> 01:55:23,520
¿Cuándo escribes?

2606
01:55:23,820 --> 01:55:24,260
En primer lugar,

2607
01:55:24,560 --> 01:55:26,380
El desayuno no es mi comida favorita.

2608
01:55:26,680 --> 01:55:28,760
Y esa gente que te dice que tu

2609
01:55:28,760 --> 01:55:30,200
hay que empezar con un buen desayuno,

2610
01:55:31,260 --> 01:55:32,580
Miro de reojo.

2611
01:55:32,860 --> 01:55:33,300
Sí.

2612
01:55:33,460 --> 01:55:35,320
Uh, y la mañana no es mi favorita.

2613
01:55:35,440 --> 01:55:35,920
parte del día.

2614
01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:38,620
Entonces escribo por la noche y

2615
01:55:39,140 --> 01:55:41,460
porque me encanta la narrativa,

2616
01:55:42,100 --> 01:55:43,800
es fácil estructurar un libro,

2617
01:55:44,120 --> 01:55:49,920
es decir, puedo hacer un esquema que si lo imprimiera o tomaría notas

2618
01:55:50,840 --> 01:55:51,840
cien páginas,

2619
01:55:52,420 --> 01:55:53,760
pero todo está en orden.

2620
01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:55,020
En otras palabras,

2621
01:55:56,960 --> 01:56:00,100
si servimos, si hay un hombre en llamas

2622
01:56:00,100 --> 01:56:03,280
y él regresa de Grimes y luego hay algo del techo solar,

2623
01:56:03,280 --> 01:56:04,400
y luego hay algo,

2624
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:07,240
lo puse todo en orden

2625
01:56:07,820 --> 01:56:08,720
día a día

2626
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:10,720
como un esquema.

2627
01:56:11,020 --> 01:56:12,360
Y eso me disciplina cuando

2628
01:56:12,360 --> 01:56:18,240
Estoy empezando a escribir para seguir el mantra de Alice Mayhew, mi primera editora,

2629
01:56:18,760 --> 01:56:20,380
que es todo a su debido tiempo.

2630
01:56:20,420 --> 01:56:21,520
No te adelantes a la historia.

2631
01:56:21,560 --> 01:56:23,040
No tienes que retroceder.

2632
01:56:24,380 --> 01:56:26,080
Um, y luego después de que lo consigas

2633
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:28,360
para que sea todo cronológico,

2634
01:56:28,380 --> 01:56:30,560
ya sabes, cosas, entonces tienes que hacer un poco de agrupación.

2635
01:56:31,120 --> 01:56:32,060
Sabes, tienes que decir,

2636
01:56:32,140 --> 01:56:35,320
Está bien, vamos a hacer lo

2637
01:56:35,320 --> 01:56:40,600
decisión de hacer Starship o construir una fábrica en Texas o lo que sea.

2638
01:56:41,100 --> 01:56:45,020
Y luego, a veces, tienes el problema organizativo de,

2639
01:56:45,320 --> 01:56:46,420
Sí, y eso nos atrapa a todos.

2640
01:56:46,420 --> 01:56:47,460
el camino hasta aquí.

2641
01:56:48,140 --> 01:56:49,260
¿Lo guardo en esto?

2642
01:56:49,260 --> 01:56:52,460
ese capitulo o espero hasta

2643
01:56:52,680 --> 01:56:55,080
¿más tarde cuando sea mejor cronológicamente?

2644
01:56:55,660 --> 01:56:56,440
Pero esos son fáciles.

2645
01:56:57,080 --> 01:56:59,200
Bueno, ¿qué pasa con la realidad?

2646
01:56:59,880 --> 01:57:00,700
proceso de

2647
01:57:01,260 --> 01:57:02,140
contando la historia?

2648
01:57:02,880 --> 01:57:05,120
Bueno, ese es el mantra que mencioné antes,

2649
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:06,980
que es cada vez que tengo

2650
01:57:08,120 --> 01:57:09,460
pausa o no sé cómo

2651
01:57:09,840 --> 01:57:10,420
Di algo,

2652
01:57:10,840 --> 01:57:12,480
Sólo digo, déjame contarte una historia.

2653
01:57:12,660 --> 01:57:13,980
Y luego encuentro

2654
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:17,580
la anécdota real, la historia,

2655
01:57:18,880 --> 01:57:22,780
el relato que engloba lo que intento transmitir.

2656
01:57:23,200 --> 01:57:24,560
Y luego no digo lo que estoy intentando

2657
01:57:24,700 --> 01:57:25,060
transmitir.

2658
01:57:25,340 --> 01:57:28,700
No tengo una oración de transición que diga:

2659
01:57:28,720 --> 01:57:33,960
Ya sabes, Elon a veces cambia de opinión con tanta frecuencia que no podía recordar si había cambiado de opinión o,

2660
01:57:34,240 --> 01:57:34,920
sabes, no lo haces,

2661
01:57:35,420 --> 01:57:37,180
no necesitas oraciones de transición.

2662
01:57:37,900 --> 01:57:38,480
Sólo dices,

2663
01:57:38,860 --> 01:57:41,100
Muy bien, este es el punto que necesito señalar a continuación.

2664
01:57:41,840 --> 01:57:42,500
Y entonces

2665
01:57:43,080 --> 01:57:45,040
comienzas con una oración que dice,

2666
01:57:46,020 --> 01:57:49,700
ya sabes, un día de enero en la fábrica de Texas, coma.

2667
01:57:51,020 --> 01:57:56,980
Bueno, una de las cosas que me encantaría pedirte es un consejo para,

2668
01:57:56,980 --> 01:57:58,800
para los jóvenes, para mí,

2669
01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:08,440
El primer consejo sería leer biografías en el sentido de que te ayudan a comprender todos los

2670
01:58:08,500 --> 01:58:10,520
diferentes maneras en que puedes vivir una vida bien vivida.

2671
01:58:11,540 --> 01:58:14,000
Pero de haber escrito biografías,

2672
01:58:14,180 --> 01:58:17,300
habiendo estudiado a tantos grandes hombres y mujeres,

2673
01:58:17,980 --> 01:58:21,760
¿Qué consejo podrías darle a la gente sobre cómo vivir esto?

2674
01:58:22,280 --> 01:58:22,700
¿esta vida?

2675
01:58:23,020 --> 01:58:28,040
Bueno, sigo volviendo a los clásicos, a Platón, a Aristóteles y a Sócrates.

2676
01:58:30,060 --> 01:58:33,240
Y supongo que es la máxima de Platón, pero puede que esté citando a Sócrates,

2677
01:58:33,760 --> 01:58:35,760
que la vida no examinada no vale la pena vivirla.

2678
01:58:37,220 --> 01:58:39,100
Y vuelve a conocerte a ti mismo,

2679
01:58:39,520 --> 01:58:41,320
cual es

2680
01:58:42,200 --> 01:58:44,080
no tienes que averiguar cuál es el gran

2681
01:58:44,100 --> 01:58:45,040
significado de todo esto,

2682
01:58:45,560 --> 01:58:46,840
pero tienes que descubrir

2683
01:58:47,740 --> 01:58:49,220
por qué estás haciendo lo que estás haciendo.

2684
01:58:50,780 --> 01:58:51,120
Y

2685
01:58:52,100 --> 01:58:57,160
eso requiere algo de lo que no tuve suficiente cuando era joven,

2686
01:58:58,200 --> 01:59:00,540
que es la autoconciencia

2687
01:59:01,660 --> 01:59:03,800
y examinando cada motivo,

2688
01:59:04,600 --> 01:59:05,440
todo lo que hago.

2689
01:59:07,640 --> 01:59:09,360
¿A dónde te lleva el examen?

2690
01:59:10,020 --> 01:59:13,900
¿Es para, para, para un cambio en,

2691
01:59:16,640 --> 01:59:17,680
en la trayectoria de la vida?

2692
01:59:17,900 --> 01:59:18,360
Quiero decir,

2693
01:59:18,960 --> 01:59:21,080
no es para mí,

2694
01:59:21,220 --> 01:59:24,400
Muy bien, ya lo he decidido después de haber sido periodista.

2695
01:59:24,500 --> 01:59:27,460
Dirigiré un grupo de expertos o dirigiré una red.

2696
01:59:27,460 --> 01:59:28,480
o escribiré una biografía.

2697
01:59:30,020 --> 01:59:33,580
En realidad, es algo que resulta más útil cada hora.

2698
01:59:34,360 --> 01:59:34,860
Como,

2699
01:59:35,660 --> 01:59:40,220
¿Por qué estoy a punto de decirle eso a alguien o por qué voy a

2700
01:59:41,380 --> 01:59:43,280
hacer este acto en particular?

2701
01:59:44,360 --> 01:59:47,060
¿Cuál es mi verdadero motivo aquí?

2702
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:50,200
Y también en el sentido más amplio.

2703
01:59:50,820 --> 01:59:53,380
aprender como lo hice después de un par de años en CNN,

2704
01:59:55,980 --> 02:00:02,850
Yo, mi examen de mi vida es que no soy bueno dirigiendo organizaciones complejas.

2705
02:00:03,860 --> 02:00:05,640
No soy muy bueno como gerente,

2706
02:00:06,380 --> 02:00:06,960
dada la opción.

2707
02:00:06,980 --> 02:00:08,960
Preferiría que alguien más tuviera que gestionarme

2708
02:00:08,960 --> 02:00:10,400
que yo tengo que gestionar personas.

2709
02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:13,540
Pero me tomó un tiempo darme cuenta de eso.

2710
02:00:14,040 --> 02:00:14,680
Y yo probablemente estaba

2711
02:00:14,680 --> 02:00:18,040
demasiado ambicioso cuando era joven y en la revista Time.

2712
02:00:19,000 --> 02:00:21,100
Eso fue cuando yo era verde y,

2713
02:00:21,880 --> 02:00:22,240
Oh bien,

2714
02:00:22,800 --> 02:00:25,880
Eso fue cuando estaba en mis días de ensalada en verde y juicio.

2715
02:00:27,260 --> 02:00:29,280
Y era como perseguir

2716
02:00:30,680 --> 02:00:32,880
el siguiente nivel en Time Incorporated,

2717
02:00:32,880 --> 02:00:34,060
sea lo que sea.

2718
02:00:35,080 --> 02:00:40,640
Y entonces, un día cogí el anillo de bronce y me convertí en editor y luego en editor principal.

2719
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:42,560
Y después de un tiempo me di cuenta

2720
02:00:43,380 --> 02:00:44,860
eso no fue

2721
02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:48,020
realmente totalmente lo que estoy preparado para ser,

2722
02:00:48,020 --> 02:00:50,480
Especialmente cuando me pusieron a cargo de CNN.

2723
02:00:51,580 --> 02:00:53,660
Quiero decir, todos los jóvenes están casi por

2724
02:00:53,680 --> 02:00:56,460
definición en sus días de ensalada en verde y juicio.

2725
02:00:57,600 --> 02:00:57,840
Pero

2726
02:00:59,160 --> 02:01:00,320
usted aprende

2727
02:01:00,980 --> 02:01:02,660
¿Qué te motiva?

2728
02:01:02,720 --> 02:01:04,600
Y luego aprendes a preguntar,

2729
02:01:06,160 --> 02:01:08,400
pero ¿es eso realmente lo que quiero?

2730
02:01:08,520 --> 02:01:10,600
¿Debo tener cuidado con lo que deseo?

2731
02:01:13,320 --> 02:01:13,820
Uno de

2732
02:01:14,480 --> 02:01:17,280
Los grandes exámenes que puedes hacer es el hecho.

2733
02:01:17,820 --> 02:01:20,220
que tú y todos mueran algún día.

2734
02:01:21,700 --> 02:01:22,740
¿Cuánto alteras?

2735
02:01:23,360 --> 02:01:24,020
¿Isaacson?

2736
02:01:24,140 --> 02:01:24,760
Piensa en la muerte.

2737
02:01:25,100 --> 02:01:25,860
¿Le tienes miedo?

2738
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:28,000
No, y no pienso mucho en ello.

2739
02:01:28,060 --> 02:01:29,780
Pero sí pienso en Steve Jobs,

2740
02:01:29,880 --> 02:01:30,800
dejame contarte una historia,

2741
02:01:30,840 --> 02:01:34,300
cuál es la maravillosa historia de Steve Jobs,

2742
02:01:35,120 --> 02:01:36,120
Creo que después de que él fuera

2743
02:01:36,120 --> 02:01:37,740
diagnosticado, pero antes de que fuera público.

2744
02:01:38,400 --> 02:01:41,140
Y les dio a ambos una charla en Stanford, pero otras cosas,

2745
02:01:42,120 --> 02:01:43,400
en el que dijo

2746
02:01:44,160 --> 02:01:46,600
el hecho de que vamos a morir

2747
02:01:47,700 --> 02:01:48,240
te da enfoque

2748
02:01:48,760 --> 02:01:49,380
y te da significado.

2749
02:01:49,560 --> 02:01:50,260
Si vas a vivir,

2750
02:01:50,660 --> 02:01:52,660
y Elon Musk me ha dicho eso,

2751
02:01:52,840 --> 02:01:54,520
que es mucha de la tecnología

2752
02:01:54,520 --> 02:01:58,420
hermanos de Silicon Valley que buscan formas de vivir para siempre.

2753
02:01:59,080 --> 02:02:00,680
Puedo pensar, dice Musk,

2754
02:02:01,000 --> 02:02:02,440
de nada peor.

2755
02:02:03,160 --> 02:02:08,600
Leemos el mito de Sísifo y sabemos lo malo que es estar condenado a la vida eterna.

2756
02:02:10,460 --> 02:02:11,080
Entonces

2757
02:02:12,820 --> 02:02:15,060
había una antigua Grecia,

2758
02:02:15,220 --> 02:02:19,020
la persona que caminó detrás del rey y dijo, memento mori,

2759
02:02:19,540 --> 02:02:20,680
recuerda que vas a morir.

2760
02:02:21,400 --> 02:02:26,540
Y evitó que la gente

2761
02:02:27,520 --> 02:02:28,860
perdiéndolo un poco.

2762
02:02:28,860 --> 02:02:30,320
¿Piensas en el legado?

2763
02:02:30,940 --> 02:02:33,780
La suerte de ser biógrafo

2764
02:02:34,820 --> 02:02:37,100
es que sabes cuál es tu legado.

2765
02:02:37,380 --> 02:02:39,600
Habrá un estante y será interesante.

2766
02:02:39,620 --> 02:02:44,400
gente y habrás inspirado a un chico de 17 años

2767
02:02:44,940 --> 02:02:48,360
estudiante de biología en algún lugar para estar

2768
02:02:49,020 --> 02:02:55,620
el próximo gran bioquímico o alguien que inicie una empresa como Elon Musk.

2769
02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:02,060
Y en lo que pienso más,

2770
02:03:02,500 --> 02:03:03,540
No diré devolver,

2771
02:03:03,600 --> 02:03:04,940
eso es algo tan trillado.

2772
02:03:05,560 --> 02:03:07,140
Regresé a Nueva Orleans

2773
02:03:08,800 --> 02:03:09,520
por una razón.

2774
02:03:09,960 --> 02:03:11,220
En primer lugar, llegó el huracán.

2775
02:03:11,820 --> 02:03:13,520
Y después de Katrina, me pidieron que

2776
02:03:14,300 --> 02:03:16,520
ser vicepresidente de la autoridad de recuperación.

2777
02:03:17,040 --> 02:03:17,620
Y me di cuenta

2778
02:03:18,360 --> 02:03:20,020
todo lo que tengo a mi favor,

2779
02:03:20,820 --> 02:03:21,680
todo viene de esto

2780
02:03:22,340 --> 02:03:22,940
hermoso

2781
02:03:23,940 --> 02:03:26,060
Joya de una ciudad conflictiva.

2782
02:03:27,200 --> 02:03:29,060
La maravillosa escuela secundaria a la que fui,

2783
02:03:29,080 --> 02:03:31,360
las maravillosas calles donde aprendí

2784
02:03:31,380 --> 02:03:35,680
andar en bicicleta y tiene desafíos.

2785
02:03:36,220 --> 02:03:38,120
Nunca voy a resolver desafíos.

2786
02:03:38,940 --> 02:03:41,120
a gran nivel mundial,

2787
02:03:41,600 --> 02:03:43,160
pero puedo volver a casa

2788
02:03:43,940 --> 02:03:46,360
y decir que parte de mi legado va a ser,

2789
02:03:46,980 --> 02:03:48,440
Intenté devolverlo

2790
02:03:49,480 --> 02:03:50,280
a mi ciudad natal,

2791
02:03:50,780 --> 02:03:52,220
incluso enseñando en Tulane,

2792
02:03:52,240 --> 02:03:53,620
lo cual no hago como un favor.

2793
02:03:53,820 --> 02:03:55,460
Lo disfruto muchísimo,

2794
02:03:55,940 --> 02:03:57,920
pero es como, está bien, soy parte de una comunidad.

2795
02:03:58,580 --> 02:04:03,260
Y creo que eso lo perdemos en Estados Unidos porque la gente que se siente sola se siente sola porque no está

2796
02:04:03,340 --> 02:04:04,220
parte de una comunidad.

2797
02:04:04,660 --> 02:04:06,260
Pero tengo a todos mis hijos de secundaria,

2798
02:04:06,640 --> 02:04:07,960
amigos, todos siguen en

2799
02:04:07,960 --> 02:04:08,360
Nueva Orleans.

2800
02:04:08,460 --> 02:04:10,080
tengo mi familia,

2801
02:04:10,160 --> 02:04:11,420
pero también tengo a Tulane,

2802
02:04:11,660 --> 02:04:13,020
instituciones en Nueva Orleans que

2803
02:04:13,020 --> 02:04:13,940
He estado allí desde siempre.

2804
02:04:14,800 --> 02:04:18,380
Y si puedo involucrarme para ayudar al sistema escolar de Nueva Orleans,

2805
02:04:18,760 --> 02:04:21,500
de ayudar a los programas de empoderamiento juvenil,

2806
02:04:22,200 --> 02:04:24,800
de ayudar al centro de innovación de Tulane,

2807
02:04:25,280 --> 02:04:27,200
Incluso estuve en la comisión de planificación de la ciudad,

2808
02:04:27,260 --> 02:04:29,000
que se preocupa por las ordenanzas de zonificación

2809
02:04:29,020 --> 02:04:30,940
para alquileres a corto plazo,

2810
02:04:31,900 --> 02:04:32,680
ya sabes, imagínate.

2811
02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:33,860
Pero fue como, no,

2812
02:04:34,280 --> 02:04:36,580
sumergirme en mi comunidad porque mi comunidad

2813
02:04:37,780 --> 02:04:39,900
fue tan increíblemente bueno

2814
02:04:40,260 --> 02:04:42,860
al permitirme convertirme en quien me convertí

2815
02:04:42,890 --> 02:04:49,120
y tiene problemas año tras año, huracán tras huracán,

2816
02:04:49,740 --> 02:04:53,220
asegurándonos de que cada nueva generación pueda ser creativa.

2817
02:04:53,760 --> 02:04:57,880
Y es una ciudad de creatividad, desde el jazz hasta la comida y la arquitectura.

2818
02:04:58,460 --> 02:05:00,160
Entonces, cuando pienso en

2819
02:05:00,700 --> 02:05:01,760
No diré legado,

2820
02:05:01,860 --> 02:05:04,100
¿Pero qué voy a hacer para pagarlo?

2821
02:05:04,180 --> 02:05:04,820
Cual es

2822
02:05:05,420 --> 02:05:07,680
una forma de nivel inferior de decir legado.

2823
02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:11,920
Lo pago hacia adelante volviendo al lugar donde comencé

2824
02:05:11,920 --> 02:05:13,580
y tratando de saberlo por primera vez.

2825
02:05:15,680 --> 02:05:18,880
Esa fue una copia de una línea de TS Eliot.

2826
02:05:19,120 --> 02:05:21,160
No quiero que pienses que pensé en eso.

2827
02:05:22,640 --> 02:05:24,140
Cita siempre tus fuentes,

2828
02:05:24,140 --> 02:05:24,800
Te lo agradezco.

2829
02:05:24,820 --> 02:05:29,040
TS Eliot, si alguna vez necesitas resolverlo, los cuatro cuartetos,

2830
02:05:29,380 --> 02:05:30,700
esa parte al final,

2831
02:05:30,940 --> 02:05:32,960
es decir, no dejaremos de explorar.

2832
02:05:33,540 --> 02:05:36,060
Y el fin de toda nuestra exploración será

2833
02:05:36,060 --> 02:05:39,120
volver al lugar donde empezamos y conocerlo por primera vez

2834
02:05:39,940 --> 02:05:42,420
a través de la puerta desconocida pero medio recordada.

2835
02:05:42,660 --> 02:05:43,580
Es simplemente hermoso.

2836
02:05:44,040 --> 02:05:47,460
Y eso ha sido una inspiración para

2837
02:05:49,180 --> 02:05:52,060
Que es lo que haces en,

2838
02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:54,720
Supongo que si es una obra de Shakespeare,

2839
02:05:54,880 --> 02:05:56,000
Lo llamarías acto cinco.

2840
02:05:57,220 --> 02:05:59,920
Bueno, vuelves al lugar de donde viniste y

2841
02:06:01,080 --> 02:06:03,960
no te quedes ahí preocupándote por el legado,

2842
02:06:04,160 --> 02:06:05,320
pero te sentarás ahí diciendo,

2843
02:06:05,620 --> 02:06:06,340
¿Cómo me aseguro?

2844
02:06:06,340 --> 02:06:07,680
que alguien más puede tener

2845
02:06:09,240 --> 02:06:10,120
un magico

2846
02:06:10,720 --> 02:06:12,540
¿Trayectoria que comienza en Nueva Orleans?

2847
02:06:14,120 --> 02:06:17,500
Bueno, para mí eres uno de los mejores narradores de todos los tiempos.

2848
02:06:18,000 --> 02:06:19,320
He sido un gran admirador.

2849
02:06:19,380 --> 02:06:21,340
Definitivamente no es cierto, pero es muy amable de tu parte.

2850
02:06:21,400 --> 02:06:23,380
Mira, puedes ser... Interrumpiendo brutalmente.

2851
02:06:26,870 --> 02:06:28,760
Creo

2852
02:06:29,640 --> 02:06:31,000
probablemente Ben Franklin,

2853
02:06:32,080 --> 02:06:33,120
así que durante no sé cuántos años,

2854
02:06:33,160 --> 02:06:36,500
15 años, Einstein hasta el día de hoy,

2855
02:06:36,820 --> 02:06:38,320
Simplemente soy un gran admirador tuyo.

2856
02:06:38,460 --> 02:06:41,270
Y eres una de las personas que pensé seguramente

2857
02:06:41,880 --> 02:06:44,940
no se rebajarían a aparecer

2858
02:06:44,940 --> 02:06:46,840
y tener una conversación conmigo.

2859
02:06:47,780 --> 02:06:49,820
Y es simplemente un regalo gigante para mí.

2860
02:06:49,840 --> 02:06:53,620
Oye, volé a Austin para esto porque soy un gran admirador.

2861
02:06:54,240 --> 02:06:55,460
y sobre todo un gran admirador

2862
02:06:55,460 --> 02:06:57,240
porque tomas a la gente en serio

2863
02:06:57,820 --> 02:06:58,260
y te importa.

2864
02:06:59,040 --> 02:07:00,300
Gracias mil veces.

2865
02:07:00,500 --> 02:07:03,180
Gracias por respetarme y por inspirarme.

2866
02:07:03,180 --> 02:07:04,720
millones de personas con tus historias.

2867
02:07:04,980 --> 02:07:07,400
De nuevo, una narración increíble, un ser humano increíble.

2868
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:09,200
Y gracias por hablar hoy.

2869
02:07:09,480 --> 02:07:10,020
Gracias, Alex.

2870
02:07:11,160 --> 02:07:14,900
Gracias por escuchar esta conversación con Walter Isaacson para apoyar este podcast.

2871
02:07:15,200 --> 02:07:17,520
Consulte nuestros patrocinadores en la descripción.

2872
02:07:18,060 --> 02:07:20,060
Y ahora déjame dejarte con

2873
02:07:20,060 --> 02:07:21,800
Una de mis citas favoritas de Carl Jung.

2874
02:07:23,020 --> 02:07:24,080
La gente hará cualquier cosa

2875
02:07:24,940 --> 02:07:26,080
no importa lo absurdo que sea,

2876
02:07:26,540 --> 02:07:28,680
para evitar enfrentarse a sus propias almas.

2877
02:07:29,880 --> 02:07:32,740
Uno no se ilumina imaginando figuras de luz,

2878
02:07:33,560 --> 02:07:36,140
sino haciendo consciente la oscuridad.

2879
02:07:37,280 --> 02:07:38,720
Gracias por escuchar y esperar.

2880
02:07:38,820 --> 02:07:40,240
Para verte la próxima vez.

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